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skills = monthly fee, not player abilities in the game..
chaintm
Member UncommonPosts: 953
Again first I would like to say thnx for the replies in my inquiry in my other post,
I do know the game is not for everyone, but i for one just need the fun to start when I start a game, if I don't have fun then I don't play. You guys spelled it out in black and white, for that I thank you for your honesty. Yes, this is not a level game, but a time= skill game. No matter what I do (in the game) it will not effect my skill learning process, which as was posted on the official forums. "it would take someone a physical 14 year subscription to accomplish all skills currently available". and there lies the problem.
No matter what a new player does , no matter what skills he/she acquires, this game is based on time earned. Or better way of saying "monthly fee = skills you learn" So basically if you are a vet of the game , there is no way ever that any new player will ever be caught up or even equal to those vets around him. Aye, you can do things to even this out, but you will never be close. So what's the big issue?
Now I understand why the vets love this game and the new players hate it. I couldn't truly comprehend this till you all spelled it out to me on the last post. You are uber, the top dogs, never ever in this game will someone best you. That is definitely a cool thing for vest to hold and grasp onto, However this game is doomed based on the very mechanics of the game. Those that join anytime in the future will be (as each day passes) further and further behind the old base. By simple mathematics it will die off, thou I guess most of these online games will sooner or later. But the point being is this is and never will be a 'new player friendly game' it can never be while the current system is in play.
It's own dynamics is it's downfall, players can't enhance or speed their process of advancement so there will never be an even playing field in that regard. Again I guess this is a flame to those taking offense to it, but I am pointing out the obvious, something most if not all I have talked to avoid even mentioning. If more knew this as the "true concept" of the game, they would get maybe 1 or 2 people looking at it, but not the attention it is getting currently.
Thou I do have to say , I have seen not many stay with the game , beyond 3 months. Just for the fact they will never "catch up" in the game or be competitive as a vet can. You can and will post here how that is not true, but you are just trying to prove something that is not needed to be proven. No one can argue that the mechanics (time payed = skills earned) is what this game is, then if you take that out of the equation you finally get a game that has all the great features people would want in a space sim. Myself included in that.
The time payed = skill advancement will kill this game in the end, because they will add more and more skills to keep the vets entertained putting the new population out of reach of the current till the gap is so large, it would be silly to even consider the title.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Comments
Well bro, you can just shut your mouth they are planning on nerfing the time skills, by making REQ. more only lvl 4 and not lvl 5 ,and lvl 3 instead of lvl 4, they are not going to kill off their own game, thats ridiculous to say. Dont you figure they figured out what you just did a few days ago, alot faster and have already been working on a solution? This is NOT SOE or Blizzard. This is a small real company with a soul, and their butts rely on this game. CCP will not allow their game to drive off newcomers. If im correct, and i know i am. EVE-Online breaks more players per a server, than any other game on the MMO market. on a weekly basis, it goes up another few hundred people playing at once, so obviously the population is growing. And there is fun to the game, you just have to get into the community and understand the rules the vets have laid down for you, well you can say screw that, im playing how i wanna play ,and you can by sitting in Empire space.
But if you look at it realistically, it takes a few months 6-12 to master any other LEVEL based MMO. To raid for the gear, level the toons, learn the spawns. All of that. When you look at it those few skills that take 8 days to do, or a few hours,TO MASTER SOMETHING WITHIN THE GAME, and you not having to grind away to get them, makes it a real nice system of doing things, it was designed for gamers that enjoy their life, and actualy living one instead of playing infront of a monitor non stop all day to get a ding. But hell i'm a geek like you, but i just got everyone else around me, to play computer as much as i do =p
However, i do understand at first their isnt much to do in EVE. But what do you expect on just starting a game? To be like City of Heroes and just start blowing through hundreds of guys instantly? No.
PVP Within Eve is everything, its litterally EVERYTHING YOU WORKED for, for the past few months on your guy. If you get blown up, its all gone, but a few scraps. It is the hardest PvP i have seen in a game since UO. Thats why you would want no part of PvP and tangle with the VETS, at least for about a year. It takes time and patience but it pays off nicely as a secondary game, I puddle around on the net, play Counter strike source, and Eve-online, as i AWAIT Vanguard.
