For me the most cut and dry way to look at it is if you log off in one spot of a game and then log on to that same spot on another server, will you just see the same things? In ESO the answer is yes. In a sandbox game the answer is generally no.
While this is true on most games, it is not a definitive approach. In GW2, you could log out in one spot on a server, and log in on another and the place you logged in could be different.
My point all along, is YOU the player make it a sandbox. How you play individually make it a sandbox. In WoW, people call it themepark because you go from quest hub to quest hub to level up..... Could you forgo quests and just kill mobs and level? Yup you could, no one is making you quest. Could you level by PVP, yup you could.... no one is making you PVE.
The bottom line is PEOPLE make games sandbox. Developers can either give you tools or not give you tools, but you can still do SANDBOX-LIKE things in games. No game is really sandbox.
That is, until you develop you own game to play how you want to play.
Content creation does not mean physical content. That's why I prefer to think of sandboxes as requiring entertainment/activity creation in order to have something to do in the game.
So what game doesn't have this?
In EQ, I held player driven quests where I would send players on quests to retrieve an item, then give them rewards.
I did the same thing in WOW, RIFT, etc
EVERYGAME can be sandbox by that definition...
The term sandbox, in relation to MMO's, did not even come around until way after WOW, as people were trying to "hate" on the games being developed. That is why I loathe people using that term, as it doesn't even mean what they want it to mean. And in the MMO realm, it will never be accomplished.
Nope, every game doesn't have this. Almost every game is the opposite - it gives you stuff to do. The sandbox is the game that doesn't give you stuff to do. That's why I specifically said "REQUIRING entertainment/activity creation IN ORDER TO HAVE SOMETHING TO DO in the game".
Sure in EQ you held player driven quests. People in WoW did this too. But EQ and WoW gave you stuff to do. You didn't have to make your own entertainment to be entertained.
The more video's and reviews I've seen has peeked my interest. I was pretty cold on the game but the more I've seen the more I like it. I love the freedom they give you with almost everything.
I know it's a suppose to be a Themepark MMO, but the more I see and read it really doesn't feel like it's on rails like your traditional themeparks? Am I wrong in this or is this what it turns out to be at level 50.
It seems like Zenimax kept the openess of the Elder scrolls with this game.
Thanks!
As other posters have said, ignore the extremes. This game exists in the grey area between themepark and sandbox.
Best comparison I can say would be to view it similar to elder scrolls games or GW2. All are themeparks, but they focus on freedom & exploration over linear progression. And I think that's the key difference. The standard themepark focuses on linear progression. The focus is always on 'get better stuff'.
In ESO, there is a little of that, but the focus seems more to be on customization, acquiring new skills (tools) to diversify you're builds. Getting the right enchants / enhancements for your gear to compliment what you're doing. Maybe you're a heavy-armored mage, and thus have naturally poor mana regen? Fix it by adding mana leech enchantments to your stuff, to gain mana from attacking. That's just one of many examples.
Not unlike GW2, lvling to max (50) doesn't take very long. I think the first 50 will be out in ~3days from early-access. However, similar to games like GW2 (and elderscrolls) the game doesn't just 'stop' because you hit max lvl. It opens up, there's pleanty of choices to make. PvP, dungeons, world bosses, adventure zones, etc. Whereas with most themeparks you hit endgame and it's either raid, or do battlegrounds. And that's pretty much it.
So, yes, the game is still very much a themepark. But it's a themepark that is based around giving players options, rather than guiding them down a narrow path of content.
For me the most cut and dry way to look at it is if you log off in one spot of a game and then log on to that same spot on another server, will you just see the same things? In ESO the answer is yes. In a sandbox game the answer is generally no.
While this is true on most games, it is not a definitive approach. In GW2, you could log out in one spot on a server, and log in on another and the place you logged in could be different.
My point all along, is YOU the player make it a sandbox. How you play individually make it a sandbox. In WoW, people call it themepark because you go from quest hub to quest hub to level up..... Could you forgo quests and just kill mobs and level? Yup you could, no one is making you quest. Could you level by PVP, yup you could.... no one is making you PVE.
The bottom line is PEOPLE make games sandbox. Developers can either give you tools or not give you tools, but you can still do SANDBOX-LIKE things in games. No game is really sandbox.
That is, until you develop you own game to play how you want to play.
I'm sorry sir, but you are very much mistaken.
The problem is you are trying to argue middle-ground games using extremist terms. Sandbox & Themepark are 2 extremes of the same problem. The reason they are named the way they are is this:
Themepark, is designed (like a themepark) with a series of content (rides) for you to pick from. You can't ever change what those rides are, but you can pick ones you partake in.
Sandbox is literally nothing. It's a box of sand. If you want any content you have to build it yourself. This is why a game like Minecraft is a sandbox, and WoW is not. WoW gives you a series of provided content to choose from. Minecraft says 'here, build it yourself'.
Games like GW2 and ESO exist in between both extremes. Some might call them 'Themeboxes'. They offer more freedom & choice than your standard themepark, but you are still limited in the sense that you can't really create your own content.
** Another way of looking at this is that Sandbox games are focused around a core gameplay of gathering & building (it's based on resource management). Themeparks are games more around going out and 'finding things to do'.
