Why does it bother you that SOME games don't cater directly to you? Are you so entitled that you don't think a game has a right to exist unless it's marketed toward you? Get a grip and go play one of the thousands of PVE games already on the market and stop trying to poison the well of sandbox gaming.
I am absolutely convinced that the Mainstream AAA Developers pay people to come onto sites and downplay the demand for FFA Sandbox MMO's
Here's an idea: Go play one of the dozens of PvP games already out. Oh that's right, they're almost all dying because nobody wants to play them.
People like you clamor for a AAA PvP sandbox title, then make lame excuses as to why you don't play any of those currently available. Guess what hotshot, larger companies are looking at the PvP sandboxes out there, seeing how poorly they're doing, and concluding that there simply isn't a market for that type of game (EVE is the exception, not the rule).
You want a high quality PvP sandbox? Put your money where your mouth is, and stop spending it on tinfoil.
I do play those games... I support them on kickstarter and Greenlight... until they give in and start catering to the vocal minority carebears on the forums, or the evidence of their developer/admin corruption comes to light. The truth is these FFA sandbox games do fine, and make a small profit. Then after awhile they give in to greed, and try to change their vision. Then the game dies.
Nothing you said holds any weight. There are burger joints that Are not McDonalds, but they don't just shut their doors because they don't sell as many burgers as McDonalds. So in fact there ARE thousands of games you want to play, and we PVP sandbox players knowingly have a niche market, but you peopel come in here and tell us that Niche games aren't allowed, and they have to cater to the lowest common denominator or they won't see WoW's success. Know what? I'm guessing small indy developers don't really care to EVER hit WoW numberss. most of them are doing it because they want a game that THEY and other people like them can enjoy. That's the reality of this. you have thousands of games to play, but you are coming in here to tell us how we should not play a game because it belongs to a genre that you admittedly don't even like...
AAA Developer Shills doing that they get paid to do. Keeping the industry on that formula track...
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
The PvE-focused player makes up the majority of the playerbase of every successful sandbox MMO.
This ^... The number of pvp only players is small other wise there would be more pvp games out. The few that have came out have small populations.
That doesn't exactly prove anything. Maybe MMOs PvP just is badly made, or maybe the financers only believe in PvE games.
You don't see many people solo playing FPS games, almost all of the FPS players play PVP. That could of course mean that FPS draw in the PVP people but I have a feeling that the real problem is that MMO PvP is nowhere near as good as it should be.
Most MMOs still have trinity combat as a base and it was developed for PvE. There are some new different mechanics that are interesting but they all could use more work.
I personally don't think either is better, just different and I do believe that if a PvP MMO came around that was good enough it would attract as much people as the PvE games, fun games do attract people.
That would of course mean that devs will have to think outside the box, just remaking UO wont make a good PvP game no matter what some people here might think.
+1
I love PVP in FPS and RTS games, mainly in FPS I go in to kill or be killed. A RTS I like taking my prepare time. With a MMORPG it's about "living" in this fantasy/sci fi or whatever world.
Open world PVP like SWG with it's flag system, Fallen Earth with it's un-instanced PVP zone's that's the PVP I like in my MMORPG. But to run circles in differerent instances taken out of the world is not my idea of MMORPG PVP because I can get that so much better and more exciting for my taste in both FPS and RTS games.
I still believe there is a untapped market to win with a fantasy based online game. A game that does the same thing FPS games do but then with more magic and melee . As for a sci fi oriented MMORPG with PVP then PVP really should be leaps above what is already offered in normal multiplayer games.
The new majority will be the loudest so even if we had a perfect remake of what ever old school game it will remain in the niche segement and the majority will try to "burn" that game down regardless. Not meant for every new majority player.
I pleading for something made for the person who enjoys both.
That's almost every MMO in existence. Either you're not being clear or you're pleading for something that has been the norm for a decade and a half.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The PvE-focused player makes up the majority of the playerbase of every successful sandbox MMO.
This ^... The number of pvp only players is small other wise there would be more pvp games out. The few that have came out have small populations.
That doesn't exactly prove anything. Maybe MMOs PvP just is badly made, or maybe the financers only believe in PvE games.
You don't see many people solo playing FPS games, almost all of the FPS players play PVP. That could of course mean that FPS draw in the PVP people but I have a feeling that the real problem is that MMO PvP is nowhere near as good as it should be.
