I'm not playing an mmog atm if that partially answers your question.
I think the problem with mmogs is that the mmog decision makers don't understand their market.Many don't know how to make a good product.Many don't have the power to make a good product. Many decision makers don't keep their promises.Many decision makers don't understand the important of keeping to the vision of the finished game , that they had when they started the game development process.
Originally posted by jdnewell I used to like MMOs way back when.I still miss the sense of community and accomplishment that a server had in Vanilla DAoC. Granted it had its problems and was by no means perfect. But the community was great.Seems to me now that MMOs are more for a quick fix, co op, run dungeon with 5 random joes, no one speaks, only look at gear score, type of games now.And that pretty much isnt for me.
What I underlined was the key to communities. If the river never floods, the community never bands together to get it shored up. If the Tornado never comes, the community never rallies to help those that were hit.
On second thought... Many communities just sit back and wait for the Government to step in and "save us!"
What made the great communities of the old MMORPGs were the difficulties those MMORPGs presented to the players, whether intentional or not. Players would band together to overcome those "imperfections" and help one another.
In a sentence, MMOs today are too streamlined, efficient, and easy for my tastes.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by FinalFikusIt's actually a skinner box funneling everyone into specific gameplay rather than an all you can eat buffe
pardon my ignorance but what's a skinner box?
"Skinner Box" refers to an old scientific experiment where animals were in a box and were trained to hit the "reward button" repeatedly to get a reward.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Think MMOs suffer from the idea of putting people in boxes.
Scenario:
You're a warrior, you seek justice and are honor bound to protect the people....
"But what if I want to be a menace to society and slay all those who try to stop me?"
Nope. Not allowed.
I noticed this quite a bit going from GW1 to GW2. The Necromancers in GW1 were more mischievous and hard to pinpoint their moral influences. In GW2 you're just linear hero with different skills. I would love for an mmo to have a blank slate character with multiple different paths to choose from. Joining the military as a guard and rising up in ranks, sounds fun. Being a thief giving the guards someone to hunt for whilst profiteering off stealing from others, great. Being a mage that spends their time exploring new mysteries in the world, great.
But mmos now seem to put you into a role regardless of class and you must abide by it. Though as with any mmos the amount of thieves/ninjas/anything stealthy and prone to grief others would overpopulate the other pathways. So perhaps give bonuses for joining the others for balance sake *shrug*
Till then the current mmos are just time filler until a company decides to branch out and try new things that change the genre completely.
I am just wondering, do people actually like MMORPG's or are they just biding time for something? I dont get it, I was playing WoW for awhile and now I here people talking about other games saying they want high level content right away. Do people actually play these's games for content then maybe perhaps enjoy content instead of making it some sort of grind.
I myself love enjoying the content and would rather experience it on my own occasionally cause most just want instant gratification, and to me that is pathetic.
I just want a different game where it is not ok to jump to high level or get that sweet satisfaction so quickly. So I am going to try TESO and maybe that will help.
BTW i Played WoW since beta. Rift, SWTOR, AoC, AoW, C9, DCUO, Dragon Nest, FW, PoE, P2, Tera, and a lot more.
It's a wait in games like WoW, because pinheaded devs use a core design of nerf/buff cycles on players (the success of WotLK -- way it had 12mil -- was they BUFFED players, instead). So when your main is nerfed to the ground, tortured and executed in the World of Stuncraft, you wait until your main is "resurrected" again.
But you don't want to be in this situation, yet the other devs are too busy making the latest PeeVeePee 10k player game to care, so you grudgingly hang around.
Doesn't make happy gamers, that's for sure.
Do people like MMOs? Not if we have to keep being reminded of a game that was highly played and new over 10 years ago. Which is what I think the author is meaning. Not "Do we like 10 year old tired game mechanics."
Seriously....I will quit MMOs if WoW continues to be what Devs base games on....and they wont...so I'm fine.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Nothing wrong with developers making IMPROVED versions of WoW.
The wheel has always been round, it is the best shape for the wheel, but it has seen vast improvements. And though it has seen vast improvements, ultimately it is still just a wheel.
Nothing wrong with developers making IMPROVED versions of WoW.
