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The PvE only player - Why we can't have nice things.
bcbully
Member EpicPosts: 11,843
Should developers continue to design content for the PvE only player?
I don't think they should. The PvE only player is the creative roadblock in mmorpg design. From resource gathering to trade, to territory control, they have all been designed, governed or gutted by the demands of the PvE only player.
There can be no transit of commerce because of the PvE only player. Social systems are left without politics because of the PvE only player. Wealth creation systems are designed with the PvE only player in mind. This way of developing mmorpgs has lead to the creation of sterile worlds, lacking consequence.
Developing mmorpgs for the pvp/pve player will allow for the creation of any and all systems. Systems that can then be smoothed for balance with moderation in mind for the majority of players.
I have a dream that one day, pve and pvp will be things of the past! Tha... I'll stop here.
Comments
The PvE-focused player makes up the majority of the playerbase of every successful sandbox MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I would disagree. I think it's the player that does both to some degree. Beyond that it will be conjecture from the both of us.
This ^... The number of pvp only players is small other wise there would be more pvp games out. The few that have came out have small populations.
I think that the problem is that almost all MMOs are made for the same group of players and then add in a few elements (like crafting and arenas) to lure in others.
There is nothing wrong with PvE only players (I play both myself), the problem starts when you make 90% of the game for them while still pretending that the game have plenty of content for everyone.
As I see it should a games focus on PvE, PvP or have about the same of both, but not adding token PvP or PvE to a game clearly aimed for other players. It just annoys people who prefer that playstyle and the devs use precious resources for content that just can't become good enough.
If you put equal focus on both it is fine as long as the game actually have mechanics that works equally good for both, something trinity combat sadly have very hard to accomplish.
If your stance is that any point you disagree with is conjecture on the other person's part, then I guess we are at an impasse. On the off chance that you are open to actual information, both UO and EVE devs have stated on numerous occasions that only about 20% of their playerbase engages in PVP. This is consistent across most sandbox MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That doesn't exactly prove anything. Maybe MMOs PvP just is badly made, or maybe the financers only believe in PvE games.
You don't see many people solo playing FPS games, almost all of the FPS players play PVP. That could of course mean that FPS draw in the PVP people but I have a feeling that the real problem is that MMO PvP is nowhere near as good as it should be.
Most MMOs still have trinity combat as a base and it was developed for PvE. There are some new different mechanics that are interesting but they all could use more work.
I personally don't think either is better, just different and I do believe that if a PvP MMO came around that was good enough it would attract as much people as the PvE games, fun games do attract people.
That would of course mean that devs will have to think outside the box, just remaking UO wont make a good PvP game no matter what some people here might think.
Transit of commerce only requires localization of resources and no instantaneous way to deliver the resources. If copper is only found on the western side of the map, and people need it on the Eastern side of the map, they will either travel to the Western side and buy it cheap, or wait for someone else to transport it to the Eastern side and pay more money for it. True, there is no chance to lose the resources, but players who don't carry the resources themselves will pay a higher price.
There are plenty of politics in the current social system. They occur inside the guilds rather than outside the guilds. However, it's fairly easy to imagine a system where players compete through PvE for political resources. Control of map resources, transit points, etc. TSW hinted at this with their Facebook game, but never implemented anything even remotely like it in their MMORPG. This isn't because games are centered around PvE players though. This is because game are largely centered around the most common denominator as far as game play. It's not PvE v. PvP, it's Group v. Solo. Solo play is differentiated, while Group play follows "what works". So we get end game raids, with a gear grind scenario instead of competitive PvE content. Blizzard is working some competitive PvE content into their game. I don't think it leads to land control, but it is a slight difference from just running PvE dungeons.
Most games are designed for PvE/PvP players. It's just that the PvP players aren't any more imaginative than the PvE players and the systems implemented aren't any more imaginative than the systems implemented for the PvE players.