Most MMOs still have trinity combat as a base and it was developed for PvE. There are some new different mechanics that are interesting but they all could use more work.
I personally don't think either is better, just different and I do believe that if a PvP MMO came around that was good enough it would attract as much people as the PvE games, fun games do attract people.
That would of course mean that devs will have to think outside the box, just remaking UO wont make a good PvP game no matter what some people here might think.
+1
I love PVP in FPS and RTS games, mainly in FPS I go in to kill or be killed. A RTS I like taking my prepare time. With a MMORPG it's about "living" in this fantasy/sci fi or whatever world.
Open world PVP like SWG with it's flag system, Fallen Earth with it's un-instanced PVP zone's that's the PVP I like in my MMORPG. But to run circles in differerent instances taken out of the world is not my idea of MMORPG PVP because I can get that so much better and more exciting for my taste in both FPS and RTS games.
I still believe there is a untapped market to win with a fantasy based online game. A game that does the same thing FPS games do but then with more magic and melee . As for a sci fi oriented MMORPG with PVP then PVP really should be leaps above what is already offered in normal multiplayer games.
The new majority will be the loudest so even if we had a perfect remake of what ever old school game it will remain in the niche segement and the majority will try to "burn" that game down regardless. Not meant for every new majority player.
I think SWG's flagging and TEF system was the pinnacle of Full PVP/PVE sandbox gaming. If you wanted to get involved you could. If not you just bury your nose in the sand and keep on repairing those Blue milk Harvesters...
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Originally posted by bcbully Simply amazing... I think a lot are missing the point.
No, A lot of people are just not interested in a game where others can piss on their cereal for the fun of it.
/raises hand
Count me in for that crowd.
*I* am not here for *your* amusement. I don't get paid to be *your* content. If you enjoy eating pissy cereal, by all means, eat to your heart's desire. I'll even gladly give you my own bowl of it.
bcbully, I had to read your original post again to get what you saying... You're saying, if a player is only interested in PvE, and ignores 100% the PvP side of the game, should developers keep making PvE content for those PvE ONLY players?
What many took that to mean, myself included, was NO PvE in the game at all. Basically, you're looking for a game that focuses on PvP first, PvE second, or even third. You'd like to see an MMO that has PvP from level 1 and players can focus on that if they desire, as that is the main focus of the game. There would be PvE in the game, but it would not be very good.
I can see a game or three like this, but the whole genre? It could happen...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
This is the same argument that has been going on (for how many years?) on these forums as the PVE MMO market is quickly evaporating. They are getting desperate and flooding any forum they can find to downplay the demand for Sandbox MMO's. Countless talentless hack copy adn paste WoW clone game developers are going to be out on their ears very soon.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
It's a business. They should do whatever makes them the most money. The history of the MMO market to date implies that that is games which focus primarily on PvE, but also include optional PvP content. There is only one PvP focused game (EvE) that has achieved player numbers that anyone in the industry would argue are substantial, while there are several primarily PvE games to have done so.
As long as games with unrestricted PvP are so full of delinquent wannabe psychopaths that they end up functionally being forced grouping games just to stay alive, they are going to remain very niche. I really think that is the primary issue people have with unrestricted PvP, it's the fact that it renders solo play largely non-functional, and most players spend a substantial amount of time soloing.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Until people learn to not be asshats when given the freedom to be an asshat, we can't have nice things because of asshats.
Freedom isn't free.
It always costs someone something.
The PvP player's freedom to do PvP things is often at the expense of the PvE player's freedom to do PvE things.
The PvP player forces others into their desired play style. They often take their freedom quite directly from their target.
I realistic, true morality/criminality system that very, very strongly motivated people to NOT be asshats is the only solution.
Something like, PK players who go against the established rule of law in the game are subject to REAL in-game jail time and character permadeath:
The game must clearly state-
1. If you choose to be a criminal, you may face long duration in-game jail time - weeks or even more than a month of forced downtime on that character. No access to log in to the game's server with a jailed character for X amount of time.
2. If you choose to be a murderer, a sociopath, you are subject to permadeath of that character upon capture or player death by a registered bounty hunter.
3. War crimes - even in a state of legal war with a registered faction/alliance/guild etc. the killing of non-combatants is subject to war crimes proceedings, including long duration in-game jail time and/or character permadeath.