The wheel has always been round, it is the best shape for the wheel, but it has seen vast improvements. And though it has seen vast improvements, ultimately it is still just a wheel.
But...they didn't invent the wheel
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
As for me, no I don't like traditional MMOs anymore. I don't have the time for them and it's all just more of the same really. I am subbed to EVE though, so all hope is not lost.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
If you go by people on these forums, then no, no one really likes MMOs, they just enjoy bitching about MMOs.
However, if you go by the millions playing MMOs then I suppose a lot of folks like them just fine.
If you go by that , then people that do like MMORPG's should be playing their favorite titles then? If that was the case then all these people that rabidly defend their game no matter what would be playing not caring or looking for arguments to pick with others , I mean if the game was that great to them , why are they here fighting with posters with criticism about the game then?
I am just wondering, do people actually like MMORPG's or are they just biding time for something? I dont get it, I was playing WoW for awhile and now I here people talking about other games saying they want high level content right away. Do people actually play these's games for content then maybe perhaps enjoy content instead of making it some sort of grind.
I myself love enjoying the content and would rather experience it on my own occasionally cause most just want instant gratification, and to me that is pathetic.
I just want a different game where it is not ok to jump to high level or get that sweet satisfaction so quickly. So I am going to try TESO and maybe that will help.
BTW i Played WoW since beta. Rift, SWTOR, AoC, AoW, C9, DCUO, Dragon Nest, FW, PoE, P2, Tera, and a lot more.
People who enjoy games like WoW scare me. It's getting worse over the years with this "WE PLAY YOU" kind of game play and "GO DO THESE THINGS WE WANT YOU TO DO" philosophy. The sad thing is for most players the game "starts" when it's "finished" the blasphemy everyone refers to as "end game".
Too bad you jumped into this decayed and mutated ugly genre too late. Back then (pre world of warcraft standardization of the genre) the journey meant something. You weren't hand-hold all the time and quests were part of the game and not THE game.
There's no hope for this genre seeing how incompetant and clueless lead designers are about what an MMORPG SHOULD be.
You end up with retarded concept of putting people online together for NO APPARENT REASON just to say "hey it's a massively multiplayer game" when you're going to solo all the way and do instanced dungeons with random people who do not communicate due to the easy-nature of the game or the non-existant-death-penalty AND because of the "fast paced" combat preventing you actually being your character and socializing a little bit.
Think MMOs suffer from the idea of putting people in boxes.
Scenario:
You're a warrior, you seek justice and are honor bound to protect the people....
"But what if I want to be a menace to society and slay all those who try to stop me?"
Nope. Not allowed.
I noticed this quite a bit going from GW1 to GW2. The Necromancers in GW1 were more mischievous and hard to pinpoint their moral influences. In GW2 you're just linear hero with different skills. I would love for an mmo to have a blank slate character with multiple different paths to choose from. Joining the military as a guard and rising up in ranks, sounds fun. Being a thief giving the guards someone to hunt for whilst profiteering off stealing from others, great. Being a mage that spends their time exploring new mysteries in the world, great.
But mmos now seem to put you into a role regardless of class and you must abide by it. Though as with any mmos the amount of thieves/ninjas/anything stealthy and prone to grief others would overpopulate the other pathways. So perhaps give bonuses for joining the others for balance sake *shrug*
Till then the current mmos are just time filler until a company decides to branch out and try new things that change the genre completely.
Star Citizen will allow you to do just that in Squadron 42 and then once you get into Star Citizen's persistent universe or MMORPG you will be able to veer off in whatever path you wish, pirate, businessman, merc, terrorist, etc.
Look at ESO. Everyone hates how different it feels compared to the TES because of the cutbacks it had to make to fit into the themepark mold.
Incorrect. Impressions overall have become more positive since the NDA dropped, there is absolutely no reason to believe "everyone" hates the feel of the game.
As for your comments about TOR, it's normal to let staff go after launch. BW intended to not do so, but that intention was based on unrealistic expectations that their product was going to be as successful as WoW. Instead, it was only more successful than any western MMO other than WoW, which wasn't quite enough success to match their lofty ambitions.
