Innovative things with Vanguard.....not that many, but many features that have evolved, and also some that they have taken from the old school (where the newer games such as WoW and EQ2 have simplified them).
So, new to Vanguard.
- Perception system. To my knowledge, never been implemented before. With it, you can learn things from mobs, your skill in it will determine how you can counter mobs (ie: reflect their attack back, turn an offensive spell against you into a buff, lower the effect of their attack etc), and also if there are many mobs, your perception skill will aid you in protecting several people (IE: you can see if someone is about to attack your cleric and then chose to utilize the next round to block the attack.
- Boat construction and travel (also done in part in UO). Where you will have coast vessels as well as ocean vessels. Constructed by players and driven by players.
- Diplomacy. In a mmorpg, not been done to this level. Cities are their dungeons and can be used to get places others can't (IE : locked door, no key, talk guard into letting you in).
- Advanced Encounter System (AES): Separate dungeon crawl missions for your group. These can be activated in many different ways. (in one interview with some devs, they triggered one, and had no real clue as to what triggered it).
Not that many "new" features. However, as in evolved features.
- Start simple. The music. No game has done it to this level. Expect 3gb of music at launch, and it's not like WoW or EQ2 where you have one tune for separate areas, but more a mix match, with different tones and ways it is played depending on many things (seasons, day/night, your health, partys health, your faction, etc). As in, they are trying to create music to add to the game instead of either doing it in a boring way that you will turn off, or hardly doing it at all (WoW). Also the sounds are made better. The engine checks for instance to see what weapon you are using, and what surface it is hitting, and in what angle, and how hard. (IE: If you are hitting the shell of a turtle, it will not give the same sound over and over)
- Combat system. Much more unified combat. Think EQ2s Heroic Opportunities only made better. The perception system also comes into this. You spot that the tank is about to knockback the mob, you queue up a hamstring attack, tank sees this, ques up a slash upwards towards the head, rogue sees this and receives an opening for a critical backstab.... etc, etc. Combat is no longer "auto attack, afk getting a soda".
- Weather system. It will affect seasons, it will affect players (wind will make boats go faster, hot environments can "acclimate" the players giving them heat resistance, cold environment = cold), also possibilities of effecting your spells in various ways.
- 3 spheres. All usable at any time. 3 spheres 3 different classes (+ harvesting sphere, tied to adventure/crafting). All item centric, as in no longer is "tradeskilling" something purely skill based like every other game. But now also has item acquisition. Same for diplomacy. (This is a slight downgrade/upgrade of FFXI's job system, where any char could be any class. In Vanguard it is limited to one main class in either sphere).
- Player cities. Craftable houses, tradeskill places, etc. This might later be tied in with diplomacy for upkeep of NPC guards and the likes.
- Small but nice feature. Every name will be checked by GMs. No more "Legolaaas" "Gandalf0rz" etc. You might bypass the original namefilter, but your name will also be checked by a real person. If it's not in tune with a fantasy name, or a blatant copyright infraction, you will have to change it.
- Another small, yet nice feature. Mobs will no longer drop "unnatural" items. Such as bears will not drop swords, and a warrior will not drop a wizards cloak. Items are tied in with the type of creature/npc they are.
What they have gone back from if you compare to newer mmorpgs
- Death penalty actually matters again. No longer will the world be your oyster, but actually be a world. In my opinion, without a death that matters, there will be no world that matters. No respect for the environment will yield no respect for the mobs, no respect for the items, and in turn will yield no attachment to your character, which again is tied to retention. CRs are a part of this (and also builds community)
- No instant clicky/afk fast travel. (Teleportation in dungeons will be there, like CoH etc). This is so that the world will actually matter again. Localized economies will spring up. Travel will not be something you do every day in Vanguard unlike any other mmorpg out there. Where every quest basically sends you across the world. A whole lot of Vanguards system is built around this (economy, weather, drops)
- No instances. (yay). A world should be a world. It should not create small pocket universes for you at your leisure.
So yes. There are some similarities to the Old EQ. It is a "realistic" look world, not a specialized look like WoW. It has gone back to the roots of a harsher death penalty. Travel will not be a zip zip sort of thing. But you also have many features that are unique to Vanguard, and some where the idea is not unique but the implementation of it is.
But the main part I like about Vanguard and Sigil, it is that they are finally not afraid to break the current trend of making everything easier. They are making the game they want to play, and if you don't like it, well.... "Sorry, this game might not be for you". I see no reason why everyone has to make everything simplified. Drops, death penalties, quests..... If the game doesn't offer any challenges, then there will be no sense of reward, so why on earth would you play it.
I had more affection for my first gotten bag in EQ than any item gotten from EQ2 or WoW. I remember getting it. I worked hard for it. This was now over 5 years ago. I want that feeling back. I want the feeling of challenge and risk back. I want to see a mob and think "EEEK" instead of thinking "Meh. If he comes, I'll just rez and come back".