If you don't know the answer to a question the answer is money. Simple.
People make what gets them money. End.
People like yourself that hold that exact opinion is why the world is going to shit.
It's not an opinion, it's the reality. Whether or not the reality is good or bad, that is an opinion.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
They should just split them into different games like they used to do. Ultima Online was really a PvP game even though there were a few PvE things to do.
Everquest was really a PvE game even though you could dual.
I think there were PvE and PvP servers on both.
I'd rather see developers keep them separate so that there doesn't have to be sacrifices on either side.
PvE has actually been hit quite hard in terms of fun abilities and content being taken away for the sake of PvP balance.
Originally posted by bcbully Simply amazing... I think a lot are missing the point.
No, A lot of people are just not interested in a game where others can piss on their cereal for the fun of it.
/raises hand
Count me in for that crowd.
*I* am not here for *your* amusement. I don't get paid to be *your* content. If you enjoy eating pissy cereal, by all means, eat to your heart's desire. I'll even gladly give you my own bowl of it.
bcbully, I had to read your original post again to get what you saying... You're saying, if a player is only interested in PvE, and ignores 100% the PvP side of the game, should developers keep making PvE content for those PvE ONLY players?
What many took that to mean, myself included, was NO PvE in the game at all. Basically, you're looking for a game that focuses on PvP first, PvE second, or even third. You'd like to see an MMO that has PvP from level 1 and players can focus on that if they desire, as that is the main focus of the game. There would be PvE in the game, but it would not be very good.
I can see a game or three like this, but the whole genre? It could happen...
No, not an order of priority.
I'm speaking of systems that are designed for the player who enjoys pve and pvp. A great example of this is the transportation of items. This is not an inherent pvp or pve activity.
Development systems with the player who enjoys all aspects of mmorpgs in mind, versus the "I oooonly PvE" guy.
The PvE-focused player makes up the majority of the playerbase of every successful sandbox MMO.
This ^... The number of pvp only players is small other wise there would be more pvp games out. The few that have came out have small populations.
That doesn't exactly prove anything. Maybe MMOs PvP just is badly made, or maybe the financers only believe in PvE games.
You don't see many people solo playing FPS games, almost all of the FPS players play PVP. That could of course mean that FPS draw in the PVP people but I have a feeling that the real problem is that MMO PvP is nowhere near as good as it should be.
Most MMOs still have trinity combat as a base and it was developed for PvE. There are some new different mechanics that are interesting but they all could use more work.
I personally don't think either is better, just different and I do believe that if a PvP MMO came around that was good enough it would attract as much people as the PvE games, fun games do attract people.
That would of course mean that devs will have to think outside the box, just remaking UO wont make a good PvP game no matter what some people here might think.
I am quite sure Keush was referring specifically to the number of people that play PVP only in MMOs, and not the number of people that want PVP in gaming as a whole, since most MMO gamers, PVP-focused or PVE-focused, also play FPS or MOBA games.
Well, not sure about "most" but there is at least one player here who never plays FPS or MOBA games, I am a purist an only focus on MMORPG's, (with an occasion dip out to something like Fallout 3 or Starcraft 2) and rarely deviates.
I like my games to have PVP optional, much like EVE does, (when I venture into 0.0 or low sec) or DAOC or now ESO, as opposed to forced on me (which sometimes EVE does too much, at least with their War Deck mechanics)
What I really like is the ability to control my losses by playing smart, hence totally FFA titles such as DF have no appeal to me.
Sounds a lot like me.
Did you mean Full loot when talking about DarkFall? I'm not a huge fan of full loot, but I am a huge fan of civil FFA worlds like Wushu.
Well, yeah, the full loot turns me off, because truthfully, I'm going to lose a lot, I pretty much suck at PVP.
But its more than that. While never playing Wushu, what I read about it made it seem like it would have been a decent game for me to play (well, except for the action oriented combat, which I really suck at)
In EVE you can be attacked just about everywhere except when docked in stations. But, due to the punitive police force, in the high sec areas players only get attacked when they are flying something worth the attackers getting punished by Concorde, and usually not flying smart either.
Combine that with the more lawless areas of low sec or 0.0. and I have pretty good control over my losses, avoiding getting killed except on occasion when the risk exceeds the rewards.