I didn't really mean "everyone", obviously. Sorry for wording it wrong. But there's no denying there's still alot of people unhappy about the game's current form. I don't like to use Angry Joe as an example, but he does have alot of followers that have the same negative opinion has him of the PVE part of the game.
EDIT: I'm not putting the game down btw. Just using a simple example.
As for for it being normal to layoff so many people, that's truly laughable. Don't remember Trion or Anet letting go tons of employees after launch, not to meantion executive producer. BW aimed too high, just as you said, and fell because of it. Why can't people just accept that TOR was a financial failure at first that latter recovered?
There's no hope for this genre seeing how incompetant and clueless lead designers are about what an MMORPG SHOULD be.
You end up with retarded concept of putting people online together for NO APPARENT REASON just to say "hey it's a massively multiplayer game" when you're going to solo all the way and do instanced dungeons with random people who do not communicate due to the easy-nature of the game or the non-existant-death-penalty AND because of the "fast paced" combat preventing you actually being your character and socializing a little bit.
Actually devs are great in reading the market of their audience. Otherwise, why would the genre growth so much in players and revenue?
There is no such thing as what MMORPGs "should be". They are just entertainment products responding to the market place.
And I don't play games to socialize ... so i am glad they took force socialization out of MMOs. Otherwise, i would not have come back to the genre.
I didn't really mean "everyone", obviously. Sorry for wording it wrong. But there's no denying there's still alot of people unhappy about the game's current form. I don't like to use Angry Joe as an example, but he does have alot of followers that have the same negative opinion has him of the PVE part of the game.
EDIT: I'm not putting the game down btw. Just using a simple example.
As for for it being normal to layoff so many people, that's truly laughable. Don't remember Trion or Anet letting go tons of employees after launch, not to meantion executive producer. BW aimed too high, just as you said, and fell because of it. Why can't people just accept that TOR was a financial failure at first that latter recovered?
Angry Joe's second impressions were largely positive.
And the reason people can't "accept" that about TOR is because it isn't accurate. They said, repeatedly, that when their only revenue stream was subs that they needed 500k subs to break even; prior to the start of the free option, they had never dipped below that number. They didn't lay off staff and change their model because the product had already failed, they did so as a pre-emptive measure to avoid a failure they thought might be coming. You may not see the distinction, but it is there.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Angry Joe's second impressions were largely positive.
And the reason people can't "accept" that about TOR is because it isn't accurate. They said, repeatedly, that when their only revenue stream was subs that they needed 500k subs to break even; prior to the start of the free option, they had never dipped below that number. They didn't lay off staff and change their model because the product had already failed, they did so as a pre-emptive measure to avoid a failure they thought might be coming. You may not see the distinction, but it is there.
Plus, whether TOR stumbled in the beginning is moot. It is making tons of money now ... and is a financial success. May be it is F2P. May be it is stories + F2P ..... people can speculate as they want ... but it is working now.
Comments
I'm not playing an mmog atm if that partially answers your question.
I think the problem with mmogs is that the mmog decision makers don't understand their market.Many don't know how to make a good product.Many don't have the power to make a good product. Many decision makers don't keep their promises.Many decision makers don't understand the important of keeping to the vision of the finished game , that they had when they started the game development process.
The result is the mess we have seen for too long.
On second thought... Many communities just sit back and wait for the Government to step in and "save us!"
What made the great communities of the old MMORPGs were the difficulties those MMORPGs presented to the players, whether intentional or not. Players would band together to overcome those "imperfections" and help one another.
In a sentence, MMOs today are too streamlined, efficient, and easy for my tastes.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Think MMOs suffer from the idea of putting people in boxes.
Scenario:
You're a warrior, you seek justice and are honor bound to protect the people....
"But what if I want to be a menace to society and slay all those who try to stop me?"
Nope. Not allowed.
I noticed this quite a bit going from GW1 to GW2. The Necromancers in GW1 were more mischievous and hard to pinpoint their moral influences. In GW2 you're just linear hero with different skills. I would love for an mmo to have a blank slate character with multiple different paths to choose from. Joining the military as a guard and rising up in ranks, sounds fun. Being a thief giving the guards someone to hunt for whilst profiteering off stealing from others, great. Being a mage that spends their time exploring new mysteries in the world, great.