[quote]Originally posted by Droigan [b]Sigh. First post in the forums here, but oh well. Innovative things with Vanguard.....not that many, but many features that have evolved, and also some that they have taken from the old school (where the newer games such as WoW and EQ2 have simplified them). So, new to Vanguard. - Perception system. To my knowledge, never been implemented before. With it, you can learn things from mobs, your skill in it will determine how you can counter mobs (ie: reflect their attack back, turn an offensive spell against you into a buff, lower the effect of their attack etc), and also if there are many mobs, your perception skill will aid you in protecting several people (IE: you can see if someone is about to attack your cleric and then chose to utilize the next round to block the attack. - Boat construction and travel (also done in part in UO). Where you will have coast vessels as well as ocean vessels. Constructed by players and driven by players. - Diplomacy. In a mmorpg, not been done to this level. Cities are their dungeons and can be used to get places others can't (IE : locked door, no key, talk guard into letting you in). - Advanced Encounter System (AES): Separate dungeon crawl missions for your group. These can be activated in many different ways. (in one interview with some devs, they triggered one, and had no real clue as to what triggered it). Not that many "new" features. However, as in evolved features. - Start simple. The music. No game has done it to this level. Expect 3gb of music at launch, and it's not like WoW or EQ2 where you have one tune for separate areas, but more a mix match, with different tones and ways it is played depending on many things (seasons, day/night, your health, partys health, your faction, etc). As in, they are trying to create music to add to the game instead of either doing it in a boring way that you will turn off, or hardly doing it at all (WoW). Also the sounds are made better. The engine checks for instance to see what weapon you are using, and what surface it is hitting, and in what angle, and how hard. (IE: If you are hitting the shell of a turtle, it will not give the same sound over and over) - Combat system. Much more unified combat. Think EQ2s Heroic Opportunities only made better. The perception system also comes into this. You spot that the tank is about to knockback the mob, you queue up a hamstring attack, tank sees this, ques up a slash upwards towards the head, rogue sees this and receives an opening for a critical backstab.... etc, etc. Combat is no longer "auto attack, afk getting a soda". - Weather system. It will affect seasons, it will affect players (wind will make boats go faster, hot environments can "acclimate" the players giving them heat resistance, cold environment = cold), also possibilities of effecting your spells in various ways. - 3 spheres. All usable at any time. 3 spheres 3 different classes (+ harvesting sphere, tied to adventure/crafting). All item centric, as in no longer is "tradeskilling" something purely skill based like every other game. But now also has item acquisition. Same for diplomacy. (This is a slight downgrade/upgrade of FFXI's job system, where any char could be any class. In Vanguard it is limited to one main class in either sphere). - Player cities. Craftable houses, tradeskill places, etc. This might later be tied in with diplomacy for upkeep of NPC guards and the likes. - Small but nice feature. Every name will be checked by GMs. No more "Legolaaas" "Gandalf0rz" etc. You might bypass the original namefilter, but your name will also be checked by a real person. If it's not in tune with a fantasy name, or a blatant copyright infraction, you will have to change it. - Another small, yet nice feature. Mobs will no longer drop "unnatural" items. Such as bears will not drop swords, and a warrior will not drop a wizards cloak. Items are tied in with the type of creature/npc they are. What they have gone back from if you compare to newer mmorpgs - Death penalty actually matters again. No longer will the world be your oyster, but actually be a world. In my opinion, without a death that matters, there will be no world that matters. No respect for the environment will yield no respect for the mobs, no respect for the items, and in turn will yield no attachment to your character, which again is tied to retention. CRs are a part of this (and also builds community) - No instant clicky/afk fast travel. (Teleportation in dungeons will be there, like CoH etc). This is so that the world will actually matter again. Localized economies will spring up. Travel will not be something you do every day in Vanguard unlike any other mmorpg out there. Where every quest basically sends you across the world. A whole lot of Vanguards system is built around this (economy, weather, drops) - No instances. (yay). A world should be a world. It should not create small pocket universes for you at your leisure.
So yes. There are some similarities to the Old EQ. It is a "realistic" look world, not a specialized look like WoW. It has gone back to the roots of a harsher death penalty. Travel will not be a zip zip sort of thing. But you also have many features that are unique to Vanguard, and some where the idea is not unique but the implementation of it is. But the main part I like about Vanguard and Sigil, it is that they are finally not afraid to break the current trend of making everything easier. They are making the game they want to play, and if you don't like it, well.... "Sorry, this game might not be for you". I see no reason why everyone has to make everything simplified. Drops, death penalties, quests..... If the game doesn't offer any challenges, then there will be no sense of reward, so why on earth would you play it. I had more affection for my first gotten bag in EQ than any item gotten from EQ2 or WoW. I remember getting it. I worked hard for it. This was now over 5 years ago. I want that feeling back. I want the feeling of challenge and risk back. I want to see a mob and think "EEEK" instead of thinking "Meh. If he comes, I'll just rez and come back". Read : [url=http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php] It's the best faq regarding Vanguard.[/b][/quote]
great first post my friend
let me reiterate because now thinking about it i might have been misunderstood. when i say "eq1 with new features" i am not saying it will be innovative and that those features are not used by other mmorpg's. what i mean is new features that eq1 didn't have, sorry for the confusion but i still never said vanguard wasn't a eq1 clone because clearly it is
Originally posted by angerr let me reiterate because now thinking about it i might have been misunderstood. when i say "eq1 with new features" i am not saying it will be innovative and that those features are not used by other mmorpg's. what i mean is new features that eq1 didn't have, sorry for the confusion but i still never said vanguard wasn't a eq1 clone because clearly it is
my bad for not really understanding you, I do hope this title brings more to the table, but as what I have read so far, it dosn't seem so, eh time will tell that's for sure. So as well, I appologize for the miss-understanding on my part as well.
BTW, your sig is awsome
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Originally posted by chaintm Originally posted by angerr let me reiterate because now thinking about it i might have been misunderstood. when i say "eq1 with new features" i am not saying it will be innovative and that those features are not used by other mmorpg's. what i mean is new features that eq1 didn't have, sorry for the confusion but i still never said vanguard wasn't a eq1 clone because clearly it is my bad for not really understanding you, I do hope this title brings more to the table, but as what I have read so far, it dosn't seem so, eh time will tell that's for sure. So as well, I appologize for the miss-understanding on my part as well.
BTW, your sig is awsome
it is np man, i went back and read my posts and i can see why it looked as if i was misleading you. and i am well aware vanguard will not be for everyone, especially those that want a change from the eq style of gameplay that many games have adopted.
Originally posted by boboslave Originally posted by angerr i still never said vanguard wasn't a eq1 clone because clearly it is
What makes it 'clearly' a clone?
I never played EQ so not sure what makes people think that playing Vanguard will be just like playing EQ+Stuff.
just the way they have described it in their FAQ, they even mention that it has similarity's, trust me it is not a bad thing if you like pve. pretty much all fantasy rpg's have got alot of similar things to eq, but also the people that designed eq are the same that are designing vanguard.
i could give you better more detailed answers to your question but kinda tired ATM
Originally posted by Droigan But the main part I like about Vanguard and Sigil, it is that they are finally not afraid to break the current trend of making everything easier. They are making the game they want to play, and if you don't like it, well.... "Sorry, this game might not be for you". I see no reason why everyone has to make everything simplified. Drops, death penalties, quests..... If the game doesn't offer any challenges, then there will be no sense of reward, so why on earth would you play it.
I loved your whole post, but this is REALLY what I want to emphisize. It's a shame that the only people that will actually take the time to read it are the people that are already convinced.