Doesn't mean I never go into low sec/0.0, or wormholes, I do it all the time, but know that everyone I meet is likely opponent unless they are flying the allied star next to their names.
I like my PVE and like you have stated, don't mind if the PVP is woven in around it well, such as in EVE. I actually don't like playing on PVE only servers, takes away too much of the challenge, but then again, I don't want to be ganked around every corner.
Weirdly enough, my favorite server in DAOC was the FFA PVP server Mordred, spent most of my time there, even though I'm not a big PVPer. Like you have argued, it was a challenge to complete PVE activities where the enemy could attack at any moment, but again, I still managed to find ways to get 5 characters to 50 at a time when it was a real challenge to do so.
Funny thing about your argument though, if you were to ask some PVE only players, they would bemoan the fact that no developer really creates a PVE only MMO, they are always "ruining" them by catering the the PVP crowd.
I think at the end of the day, unless done very carefully, trying to create a game that blends PVP/PVE together is a fairly rare occurance, only done by EVE, Wushu and a few select titles.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Should developers continue to design content for the PvE only player?
I don't think they should. The PvE only player is the creative roadblock in mmorpg design. From resource gathering to trade, to territory control, they have all been designed, governed or gutted by the demands of the PvE only player.
There can be no transit of commerce because of the PvE only player. Social systems are left without politics because of the PvE only player. Wealth creation systems are designed with the PvE only player in mind. This way of developing mmorpgs has lead to the creation of sterile worlds, lacking consequence.
Developing mmorpgs for the pvp/pve player will allow for the creation of any and all systems. Systems that can then be smoothed for balance with moderation in mind for the majority of players.
I have a dream that one day, pve and pvp will be things of the past! Tha... I'll stop here.
Until people learn to not be asshats when given the freedom to be an asshat, we can't have nice things because of asshats.
Freedom isn't free.
It always costs someone something.
The PvP player's freedom to do PvP things is often at the expense of the PvE player's freedom to do PvE things.
The PvP player forces others into their desired play style. They often take their freedom quite directly from their target.
I realistic, true morality/criminality system that very, very strongly motivated people to NOT be asshats is the only solution.
Something like, PK players who go against the established rule of law in the game are subject to REAL in-game jail time and character permadeath:
The game must clearly state-
1. If you choose to be a criminal, you may face long duration in-game jail time - weeks or even more than a month of forced downtime on that character. No access to log in to the game's server with a jailed character for X amount of time.
2. If you choose to be a murderer, a sociopath, you are subject to permadeath of that character upon capture or player death by a registered bounty hunter.
3. War crimes - even in a state of legal war with a registered faction/alliance/guild etc. the killing of non-combatants is subject to war crimes proceedings, including long duration in-game jail time and/or character permadeath.
Best post in this thread.
People want to be asshats without the consequences. That's the problem and goes for both PVE and PVP.
The lack of reputation meaning anything is why we can't have nice things.
Until people learn to not be asshats when given the freedom to be an asshat, we can't have nice things because of asshats.
Freedom isn't free.
It always costs someone something.
The PvP player's freedom to do PvP things is often at the expense of the PvE player's freedom to do PvE things.
The PvP player forces others into their desired play style. They often take their freedom quite directly from their target.
I realistic, true morality/criminality system that very, very strongly motivated people to NOT be asshats is the only solution.
Something like, PK players who go against the established rule of law in the game are subject to REAL in-game jail time and character permadeath:
The game must clearly state-
1. If you choose to be a criminal, you may face long duration in-game jail time - weeks or even more than a month of forced downtime on that character. No access to log in to the game's server with a jailed character for X amount of time.
2. If you choose to be a murderer, a sociopath, you are subject to permadeath of that character upon capture or player death by a registered bounty hunter.
3. War crimes - even in a state of legal war with a registered faction/alliance/guild etc. the killing of non-combatants is subject to war crimes proceedings, including long duration in-game jail time and/or character permadeath.
Your entire argument is invalid because they CHOOSE to join a game with full pvp. They CHOSE to become a victim. There are those that die and there are those that die with honor in FFA Sandbox. You make that choice on your own.
The only asshats I see are the ones who join a game with a pvp ruleset then cry on forums when someone kills their flower pickin hippy ass.
Those are the true asshats who clearly have some sort of emotional problems or just want to cause problems for sandbox gaming in general. If you don't like it... Don't play it, and don't tell us how to play it.
