I think you are both saying the same thing " dont cheat". yet people will you see it in real life all the time as well as in games and sports, so it will happan some will cheat some we not. If the game is even partly open to pvp mods then some will cheat, just be ready for it.
The point is there needs to be an official public response covering this extremely toxic subject.
There are untold numbers waiting to make a purchase decision based on the dev teams stance.
The fact that people were even able to access this critical information to begin with has a lot of us wondering where the dev team is going with these "mods".
A simple post on this matter seems prudent at this point.
I'm genuinely shocked to see objections to community mods on a forum full of ES fans
Massively powerful community mods are a defining feature of the ES games throughout the series...
Player created addons are pretty much par for the course in mmorpgs...more games support them than not. So what are we saying here exactly, we don't want ESO to be faithful to it's franchise? We don't want industry standard mmorpg features in the game?
Nobody is forcing you to use mods, however if others would like to use them what you are essentially saying is "I dont want to use it so dont let anyone use it"...
Perhaps I think Naga style mice give you an advantage over me with my standard 5 button mouse, shall I petition Bethesda to put some code in to stop you using Naga style mice because I choose not to?
Driz
Do you even know what the main idea is behind this topic? Everyone loves the mods and want them alot just don't want the pvp mods that are basically cheating.
My solution is allow them to use these mods that allow you to cheat in pvp but also as you say allow me to use a mod that keeps my character info private so they aren't an issue to me either.
People that object to this idea know they cannot compete with me because they can't see what I'm doing and my info on my build real time in combat.
Need I say more?
So you agree we should all be able to use mods right?
I'm actually a bit confused with this. Apologies if I'm not picking this up very quickly (also watching the Real Madrid match in my defense :-).
You say that you want all mods available to players apart from the ones that show other players stats and skill actions. Is that right?
I strongly support all mods and modders except the ones that are clear pvp exploits and cheating. It is basically what this entire thread covers.
Considering PvP is the end game for ESO it will basically destroy the game long term so yeah that is the center of this discussion.
People that desperately need these cheats are throwing up that we are attacking all mods and using smoke and mirror bullshit to cover their tracks in the process so that is probably what confused you.
The focus of the discussion right now seems to be your personal opinion that any PvP related game mod is a cheat or an exploit. This is not the case and never has been, no matter how much you would like that to be the case.
Sure some mods will push the boundary of being a hack/cheat/exploit and those will be shut down by the devs.
You do not get to police this and/or define what is and what is not considered cheating.
Games like SWTOR have zero mod support and are still brimming with speed hacks, teleport hacks etc etc in their PvP warzones. A knee jerk reaction and blanket banning of mods that are PvP related will not stop cheaters in PvP, therefore why are you wanting them removed?
Your personal dislike of addons and your personal opinion that any and all PvP focused addons = cheat is no reason to remove them lock stock and barrel.
I think you will find the vast majority of competetive PvPers will WANT them, along with multi spec switching/respecs on the fly etc etc.
The problem with Mods is game/skill/ability, monster, boss updates will then tend to be based around players with Mods. This then means for mob/boss encounters better mods will be wanted, balance will be adjusted to the new modded play type .. so on and so forth.
You may think this wrong but games get balanced around the max level players and their skill/damage .. which as it seems some will be running mods and then they'll be fully modded guilds. It'll probably get based further and further away from those who just run as is .. so to speak.
Thats just the thing, no post in this thread has given any examples of what exactly these mods in question are doing?
Excume me? I myself posted SEVERAL examples of what these mods are doing and their implications on game play. Have you been reading the posts in this thread at all?
As someone else has mentioned, ES type mods are famously the "Drop me a backpack with all the best gear in game in it, right outside my house" type mods....those clearly would be OP and unbalanced in a gear progression based MMORPG.
I'm sorry, but what the heck does this have to do with the discussion at hand? Nobody is talking about God mods or anything of the sort. I can't even understand why you thought such a thing was relevant.
Most replies in this thread are knee jerk "No addons" demands that don't really provide any further information.
On the contrary, there have been many detailed posts filled with examples and good points have been brought up for discussion. Again, I have to question if you have read the thread.