Originally posted by zethcarn As if they don't realize that their biggest competitor, World of Warcraft, now has 5 million (yes 5) subscribers and they need to allow a little room for casual play.
Brad already said they are not making Vanguard just to have a million subscribers. He could of retired after EQ but he wanted to do it again. He wanted to make a game and fix his previous mistakes. He wanted to make a game that will satisfy the "core" gamer that he knows still exsist, the players who can commit a few hours a night and maybe 5-6 hours on the weekend. That's the audience he is targeting with Vanguard.
Vanguard is not being designed to have 5,000,000 subscribers. It's being designed to bring The Vision back to life.
Just another thought, how many people blow through "casual" play games get bored and leave to try somethibg else?? If they dont leave they make like 8 alts get them all to max lvl then finnaly leave or start spamming boards that there isnt enough end game content. Sigil is just trying bring back the type of game that players do not bore easily nor do they eat up content with ease. They want the game to be a challange, and to bring back risk vs reward.
SOME of the dev team came from EQ, and moved to set up Sigil with Brad McQaid. However they have devs from several other games too. It's the name "Brad McQuaid" that has lead so many to believe it to be the true EQ2, or whatever. However Brad himself is influenced by numerous mmos, including UO, and many newer ones.
SOME of the people that post on the official forums are die hard, old school EQ players, that quit shortly after SOE took over and ruined "their" game, as they see it. They give the impression, if you read the forums, that Vanguard will be the "true" EQ2, but many of them will be disapointed.
Vanguard may end up being closer in style to EQ than, say, WoW, but nowhere near it in truth, possibly upseting the old school EQers AND the more recent WoW type gamers.
One thing it won't be is a clone of EQ. Not even WoW is that, although some parts of the game MIGHT be.
It will have the spirit of EQ, and that is the most important thing. It will have "The Vision" which EQ quickly lost after Brad left. It will be guided by "The Vision" of a gamer on how a game should be made instead of the vision of a corporation on how money should be made. And that is the one thing the old EQ players miss the most. A game with soul and (no matter how many hated it at the time) "The Vision."
Originally posted by Finduilas SOME of the dev team came from EQ, and moved to set up Sigil with Brad McQaid. However they have devs from several other games too. It's the name "Brad McQuaid" that has lead so many to believe it to be the true EQ2, or whatever. However Brad himself is influenced by numerous mmos, including UO, and many newer ones. SOME of the people that post on the official forums are die hard, old school EQ players, that quit shortly after SOE took over and ruined "their" game, as they see it. They give the impression, if you read the forums, that Vanguard will be the "true" EQ2, but many of them will be disapointed. Vanguard may end up being closer in style to EQ than, say, WoW, but nowhere near it in truth, possibly upseting the old school EQers AND the more recent WoW type gamers. One thing it won't be is a clone of EQ. Not even WoW is that, although some parts of the game MIGHT be.
well i don't think anybody knows exactly how it is going to be, but from what i have read it will be alot like eq1 pre kunark.
as far as calling it a eq clone or not, well it depends if you are saying it wont be exactly like eq1 then yeah i would agree. but it will be alot like eq more so than wow or any other game, maybe even more than eq2(except the lore ofcource)
will the old skool eq players be upset with vanguard? that remains to be seen. i really hope not, all i have to say is if vanguard has the same vision and feel as eq1 did when i first started out.....look out! lol
Originally posted by n2sooners It will have the spirit of EQ, and that is the most important thing. It will have "The Vision" which EQ quickly lost after Brad left. It will be guided by "The Vision" of a gamer on how a game should be made instead of the vision of a corporation on how money should be made. And that is the one thing the old EQ players miss the most. A game with soul and (no matter how many hated it at the time) "The Vision."
I disagree. It will have the "Vision" mark 2. Not the original Vision of EQ, but it's own vision. Why? Brad himself has stated many, many times, in the FAQs, and on the forums, that the original vision of EQ was flawed. There was a gulf between the planning of the game and the implementation.
Just one example was the long travel times. Brad wanted the world to feel big, to have communities spread out all over, and have the journey itself as an experience. However the long travel times in the end became a grind, that it is, something you did over and over to accomplish a goal. They became tedious, and were nothing more than down time between the fun side of the game.
Now SOME older EQers WANT the long travel time to come back, AND want the tedium. There are also SOME players that want quick, EASY travel, as in WoW. Brad however has stated many times that the long travel times were ok in EQ, and as planned, but the tedium was not part of the plan. He has stated that the solution was NOT to trivialise travel, not to make it shorter, but to make it more interesting.
In others words, retain long travel times, not get rid of any tedium involved.
Unfortunately many players just assume that Vanguard will be a carbon copy of EQ with better graphics and some tweaks and additions. They have blinkers on and simply refuse to open their minds. Sigil plan to implement the "Vision" of EQ, but in the form of "Vision 1.2" tailored to the new game. And I have no doubt that if Sigil see a feature in WoW, or EQ2 that they like, and will improve Vanguard, whilst not "dumbing down", or diluting the new vision, then they will add it.
A lot of the ideas in EQ2 came from Brad and Co (and WoW stole many ideas from EQ2) but may not have been implemented as they wanted. Vangaurd is the chance to do it right.
Originally posted by angerr will the old skool eq players be upset with vanguard? that remains to be seen.
Actually some already are upset. there are several old schoolers that want death to really mean something, as in EQ. So when you die, they want you have to run back to find and loot your corpse, with little or even no help. They think you should just remember where you were, look around, and make your way back. Even if it takes you two hours to find our corpse, which turns out to be stuck almost entirely insde an object, making it very hard to see.
They absolutely hate the idea of the "golden cord" which will aid you in finding your corpse. They have whined and cried like babies, and railed against Brad and co for adding such a "carebear" feature, accused Sigil of selling out to big business, dumbing down the game, catering to the WoW kiddies.
Brad even posted in a thread, several times, to refute their childess complaints, declaring that having beta tested the game for weeks they determined that the cord was absolutely essential. Yet one player, who has not even tested the game, claimed that Brad was just a BAD player, and that he, the player, WOULD be able to find his corpse with no problems.
Vanguard will be like EQ in the same way a portrait is like the subject. But the style of the painting may not suit ALL tastes.