4. if you choose to be a carebear you should at least face death with some dignity
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Development systems with the player who enjoys all aspects of mmorpgs in mind, versus the "I oooonly PvE" guy.
That only makes sense if the "player who enjoys it all" audience is larger than the "I only PvE" audience, which doesn't appear to be the case. But if you want to have a real conversation about how to address the issues you bring up, you have to talk about why the "I only PvE" player exists in the first place, and how to make that player *want* to do more than just PvE. Changing the games without first finding a way to change audience preferences is just a path to failed games.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Development systems with the player who enjoys all aspects of mmorpgs in mind, versus the "I oooonly PvE" guy.
That only makes sense if the "player who enjoys it all" audience is larger than the "I only PvE" audience, which doesn't appear to be the case. But if you want to have a real conversation about how to address the issues you bring up, you have to talk about why the "I only PvE" player exists in the first place, and how to make that player *want* to do more than just PvE. Changing the games without first finding a way to change audience preferences is just a path to failed games.
It's ok for the computer to kill me, but if a player does it I go crying off to the forums to have pvp removed...
That's the mindset of the PVE only type. What they were even doing in a FFAPVP game in the first place?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I found that I love building. It would be a travesty If this was developed for the pve only player. It should be developed with the pve/pvp player in mind. The player that likes all things in moderation.
I realistic, true morality/criminality system that very, very strongly motivated people to NOT be asshats is the only solution.
Something like, PK players who go against the established rule of law in the game are subject to REAL in-game jail time and character permadeath:
The game must clearly state-
1. If you choose to be a criminal, you may face long duration in-game jail time - weeks or even more than a month of forced downtime on that character. No access to log in to the game's server with a jailed character for X amount of time.
2. If you choose to be a murderer, a sociopath, you are subject to permadeath of that character upon capture or player death by a registered bounty hunter.
3. War crimes - even in a state of legal war with a registered faction/alliance/guild etc. the killing of non-combatants is subject to war crimes proceedings, including long duration in-game jail time and/or character permadeath.
People want to be asshats without the consequences. That's the problem and goes for both PVE and PVP.
The lack of reputation meaning anything is why we can't have nice things.
I realistic, true morality/criminality system that very, very strongly motivated people to NOT be asshats is the only solution.
Something like, PK players who go against the established rule of law in the game are subject to REAL in-game jail time and character permadeath:
The game must clearly state-
1. If you choose to be a criminal, you may face long duration in-game jail time - weeks or even more than a month of forced downtime on that character. No access to log in to the game's server with a jailed character for X amount of time.
2. If you choose to be a murderer, a sociopath, you are subject to permadeath of that character upon capture or player death by a registered bounty hunter.
3. War crimes - even in a state of legal war with a registered faction/alliance/guild etc. the killing of non-combatants is subject to war crimes proceedings, including long duration in-game jail time and/or character permadeath.
Your entire argument is invalid because they CHOOSE to join a game with full pvp.
This is the problem man, so very few choose to join those games, so they aren't being made.
How do you get people to WANT to get more involved with PvP over PvE?
Remove the asshats. Or make the asshats really, really have to think about the consequences of their behavior.
Ya'll sandbox ffa etc. etc. folk are always championing "realism" and "honor" yet I propose a system that would give you BOTH and it's still not enough.
Asshats LIKE being asshats.
Hence why game that cater to asshats are always so, so, so very low in population and thus funding, support, quality, etc.
Have you guys looked at Life is Feudal. Full PVP, Full Loot, With Very harsh penalties for PKing. Such as red players have a chance depending on their reputation of losing ALL of their skill points on death. Virtually a permadeath system ONLY for Red players.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Comments
I do play those games... I support them on kickstarter and Greenlight... until they give in and start catering to the vocal minority carebears on the forums, or the evidence of their developer/admin corruption comes to light. The truth is these FFA sandbox games do fine, and make a small profit. Then after awhile they give in to greed, and try to change their vision. Then the game dies.
Nothing you said holds any weight. There are burger joints that Are not McDonalds, but they don't just shut their doors because they don't sell as many burgers as McDonalds. So in fact there ARE thousands of games you want to play, and we PVP sandbox players knowingly have a niche market, but you peopel come in here and tell us that Niche games aren't allowed, and they have to cater to the lowest common denominator or they won't see WoW's success. Know what? I'm guessing small indy developers don't really care to EVER hit WoW numberss. most of them are doing it because they want a game that THEY and other people like them can enjoy. That's the reality of this. you have thousands of games to play, but you are coming in here to tell us how we should not play a game because it belongs to a genre that you admittedly don't even like...