But mmos now seem to put you into a role regardless of class and you must abide by it. Though as with any mmos the amount of thieves/ninjas/anything stealthy and prone to grief others would overpopulate the other pathways. So perhaps give bonuses for joining the others for balance sake *shrug*
Till then the current mmos are just time filler until a company decides to branch out and try new things that change the genre completely.
www.project1999.com/
/end thread
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
To answer the title question:
If you go by people on these forums, then no, no one really likes MMOs, they just enjoy bitching about MMOs.
However, if you go by the millions playing MMOs then I suppose a lot of folks like them just fine.
Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk
Do people like MMOs? Not if we have to keep being reminded of a game that was highly played and new over 10 years ago. Which is what I think the author is meaning. Not "Do we like 10 year old tired game mechanics."
Seriously....I will quit MMOs if WoW continues to be what Devs base games on....and they wont...so I'm fine.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Nothing wrong with developers making IMPROVED versions of WoW.
The wheel has always been round, it is the best shape for the wheel, but it has seen vast improvements. And though it has seen vast improvements, ultimately it is still just a wheel.
Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk
But...they didn't invent the wheel
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
If you go by that , then people that do like MMORPG's should be playing their favorite titles then? If that was the case then all these people that rabidly defend their game no matter what would be playing not caring or looking for arguments to pick with others , I mean if the game was that great to them , why are they here fighting with posters with criticism about the game then?
People who enjoy games like WoW scare me. It's getting worse over the years with this "WE PLAY YOU" kind of game play and "GO DO THESE THINGS WE WANT YOU TO DO" philosophy. The sad thing is for most players the game "starts" when it's "finished" the blasphemy everyone refers to as "end game".
Too bad you jumped into this decayed and mutated ugly genre too late. Back then (pre world of warcraft standardization of the genre) the journey meant something. You weren't hand-hold all the time and quests were part of the game and not THE game.
There's no hope for this genre seeing how incompetant and clueless lead designers are about what an MMORPG SHOULD be.
You end up with retarded concept of putting people online together for NO APPARENT REASON just to say "hey it's a massively multiplayer game" when you're going to solo all the way and do instanced dungeons with random people who do not communicate due to the easy-nature of the game or the non-existant-death-penalty AND because of the "fast paced" combat preventing you actually being your character and socializing a little bit.
It's hilarious.
Star Citizen will allow you to do just that in Squadron 42 and then once you get into Star Citizen's persistent universe or MMORPG you will be able to veer off in whatever path you wish, pirate, businessman, merc, terrorist, etc.
I didn't really mean "everyone", obviously. Sorry for wording it wrong. But there's no denying there's still alot of people unhappy about the game's current form. I don't like to use Angry Joe as an example, but he does have alot of followers that have the same negative opinion has him of the PVE part of the game.
EDIT: I'm not putting the game down btw. Just using a simple example.
As for for it being normal to layoff so many people, that's truly laughable. Don't remember Trion or Anet letting go tons of employees after launch, not to meantion executive producer. BW aimed too high, just as you said, and fell because of it. Why can't people just accept that TOR was a financial failure at first that latter recovered?
Actually devs are great in reading the market of their audience. Otherwise, why would the genre growth so much in players and revenue?
There is no such thing as what MMORPGs "should be". They are just entertainment products responding to the market place.
And I don't play games to socialize ... so i am glad they took force socialization out of MMOs. Otherwise, i would not have come back to the genre.
Angry Joe's second impressions were largely positive.
And the reason people can't "accept" that about TOR is because it isn't accurate. They said, repeatedly, that when their only revenue stream was subs that they needed 500k subs to break even; prior to the start of the free option, they had never dipped below that number. They didn't lay off staff and change their model because the product had already failed, they did so as a pre-emptive measure to avoid a failure they thought might be coming. You may not see the distinction, but it is there.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Plus, whether TOR stumbled in the beginning is moot. It is making tons of money now ... and is a financial success. May be it is F2P. May be it is stories + F2P ..... people can speculate as they want ... but it is working now.