Of course, I too would be opposed to some god power mod that allows you to teleport around the map and insta kill people like true elder scrolls games have, however if we are saying the general consensus is no mods ala range meters, dps meters, gear checks etc purely because a select few "choose" not to use them and the key phrase here is "choose not to" then I cannot get on board with this
Again, nobody is talking about God mods or anything of sort. We are this far into the discussion and you are talking about DPS meters????? Holy crap dude, you clearly have not read the thread.
And if Zeni/Bethesda did not want us to use this data to improve our skills and game experience they would not have made this level of data available in the API. They can choose to add in functionality and break addon functionality as they see fit. It is not an all or nothing approach. If modders have access to a certain element of data currently its because the devs intended them to.
Companies are prone to make wrong decisions, and usually they receive criticism because of it, and if they are in a position to do something about it, they go back and rectify their mistakes. The same way ZeniMax Online said there would be no first-person and no collision detection, players complained, and now the game will feature both. I have already dismantled this argument of yours in a previous post however, but I suppose YOU DIDN'T READ THE THREAD!
We should be using and playing the game as it is intended, not demanding the game is changed to suit our every little personal desire and opinion....imo of course
Yea, because ZeniMax Online has clearly shown that they are not willing to accept any sort of criticism and go back and change anything based on feedback, right?
If the devs decide that any one feature or peice of data becomes game breaking they can remove or break its functionality...they are the ones who define what is and is not acceptable.
Exactly, they are in a position to change this, and that is why it is our responsibility as customers to criticize the product in attempt to get their attention to make it better.
Like I said where does it end? Shall I petition the devs to remove support for Naga style mice? I choose not to use one and therefore anyone who does use one has an competetive advantage over me?
By your rationale I would not be at all petty in demanding this feature is removed to ensure that I have a level playing field.
The devs added in software code to support the use of Naga style devices. Therefore they intended them to be an option for the playerbase....the devs added in the scope of API functionality that they intended to be available to the playerbase aswell...
You have used this argument before, and I have already shown its flaw, but I suppose you selectively read things or something.
Driz
"Driz", for the sake of this discussion, try to read the thread in its entirety, try to acknowledge and discuss some of the points I and some other people have brought up in an objective manner, and please don't repeat the use flawed arguments that have already been dismantled.
Thats just the thing, no post in this thread has given any examples of what exactly these mods in question are doing?
Excume me? I myself posted SEVERAL examples of what these mods are doing and their implications on game play. Have you been reading the posts in this thread at all?
As someone else has mentioned, ES type mods are famously the "Drop me a backpack with all the best gear in game in it, right outside my house" type mods....those clearly would be OP and unbalanced in a gear progression based MMORPG.
I'm sorry, but what the heck does this have to do with the discussion at hand? Nobody is talking about God mods or anything of the sort. I can't even understand why you thought such a thing was relevant.
Most replies in this thread are knee jerk "No addons" demands that don't really provide any further information.
On the contrary, there have been many detailed posts filled with examples and good points have been brought up for discussion. Again, I have to question if you have read the thread.
Of course, I too would be opposed to some god power mod that allows you to teleport around the map and insta kill people like true elder scrolls games have, however if we are saying the general consensus is no mods ala range meters, dps meters, gear checks etc purely because a select few "choose" not to use them and the key phrase here is "choose not to" then I cannot get on board with this
Again, nobody is talking about God mods or anything of sort. We are this far into the discussion and you are talking about DPS meters????? Holy crap dude, you clearly have not read the thread.
And if Zeni/Bethesda did not want us to use this data to improve our skills and game experience they would not have made this level of data available in the API. They can choose to add in functionality and break addon functionality as they see fit. It is not an all or nothing approach. If modders have access to a certain element of data currently its because the devs intended them to.
Companies are prone to make wrong decisions, and usually they receive criticism because of it, and if they are in a position to do something about it, they go back and rectify their mistakes. The same way ZeniMax Online said there would be no first-person and no collision detection, players complained, and now the game will feature both. I have already dismantled this argument of yours in a previous post however, but I suppose YOU DIDN'T READ THE THREAD!
We should be using and playing the game as it is intended, not demanding the game is changed to suit our every little personal desire and opinion....imo of course
Yea, because ZeniMax Online has clearly shown that they are not willing to accept any sort of criticism and go back and change anything based on feedback, right?
If the devs decide that any one feature or peice of data becomes game breaking they can remove or break its functionality...they are the ones who define what is and is not acceptable.