AAA Developer Shills doing that they get paid to do. Keeping the industry on that formula track...
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
+1
I love PVP in FPS and RTS games, mainly in FPS I go in to kill or be killed. A RTS I like taking my prepare time. With a MMORPG it's about "living" in this fantasy/sci fi or whatever world.
Open world PVP like SWG with it's flag system, Fallen Earth with it's un-instanced PVP zone's that's the PVP I like in my MMORPG. But to run circles in differerent instances taken out of the world is not my idea of MMORPG PVP because I can get that so much better and more exciting for my taste in both FPS and RTS games.
I still believe there is a untapped market to win with a fantasy based online game. A game that does the same thing FPS games do but then with more magic and melee . As for a sci fi oriented MMORPG with PVP then PVP really should be leaps above what is already offered in normal multiplayer games.
The new majority will be the loudest so even if we had a perfect remake of what ever old school game it will remain in the niche segement and the majority will try to "burn" that game down regardless. Not meant for every new majority player.
That's almost every MMO in existence. Either you're not being clear or you're pleading for something that has been the norm for a decade and a half.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think SWG's flagging and TEF system was the pinnacle of Full PVP/PVE sandbox gaming. If you wanted to get involved you could. If not you just bury your nose in the sand and keep on repairing those Blue milk Harvesters...
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Count me in for that crowd.
*I* am not here for *your* amusement. I don't get paid to be *your* content. If you enjoy eating pissy cereal, by all means, eat to your heart's desire. I'll even gladly give you my own bowl of it.
bcbully, I had to read your original post again to get what you saying... You're saying, if a player is only interested in PvE, and ignores 100% the PvP side of the game, should developers keep making PvE content for those PvE ONLY players?
What many took that to mean, myself included, was NO PvE in the game at all. Basically, you're looking for a game that focuses on PvP first, PvE second, or even third. You'd like to see an MMO that has PvP from level 1 and players can focus on that if they desire, as that is the main focus of the game. There would be PvE in the game, but it would not be very good.
I can see a game or three like this, but the whole genre? It could happen...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
It's a business. They should do whatever makes them the most money. The history of the MMO market to date implies that that is games which focus primarily on PvE, but also include optional PvP content. There is only one PvP focused game (EvE) that has achieved player numbers that anyone in the industry would argue are substantial, while there are several primarily PvE games to have done so.
As long as games with unrestricted PvP are so full of delinquent wannabe psychopaths that they end up functionally being forced grouping games just to stay alive, they are going to remain very niche. I really think that is the primary issue people have with unrestricted PvP, it's the fact that it renders solo play largely non-functional, and most players spend a substantial amount of time soloing.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
It comes down to companies make what sells.
If you don't know the answer to a question the answer is money. Simple.
People make what gets them money. End.
Funny...
That's the same way I feel about PVP players and MOBA-style content that's been thrust into MMOs.
People like yourself that hold that exact opinion is why the world is going to shit.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Until people learn to not be asshats when given the freedom to be an asshat, we can't have nice things because of asshats.
Freedom isn't free.
It always costs someone something.
The PvP player's freedom to do PvP things is often at the expense of the PvE player's freedom to do PvE things.
The PvP player forces others into their desired play style. They often take their freedom quite directly from their target.
I realistic, true morality/criminality system that very, very strongly motivated people to NOT be asshats is the only solution.
Something like, PK players who go against the established rule of law in the game are subject to REAL in-game jail time and character permadeath:
The game must clearly state-
1. If you choose to be a criminal, you may face long duration in-game jail time - weeks or even more than a month of forced downtime on that character. No access to log in to the game's server with a jailed character for X amount of time.
2. If you choose to be a murderer, a sociopath, you are subject to permadeath of that character upon capture or player death by a registered bounty hunter.
3. War crimes - even in a state of legal war with a registered faction/alliance/guild etc. the killing of non-combatants is subject to war crimes proceedings, including long duration in-game jail time and/or character permadeath.