I see 3rd Generation MMO's using Eve time skill base, and grinding together, such as, certain skills say as trade crafting requires alot of TIME to study, and adventure skills require grinding to progress through using.
The glorious thing about EVE is that no characters are the same with all those skills there is a crapload of Diversity. This isnt the cookie cutter WoW where everyone is the same and theres nothing you can do.
Im not trying to pitch eve to you, im just explaining on how what your saying whats bad about it, is crap. So you didnt like it, it is something different thats fine. But no need to bash it, we dont Bash your carebear games, with no skill needed do we?
I mean if i rmemeber correctly, i lvl to lvl 50 in eq2 in 6 weeks of constant cracking out. canceled subscription.
i leveled my hunter to level 60 in WoW in 1 week and a half. and have canceled that subscription.
Eve holds true through and through. It always has something to be done when you log on, either agent missions or a fleet is on the move.
sorry for my rant.. im bored.
haha, it's all good man and again your opinion is fine at that. My point is valid thou, I was just amazed when I actually looked into this game more to find this is the game. They might eliminate the beginning tiers, but as you fondly just put it and made my point even more valid "its a pvp game". Ahh and in this , what is the one thing in ANY pvp game you need to defeat your foe? beyond actual player skills, you need levels/skills of that game to even compete correct? So again the valid statement that the uber will stay uber and the new will never compete is a valid statement.
But again, yes I ranted a little, mostly because since I loved all the old space games of the past I was truly hoping to be able to compete in this one, but that time grind is worse then a grind itself. At least in the other "carebear" games as you call them, My skill and commitment actually effects the outcome, not how much money I spent monthly.
As far as you are not suprised there is not much to do in the begining sounds like most others who will defend their elite statues in their flavor of game to get more aboard. Who would, in their right mind pay for a game that they don't have fun in for the first few months? That says it all again. Not to push back your own statments at you, but your just making my point more valid. This is an elitest game till they change those very mechanics that make up that game. Then tell me halve of the people won't leave because now their Uber statues will actually be able to be caught up by a new guy who decides he will "grind" to the top in a few months? (SWG REVAMP ANYONE? jedi a plenty now, but barly any vets anymore)
PS. if they eliminate the skill vs payed time I would join in a heartbeat, well that's if I can actually effect my skills by not having to kill say 10000000 pirates to get one skill, that just as bad if not worse then grinding in any game... hey only time will tell , but as things are now , it dosn't. Oh and as far as the devs are concerned, eh don't know them personally don't really care, I based my opinion on facts of the game.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
I can't powergame for skills
:tear:
Wait... no... I am genuinly happy about that feature.
Plain wrong. In the corp I am now (founded 3 weeks ago, around 30 members by now), we have a mix of old characters, like me, and totally new players barely out of their Trial. You know what? They enjoy the game, they are excited about it because they don't look at us and say "buhuhuhu they have more SP than me", but instead "wow, cool, I can learn something from them" - and they *all* enjoy the game, and have fun with us.
It is an old misbelief that Level in other games equals SP in EVE. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Some people seem to have the need for "tail-length" comparisons, but its a lot harder to do that in EVE, since characters are so freely customizable. Actually not even Characters of the same amount of SP can be said to be of "equal" strength/level/whatever. And yes, a 6 month old character can (and it was often the case) beat a 2 year old "Veteran". In any aspect of the game.
Where has that been said? Any link you can provide?
Why not? My character participated in the killing of a, at then time, roughly 7 month old character (at that time that counted as old in EVE), while barely being a month old myself (the others weren't much older either). Later that week we organized a pirate hunting group of two older characters and us "noobs" and went off to hunt pirates in 0.0 (we got kicked hard, but more because of our bad coordination than any lack of character skill). Actually most of my PvP-experience comes from my first six months of play. The best about it? I never felt "inferior", I had fun, killed and got killed.
That sounds as if EVE would require no commitment or time. EVE is not about the "solo hero", EVE is about groups working together to achieve a goal. The greatest achievements in EVE sofar were done by groups, be it the first alliance, the first real "alliance killers" (m0o), the first Outpost built, etc. But even the few great solo PvPlers in the game did not get their status because of their supreme character skills, but because of their attitude, determination, and RL skills. Your commitment and time affects the people arond you, and, if you are dedicated enough, whole Regions of EVE. You think Alliance leaders got to their position because they are the ones with the most SP? You think the great Trading Cartels rose to power because they have characters with a lot of SP among them?