Exactly, they are in a position to change this, and that is why it is our responsibility as customers to criticize the product in attempt to get their attention to make it better.
Like I said where does it end? Shall I petition the devs to remove support for Naga style mice? I choose not to use one and therefore anyone who does use one has an competetive advantage over me?
By your rationale I would not be at all petty in demanding this feature is removed to ensure that I have a level playing field.
The devs added in software code to support the use of Naga style devices. Therefore they intended them to be an option for the playerbase....the devs added in the scope of API functionality that they intended to be available to the playerbase aswell...
You have used this argument before, and I have already shown its flaw, but I suppose you selectively read things or something.
Driz
"Driz", for the sake of this discussion, try to read the thread in its entirety, try to acknowledge and discuss some of the points I and some other people have brought up in an objective manner, and please don't repeat the use flawed arguments that have already been dismantled.
Thanks
You know how in Skyrim you can walk in a storekeepers place and put a pot over the npcs head then steal everything.
I think someone might have a kettle on their head.
I don't see why people that don't like them can't simply just not use them. Back when I played WoW, I could perform just as well without ADDONS as without them. Instead of simply not using them, they have to make it so that other players also cannot use them.
Originally posted by Saxx0n You know how in Skyrim you can walk in a storekeepers place and put a pot over the npcs head then steal everything.I think someone might have a kettle on their head.
So, when are YOU going to take the kettle off your head?
Its quite clear that you are unwilling to acknowledge any argument that does not support your opinion.
Originally posted by timidobserver I don't see why people that don't like them can't simply just not use them. Back when I played WoW, I could perform just as well without ADDONS as without them. Instead of simply not using them, they have to make it so that other players also cannot use them.
In a PVP focused end game you can't simply "not" use them unless you don't are about losing. Becuase the people with the mods will have an upper hand that you will not have unless you also use them and see the behind the scenes things you don't normally see.
With free form targeting or anything other than a 1v1 how would the UI mod know which target cast bar, HP, mana, etc to display? Display ALL THE BARS!!! or what?
On the other hand, if you get a benefit from seeing the enemy cast bar that the in-world animation doesn't give you, hasn't the design failed? If that opposing DK goes for a big overhand attack that has a 1sec wind-up, but the animation only shows you what's about to hit you after 0.25sec, then a castbar would give you an extra 0.25sec to react and be pretty much mandatory.
With free form targeting or anything other than a 1v1 how would the UI mod know which target cast bar, HP, mana, etc to display? Display ALL THE BARS!!! or what?
On the other hand, if you get a benefit from seeing the enemy cast bar that the in-world animation doesn't give you, hasn't the design failed? If that opposing DK goes for a big overhand attack that has a 1sec wind-up, but the animation only shows you what's about to hit you after 0.25sec, then a castbar would give you an extra 0.25sec to react and be pretty much mandatory.
It is not free form. The game makes use of a soft-target system. You can also hit Tab and definitively target an enemy. If you have played DDO, it is very similar to that. What this means is that it becomes very easy to track some very important information using add-ons about a target that would otherwise be unknown.
Regarding your other point, there are many spells like the second heal in the Templar's healing tree which have a "charge-up" animation. Meaning, once you activate it, your character maintains the same pose with his hand during the entirety of the cast time, and unless your enemy knows exactly when the animation ends, he can't precisely attempt an interrupt-like counter. Meaning, (this is an example) one player may see an enemy templar's cast animation, but since said player does not know that the spell will be cast in about .5 seconds, and his attempt to interrupt will take approximately 1 second to successfully pull off considering he has to close a small distance as well, he will unsuccessfully attempt to interrupt the spell even though he saw the animation.
On the other hand, if said player had access to an add-on that told him that the cast time for the spell had only .5 seconds remaining, he would know beforehand that he would not have enough time to interrupt it, and would then choose to do something else in order to optimize his efficiency in combat.
Thank you for all of your work bringing this issue to light we will do our best to see that something is done about the issues you are speaking about. We would also like to keep our design philosophy in mind and do not encourage the use of mod's to gain advantages in pvp putting the work of other players to naught. Thank you for your continued interest and support!
Originally posted by timidobserver I don't see why people that don't like them can't simply just not use them. Back when I played WoW, I could perform just as well without ADDONS as without them. Instead of simply not using them, they have to make it so that other players also cannot use them.