It's not an opinion, it's the reality. Whether or not the reality is good or bad, that is an opinion.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
They should just split them into different games like they used to do. Ultima Online was really a PvP game even though there were a few PvE things to do.
Everquest was really a PvE game even though you could dual.
I think there were PvE and PvP servers on both.
I'd rather see developers keep them separate so that there doesn't have to be sacrifices on either side.
PvE has actually been hit quite hard in terms of fun abilities and content being taken away for the sake of PvP balance.
No, not an order of priority.
I'm speaking of systems that are designed for the player who enjoys pve and pvp. A great example of this is the transportation of items. This is not an inherent pvp or pve activity.
Development systems with the player who enjoys all aspects of mmorpgs in mind, versus the "I oooonly PvE" guy.
Well, yeah, the full loot turns me off, because truthfully, I'm going to lose a lot, I pretty much suck at PVP.
But its more than that. While never playing Wushu, what I read about it made it seem like it would have been a decent game for me to play (well, except for the action oriented combat, which I really suck at)
In EVE you can be attacked just about everywhere except when docked in stations. But, due to the punitive police force, in the high sec areas players only get attacked when they are flying something worth the attackers getting punished by Concorde, and usually not flying smart either.
Combine that with the more lawless areas of low sec or 0.0. and I have pretty good control over my losses, avoiding getting killed except on occasion when the risk exceeds the rewards.
Doesn't mean I never go into low sec/0.0, or wormholes, I do it all the time, but know that everyone I meet is likely opponent unless they are flying the allied star next to their names.
I like my PVE and like you have stated, don't mind if the PVP is woven in around it well, such as in EVE. I actually don't like playing on PVE only servers, takes away too much of the challenge, but then again, I don't want to be ganked around every corner.
Weirdly enough, my favorite server in DAOC was the FFA PVP server Mordred, spent most of my time there, even though I'm not a big PVPer. Like you have argued, it was a challenge to complete PVE activities where the enemy could attack at any moment, but again, I still managed to find ways to get 5 characters to 50 at a time when it was a real challenge to do so.
Funny thing about your argument though, if you were to ask some PVE only players, they would bemoan the fact that no developer really creates a PVE only MMO, they are always "ruining" them by catering the the PVP crowd.
I think at the end of the day, unless done very carefully, trying to create a game that blends PVP/PVE together is a fairly rare occurance, only done by EVE, Wushu and a few select titles.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The PVE is terrible in most MMOs.
Best post in this thread.
People want to be asshats without the consequences. That's the problem and goes for both PVE and PVP.
The lack of reputation meaning anything is why we can't have nice things.
Your entire argument is invalid because they CHOOSE to join a game with full pvp. They CHOSE to become a victim. There are those that die and there are those that die with honor in FFA Sandbox. You make that choice on your own.
The only asshats I see are the ones who join a game with a pvp ruleset then cry on forums when someone kills their flower pickin hippy ass.
Those are the true asshats who clearly have some sort of emotional problems or just want to cause problems for sandbox gaming in general. If you don't like it... Don't play it, and don't tell us how to play it.
4. if you choose to be a carebear you should at least face death with some dignity
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
That only makes sense if the "player who enjoys it all" audience is larger than the "I only PvE" audience, which doesn't appear to be the case. But if you want to have a real conversation about how to address the issues you bring up, you have to talk about why the "I only PvE" player exists in the first place, and how to make that player *want* to do more than just PvE. Changing the games without first finding a way to change audience preferences is just a path to failed games.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
It's ok for the computer to kill me, but if a player does it I go crying off to the forums to have pvp removed...
That's the mindset of the PVE only type. What they were even doing in a FFAPVP game in the first place?
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Another example.
I found that I love building. It would be a travesty If this was developed for the pve only player. It should be developed with the pve/pvp player in mind. The player that likes all things in moderation.
Asshats LIKE being asshats.
Hence why game that cater to asshats are always so, so, so very low in population and thus funding, support, quality, etc.
Well, unless you are LoL - but they try more social measures to punish asshats rather than system measures.
And, like Xbox Live, forum moderators, etc.
It's only partially effective.
^ Yup.
Have you guys looked at Life is Feudal. Full PVP, Full Loot, With Very harsh penalties for PKing. Such as red players have a chance depending on their reputation of losing ALL of their skill points on death. Virtually a permadeath system ONLY for Red players.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"