Don't mix up facts with personal opinion.------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
let me just put it in perspective, would you consider it impossible to beat someone in WoW who has 4 level 60 characters when you only have one? It wouldn't matter right, because they can only use one character at a time, same thing in EVE, skills don't go beyond level V and once someone reaches the best they can/want to be at something they branch off and train to use something else, these 20mil vets may not even be using 50% of their skillpoints with the ship they're currently flying and the equipment they have fit.
Atleast EVE does have a cap on how good you can actaully be at one particular thing, unlike most MMOs where once you hit cap level you begin a build up in power by grinding for better and better equipment.
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MMOs Retired From: Earth and Beyond, Project Entropia, There, A Tale in the Desert, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Eve Online, City of Heroes/Villains.
MMOs Currently (worth) Playing: None.
MMO hopefuls: Age of Conan.
There is a lot about this that is completely wrong. As has been said already, all skills go up to level 5, once you train something up to that level you are on par in that skill with someone who has been playing the game for 3 years. Every time the devs add new skills into the game they WIDEN the range of choice for the players, they don't generally don't lengthen the path to get to the end in one particular area. My main character has 23 million skillpoints but I can only fly mainly gallente ships. I have a ton of other skills in other areas so my friend who started less than a year ago can stand up just as well as I can in a fight.
Skills in this game are secondary to gaining money, that is the real meat of the game. A 1 month old noob can make millions if they are creative in how they make it, and there are lots of ways to do that. It takes absolutely no skill to level up in other MMO's, you just have to have enough time and you can eventually max out. The same can be said about making money in EVE. It can be extremely easy to make money if you sit in high-sec and mine all day 23/7 or run missions 23/7 but you can lose it all in seconds if you are stupid.
sure, when u reach the end , so lets sit down here (pulls up a chair) and really grind the numbers. Everyone is arguing, "you are wrong, it's not like that you can compete with the vets" , I say you are TOTALLY WRONG! why do I say this, because your own defenses on the subject are flawed, You will now start posting, "oh he is just a troll, a flamer" because you have no leg to stand on. The facts of this game is TIME PAYED = SKILL EARNED <there is NOTHING> you can say until the devs change this that it is anything but this.. You can say your new, (which I highly doubt after reading on post above) you can say "in time" but that's the point, time is the whole point.
Why doesn't the company just say "and if you act now, for only 210 dollars you can save all the time=skills and have a character fully developed" because after all, no matter what your skill is as a player, it dosn't effect your skill progression in the game and that's what you vets don't get. You just don't get it. You are blind to your "top of the food chain" additude. I tryed having a some what rational discussion here, but all the "you are wrong" post have PROVEN NOTHING!, you say it, you don't back it up. I Don't have to back up my position, it's on the offical site in black and white. Why argue facts of this game, I am letting those know, as I didn't till now what this game is really about.
This is what a new guy see's in game, looking past all the "bs" how great it is at the "end" game. Tell the new people how it is, like how i found it to be. TIME PAYED = SKILLS EARNED period.
Good game, terrible execution on the devs part for even coming up with this idea, there is no personal skill developed its all about the dollar amount.
((( *edit* I am talking about personal gaming skills to better your character, I say this so I don't see the obvious pick my post apart and say "you can pick your skills" so yes you can do that, but it's time that allows me to do so not my actual skill to progress in the game)))))
"Every online game has this, the difference is, I am not forced to wait till I can skill or level, I can do something about it."
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
You really shouldn't insult some guys grammar when you are barely coherent, atleast I could understand him.
Ok so your problem isn't with competing with vets it's the fact that the skill system is based on time? If yes then I'm sorry but EVE is not a powergrinders game, it being good or bad for a new player depends on that person's amount of free time. If you have 5 or 6 hours a night that you can devote to powergrinding then the real time skill system does not work for you, if you're like me and you're a full time student with a job then EVEs skill system is wonderful.
<---- 4 months playing and I love the skill system.
There are implants, and yes they make a big difference in training time.
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MMOs Retired From: Earth and Beyond, Project Entropia, There, A Tale in the Desert, Star Wars Galaxies, World of Warcraft, Eve Online, City of Heroes/Villains.