It seems to me it's more 'Everquest' than 'WoW'. It still a themepark but it gives you much more freedom than a lot of themepark mmo's from the past 5 years.
I can agree with all of that.
Originally posted by fs23otm
This is so wrong. If that was the case name one true "Sandbox" game other then Minecraft.
Sandbox <> content creation
Sandbox can have content creation, but that does not define it. There are no Sandbox MMO's... there are sandbox like mmo's.
You have to start by looking at the analogy. What is a sandbox? It's a box full of sand, with tools in it that allow you to shape the sand into something that wasn't there before you entered the sandbox, with the only limits being your imagination and the capabilities of the tools. Content creation (we could argue about how broadly or loosely to define "content") is not just an essential element of the sandbox designation, it is the *only* element of that designation. If you remove content creation from the equation, the analogy no longer makes any sense because all you have is a bunch of sand that you can't do anything with, and applying the word sandbox to the game in question works about as well as calling it widget or weinerschnitzel.
Originally posted by fs23otm
By that definition, Neverwinter is a sandbox.
Sandbox-Like describes all the games you listed. You don't get to design the skills in the games, you don't get to design the terrain, you don't get to mod the armor or effects.
The Foundry portion of Neverwinter is a sandbox. There are no "pure" sandbox games, just games that focus more or less on sandbox elements. Neverwinter has more sandbox than SWG ever did, because the only thing you could create in SWG was urban sprawl, in Neverwinter you can actually create quests.
Originally posted by fs23otm
While this is true on most games, it is not a definitive approach. In GW2, you could log out in one spot on a server, and log in on another and the place you logged in could be different.
My point all along, is YOU the player make it a sandbox. How you play individually make it a sandbox. In WoW, people call it themepark because you go from quest hub to quest hub to level up..... Could you forgo quests and just kill mobs and level? Yup you could, no one is making you quest. Could you level by PVP, yup you could.... no one is making you PVE.
The bottom line is PEOPLE make games sandbox. Developers can either give you tools or not give you tools, but you can still do SANDBOX-LIKE things in games. No game is really sandbox.
That is, until you develop you own game to play how you want to play.
"Sandbox" is a designation that applies to the game, not the player, and only applies if content creation tools are present. Killing boars in a forest instead of doing quests is not "sandbox" unless there is tool that allows you to actually create a quest that consists of killing boars in the forest. It's just deciding to hang out in one portion of the themepark instead of different portion of the themepark. The mobs you are killing are still static spawns that will always be in exactly the same area where you killed them, the only difference between grinding and questing is that the grinding is slower and doesn't have any text box pop-ups.
All games have themepark elements. Most games do not have sandbox elements, and ignoring some of the rides in a themepark doesn't magically turn it into a sandbox.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
It seems to me it's more 'Everquest' than 'WoW'. It still a themepark but it gives you much more freedom than a lot of themepark mmo's from the past 5 years.
One thing that I feel needs mentioning is the fact that there is no end-game pve.
Sure there is content that takes you well beyond 50 that is repeatable but at this time there is no value in grinding it and no gear progression grind whatsoever.
Cyrodil is the endgame in RvR warfare that is persistent 24/7 with matches lasting I believe 3 months at a time.
Originally posted by CazNeerg Themepark just means it relies on static content created by the developers. Since there are no tools for players to create their own content, it's not at all sandbox, so it would be 100% themepark.
I love how some people see in only black and white.
There are many sandboxy features to the game. They might not be 100% sandbox, but they are still there to see. Things like public dungeons, open world PvP, deeper crafting, complex character creation tools, and a pretty complex skill system and the questing system come to mind rather quickly.
Those things are systems that you'd find in more of a sandbox game. Allowing players to shape the world isn't the only sandbox definition.
The guy is LOADED with instancing and phasing, so nothing you do really impacts the game world. There is a more or less linear level path and a linear scripted storyline. There's no death penalty. There's a GPS map telling you where everything is. The only thing that's not super themepark about it are the classes, which are somewhat open ended.
I believe they are pve zones but little else is known about them at this time. They may have more repeatable content but that is only speculation at this point.
Originally posted by CazNeerg Themepark just means it relies on static content created by the developers. Since there are no tools for players to create their own content, it's not at all sandbox, so it would be 100% themepark.
I love how some people see in only black and white.
There are many sandboxy features to the game. They might not be 100% sandbox, but they are still there to see. Things like public dungeons, open world PvP, deeper crafting, complex character creation tools, and a pretty complex skill system and the questing system come to mind rather quickly.
Are you out of your mind?
Public dungeons aren't sandbox features. The "original themepark" EverQuest had public dungeons. There is nothing sandbox about them. RvR is ALSO not sandbox, no one EVER called Dark Age of Camelot or GW2 sandboxes. If you could build wherever you want, maybe, but you can't. Having crafting != sandbox. Whether it is deeper or not (which it isn't really). Complex character creation tools? You mean, the same one used in just about every MMO? And complex questing? WHAT? The questing is IDENTICAL to questing in WoW and its clones. The ONLY thing even remotely sandbox is the skill system.
The more video's and reviews I've seen has peeked my interest. I was pretty cold on the game but the more I've seen the more I like it. I love the freedom they give you with almost everything.