Concerning TSW : I can't find any descriptions of TSW's Facebook game online, but it went like this. Players would log in and be presented with a map of the world, divided into hexagons. The hexagons didn't cross any boundaries, so one hexagon would only be in the United States, not the United States and Canada. Players would gather information about the game, which gave them points they could use to field resources against the other factions around the world. So if a particular hex was under contention, then players could send resources there. The goal was to control as many hexes as possible, but also to gather as many resources as possible from the hexes. It was a three way battle for domination of the planet. This could have very easily played out with players engaging in solo PvE, group PvE, solo PvP and group PvP content in each of the hexes to gain control. Even a combination of things where the PvE content provided additional resources of advantages for a faction in the PvP content. I think it would have been a LOT better than what they ended up doing, even if I think they did a good job with the base content.
* Edit *
The enhanced editor interferes with automatic spell check. It drives me nuts. I want to use the enhanced editor, but I can't stand all the grammatical mistakes that I make.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I am quite sure Keush was referring specifically to the number of people that play PVP only in MMOs, and not the number of people that want PVP in gaming as a whole, since most MMO gamers, PVP-focused or PVE-focused, also play FPS or MOBA games.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yes, because I'm a PvE-only player.
Why does it bother you that SOME games don't cater directly to you? Are you so entitled that you don't think a game has a right to exist unless it's marketed toward you? Get a grip and go play one of the thousands of PVE games already on the market and stop trying to poison the well of sandbox gaming.
I am absolutely convinced that the Mainstream AAA Developers pay people to come onto sites and downplay the demand for FFA Sandbox MMO's
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
touché
You disagree... Show me some thriving PvP only games please. And then while you're at it how about showing me a game that has this magic balance of PvP/PvE, I am willing to be that whatever game you throw out there will be majorly filled with PvE players...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Okay, I have seen enough to convince myself, that other publishers/devs, have a budget set aside, to pay trolls, flamers, hate breeders (whatever you want to call them), to trash other games.
Back when I did play WoW, there were two players that, that never fucked me over, never stole from the bank, and I knew them for years. So I considered them trustworthy. In vent they were always respect to other raiders. No red flags.
One day (they were related, cousins), in vent, they told me, how one of the larger Devs, paid them, to go on the official forums, of other games to slander games. They told me, studios seem to think, undecided players will stalk forums, when on the fence about a new MMO. They were paid, to make stuff up pretty much, and exaggerate flaws.
They said, they called in fanning the flames, because soon, there were tons of angry MMO fanboys, right there exaggerating with them. For every person calling them out, five more were agreeing with them, all because they had a different problem with the game.
They never told me, who paid them, what they paid them. Only that they have been doing it awhile, and the pay is up there, with an above average job or more. That devs would inspect said forums, and not post, just to inspect the work. Because they couldn't have it linked to them directly.
Now I'm not saying this is true. But my gut says it probably is, I think if they were liars they would have named dropped. Name dropping would make sense if you are lying here, because you are a fanboy of this or that MMO, and want to bash games you don't like.
Anyway, I would think this site, is prime for paid people to fan the flames.
One last thing is, they say not all developers do it. But some quite literally put their company on the line for an MMO, and they are willing to use every possible means to be successful for jobs and shareholders.
Again not saying it's true, but it at least is possible.
EDIT
That being said? If it was true? I am sure some game journalist would have found a leak to expose this sort of thing. I mean I remember when one, caught a dragon age II dev, posting a review on Metracritic, saying how great the game was, because of the negative feedback. You'd think, one unhappy paid troll would have leaked something.
"What tastes like purple?"
Of course they should, if that is where the audience is.
Yeah there is a massive thriving PVP community in minecraft...
I'm sorry I couldn't keep a straight face while saying that.
Sandbox games ARE mostly PVE.