Originally posted by Finduilas Originally posted by angerr will the old skool eq players be upset with vanguard? that remains to be seen. Actually some already are upset. there are several old schoolers that want death to really mean something, as in EQ. So when you die, they want you have to run back to find and loot your corpse, with little or even no help. They think you should just remember where you were, look around, and make your way back. Even if it takes you two hours to find our corpse, which turns out to be stuck almost entirely insde an object, making it very hard to see. They absolutely hate the idea of the "golden cord" which will aid you in finding your corpse. They have whined and cried like babies, and railed against Brad and co for adding such a "carebear" feature, accused Sigil of selling out to big business, dumbing down the game, catering to the WoW kiddies. Brad even posted in a thread, several times, to refute their childess complaints, declaring that having beta tested the game for weeks they determined that the cord was absolutely essential. Yet one player, who has not even tested the game, claimed that Brad was just a BAD player, and that he, the player, WOULD be able to find his corpse with no problems. Vanguard will be like EQ in the same way a portrait is like the subject. But the style of the painting may not suit ALL tastes.
well you cant make everyone happy my friend, there does need to be a harsh death penalty but searching for your corpse for hours on end is kinda ridiculous. people will always complain no matter what, some people just wont be happy.
and believe me i know lol, when i first played eq i adventured off into everfrost and got killed....i spent (this is not an exaggeration) 4-6 hours looking for my corpse. i found it once only to get killed again, this frustrated me so much i gave up and quit the game only to have several of my friends talk me into playing the game again(true story).
there needs to be some way to find your corpse IMO, it wont make the game any easier just easier to find your corpse. now getting to your corpse and actually being able to loot it is a whole different story entirely.
This is what I just don't get about this community; Looking back over this thread, and the 100s like it, why the hell, if the game doesn't interest you, do you have to hang around and bitch and moan and make a general ass of yourself in that game's forums.
Same deal with a lot of DDO threads. Omfg, if you don't like instancing, good. Now f**k off! And it's the same here. And with many other games. If a hardcore, 'grindfest' ala EQ1 redux doesn't interest you, good. And f**k off.
It's the bane of this community, most constructive conversations get overtaken with people bitching and moaning about a game they have no f**k'n idea about, and no f**k'n interest in playing.
So again, just f**k off!
[Edit: Ahhh.. sorry, but that feels better ]
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
Originally posted by Arremus This is what I just don't get about this community;Looking back over this thread, and the 100s like it, why the hell, if the game doesn't interest you, do you have to hang around and bitch and moan and make a general ass of yourself in that game's forums.Same deal with a lot of DDO threads. Omfg, if you don't like instancing, good. Now f**k off!And it's the same here. And with many other games.If a hardcore, 'grindfest' ala EQ1 redux doesn't interest you, good. And f**k off.It's the bane of this community, most constructive conversations get overtaken with people bitching and moaning about a game they have no f**k'n idea about, and no f**k'n interest in playing.So again, just f**k off!
Well if you are the lazy spoiled wow type player then I suggest that where you go. Brad at Sigil as stated they are looking for 5 million subscribers. They are looking at maintaining EQ1 number for a period of 5-7 years. That comes to an average of 350,000 to 450,000 on a monthly basis. They are not going to cater to the Lazy crowd who want everything handed to them.
And no this is not a EQ clone. If you took the time to read all the devs post and feature you would see that. But go play your little wow kiddy game LOL and be happy with making level 60 in 3 months. WWOOOW what a challange..
Originally posted by Arremus This is what I just don't get about this community; Looking back over this thread, and the 100s like it, why the hell, if the game doesn't interest you, do you have to hang around and bitch and moan and make a general ass of yourself in that game's forums.
Same deal with a lot of DDO threads. Omfg, if you don't like instancing, good. Now f**k off! And it's the same here. And with many other games. If a hardcore, 'grindfest' ala EQ1 redux doesn't interest you, good. And f**k off.
It's the bane of this community, most constructive conversations get overtaken with people bitching and moaning about a game they have no f**k'n idea about, and no f**k'n interest in playing.
So again, just f**k off!
[Edit: Ahhh.. sorry, but that feels better ]
I agree 110%. The DDO threads about instancing is the worst. If you dont like a game and are not gonna play then leave the people who want to alone
I agree 110%. The DDO threads about instancing is the worst. If you dont like a game and are not gonna play then leave the people who want to alone
First, it works both ways. If you like a game shut up and play it or wait for it to come out. Quit telling everyone who thinks it sucks how great it is.
Second, this is a discussion forum, this is where people discuss differing views. There wouldn't be much sense of a forum if they just looked like this: DDO Is great Yep Yep Yep Yep
If you can't handle people with differing views, maybe you should find a new hobby.
I agree 110%. The DDO threads about instancing is the worst. If you dont like a game and are not gonna play then leave the people who want to alone
First, it works both ways. If you like a game shut up and play it or wait for it to come out. Quit telling everyone who thinks it sucks how great it is.
Second, this is a discussion forum, this is where people discuss differing views. There wouldn't be much sense of a forum if they just looked like this: DDO Is great Yep Yep Yep Yep
If you can't handle people with differing views, maybe you should find a new hobby.
Did i miss something here?? I really dont see anywhere in that where i downed anyone elses opinion. The only thing that i was agreeing with was the pointlessness of spamming a forum of a game that you have no interest in. As a matter of fact i welcome differing opinions and have had mine changed more than once buy listening to someone else. The forums are here to dicuss opinion and its a great tool for Devs to use in makeing a MMO. And i do not try to convince the world that the game i like is the best one or the only game out there, i just give my opinion and if you agree cool, if not thats cool to. Ive liked and agreed with alot of your posts Jod, so ease off the flameing and save it for the fanboi or another flamer and lets be friends
I agree 110%. The DDO threads about instancing is the worst. If you dont like a game and are not gonna play then leave the people who want to alone
Did i miss something here?? I really dont see anywhere in that where i downed anyone elses opinion.
It sounded like you were asking people not to post negative opinions about a game. If that wasn't what you meant than I apologize.
The only thing that i was agreeing with was the pointlessness of spamming a forum of a game that you have no interest in.