I know it's a suppose to be a Themepark MMO, but the more I see and read it really doesn't feel like it's on rails like your traditional themeparks? Am I wrong in this or is this what it turns out to be at level 50.
It seems like Zenimax kept the openess of the Elder scrolls with this game.
Thanks!
i have been in the last 3 beta tests, and will be in the this weekend. you have 3 different alliances..you choose an alliance you would like to start out with, then you create a character. that character will play in one alliance till you reach level 50. when you reach level 50 you can start doing things in one of the other alliances till you reach 50+, then you you can go to the last alliance till you become 50++, there will be tons to do after you reach level 50..they will have what they are calling 'adventure zones" also their version of "raids". plus, the world will have massive places not yet filled in with content, which will be added as the game goes along with even more content. Also dont forget, when your character reaches level 10, you can go to the PVP zone and fight for your alliance, which the PVP zone also has PVE content.
Now, this MMO is a Themepark MMO, you cant create something that wasnt already in the game. but it isnt on rails at all..where most MMO's direct you where to go from point to point (WOW). You can actually just ignore a quest marker and head in a direction on the map and find tons of things to do..they encourage exploration in this game unlike most MMO's..for example, i wondered off in a direction that was just blank on my map, i ended up finding a hidden cave that had "unique" crafting tables where i could make a named armor set. you will also find locked chests all over if you explore the land, and on and on
so in my opinion it is a mix of the single player TES games and an MMO, which is very hard to do but Zenimax has done a fine job doing so. I havent been this excited for a new MMO for a very very long time, but dont take my word for it, try it out for yourself. but dont go by the beta tests..for example, this weekends test is purely a stress test of the servers and it will not be a current build of the game, that is still being tested on the private test server. wait till the final version of the game is released then judge this game. hope i helped
I love how some people see in only black and white.
There are many sandboxy features to the game. They might not be 100% sandbox, but they are still there to see. Things like public dungeons, open world PvP, deeper crafting, complex character creation tools, and a pretty complex skill system and the questing system come to mind rather quickly.
Those things are systems that you'd find in more of a sandbox game. Allowing players to shape the world isn't the only sandbox definition.
It's not about black and white. It's about using words in a way that is actually consistent with the definition of the word. A lot of people (you appear to be one of them) treat sandbox like it is a synonym for "open world." It isn't. The fact that most games with sandbox features tend to be open world does not mean that any open world game is a sandbox.
Please, go back to the analogies. A sandbox consists of sand and tools. A themepark consists of rides that don't change over time. Pretty much every single thing you listed was a piece of static content (rides) designed by the developer.
People really need to stop abusing language. Most of the time when people are arguing about whether to label a game as a themepark or sandbox what they are actually arguing about is which kind of themepark it is. "I like my static content to look like X, not Y!"
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Originally posted by CazNeerg Themepark just means it relies on static content created by the developers. Since there are no tools for players to create their own content, it's not at all sandbox, so it would be 100% themepark.
I love how some people see in only black and white.
There are many sandboxy features to the game. They might not be 100% sandbox, but they are still there to see. Things like public dungeons, open world PvP, deeper crafting, complex character creation tools, and a pretty complex skill system and the questing system come to mind rather quickly.
Are you out of your mind?
Public dungeons aren't sandbox features. The "original themepark" EverQuest had public dungeons. There is nothing sandbox about them. RvR is ALSO not sandbox, no one EVER called Dark Age of Camelot or GW2 sandboxes. If you could build wherever you want, maybe, but you can't. Having crafting != sandbox. Whether it is deeper or not (which it isn't really). Complex character creation tools? You mean, the same one used in just about every MMO? And complex questing? WHAT? The questing is IDENTICAL to questing in WoW and its clones. The ONLY thing even remotely sandbox is the skill system.
i wouldnt say the questing is "exactly like wow"...wow has more "fetch it" quest than i can even remember..and this game is fully voiced. the only way you can compare ESO to wow is that they are both MMO's, thats where the comparison ends..thank god
Originally posted by fs23otm Originally posted by Ender4For me the most cut and dry way to look at it is if you log off in one spot of a game and then log on to that same spot on another server, will you just see the same things? In ESO the answer is yes. In a sandbox game the answer is generally no.
While this is true on most games, it is not a definitive approach. In GW2, you could log out in one spot on a server, and log in on another and the place you logged in could be different.
My point all along, is YOU the player make it a sandbox. How you play individually make it a sandbox. In WoW, people call it themepark because you go from quest hub to quest hub to level up..... Could you forgo quests and just kill mobs and level? Yup you could, no one is making you quest. Could you level by PVP, yup you could.... no one is making you PVE.
The bottom line is PEOPLE make games sandbox. Developers can either give you tools or not give you tools, but you can still do SANDBOX-LIKE things in games. No game is really sandbox.
That is, until you develop you own game to play how you want to play.
Well if you stand there for 5 minutes it becomes true. GW2's answer to the themepark was to chain some events together to try to make the world dynamic. It fails pretty miserably. In a real sandbox like say EQN is trying to be you could log into that same spot on two servers and have no idea what you are going to see because the world is being molded by the players.