MMOs Currently (worth) Playing: None.
MMO hopefuls: Age of Conan.
Who said I was complaining it's not a powergrinding game? It's a pay time = skills, Not player abilities = skills. The system is meant so one can not in anyway improve themselves by playing the game. Time improves your skills, not the actions you take in the game. You are confused on the issue of power gaming. This goes for anyone playing this title.
Sure, if your willing to shovel out 15 bucks a month to play a few hours a week , then more power to yeah. Point here is there is nothing that allows a player to advance himself in any rate (power gaming or not) to improve his abilities. Implants are a slight variance, but to gain the ones that will advance you is of course, another wait till you get some Time Payed in.
Only reason I ever brought this matter up, is for some reason, players keep this part hush hush, like it some big secret and only when u actually play this game, get threw the tons of useless outdated materials, along with the fanbots, you realize what this game really is. If your into that sort of pay to skill up, more power to yeah, but it's just like buying gold on ebay or items in other games, except in this title, you pay the devs to get skills. Sure, I pay a dev company to play other games like this , but at least in those, I can't calculate my skills/levels to the amount of money I payed. I calculate my abilities, timed played into the amount of skills/levels my character has , not the size of my wallet.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
Sorry, skill gain is totally independent from hunting pirates - you dont need to kill 10 million of them if you dont want it, you do not even need to be logged in to gain that skill - so what are you talking about here?
And you also do not need to gain each and every skill - you should use your brain and decide what you will actually do, train in this direction and find companions (a corporation?- what about founding your own one?) who acually complete the skill set of your corporation.
EVE is not a multi-singleplayer game, it is a unique multi-player game (!) - you should play together with others and find your place in this world. If you see it just as an annoying game mechanics, you should not play EVE, I guess. Try to be part of the universe and let those skill gain be part of the background tasks you just have to bother about every few weeks.
The rest of the time you should play EVE - if you dont see any sense in playing it without focus on skills you should go and search for another game, then EVE is not for you.
Ragosch
P.S.: You think the formulas [fun = skill; skill = time; time = money] would lead to [fun = skill = time = money] telling you that you would just have fun playing EVE if you have enough money - but that is not true - it is just the way YOU see it - because your basic formulas are fixed in your head, but they are wrong, especially your assumtion [fun = skill], you can also have fun without masses of skills.
Skills are not the most important aspect of EVE. They are important up to a point but it would only take a month at most to reach that point. I've seen frigs defeat battleships in 1 on 1's. There is no ship that can win in every situation against every other ship. You need to use what you have well. In this case the battleship was in a long range damage dealing setup and the frig had a warp jammer and an afterburner and a couple of short range guns. Once the frig got inside the battleship's weapons, it was only a matter of time.
I live out in 0.0. When hostiles enter, I and many others dock our battleships and get into frigs to fight in fleet battles. You just need to know how to use them and not being afraid to lose your ship.
Not gonna quote, soo many to quote so I'm just gonna post. Much easier.
I must agree with the original post of "Skills = Monthly fee" But if you really go down to it, you only have an ability to earn # skill points, but that apply's to all MMO's only Eve has a direct comparison. Look, if you powergrinded for a solid month, 23-7 or 24-7 and the game didn't have a really low level cap (as in lvl 60-70, need like 100-150) you can only powergrind to a certain extent, just most of those games don't have enough Skill points to grind that far. Eve actually has a skill ratio with point margins that exede a solid months grinding or training. Yes you may have to train for a month to become powerfull enough to PvP but this ultimate eletist idea that you'll never be able to kill one, it's crazy.
FYI, I haven't gotten by a trial account for the time I have known about this game, all because I don't have a credit card to pay or a store that stocks time cards, or net banking of anytype until this month. Yes it may take a while to start having the most powerfull weaponry. But you don't need that to take out people even 1 year older then you. If you look at the skill tree only a small percent are directly combat related, even the electronic warfare doesn't give you a pure advantage unless you have only large weapons that cant hit fast objects, but thats what the new players have as an advantage against the older players, little ships, may have weaker everything, but they are too fast for the biggest weaponry to target. Saying that a new player less then 4 months old is unable to stand and fight against vet's is overating it. Players 1 month old can destroy 1 to 1 and a half year old players. Even the biggest, most powerfull ships can't enter High spec space, where 90% of the less then 6 month old player base live.