I will not be buying DDO, but I still post there. I don't start threads to specifically bash the game, if someone starts a thread, I'll post my opinion, just like the person that started the thread did.
As far as being pointless, well of course it's pointless, you don't get much more pointless than arguing about a video game. I saw a signature once that said: "Arguing about a Video Game is sort of like the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded." I try to keep that in mind when I post, but it doesn't always help.
As a matter of fact i welcome differing opinions and have had mine changed more than once buy listening to someone else. The forums are here to dicuss opinion and its a great tool for Devs to use in makeing a MMO. And i do not try to convince the world that the game i like is the best one or the only game out there, i just give my opinion and if you agree cool, if not thats cool to.
Again, that's not what it sounded like to me. If I misunderstood, I apologize.
Ive liked and agreed with alot of your posts Jod, so ease off the flameing and save it for the fanboi or another flamer and lets be friends
LOL. Sorry, it's sort of like Baseball, you're only as good as your last post . I don't typically look too closely at the name.
Wepps and I used to fight a lot on the SWG forums. I didn't/don't hate him (heck I don't even know him), and I didn't go out of my way to argue with his posts. He just said a lot I didn't agree with and I felt he contridicted himself a lot. Lately, I don't konw if I've learned his style, or he's changed the way he posts, but while I didn't agree with what he said, he supported facts with evidence, and qualified what was opinion as his opinion, something I didn't see him do when we were arguing.
So I don't "go after" anyone, just like I don't support anyone.
One theme that stands out for me is players from the original EQ looking for an MMO that will duplicate the gaming experience they had when they first entered the gaming universe of Everquest.
I don't think any MMO can duplicate the experience of playing our very first MMO, that experience is a one time only revelation.
My first and only MMO was WoW. Having no other MMO to compare it to I would say it was among the greatest gaming experiences I ever had. However, I do see why players would say the game was too easy. Leveling was fun but mostly an under challenged experience. I played as a casual gamer with zero experience with the genre and blew through the game in about 9 months. Well, by that I mean I pretty much did everything I wanted to do, and saw all I wanted to see, and experienced most of the gameplay that was there to experience. To stick around any longer would have meant grouping and playing a series of dungeon crawls or repetitive PvP raids. As much as I enjoyed the game there is no way I could stick with it for months on end doing that kind of stuff. Basically when I ran out of PvE content I was done with the game. Grouping and running instances was fun but not something that holds my gaming interest indefinitely.
Vanguard is something I am looking forward to along with a couple other MMOs I consider promising. I am looking for an alternative to World of Warcraft. Something with deeper and more challenging PvE content. PvP is fine too but for me it is just one aspect of a complete MMO. PvP combat gameplay alone is too narrow to carry my interest for months on end. Ditto for grouping and instance running. I guess what I am looking for is an immersible universe with lots of PvE content. A seamless world with loads of exploration, discovery and challenge, both in the solo sense and the grouping sense.
Comments
Sigh.
First post in the forums here, but oh well.
Innovative things with Vanguard.....not that many, but many features that have evolved, and also some that they have taken from the old school (where the newer games such as WoW and EQ2 have simplified them).
So, new to Vanguard.
- Perception system. To my knowledge, never been implemented before. With it, you can learn things from mobs, your skill in it will determine how you can counter mobs (ie: reflect their attack back, turn an offensive spell against you into a buff, lower the effect of their attack etc), and also if there are many mobs, your perception skill will aid you in protecting several people (IE: you can see if someone is about to attack your cleric and then chose to utilize the next round to block the attack.
- Boat construction and travel (also done in part in UO). Where you will have coast vessels as well as ocean vessels. Constructed by players and driven by players.
- Diplomacy. In a mmorpg, not been done to this level. Cities are their dungeons and can be used to get places others can't (IE : locked door, no key, talk guard into letting you in).
- Advanced Encounter System (AES): Separate dungeon crawl missions for your group. These can be activated in many different ways. (in one interview with some devs, they triggered one, and had no real clue as to what triggered it).
Not that many "new" features. However, as in evolved features.
- Start simple. The music. No game has done it to this level. Expect 3gb of music at launch, and it's not like WoW or EQ2 where you have one tune for separate areas, but more a mix match, with different tones and ways it is played depending on many things (seasons, day/night, your health, partys health, your faction, etc). As in, they are trying to create music to add to the game instead of either doing it in a boring way that you will turn off, or hardly doing it at all (WoW). Also the sounds are made better. The engine checks for instance to see what weapon you are using, and what surface it is hitting, and in what angle, and how hard. (IE: If you are hitting the shell of a turtle, it will not give the same sound over and over)
- Combat system. Much more unified combat. Think EQ2s Heroic Opportunities only made better. The perception system also comes into this. You spot that the tank is about to knockback the mob, you queue up a hamstring attack, tank sees this, ques up a slash upwards towards the head, rogue sees this and receives an opening for a critical backstab.... etc, etc. Combat is no longer "auto attack, afk getting a soda".
- Weather system. It will affect seasons, it will affect players (wind will make boats go faster, hot environments can "acclimate" the players giving them heat resistance, cold environment = cold), also possibilities of effecting your spells in various ways.
- 3 spheres. All usable at any time. 3 spheres 3 different classes (+ harvesting sphere, tied to adventure/crafting). All item centric, as in no longer is "tradeskilling" something purely skill based like every other game. But now also has item acquisition. Same for diplomacy. (This is a slight downgrade/upgrade of FFXI's job system, where any char could be any class. In Vanguard it is limited to one main class in either sphere).
- Player cities. Craftable houses, tradeskill places, etc. This might later be tied in with diplomacy for upkeep of NPC guards and the likes.
- Small but nice feature. Every name will be checked by GMs. No more "Legolaaas" "Gandalf0rz" etc. You might bypass the original namefilter, but your name will also be checked by a real person. If it's not in tune with a fantasy name, or a blatant copyright infraction, you will have to change it.
- Another small, yet nice feature. Mobs will no longer drop "unnatural" items. Such as bears will not drop swords, and a warrior will not drop a wizards cloak. Items are tied in with the type of creature/npc they are.