Originally posted by CazNeerg Themepark just means it relies on static content created by the developers. Since there are no tools for players to create their own content, it's not at all sandbox, so it would be 100% themepark.
I love how some people see in only black and white.
There are many sandboxy features to the game. They might not be 100% sandbox, but they are still there to see. Things like public dungeons, open world PvP, deeper crafting, complex character creation tools, and a pretty complex skill system and the questing system come to mind rather quickly.
Are you out of your mind?
Public dungeons aren't sandbox features. The "original themepark" EverQuest had public dungeons. There is nothing sandbox about them. RvR is ALSO not sandbox, no one EVER called Dark Age of Camelot or GW2 sandboxes. If you could build wherever you want, maybe, but you can't. Having crafting != sandbox. Whether it is deeper or not (which it isn't really). Complex character creation tools? You mean, the same one used in just about every MMO? And complex questing? WHAT? The questing is IDENTICAL to questing in WoW and its clones. The ONLY thing even remotely sandbox is the skill system.
i wouldnt say the questing is "exactly like wow"...wow has more "fetch it" quest than i can even remember..and this game is fully voiced. the only way you can compare ESO to wow is that they are both MMO's, thats where the comparison ends..thank god
That's not where all the comparison ends. The GPS map telling you where stuff is, the hand holding, the instancing, the phasing, the lack of death penalty, all stems from WoW.
But no, the quests DO feel more organic, and the saving grace of this game's PvE is that the fastest way to level is by grouping and hunting mobs, not grinding quests.
Not very much. The game is focused on open world exploration, free roaming combat and adventure. The only "themepark" elements are the quest system and possibly the dungeon set up depending on how you look at it.
I would say it's a hybrid of the two, more leaning towards sandbox. They give a lot more freedom of what to do than say, GW2 or WoW, but not just throwing you into the world and saying good luck like other ES single player games or DAoC did.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Not very much. The game is focused on open world exploration, free roaming combat and adventure. The only "themepark" elements are the quest system and possibly the dungeon set up depending on how you look at it. And the lack of death penalty or actual danger, the way the zones are funneled and linear, the amount of phasing there is, the safety rails...
I would say it's a hybrid of the two, more leaning towards sandbox. How the fuck is it a sandbox? In ANY way? Can you build things? Is there player made content? Is there no leveling path? Are all the dungeons uninstanced? No. The only thing they really have is the skill system. They give a lot more freedom of what to do than say, GW2 or WoW, but not just throwing you into the world and saying good luck like other ES single player games or DAoC did. Nobody in their right mind EVER called DAoC a sandbox, and you're saying this is LESS sandbox than DAoC, but still a sandbox? And the last ES game to toss you out and say "Good luck" was Morrowind. Oblivion and Skyrim had painfully long "You are the chosen one" intros.
Originally posted by CazNeerg Themepark just means it relies on static content created by the developers. Since there are no tools for players to create their own content, it's not at all sandbox, so it would be 100% themepark.
I love how some people see in only black and white.
There are many sandboxy features to the game. They might not be 100% sandbox, but they are still there to see. Things like public dungeons, open world PvP, deeper crafting, complex character creation tools, and a pretty complex skill system and the questing system come to mind rather quickly.
Are you out of your mind?
Public dungeons aren't sandbox features. The "original themepark" EverQuest had public dungeons. There is nothing sandbox about them. RvR is ALSO not sandbox, no one EVER called Dark Age of Camelot or GW2 sandboxes. If you could build wherever you want, maybe, but you can't. Having crafting != sandbox. Whether it is deeper or not (which it isn't really). Complex character creation tools? You mean, the same one used in just about every MMO? And complex questing? WHAT? The questing is IDENTICAL to questing in WoW and its clones. The ONLY thing even remotely sandbox is the skill system.
You are wrong in nearly every point that you made. Which is fine, I'll just have to explain it to you in hopes that you can comprehend your failures.
When deciding whether or not a system in a given MMO is themepark or sandbox, it's not always as simple as throwing a label on it and being done. Some systems can be a mixture of both, and you ALWAYS have to be aware of the 'norm' for the industry. As the 'norm' often affects the label. So let's get to the lesson at hand...
Public dungeons. Let's go ahead and agree that public dungeons are not the 'norm' in standard themepark MMO's. Since it's public, it gives players several more options in how they traverse said dungeon. More options, in itself, is inherently 'sandbox'. I'll go ahead and make myself look old and completely void your EQ comment and follow up with this. Public dungeons were also in Ultima Online, which was released before EQ, and UO was as close to a pure sandbox MMO that you can get to. As a system, the only thing that would make public dungeons any more of a sandbox feature, would be if the players designed them by themselves for others. Since that doesn't happen in MMO's, we can't use that example. So, when talking about typical dungeons in typical MMO's, public dungeons must be considered more of a sandboxy feature.