Yes you can lose players because they think they will never be competitive, but 3 months in and you will be able to fight anyone you see if you want to. But PvP and warfare ISN'T the only way to play the game. I'd say more then 60% of the player base are Industrial based and make money within weeks. Without having to fight for their life, and even be competitive. But this is almost irrelavent to what the game purely is. It is a second game, one that is played in the background. You don't have to play for more then an hour a day to be competitive, even in some instances you don't have to log for weeks cause of a long training skill. This can be played by people as a life game, a grinder. But you don't have to. It's almost designed for those that don't have the time to play an MMO continuelly to be competitive. Unlike every other game out there (in MMO). Yes Time = skill, thus skill = monthly fee, but to a lot of people out there (Roughly 100k or almost there) this is just fine.
Have fun gamming.
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
I couldn't pass up on responding on this one...
Fun does = skill, because when you play any game, the bases of that is real life, you do things to accomplish a goal. As you start in EVE, your goal is to mine and kill pirates. In this you would want to feel you are accomplishing something. Sure a response on this is, "you are, you are gaining wealth". Ok I will give that is a fair argument indeed. However, what fun is it say if you were to be in a standard morph leveling /skilling and only to find out that all you are doing is farming for gold/items. You skills will come in time as you pay to play.
What I don't think you are getting (and most here) is the fact this game is a time payed = skills earned. There is nothing more, Everyone here has said in one degree or another, "well yeah, in a month or so you can.... " so again, we the "new guys" have to wait (pay) till we can compete or accomplish what the average user in today's morphs would consider being an accomplishment.
Hey, people love EVE, it's pretty obvious, I have no gripes about that, but don't pull the wool over people and say this isn't what it is. Tell me, if someone asked you about the game that your response would indicate "time payed = skills earned" of course you wouldn't , because that is something you know people don't regularly accept. You would tell them "well with time and patients, you too can become a padawan" or something to that effect, totally leaving out this fact. Why? it's the reason I gave and nothing more.
Hey have fun with Eve, I even said I hope it goes on for a long time, but for the average player this is not a friendly starting game. If they want to fix this, they should just insta new players in skills greater then they are currently, but wait! alas, that would upset the vet players who had to do it the long way.
As far as the other post's here, Some of you guys made some real valid points about the game and how it "can" be fun and this I can understand, but also your "fun" statements again refer back to a month or so of well, ok maybe it's not so fun at the start, but it gets better, sounds like a bunch of guys defending a beta that went terribly wrong, but "it will get better!" ... not meaning to disenchant your comments, but frankly, you said exactly what I have been saying without actually saying it.
Again have fun in Eve, just be honest what the game really is as far as skills are concerned, which in most games if not all, skills / levels are the meat and bones of an online experience and most have come to expect you can effect those skills/levels by your own RL skills, not a monthly fee.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
In reply to the original post:
You are right, if you start the game there is no way to catch up people who were playing since beta. Is it wrong? I dont think it is wrong, because in EVE there is no level cap; and if a game doesnt have one, it doesnt matter what game it is it will always be an issue. If WoW had no level cap of 60, then I can garantee you there will be select 20% of the server that have a lot of time to grind levels and they will all be much higher then everyone else. The other thing you forget is that there are only so many skills in one paticular area and you dont have to play for 4 years to excel in one paticular area. As a matter of fact you can be combat effective in as little as 3 - 4 months; In a year, you will max out all of your combat skills and will be able to stand up to par even with those that were playing for 4 years when it comes to combat. It is a common misconseption about EVE that a lot of people fail to see, sure you just keep training, but there is a cap and it is possible to reach it, within a certain time frame. Aside from that fun of EVE doesnt come from maxing your character, it is about obtaining skills that you need in order to what you want to do. Hell I come online and play EVE every day, not to mindlessly change skills but because of my corp, allience, to group with people and go PvPing or managing my POS or pirate hunting. In 99% of the time I dont even think that I need to catch up to 4 year old players because I dont need to max our every single skill, I just train up to do what I want to do. EVE is a situation based game where even if your skills are not as high as your opponents but you got situation advantage, better ship fit or in a lot of cases faster reflexes you do have a chance to win. The difference in a lot of skills between 4 and 5 is 5% and takes 30 - 40 days. I think that if people came to EVE in objective to do what they want to do, join corp, and have fun rather then thinking "How can I match skills of a vet?" they would have a lot more fun.