What they have gone back from if you compare to newer mmorpgs
- Death penalty actually matters again. No longer will the world be your oyster, but actually be a world. In my opinion, without a death that matters, there will be no world that matters. No respect for the environment will yield no respect for the mobs, no respect for the items, and in turn will yield no attachment to your character, which again is tied to retention. CRs are a part of this (and also builds community)
- No instant clicky/afk fast travel. (Teleportation in dungeons will be there, like CoH etc). This is so that the world will actually matter again. Localized economies will spring up. Travel will not be something you do every day in Vanguard unlike any other mmorpg out there. Where every quest basically sends you across the world. A whole lot of Vanguards system is built around this (economy, weather, drops)
- No instances. (yay). A world should be a world. It should not create small pocket universes for you at your leisure.
So yes. There are some similarities to the Old EQ. It is a "realistic" look world, not a specialized look like WoW. It has gone back to the roots of a harsher death penalty. Travel will not be a zip zip sort of thing. But you also have many features that are unique to Vanguard, and some where the idea is not unique but the implementation of it is.
But the main part I like about Vanguard and Sigil, it is that they are finally not afraid to break the current trend of making everything easier. They are making the game they want to play, and if you don't like it, well.... "Sorry, this game might not be for you". I see no reason why everyone has to make everything simplified. Drops, death penalties, quests..... If the game doesn't offer any challenges, then there will be no sense of reward, so why on earth would you play it.
I had more affection for my first gotten bag in EQ than any item gotten from EQ2 or WoW. I remember getting it. I worked hard for it. This was now over 5 years ago. I want that feeling back. I want the feeling of challenge and risk back. I want to see a mob and think "EEEK" instead of thinking "Meh. If he comes, I'll just rez and come back".
Read : http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php
It's the best faq regarding Vanguard.
[quote]Originally posted by Droigan
[b]Sigh.
First post in the forums here, but oh well.
Innovative things with Vanguard.....not that many, but many features that have evolved, and also some that they have taken from the old school (where the newer games such as WoW and EQ2 have simplified them).
So, new to Vanguard.
- Perception system. To my knowledge, never been implemented before. With it, you can learn things from mobs, your skill in it will determine how you can counter mobs (ie: reflect their attack back, turn an offensive spell against you into a buff, lower the effect of their attack etc), and also if there are many mobs, your perception skill will aid you in protecting several people (IE: you can see if someone is about to attack your cleric and then chose to utilize the next round to block the attack.
- Boat construction and travel (also done in part in UO). Where you will have coast vessels as well as ocean vessels. Constructed by players and driven by players.
- Diplomacy. In a mmorpg, not been done to this level. Cities are their dungeons and can be used to get places others can't (IE : locked door, no key, talk guard into letting you in).
- Advanced Encounter System (AES): Separate dungeon crawl missions for your group. These can be activated in many different ways. (in one interview with some devs, they triggered one, and had no real clue as to what triggered it).
Not that many "new" features. However, as in evolved features.
- Start simple. The music. No game has done it to this level. Expect 3gb of music at launch, and it's not like WoW or EQ2 where you have one tune for separate areas, but more a mix match, with different tones and ways it is played depending on many things (seasons, day/night, your health, partys health, your faction, etc). As in, they are trying to create music to add to the game instead of either doing it in a boring way that you will turn off, or hardly doing it at all (WoW). Also the sounds are made better. The engine checks for instance to see what weapon you are using, and what surface it is hitting, and in what angle, and how hard. (IE: If you are hitting the shell of a turtle, it will not give the same sound over and over)
- Combat system. Much more unified combat. Think EQ2s Heroic Opportunities only made better. The perception system also comes into this. You spot that the tank is about to knockback the mob, you queue up a hamstring attack, tank sees this, ques up a slash upwards towards the head, rogue sees this and receives an opening for a critical backstab.... etc, etc. Combat is no longer "auto attack, afk getting a soda".
- Weather system. It will affect seasons, it will affect players (wind will make boats go faster, hot environments can "acclimate" the players giving them heat resistance, cold environment = cold), also possibilities of effecting your spells in various ways.
- 3 spheres. All usable at any time. 3 spheres 3 different classes (+ harvesting sphere, tied to adventure/crafting). All item centric, as in no longer is "tradeskilling" something purely skill based like every other game. But now also has item acquisition. Same for diplomacy. (This is a slight downgrade/upgrade of FFXI's job system, where any char could be any class. In Vanguard it is limited to one main class in either sphere).
- Player cities. Craftable houses, tradeskill places, etc. This might later be tied in with diplomacy for upkeep of NPC guards and the likes.
- Small but nice feature. Every name will be checked by GMs. No more "Legolaaas" "Gandalf0rz" etc. You might bypass the original namefilter, but your name will also be checked by a real person. If it's not in tune with a fantasy name, or a blatant copyright infraction, you will have to change it.
- Another small, yet nice feature. Mobs will no longer drop "unnatural" items. Such as bears will not drop swords, and a warrior will not drop a wizards cloak. Items are tied in with the type of creature/npc they are.
What they have gone back from if you compare to newer mmorpgs
- Death penalty actually matters again. No longer will the world be your oyster, but actually be a world. In my opinion, without a death that matters, there will be no world that matters. No respect for the environment will yield no respect for the mobs, no respect for the items, and in turn will yield no attachment to your character, which again is tied to retention. CRs are a part of this (and also builds community)
- No instant clicky/afk fast travel. (Teleportation in dungeons will be there, like CoH etc). This is so that the world will actually matter again. Localized economies will spring up. Travel will not be something you do every day in Vanguard unlike any other mmorpg out there. Where every quest basically sends you across the world. A whole lot of Vanguards system is built around this (economy, weather, drops)
- No instances. (yay). A world should be a world. It should not create small pocket universes for you at your leisure.
So yes. There are some similarities to the Old EQ. It is a "realistic" look world, not a specialized look like WoW. It has gone back to the roots of a harsher death penalty. Travel will not be a zip zip sort of thing. But you also have many features that are unique to Vanguard, and some where the idea is not unique but the implementation of it is.
But the main part I like about Vanguard and Sigil, it is that they are finally not afraid to break the current trend of making everything easier. They are making the game they want to play, and if you don't like it, well.... "Sorry, this game might not be for you". I see no reason why everyone has to make everything simplified. Drops, death penalties, quests..... If the game doesn't offer any challenges, then there will be no sense of reward, so why on earth would you play it.