Let's go onto AvA, or open world PvP. We'll continue the theme of explaining that not all features must be 100% sandbox in order to be sandboxy features. And again, you must look at the 'norm' in MMO's as an indicator. Just because it isn't normal doesn't mean it's a sandbox feature, but in this case, it is a good way to identify the possibility. Which that said, AvA in ESO includes three factions, right? Three is greater than two, correct? One would assume that more options lie within a system that includes three variables, rather than two, yes? Okay, moving on. The map of Cyrodil is huge, possibly larger than the DAoC frontiers. Which didn't have resource control points by the way. There also weren't many quests, though there were some dungeons in the DAoC version. There are so many additional features in the ESO version, it's staggering. Now, features alone do not make something sandboxy, so don't get all crazy with that comment. What makes it sandboxy, is that it's done for a reason. There is a story behind the conflict. You are fighting over valuable resources. AvA battles can even affect people who aren't even participating in the compaign, in the form of Alliance-wide buffs. Guilds are fighting over control of keeps in order to gain access to their auction houses. And ultimately, Imperial City will act like Darkness Falls did in DAoC. It's exclusively locked content available to the Alliance with the upper hand. It won't be in at launch, but it will be available in an expansion, I'm sure of it. Meaning always makes something matter a bit more. Compared to the norm, which is instanced BG's, ESO's AvA is significantly more sandboxy.
Crafting. What do we normally get in MMO's, in regards to crafting? We'll use an example. Harvest ore, go to forge, click on item from list, create item. In ESO, it's significantly more complex. There are so many more options than your typical MMO provides you. Again, more options can mean more sandboxy. The last gMMO that I played that allowed me to deconstruct items was Ultima Online. In fact, some of these professions can only be furthered by deconstructing magical items or regular items to get recipes. You have skill lines for all of these professions, do you get that in normal MMO's? You've got traits and styles available to you, and many that you need to unlock. Learning them can take hours alone. Not to mention what everyone else has been talking about.. but I will anyways. Crafters will be VERY important, and have the ability to make some of the best items, as well as make the best items in the game BETTER. We just came back to 'meaning' again. Making the crafter more important in the economy of the game is inherently sandboxy. You can only get more sandboxy as far as crafting goes by creating a game where you can only get items from crafters. Since ESO didn't go that route, it's not possible. However, typical MMO's give crafters almost zero love. ESO at least found a bit of a middle ground. Which, makes the crafting sandboxy. Perhaps not true sandbox crafting, but it's closer to sandbox than most MMO's out there.
Character Creation Tools. This won't be a long segment. Anyone worth their salt in MMO experience knows that ESO's character creation tools are some of the most robust tools given to players in MMO history. Could they add some things? Sure they could. Could they allow players to create their own character content? I suppose, although, that never turns out well. You'll see dick tattoo's in no time. The fact of the matter is, in most MMO's, you don't have even remotely as close to the amount of options you have in ESO. You can make your character look unique. By saying these tools are used in every MMO is a flat out lie, and makes it quite obvious that you are very inexperienced in the genre.
Questing. Apparently you haven't played ESO. Which is fine. However, I can explain to you why it's different. Almost every MMO includes quest hubs. These hubs are usually cities or villages. They'll offer nearly all of the quests for the region that it's in. You'll gather them, and go about your way trying to finish all of them. In ESO, while there are some quest hub areas, they are significantly smaller than your typical MMO. Most of the quests in ESO are out in the world. You have to stumble across them in order to find them. You can finish them without even having the initial quest. ZOS is tasked in designing a world that will pull you in a ton of different directions. Hopefully this system will keep the player engaged a bit more during their questing. So, no, ESO questing is not like typical MMO's. It's kind of a mix between hub/rail quests and not having quests(considered real sandbox). They offer you a limited amount in major areas, while the vast majority are hidden throughout the game world. Explorers will rejoice. So, this system is much more sandboxy than the norm. Before moving on, I want to mention that typical 'Kill X boars' quests are much farther and fewer between. I'm glad they are trying to incorporate more story and meaning into normal quests.
I agree with you with the skill system. Which is probably the system described here that has the most sandbox appeal. Essentially, it only locks you into class trees, but you don't even have to use your class skills if you don't want to. Racials as well. But, it's not completely sandbox. In Ultima Online, and several games since, characters were built on sklls alone. You could be any race, and anything. Provided you put the effort into getting better at those skills. I'm using this point to show you that not every feature or system has to be 100% sandbox or 100% themepark to be given either label. You just have to look at it in a certain light, and recognize the elements of each style are present there. You can't use extremes. We often don't get true extremes in gaming. Such as player crafted content or virtual reality. So therefor, you must use what is typical in MMO's, and then judge based on a systems individual merits, while keeping those 'norms' in mind.
You should have listened to your parents when they told you to 'think before you speak'. I wish more people listened.
Comments
While this is true on most games, it is not a definitive approach. In GW2, you could log out in one spot on a server, and log in on another and the place you logged in could be different.
My point all along, is YOU the player make it a sandbox. How you play individually make it a sandbox. In WoW, people call it themepark because you go from quest hub to quest hub to level up..... Could you forgo quests and just kill mobs and level? Yup you could, no one is making you quest. Could you level by PVP, yup you could.... no one is making you PVE.
The bottom line is PEOPLE make games sandbox. Developers can either give you tools or not give you tools, but you can still do SANDBOX-LIKE things in games. No game is really sandbox.
That is, until you develop you own game to play how you want to play.
Do you have someone telling you what skills to equip?
Do you have someone telling you which quests to do, or which mobs to kill?
Do you have someone telling you what your character should be like, or how they act?