Did you raid in a top end guild? If you had I am sure you would not have been able to preform as well without them as with them. I have seen content in EQ2 designed with triggers and raid frame mods in mind. I don't raid in WoW but my understanding is much of the highest end content is the same way. If a developer is going to create content to challenge the top 5% of their player base and that group uses a small number of popular mods then they will naturally tailor the content towards them.
Not to mention the impact it has on player experience in PVP. If Zenimax designs a PVP experience around the base UI with things like not knowing your enemy's class and someone comes out with a mod that lets you know that class than they have changed the entire feel of the activity away from what the developers intended.
Like it or not mods will affect the way future content in ESO is designed and implemented. And it will affect the outcome of PVP matches. I'm not anti mod but I do think player information should be disabled by default with the option to let the player enable it for everyone, faction only, or friends. Mod's that use data from the environment and NPC's will only affect the most competitive PVE players so it's player data that I"m the most concerned with.
Thank you for all of your work bringing this issue to light we will do our best to see that something is done about the issues you are speaking about. We would also like to keep our design philosophy in mind and do not encourage the use of mod's to gain advantages in pvp putting the work of other players to naught. Thank you for your continued interest and support!
Warm Regards, The Elder Scrolls Online Team
This is a legit reply from my email.
Feel free to copy / paste this to other boards!
They have heard our concerns.
Very cool. Now, what remains to be seen is what exactly they do about this issue.
Originally posted by timidobserver I don't see why people that don't like them can't simply just not use them. Back when I played WoW, I could perform just as well without ADDONS as without them. Instead of simply not using them, they have to make it so that other players also cannot use them.
In a PVP focused end game you can't simply "not" use them unless you don't are about losing. Becuase the people with the mods will have an upper hand that you will not have unless you also use them and see the behind the scenes things you don't normally see.
I don't really buy this. As a primary PVPer in MMOs, I am sure that a player can hone their skills to the point that they can overcome any mod. That said, I am all for limiting the viability of mods to impact PVP too significantly. I was referring primarily to PVE focused mods.
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by timidobserver I don't see why people that don't like them can't simply just not use them. Back when I played WoW, I could perform just as well without ADDONS as without them. Instead of simply not using them, they have to make it so that other players also cannot use them.
Did you raid in a top end guild? If you had I am sure you would not have been able to preform as well without them as with them. I have seen content in EQ2 designed with triggers and raid frame mods in mind. I don't raid in WoW but my understanding is much of the highest end content is the same way. If a developer is going to create content to challenge the top 5% of their player base and that group uses a small number of popular mods then they will naturally tailor the content towards them.
Not to mention the impact it has on player experience in PVP. If Zenimax designs a PVP experience around the base UI with things like not knowing your enemy's class and someone comes out with a mod that lets you know that class than they have changed the entire feel of the activity away from what the developers intended.
Like it or not mods will affect the way future content in ESO is designed and implemented. And it will affect the outcome of PVP matches. I'm not anti mod but I do think player information should be disabled by default with the option to let the player enable it for everyone, faction only, or friends. Mod's that use data from the environment and NPC's will only affect the most competitive PVE players so it's player data that I"m the most concerned with.
I was in an endgame guild that managed to clear all content progression without difficulty. I didn't have any issue keeping up without mods.
I am fine with disabling player data. I am definitely against any mod advantage In PVP. The people I have an issue with are the people that are against mods entirely. However, I can understand wanting to limit what they can do.
Comments
"I strongly support all mods and modders except the ones that are clear pvp exploits and cheating. It is basically what this entire thread covers.
Considering PvP is the end game for ESO it will basically destroy the game long term so yeah that is the center of this discussion".
Thanks for the clarification. And Real Madrid 6-1 :-)
The focus of the discussion right now seems to be your personal opinion that any PvP related game mod is a cheat or an exploit. This is not the case and never has been, no matter how much you would like that to be the case.
Sure some mods will push the boundary of being a hack/cheat/exploit and those will be shut down by the devs.
You do not get to police this and/or define what is and what is not considered cheating.
Games like SWTOR have zero mod support and are still brimming with speed hacks, teleport hacks etc etc in their PvP warzones. A knee jerk reaction and blanket banning of mods that are PvP related will not stop cheaters in PvP, therefore why are you wanting them removed?