I had more affection for my first gotten bag in EQ than any item gotten from EQ2 or WoW. I remember getting it. I worked hard for it. This was now over 5 years ago. I want that feeling back. I want the feeling of challenge and risk back. I want to see a mob and think "EEEK" instead of thinking "Meh. If he comes, I'll just rez and come back".
Read : [url=http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php]
It's the best faq regarding Vanguard.[/b][/quote]
great first post my friend
let me reiterate because now thinking about it i might have been misunderstood. when i say "eq1 with new features" i am not saying it will be innovative and that those features are not used by other mmorpg's. what i mean is new features that eq1 didn't have, sorry for the confusion but i still never said vanguard wasn't a eq1 clone because clearly it is
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
my bad for not really understanding you, I do hope this title brings more to the table, but as what I have read so far, it dosn't seem so, eh time will tell that's for sure. So as well, I appologize for the miss-understanding on my part as well.
BTW, your sig is awsome
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
What makes it 'clearly' a clone?
I never played EQ so not sure what makes people think that playing Vanguard will be just like playing EQ+Stuff.
What makes it 'clearly' a clone?
I never played EQ so not sure what makes people think that playing Vanguard will be just like playing EQ+Stuff.
just the way they have described it in their FAQ, they even mention that it has similarity's, trust me it is not a bad thing if you like pve. pretty much all fantasy rpg's have got alot of similar things to eq, but also the people that designed eq are the same that are designing vanguard.
i could give you better more detailed answers to your question but kinda tired ATM
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Vanguard is not being designed to have 5,000,000 subscribers. It's being designed to bring The Vision back to life.
Just another thought, how many people blow through "casual" play games get bored and leave to try somethibg else?? If they dont leave they make like 8 alts get them all to max lvl then finnaly leave or start spamming boards that there isnt enough end game content. Sigil is just trying bring back the type of game that players do not bore easily nor do they eat up content with ease. They want the game to be a challange, and to bring back risk vs reward.
SOME of the dev team came from EQ, and moved to set up Sigil with Brad McQaid. However they have devs from several other games too. It's the name "Brad McQuaid" that has lead so many to believe it to be the true EQ2, or whatever. However Brad himself is influenced by numerous mmos, including UO, and many newer ones.
SOME of the people that post on the official forums are die hard, old school EQ players, that quit shortly after SOE took over and ruined "their" game, as they see it. They give the impression, if you read the forums, that Vanguard will be the "true" EQ2, but many of them will be disapointed.
Vanguard may end up being closer in style to EQ than, say, WoW, but nowhere near it in truth, possibly upseting the old school EQers AND the more recent WoW type gamers.
One thing it won't be is a clone of EQ. Not even WoW is that, although some parts of the game MIGHT be.
It will have the spirit of EQ, and that is the most important thing. It will have "The Vision" which EQ quickly lost after Brad left. It will be guided by "The Vision" of a gamer on how a game should be made instead of the vision of a corporation on how money should be made. And that is the one thing the old EQ players miss the most. A game with soul and (no matter how many hated it at the time) "The Vision."
well i don't think anybody knows exactly how it is going to be, but from what i have read it will be alot like eq1 pre kunark.
as far as calling it a eq clone or not, well it depends if you are saying it wont be exactly like eq1 then yeah i would agree. but it will be alot like eq more so than wow or any other game, maybe even more than eq2(except the lore ofcource)
will the old skool eq players be upset with vanguard? that remains to be seen. i really hope not, all i have to say is if vanguard has the same vision and feel as eq1 did when i first started out.....look out! lol
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
bah, double post
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I disagree. It will have the "Vision" mark 2. Not the original Vision of EQ, but it's own vision. Why? Brad himself has stated many, many times, in the FAQs, and on the forums, that the original vision of EQ was flawed. There was a gulf between the planning of the game and the implementation.
Just one example was the long travel times. Brad wanted the world to feel big, to have communities spread out all over, and have the journey itself as an experience. However the long travel times in the end became a grind, that it is, something you did over and over to accomplish a goal. They became tedious, and were nothing more than down time between the fun side of the game.
Now SOME older EQers WANT the long travel time to come back, AND want the tedium. There are also SOME players that want quick, EASY travel, as in WoW. Brad however has stated many times that the long travel times were ok in EQ, and as planned, but the tedium was not part of the plan. He has stated that the solution was NOT to trivialise travel, not to make it shorter, but to make it more interesting.
In others words, retain long travel times, not get rid of any tedium involved.
Unfortunately many players just assume that Vanguard will be a carbon copy of EQ with better graphics and some tweaks and additions. They have blinkers on and simply refuse to open their minds. Sigil plan to implement the "Vision" of EQ, but in the form of "Vision 1.2" tailored to the new game. And I have no doubt that if Sigil see a feature in WoW, or EQ2 that they like, and will improve Vanguard, whilst not "dumbing down", or diluting the new vision, then they will add it.
A lot of the ideas in EQ2 came from Brad and Co (and WoW stole many ideas from EQ2) but may not have been implemented as they wanted. Vangaurd is the chance to do it right.
Actually some already are upset. there are several old schoolers that want death to really mean something, as in EQ. So when you die, they want you have to run back to find and loot your corpse, with little or even no help. They think you should just remember where you were, look around, and make your way back. Even if it takes you two hours to find our corpse, which turns out to be stuck almost entirely insde an object, making it very hard to see.
They absolutely hate the idea of the "golden cord" which will aid you in finding your corpse. They have whined and cried like babies, and railed against Brad and co for adding such a "carebear" feature, accused Sigil of selling out to big business, dumbing down the game, catering to the WoW kiddies.
Brad even posted in a thread, several times, to refute their childess complaints, declaring that having beta tested the game for weeks they determined that the cord was absolutely essential. Yet one player, who has not even tested the game, claimed that Brad was just a BAD player, and that he, the player, WOULD be able to find his corpse with no problems.