That is a *means* to reach your goals, not really a goal by itself. Also why only at the start? There are lots of older characters enjoying the mentioned activities (to reach their goals). Also I know characters who didn't start off with those activities, but with PVP right away, so again, it shows that you seem to have a narrow view of what you can do in game.
Also my former response was there to show that what you call "time payed = skills earned" does not really affect the newer players who see the possibilities of EVE and the advantages of having older players there. EVE is for a long term playing kind of player, and seeing the numbers of new players on the rise I seems that they dont' seem to have a problem with it either..
I seriously don't know what your point is. In any other MMO game I have to pay as well, but in contrast if I have little time to play I fall behind friends who may play with me. And usually that means we can't do quests (or anything resembling it) together after a while. In any other game too gametime payed for means better character, and in EVE this growth is just more constant - that is what *you* don't seem to get. I understand your point, but essentially you are saying nothing - at least nothing new.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Sig worthy
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
growth is payed time = skill, that's my point, has been all along , but you and everyone seem to get on this, "its not what the game is about", well to you it might not be, but to most it is. How can I make such a blatant open ended statement? because every game (till this one) player skills (RL abilities) to enhance their own character from leveling/skilling threw quest or what have you effects their character. In Eve it's timed payed.
I haven't stated anything other then this fact, but you and others seem to deem it necessary to constantly bombard this thread with "there is more to eve then that" well there is more to WoW then just leveling, but at least what you effectively do with your character effects that character. Not a wallet with deep pockets.
Eve is fine, let this thread die, but the only reason you guys seem to defend Eve so much is because my statement is true and is fact. So what if people know its a time played = skills, that is after all what it is, if people want to look beyond this fact for more then let them make that choice. All I did here was point to others what the actual game mechanics is based on. Sure there is more, never argued it , but the beginning of this game is what I have stated and nothing more. You get more out of it, good for you. All I pointed out again was the underlining truth of this title. Most if not all morphs today (as I have said again and again) are based on player real life skills effecting their characters advancment. Not a wallet.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
I played for 2 months then i quit because i didnt like the politics i mean its too much like real life and people take it toooo seariously. In my first corp the guy thought i was a spy no matter what and i was a noob and i made good friends with this girl in it and she was showing me the ropes but the Corp leader was brainwashing her making her think all this crap and she would come vent at me about the crap he was saying and using her to do and it was just rediculous. I got so pissed that i told him off in my own way saying something like he got problems and he shouldnt be treating evaryone like this and to deal with his rl problems in rl lol then he kicked me. But after learning more about the game and the forums i just didnt wanna play it anymore the slowness of this game didnt affect me that much though.
chaintm, "growth is payed time = skill", as you put it, can be applied to every other game out there. Period. This is not something that applies only to EVE. Sure you can influence character groth more in other games, but then again, you also don't "get better" while offline in other games. And your character even grows after one year, or two years, not like in other games where you can reach the character's maximum groth within weeks or a few months. And if you spend 6-12 hours a day to level a character in a game don't you think that you are "paying" for that in other way? Maybe not cash, but in much more valuable assets, like personal time for family. Also that time "wasted" could be used for more productive work that you could have used to get an income. There are more angles to view this matter than just "EVE is non adaptive in character groth, therefore I conclude time payed = character advancement". And even if we look at it from a cash p.o.v.: $10 to $15 a month (depending on what subscription time you chose) is not something that will drive you into bankrupcy.
The only "real life skill" that is necessary for other games to advance your character, which EVE does not require, is a "lot of spare time".
I think with these words we can truly close this issue.
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Originally posted by Mandolin
Designers need to move away from the old D&D level-based model which was never designed for player vs player combat in the first place.
Please your just digging your grave. Your argument was nice at first, your points were good. But you still don't get what anyone else was saying, hey You even ignored my argument. But again like in many threads before this I have to point out what another player, and very good poster has said.