Your personal dislike of addons and your personal opinion that any and all PvP focused addons = cheat is no reason to remove them lock stock and barrel.
I think you will find the vast majority of competetive PvPers will WANT them, along with multi spec switching/respecs on the fly etc etc.
Driz
The problem with Mods is game/skill/ability, monster, boss updates will then tend to be based around players with Mods. This then means for mob/boss encounters better mods will be wanted, balance will be adjusted to the new modded play type .. so on and so forth.
You may think this wrong but games get balanced around the max level players and their skill/damage .. which as it seems some will be running mods and then they'll be fully modded guilds. It'll probably get based further and further away from those who just run as is .. so to speak.
You know how in Skyrim you can walk in a storekeepers place and put a pot over the npcs head then steal everything.
I think someone might have a kettle on their head.
Life IS Feudal
Its quite clear that you are unwilling to acknowledge any argument that does not support your opinion.
In a PVP focused end game you can't simply "not" use them unless you don't are about losing. Becuase the people with the mods will have an upper hand that you will not have unless you also use them and see the behind the scenes things you don't normally see.
With free form targeting or anything other than a 1v1 how would the UI mod know which target cast bar, HP, mana, etc to display? Display ALL THE BARS!!! or what?
On the other hand, if you get a benefit from seeing the enemy cast bar that the in-world animation doesn't give you, hasn't the design failed? If that opposing DK goes for a big overhand attack that has a 1sec wind-up, but the animation only shows you what's about to hit you after 0.25sec, then a castbar would give you an extra 0.25sec to react and be pretty much mandatory.
It is not free form. The game makes use of a soft-target system. You can also hit Tab and definitively target an enemy. If you have played DDO, it is very similar to that. What this means is that it becomes very easy to track some very important information using add-ons about a target that would otherwise be unknown.
Regarding your other point, there are many spells like the second heal in the Templar's healing tree which have a "charge-up" animation. Meaning, once you activate it, your character maintains the same pose with his hand during the entirety of the cast time, and unless your enemy knows exactly when the animation ends, he can't precisely attempt an interrupt-like counter. Meaning, (this is an example) one player may see an enemy templar's cast animation, but since said player does not know that the spell will be cast in about .5 seconds, and his attempt to interrupt will take approximately 1 second to successfully pull off considering he has to close a small distance as well, he will unsuccessfully attempt to interrupt the spell even though he saw the animation.
On the other hand, if said player had access to an add-on that told him that the cast time for the spell had only .5 seconds remaining, he would know beforehand that he would not have enough time to interrupt it, and would then choose to do something else in order to optimize his efficiency in combat.
This is a legit reply from my email.
Feel free to copy / paste this to other boards!
They have heard our concerns.
Did you raid in a top end guild? If you had I am sure you would not have been able to preform as well without them as with them. I have seen content in EQ2 designed with triggers and raid frame mods in mind. I don't raid in WoW but my understanding is much of the highest end content is the same way. If a developer is going to create content to challenge the top 5% of their player base and that group uses a small number of popular mods then they will naturally tailor the content towards them.
Not to mention the impact it has on player experience in PVP. If Zenimax designs a PVP experience around the base UI with things like not knowing your enemy's class and someone comes out with a mod that lets you know that class than they have changed the entire feel of the activity away from what the developers intended.
Like it or not mods will affect the way future content in ESO is designed and implemented. And it will affect the outcome of PVP matches. I'm not anti mod but I do think player information should be disabled by default with the option to let the player enable it for everyone, faction only, or friends. Mod's that use data from the environment and NPC's will only affect the most competitive PVE players so it's player data that I"m the most concerned with.
Very cool. Now, what remains to be seen is what exactly they do about this issue.
I don't really buy this. As a primary PVPer in MMOs, I am sure that a player can hone their skills to the point that they can overcome any mod. That said, I am all for limiting the viability of mods to impact PVP too significantly. I was referring primarily to PVE focused mods.
I was in an endgame guild that managed to clear all content progression without difficulty. I didn't have any issue keeping up without mods.
I am fine with disabling player data. I am definitely against any mod advantage In PVP. The people I have an issue with are the people that are against mods entirely. However, I can understand wanting to limit what they can do.