No and no. Personally I prefer PvE, as it offers much more difficulty when done well or provides that more 'relaxed' feel I enjoy. Maybe its tainted by the fact most PvP is just about cheese factor that bothers me, or the fact most "PVPers" are more about "Player Vs Helpless Target" which isn't remotely fun and is quite pitiful. In most cases, PvP causes MORE problems for games requiring far more balance and causing classes to become some homogolized that it hurts the feel of the classes and often limits them.
Rather then point at PvE, if anyone should be pointed at for harming MMos its the PvP side. Still, I dont' want to rid of PvP. As heavy PvE focused as I am, I actually enjoy faction based PvP. Its enjoyable as hell giving a ganker a surprise of their life as what they viewed as an easy win gets turned around and they get slaughtered. PvP is a good time filler and gives something else to the game. Having balanced focused so much on PvP just ends up tarnishing the gaem.
PvP players are why we can't have interesting class mechanics and other elements to keep things interesting, and I'm not mad about it, I just wish there were ways to allow for PvP to not hamper gameplay, because I feel a mix of both (with a game siding more towards one or the other being fine) can create a much stronger game.
The problem that PVP-only people don't to admit is that you have had and do have them; the thing is, hardly anyone plays them.
The vast majority of people do not like or want an anything goes combat system. Just look at the mind bogglingly large number of industry and other pve-system corporations in Eve Online. Or the atrocious player numbers in Darkfall. Or perhaps you remember a game called Shadowbane that closed its doors so fast I barely had time to try it?
PVP and PVE both have their place. The issue that PVP-players like to plug their ears against is the fact that most people who really enjoy PVP aren't playing the MMORPG of the week. They're playing games 1st person shooters and standard online games that require actual player skill instead of just no-lifeing your way to the best gear and then memorizing a build and rotation.
I play both, which I think is the case for many people. But I feel the case for a hardcore, primarily PVP MMORPG isn't there, because that niche is already being filled better by games in other genres. IE, Call of Duty, League of Legends, etc.
You already do.
MOBAs.
WoT
PS2
.....
There are, any MOBA is PvP-centric, right? If you're looking for an MMO specifically, Darkfall is, also, isn't it? Camelot Unchained is supposed to be. DAOC is. There are games out there which are PvP-centric, but the point of the other poster is that the MMOs, specifically, aren't thriving. That isn't to say that there isn't interest in PvP. I think that there is a huge market for PvP games, but I think that people who are looking for PvP games are generally more content with lobby games since it skips all the annoying storyline stuff that gets in the way of their PvP.
There is also a really good reason why many games are light on PvP. Specifically, it's the a-hole factor. See, I find the top tier PvP players are generally good people. I actually just got caught talking to an innkeeper yesterday in WoW and it took me a second to realize I wasn't dead after 2 shots and actually fight back. Either way, I lost, but the biggest surprise of it all was that when I rez'd I didn't immediately get attacked again. Oh, and then I actually saw the guy after I sold some stuff and he /bow'd me. It's THAT kind of respect that is, unfortunately, missing in much of the PvP that's out there today. Usually, it's talentless players who aren't worth their weight in pigeon turds, or people so angry that they just want to make someone else's day as shitty as theirs. It's a lack of honor and pride in their own reputation that's missing these days. Unfortunately, game developers don't want to inject poison into their games because, especially for free games, it costs them a lot of time and money to acquire a new player, to risk having them scared off before they can open their wallet by some short-poled PvP player sitting in a starting zone because they just have way too much time on their hands than to do something productive like actually try to improve their PvP rankings against real opponents.
Is that a sufficient explanation as to why PvP is being seen less and less. It's no secret agenda by one or two people on a forum who is making all the game companies cut PvP out of their game, it's the PvPers themselves. If you fail to see that, well I suggest you play the games you can, while you can because unless people wake up and smell the damn coffee, they won't be around much longer.
Crazkanuk
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No, A lot of people are just not interested in a game where others can piss on their cereal for the fun of it.
You didn't let me finish my thought
above you.
Good then don't play it...
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"