And there is nothing more to say. But since you repeat about the 'money' and 'wallet' issue I will have to say a few things.
isn't an issue. Your just trying to make it one. I can't see that any person that plays this game, who has a job that can't afford to pay, must have some serious finance issues and shouldn't be on the computer in the first place. Hell I'm still in high school and I pay for this. Yes time = skill but why is it such a problem, why don't you realise that thats how it was created and mostly WHY it was created. This isn't a big name company bringing out a Major product that is aimed for the masses, it was created by a small group of friends as a side group effort when they had spare time from work. This is CCP's love child, they are devoted to how it is run and how they want it to run. Yes sometimes the time to train something may seem extream. But thats the point, if you want that lvl 50 and up sword, you have to get there by grinding in every other MMO, in Eve you just train the tree required to use the Cruiser missles, or the Large turret's. That's the comparison, and thats the realistic point.$14.95 a month if you pay the by-month fee or $11 a month for the yearly. How is that big money? You pay more for the electric bill, Hey I pay more then that for the internet a month and I don't even pay half. Money or
But you defending that RL skills have anything to do with MMO is joking, your telling me a guy 300lb's and up has the RL skills to wield a sword & shield combo in combat? Thats almost a Direct take on your argument, But I know it's not your point; your point is that the person with the most online time has the better ability to get to that lvl 50 sword then the guy who can't sit at the computer 23-24/7, and you know thats what you said, you can't deny it. Eve isn't about who has the most online time, the skill training actually removes any online time beyond lvl 3 skills bar changing them. Yes I just used "Eve isn't about" but look at what followed, YOUR ARGUMENT! Stop trying to say that Eve is created for the Dollar and only the Dollar, Eve is virtually the ONLY MMO that helps out parents with young children, teenagers in their last years of Highschool. And anyone that doesn't have 6+ hours a day to grind levels to stay competitive before they reach lvl 60, or 70 or what ever the lvl cap is. Yes in the end you have to pay, but look at WoW don't you have to pay to play there too? What about DAoC, oh I noticed the 14 day trial, that must mean you have to pay. OOOH EQ2 too, LA][ and every other decent MMO. In the end Chaintm every MMO requires you to pay, and really the first month doesn't count unless it's the only time the game actually has content.
Atleast you thought to post that before you started up again.
I seem to be flamming people a lot lately....
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
I couldn't pass up on responding on this one...
Fun does = skill, because when you play any game, the bases of that is real life, you do things to accomplish a goal. As you start in EVE, your goal is to mine and kill pirates. In this you would want to feel you are accomplishing something. Sure a response on this is, "you are, you are gaining wealth". Ok I will give that is a fair argument indeed. However, what fun is it say if you were to be in a standard morph leveling /skilling and only to find out that all you are doing is farming for gold/items. You skills will come in time as you pay to play.
What I don't think you are getting (and most here) is the fact this game is a time payed = skills earned. There is nothing more, Everyone here has said in one degree or another, "well yeah, in a month or so you can.... " so again, we the "new guys" have to wait (pay) till we can compete or accomplish what the average user in today's morphs would consider being an accomplishment.
Hey, people love EVE, it's pretty obvious, I have no gripes about that, but don't pull the wool over people and say this isn't what it is. Tell me, if someone asked you about the game that your response would indicate "time payed = skills earned" of course you wouldn't , because that is something you know people don't regularly accept. You would tell them "well with time and patients, you too can become a padawan" or something to that effect, totally leaving out this fact. Why? it's the reason I gave and nothing more.
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If you think of real life, it is also [skill = time], but the formula [skill = fun] is something, I would not state true. And you now gave me the reason why we may differ in our statements, because for you the assumption [skill = fun] is true - the difference is that you mean EVE has a goal.
For me EVE is a world simulation without a goal, it is a place to live amd have fun. The goal, as you have defined it for you, is what limits your imagination about what EVE might be.
You said "as you start in EVE, your goal is to mine and kill pirates" - that is like if you would say "as you were born into this world, your goal is to learn in order to get a good job" in real life what limits your total life and ensures that you will never have a chance to become rich. But that is not because the world would hinder you to become rich, it is your own thinking what does that to you.
Why should I have to mine and kill pirates in the EVE all the time?- I really dont see that, I could also start an own corporation, attract other people to join it and start business. Now think of the real world in the context of business - you could also say "oh, there are so many people who are superrich and because they spend more time earning money I will never have a chance to catch them and get richer than they are" - what would limit your whole life again.