The answer is no... You could in theory play ESO how ever you want. The only thing you can't do is make lasting changes to the world.
If that is the only thing keeping ESO from being a "sandbox" then, like before, No MMO has EVER been a sandbox.
Nope, every game doesn't have this. Almost every game is the opposite - it gives you stuff to do. The sandbox is the game that doesn't give you stuff to do. That's why I specifically said "REQUIRING entertainment/activity creation IN ORDER TO HAVE SOMETHING TO DO in the game".
Sure in EQ you held player driven quests. People in WoW did this too. But EQ and WoW gave you stuff to do. You didn't have to make your own entertainment to be entertained.
As other posters have said, ignore the extremes. This game exists in the grey area between themepark and sandbox.
Best comparison I can say would be to view it similar to elder scrolls games or GW2. All are themeparks, but they focus on freedom & exploration over linear progression. And I think that's the key difference. The standard themepark focuses on linear progression. The focus is always on 'get better stuff'.
In ESO, there is a little of that, but the focus seems more to be on customization, acquiring new skills (tools) to diversify you're builds. Getting the right enchants / enhancements for your gear to compliment what you're doing. Maybe you're a heavy-armored mage, and thus have naturally poor mana regen? Fix it by adding mana leech enchantments to your stuff, to gain mana from attacking. That's just one of many examples.
Not unlike GW2, lvling to max (50) doesn't take very long. I think the first 50 will be out in ~3days from early-access. However, similar to games like GW2 (and elderscrolls) the game doesn't just 'stop' because you hit max lvl. It opens up, there's pleanty of choices to make. PvP, dungeons, world bosses, adventure zones, etc. Whereas with most themeparks you hit endgame and it's either raid, or do battlegrounds. And that's pretty much it.
So, yes, the game is still very much a themepark. But it's a themepark that is based around giving players options, rather than guiding them down a narrow path of content.
I'm sorry sir, but you are very much mistaken.
The problem is you are trying to argue middle-ground games using extremist terms. Sandbox & Themepark are 2 extremes of the same problem. The reason they are named the way they are is this:
Themepark, is designed (like a themepark) with a series of content (rides) for you to pick from. You can't ever change what those rides are, but you can pick ones you partake in.
Sandbox is literally nothing. It's a box of sand. If you want any content you have to build it yourself. This is why a game like Minecraft is a sandbox, and WoW is not. WoW gives you a series of provided content to choose from. Minecraft says 'here, build it yourself'.
Games like GW2 and ESO exist in between both extremes. Some might call them 'Themeboxes'. They offer more freedom & choice than your standard themepark, but you are still limited in the sense that you can't really create your own content.
** Another way of looking at this is that Sandbox games are focused around a core gameplay of gathering & building (it's based on resource management). Themeparks are games more around going out and 'finding things to do'.
"Sandbox" is a designation that applies to the game, not the player, and only applies if content creation tools are present. Killing boars in a forest instead of doing quests is not "sandbox" unless there is tool that allows you to actually create a quest that consists of killing boars in the forest. It's just deciding to hang out in one portion of the themepark instead of different portion of the themepark. The mobs you are killing are still static spawns that will always be in exactly the same area where you killed them, the only difference between grinding and questing is that the grinding is slower and doesn't have any text box pop-ups.
All games have themepark elements. Most games do not have sandbox elements, and ignoring some of the rides in a themepark doesn't magically turn it into a sandbox.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
One thing that I feel needs mentioning is the fact that there is no end-game pve.
Sure there is content that takes you well beyond 50 that is repeatable but at this time there is no value in grinding it and no gear progression grind whatsoever.
Cyrodil is the endgame in RvR warfare that is persistent 24/7 with matches lasting I believe 3 months at a time.
Life IS Feudal
Are adventure zones pvp/pve zones?
I love how the words "Sandbox" and "Themepark" change depending on what a person wants them to be.
If nobody is going to define and everyone agree, kinda makes the discussion utterly pointless.
I love how some people see in only black and white.
There are many sandboxy features to the game. They might not be 100% sandbox, but they are still there to see. Things like public dungeons, open world PvP, deeper crafting, complex character creation tools, and a pretty complex skill system and the questing system come to mind rather quickly.
Those things are systems that you'd find in more of a sandbox game. Allowing players to shape the world isn't the only sandbox definition.
Very.
The guy is LOADED with instancing and phasing, so nothing you do really impacts the game world. There is a more or less linear level path and a linear scripted storyline. There's no death penalty. There's a GPS map telling you where everything is. The only thing that's not super themepark about it are the classes, which are somewhat open ended.
I believe they are pve zones but little else is known about them at this time. They may have more repeatable content but that is only speculation at this point.
Life IS Feudal
Are you out of your mind?