Vanguard will be like EQ in the same way a portrait is like the subject. But the style of the painting may not suit ALL tastes.
well you cant make everyone happy my friend, there does need to be a harsh death penalty but searching for your corpse for hours on end is kinda ridiculous. people will always complain no matter what, some people just wont be happy.
and believe me i know lol, when i first played eq i adventured off into everfrost and got killed....i spent (this is not an exaggeration) 4-6 hours looking for my corpse. i found it once only to get killed again, this frustrated me so much i gave up and quit the game only to have several of my friends talk me into playing the game again(true story).
there needs to be some way to find your corpse IMO, it wont make the game any easier just easier to find your corpse. now getting to your corpse and actually being able to loot it is a whole different story entirely.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
This is what I just don't get about this community;
Looking back over this thread, and the 100s like it, why the hell, if the game doesn't interest you, do you have to hang around and bitch and moan and make a general ass of yourself in that game's forums.
Same deal with a lot of DDO threads. Omfg, if you don't like instancing, good. Now f**k off!
And it's the same here. And with many other games.
If a hardcore, 'grindfest' ala EQ1 redux doesn't interest you, good. And f**k off.
It's the bane of this community, most constructive conversations get overtaken with people bitching and moaning about a game they have no f**k'n idea about, and no f**k'n interest in playing.
So again, just f**k off!
[Edit: Ahhh.. sorry, but that feels better
]
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
so how do you really feel?
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Well if you are the lazy spoiled wow type player then I suggest that where you go. Brad at Sigil as stated they are looking for 5 million subscribers. They are looking at maintaining EQ1 number for a period of 5-7 years. That comes to an average of 350,000 to 450,000 on a monthly basis. They are not going to cater to the Lazy crowd who want everything handed to them.
And no this is not a EQ clone. If you took the time to read all the devs post and feature you would see that. But go play your little wow kiddy game LOL and be happy with making level 60 in 3 months. WWOOOW what a challange..
First, it works both ways. If you like a game shut up and play it or wait for it to come out. Quit telling everyone who thinks it sucks how great it is.
Second, this is a discussion forum, this is where people discuss differing views. There wouldn't be much sense of a forum if they just looked like this:
DDO Is great
Yep
Yep
Yep
Yep
If you can't handle people with differing views, maybe you should find a new hobby.
First, it works both ways. If you like a game shut up and play it or wait for it to come out. Quit telling everyone who thinks it sucks how great it is.
Second, this is a discussion forum, this is where people discuss differing views. There wouldn't be much sense of a forum if they just looked like this:
DDO Is great
Yep
Yep
Yep
Yep
If you can't handle people with differing views, maybe you should find a new hobby.
Did i miss something here?? I really dont see anywhere in that where i downed anyone elses opinion. The only thing that i was agreeing with was the pointlessness of spamming a forum of a game that you have no interest in. As a matter of fact i welcome differing opinions and have had mine changed more than once buy listening to someone else. The forums are here to dicuss opinion and its a great tool for Devs to use in makeing a MMO. And i do not try to convince the world that the game i like is the best one or the only game out there, i just give my opinion and if you agree cool, if not thats cool to. Ive liked and agreed with alot of your posts Jod, so ease off the flameing and save it for the fanboi or another flamer and lets be friends
Did i miss something here?? I really dont see anywhere in that where i downed anyone elses opinion.
It sounded like you were asking people not to post negative opinions about a game. If that wasn't what you meant than I apologize.
The only thing that i was agreeing with was the pointlessness of spamming a forum of a game that you have no interest in.
I will not be buying DDO, but I still post there. I don't start threads to specifically bash the game, if someone starts a thread, I'll post my opinion, just like the person that started the thread did.
As far as being pointless, well of course it's pointless, you don't get much more pointless than arguing about a video game. I saw a signature once that said: "Arguing about a Video Game is sort of like the Special Olympics, even if you win you're still retarded." I try to keep that in mind when I post, but it doesn't always help.
As a matter of fact i welcome differing opinions and have had mine changed more than once buy listening to someone else. The forums are here to dicuss opinion and its a great tool for Devs to use in makeing a MMO. And i do not try to convince the world that the game i like is the best one or the only game out there, i just give my opinion and if you agree cool, if not thats cool to.
Again, that's not what it sounded like to me. If I misunderstood, I apologize.
Ive liked and agreed with alot of your posts Jod, so ease off the flameing and save it for the fanboi or another flamer and lets be friends
LOL. Sorry, it's sort of like Baseball, you're only as good as your last post
. I don't typically look too closely at the name.
Wepps and I used to fight a lot on the SWG forums. I didn't/don't hate him (heck I don't even know him), and I didn't go out of my way to argue with his posts. He just said a lot I didn't agree with and I felt he contridicted himself a lot. Lately, I don't konw if I've learned his style, or he's changed the way he posts, but while I didn't agree with what he said, he supported facts with evidence, and qualified what was opinion as his opinion, something I didn't see him do when we were arguing.
So I don't "go after" anyone, just like I don't support anyone.
A very promising game, one I'm looking forward to a lot.
I read over almost this entire thread!
One theme that stands out for me is players from the original EQ looking for an MMO that will duplicate the gaming experience they had when they first entered the gaming universe of Everquest.
I don't think any MMO can duplicate the experience of playing our very first MMO, that experience is a one time only revelation.
My first and only MMO was WoW. Having no other MMO to compare it to I would say it was among the greatest gaming experiences I ever had. However, I do see why players would say the game was too easy. Leveling was fun but mostly an under challenged experience. I played as a casual gamer with zero experience with the genre and blew through the game in about 9 months. Well, by that I mean I pretty much did everything I wanted to do, and saw all I wanted to see, and experienced most of the gameplay that was there to experience. To stick around any longer would have meant grouping and playing a series of dungeon crawls or repetitive PvP raids. As much as I enjoyed the game there is no way I could stick with it for months on end doing that kind of stuff. Basically when I ran out of PvE content I was done with the game. Grouping and running instances was fun but not something that holds my gaming interest indefinitely.
Vanguard is something I am looking forward to along with a couple other MMOs I consider promising. I am looking for an alternative to World of Warcraft. Something with deeper and more challenging PvE content. PvP is fine too but for me it is just one aspect of a complete MMO. PvP combat gameplay alone is too narrow to carry my interest for months on end. Ditto for grouping and instance running. I guess what I am looking for is an immersible universe with lots of PvE content. A seamless world with loads of exploration, discovery and challenge, both in the solo sense and the grouping sense.
"The Pen Is Mightier Than The Demo"