But luckily there are examples in the real world, that you can catch up to the top if you have a vision or are simply talented for doing business. Bill Gates did it with a vision, the CEO from IKEA with a clever marketing concept. It can be done, but the first thing to achieve this is to get rid of this limiting thinking in your own head.
So, now back to EVE, because it is here as in real life - there are plenty of ways to have fun in EVE, but if you will have fun there from the start depends on if you think "many possibilities, a world full of chances, lets conquer it" or "time-dependent grinding, have to wait until I can start doing something, meanwhile I will mine and kill some pirates" - You are your own enemy when you think that way.
Ragosch
I take the time factor as an equalizer. It does keep the playing field somewhat more level with casual vs. powergamers. Granted it will take months to compete versus seasoned veterans, and even then the newer player will be at some disadvantage, but no matter what game a casual player picks he/she will end up taking months to get to the high end.
The player who spends more time in game will generate revenues, earn faction points and learn more tricks faster than the sporadic player. That is where he/she makes out. Yes, they still have to wait for days to pass as higher end skills train up. But at the end of a week, they likely will have generated millions, and with that skill can now afford a Battlecruiser or some higher end mods they can employ.
But to your point, I can see why many action paced players may not like this game. I however enjoy it alot.
Ok, what the hell, I was typing this on another topic (RF-online Section) and surfed over here to read something cause I was looking for a resource that moved onto interest at another post in this topic, when the other Tab (Firefox user here) to post, and it posted here not there. MMORPG.com is this a site problem or a firefox issue with tabs and forums? [sorry for spam]
"Just because there are other colours to use in chat does not mean you have to use them..." - Please follow
The only "real life skill" that is necessary for other games to advance your character, which EVE does not require, is a "lot of spare time".
I think with these words we can truly close this issue.
must have hit a soft spot for you guys to keep harping on this thread, you still can't win, I can't win there is no wining on this thread this game is time payed=skills, you can argue till your blue in the face ,add how this makes it the game not the skills, this game is a pay monthly like WoW and the rest of them. But the fact remains NO matter what a person does, the can not directly effect their character in game beyond the deepness of their bank account and that is, after all what is pissing you guys off. You agree, let the thread die, so let it, I started it, I have the last word. Oh wait, that will never happen so this thread will live on and on and on and on and on and on, because someone always has to have the last word lol. You guys are hopless.
And to those saying it's a repeat chaintm it's a repeat we get it, ok so why argue it? the game is what it is, let this thread die. Your just defending this title because it's your baby and I understand , I REALLLLLLY Do, but the fact is the same and your arguments that all other games do this are wayyyy off base. I won't even get into it, because in those titles Skills/Levels can be accomplished by personal RL skills which the money factor and time factor have no say. They are tied in , (payments per month) but they do not effect the outcome of my character directly as it is with eve.
So again, let this be the last post and let the thread die, thou again, I doubt anyone can let it.
"The monster created isn't by the company that makes the game, it's by the fans that make it something it never was"
I actually like the skill system in Eve, even though other players have 1+ years on me. Theres no doubt that the person playing longer will have alot more skill points than you, but it doesnt always mean he'll beat you in combat. In 1v1 the only time it will really come down to skills is if you both have the same ship with the same setup. I understand they can use better mods, but once you reach a point where you can use those mods his year advantage on you is lost. I understand theres wholes in my argument but I hope you get the point. You can always train the skills needed for combat up equal to you enemy and just not train the other skills he has (Mining, other ships, ect).
I hate how in games someone that plays 17 hours a day can lvl up to your lvl (Say 60 for WoW) in a fraction of the time you did it. You have been playing for 6 months, him for 6 days and hes the same lvl as you. You get no rewards for being a vet of the game except for a higher knowledge of the game (which for Wow doesnt take alot to grasp).
Eve is setup to give people who play only an hour a day a fighting chance against people who play 15 hours a day. You wont have the same amount of money, but you'll still have a chance.
In things other than combat, you can equal someone's skill in no time at all. All it takes is maybe 4 months of training for mining. If your a trader you can use a transport in 2 months (guess) and a little bit of money. The point is that players who play more shouldnt have a huge advantage (or any at all) over those who have stuck with the game.