Public dungeons aren't sandbox features. The "original themepark" EverQuest had public dungeons. There is nothing sandbox about them. RvR is ALSO not sandbox, no one EVER called Dark Age of Camelot or GW2 sandboxes. If you could build wherever you want, maybe, but you can't. Having crafting != sandbox. Whether it is deeper or not (which it isn't really). Complex character creation tools? You mean, the same one used in just about every MMO? And complex questing? WHAT? The questing is IDENTICAL to questing in WoW and its clones. The ONLY thing even remotely sandbox is the skill system.
i have been in the last 3 beta tests, and will be in the this weekend. you have 3 different alliances..you choose an alliance you would like to start out with, then you create a character. that character will play in one alliance till you reach level 50. when you reach level 50 you can start doing things in one of the other alliances till you reach 50+, then you you can go to the last alliance till you become 50++, there will be tons to do after you reach level 50..they will have what they are calling 'adventure zones" also their version of "raids". plus, the world will have massive places not yet filled in with content, which will be added as the game goes along with even more content. Also dont forget, when your character reaches level 10, you can go to the PVP zone and fight for your alliance, which the PVP zone also has PVE content.
Now, this MMO is a Themepark MMO, you cant create something that wasnt already in the game. but it isnt on rails at all..where most MMO's direct you where to go from point to point (WOW). You can actually just ignore a quest marker and head in a direction on the map and find tons of things to do..they encourage exploration in this game unlike most MMO's..for example, i wondered off in a direction that was just blank on my map, i ended up finding a hidden cave that had "unique" crafting tables where i could make a named armor set. you will also find locked chests all over if you explore the land, and on and on
so in my opinion it is a mix of the single player TES games and an MMO, which is very hard to do but Zenimax has done a fine job doing so. I havent been this excited for a new MMO for a very very long time, but dont take my word for it, try it out for yourself. but dont go by the beta tests..for example, this weekends test is purely a stress test of the servers and it will not be a current build of the game, that is still being tested on the private test server. wait till the final version of the game is released then judge this game. hope i helped
It's not about black and white. It's about using words in a way that is actually consistent with the definition of the word. A lot of people (you appear to be one of them) treat sandbox like it is a synonym for "open world." It isn't. The fact that most games with sandbox features tend to be open world does not mean that any open world game is a sandbox.
Please, go back to the analogies. A sandbox consists of sand and tools. A themepark consists of rides that don't change over time. Pretty much every single thing you listed was a piece of static content (rides) designed by the developer.
People really need to stop abusing language. Most of the time when people are arguing about whether to label a game as a themepark or sandbox what they are actually arguing about is which kind of themepark it is. "I like my static content to look like X, not Y!"
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
i wouldnt say the questing is "exactly like wow"...wow has more "fetch it" quest than i can even remember..and this game is fully voiced. the only way you can compare ESO to wow is that they are both MMO's, thats where the comparison ends..thank god
My point all along, is YOU the player make it a sandbox. How you play individually make it a sandbox. In WoW, people call it themepark because you go from quest hub to quest hub to level up..... Could you forgo quests and just kill mobs and level? Yup you could, no one is making you quest. Could you level by PVP, yup you could.... no one is making you PVE.
The bottom line is PEOPLE make games sandbox. Developers can either give you tools or not give you tools, but you can still do SANDBOX-LIKE things in games. No game is really sandbox.
That is, until you develop you own game to play how you want to play.
Well if you stand there for 5 minutes it becomes true. GW2's answer to the themepark was to chain some events together to try to make the world dynamic. It fails pretty miserably. In a real sandbox like say EQN is trying to be you could log into that same spot on two servers and have no idea what you are going to see because the world is being molded by the players.
who cares
Played ArcheAge F2P exited after 30 mins got to lvl 9 -out of 50 and exited ...
Played ESO for 3 days with friend barely got to lvl 10 and we rushed to see PVP WvW game content is much more Quest immersion feeling
Archeage fell like a cheap no feeling mmo. Eso has a great Soul
Already bought Imperial version and plan to buy anual access !!!
Maybe will play ArcheAge if Trion will have Buy to Play or Buy to play with a low subscription .
If ESO and Archage had 10 $ monthly subscription I would buy both games.
Is hard to compare these games because one have something mind blowing and the other has something else amazing
That's not where all the comparison ends. The GPS map telling you where stuff is, the hand holding, the instancing, the phasing, the lack of death penalty, all stems from WoW.
But no, the quests DO feel more organic, and the saving grace of this game's PvE is that the fastest way to level is by grouping and hunting mobs, not grinding quests.
Not very much. The game is focused on open world exploration, free roaming combat and adventure. The only "themepark" elements are the quest system and possibly the dungeon set up depending on how you look at it.
I would say it's a hybrid of the two, more leaning towards sandbox. They give a lot more freedom of what to do than say, GW2 or WoW, but not just throwing you into the world and saying good luck like other ES single player games or DAoC did.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
You are wrong in nearly every point that you made. Which is fine, I'll just have to explain it to you in hopes that you can comprehend your failures.
When deciding whether or not a system in a given MMO is themepark or sandbox, it's not always as simple as throwing a label on it and being done. Some systems can be a mixture of both, and you ALWAYS have to be aware of the 'norm' for the industry. As the 'norm' often affects the label. So let's get to the lesson at hand...
Public dungeons. Let's go ahead and agree that public dungeons are not the 'norm' in standard themepark MMO's. Since it's public, it gives players several more options in how they traverse said dungeon. More options, in itself, is inherently 'sandbox'. I'll go ahead and make myself look old and completely void your EQ comment and follow up with this. Public dungeons were also in Ultima Online, which was released before EQ, and UO was as close to a pure sandbox MMO that you can get to. As a system, the only thing that would make public dungeons any more of a sandbox feature, would be if the players designed them by themselves for others. Since that doesn't happen in MMO's, we can't use that example. So, when talking about typical dungeons in typical MMO's, public dungeons must be considered more of a sandboxy feature.
Let's go onto AvA, or open world PvP. We'll continue the theme of explaining that not all features must be 100% sandbox in order to be sandboxy features. And again, you must look at the 'norm' in MMO's as an indicator. Just because it isn't normal doesn't mean it's a sandbox feature, but in this case, it is a good way to identify the possibility. Which that said, AvA in ESO includes three factions, right? Three is greater than two, correct? One would assume that more options lie within a system that includes three variables, rather than two, yes? Okay, moving on. The map of Cyrodil is huge, possibly larger than the DAoC frontiers. Which didn't have resource control points by the way. There also weren't many quests, though there were some dungeons in the DAoC version. There are so many additional features in the ESO version, it's staggering. Now, features alone do not make something sandboxy, so don't get all crazy with that comment. What makes it sandboxy, is that it's done for a reason. There is a story behind the conflict. You are fighting over valuable resources. AvA battles can even affect people who aren't even participating in the compaign, in the form of Alliance-wide buffs. Guilds are fighting over control of keeps in order to gain access to their auction houses. And ultimately, Imperial City will act like Darkness Falls did in DAoC. It's exclusively locked content available to the Alliance with the upper hand. It won't be in at launch, but it will be available in an expansion, I'm sure of it. Meaning always makes something matter a bit more. Compared to the norm, which is instanced BG's, ESO's AvA is significantly more sandboxy.
Crafting. What do we normally get in MMO's, in regards to crafting? We'll use an example. Harvest ore, go to forge, click on item from list, create item. In ESO, it's significantly more complex. There are so many more options than your typical MMO provides you. Again, more options can mean more sandboxy. The last gMMO that I played that allowed me to deconstruct items was Ultima Online. In fact, some of these professions can only be furthered by deconstructing magical items or regular items to get recipes. You have skill lines for all of these professions, do you get that in normal MMO's? You've got traits and styles available to you, and many that you need to unlock. Learning them can take hours alone. Not to mention what everyone else has been talking about.. but I will anyways. Crafters will be VERY important, and have the ability to make some of the best items, as well as make the best items in the game BETTER. We just came back to 'meaning' again. Making the crafter more important in the economy of the game is inherently sandboxy. You can only get more sandboxy as far as crafting goes by creating a game where you can only get items from crafters. Since ESO didn't go that route, it's not possible. However, typical MMO's give crafters almost zero love. ESO at least found a bit of a middle ground. Which, makes the crafting sandboxy. Perhaps not true sandbox crafting, but it's closer to sandbox than most MMO's out there.
Character Creation Tools. This won't be a long segment. Anyone worth their salt in MMO experience knows that ESO's character creation tools are some of the most robust tools given to players in MMO history. Could they add some things? Sure they could. Could they allow players to create their own character content? I suppose, although, that never turns out well. You'll see dick tattoo's in no time. The fact of the matter is, in most MMO's, you don't have even remotely as close to the amount of options you have in ESO. You can make your character look unique. By saying these tools are used in every MMO is a flat out lie, and makes it quite obvious that you are very inexperienced in the genre.
Questing. Apparently you haven't played ESO. Which is fine. However, I can explain to you why it's different. Almost every MMO includes quest hubs. These hubs are usually cities or villages. They'll offer nearly all of the quests for the region that it's in. You'll gather them, and go about your way trying to finish all of them. In ESO, while there are some quest hub areas, they are significantly smaller than your typical MMO. Most of the quests in ESO are out in the world. You have to stumble across them in order to find them. You can finish them without even having the initial quest. ZOS is tasked in designing a world that will pull you in a ton of different directions. Hopefully this system will keep the player engaged a bit more during their questing. So, no, ESO questing is not like typical MMO's. It's kind of a mix between hub/rail quests and not having quests(considered real sandbox). They offer you a limited amount in major areas, while the vast majority are hidden throughout the game world. Explorers will rejoice. So, this system is much more sandboxy than the norm. Before moving on, I want to mention that typical 'Kill X boars' quests are much farther and fewer between. I'm glad they are trying to incorporate more story and meaning into normal quests.
I agree with you with the skill system. Which is probably the system described here that has the most sandbox appeal. Essentially, it only locks you into class trees, but you don't even have to use your class skills if you don't want to. Racials as well. But, it's not completely sandbox. In Ultima Online, and several games since, characters were built on sklls alone. You could be any race, and anything. Provided you put the effort into getting better at those skills. I'm using this point to show you that not every feature or system has to be 100% sandbox or 100% themepark to be given either label. You just have to look at it in a certain light, and recognize the elements of each style are present there. You can't use extremes. We often don't get true extremes in gaming. Such as player crafted content or virtual reality. So therefor, you must use what is typical in MMO's, and then judge based on a systems individual merits, while keeping those 'norms' in mind.
You should have listened to your parents when they told you to 'think before you speak'. I wish more people listened.
I should have been more clear. I meant it doesn't seem to be raid or die at level 50.