It seems that "everybody knows" that F2P MMO's make more money than subscription games.
Except the people that develop and run these games, that is. Apparently they didn't get the memo. And even though their livelihoods depend on the gaming industry, they don't read (or believe) any of these "facts" that are freely available on the internet ? They don't ever talk to their peers, attend conventions or read any trade journals.
If MMO's make more money as F2P, why do the people that run these games resist the F2P transition for as long as possible ? Are they trying to avoid making more money ?
Don't they realise that every month they continue with their sub plans, it costs them millions of dollars in lost F2P revenue ?
Don't they realise that as soon as their investors and shareholders google "F2P revenue" they are all going to be fired ?
Really puzzling...
Since we are posting links so here is one. I don't know from where you got that devs resist going F2P? it might be true in the beginning when it was like sailing through new waters but i doubt in todays market any devs would resist going F2P if given an oppertunity. Maybe Zenimax are too confident about their product but then which dev isn't?
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.' -Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid." -Luke McKinney
i guess it's a small % making these games more money then they ever saw when they had a forced sub -_- either way many games have become more profitable since converting to a hybrid model. so regardless of if it's a small or large % it's more money
You just explained it above, when talking about spending 200+. It's that that keeps those games afloat, the "whales"..
You have made a lot of bad assumptive comments in this thread. But this is just one that sticks out.
There is a reason why this happens. Because there arent enough people willing to pay for soemthing they dont think is worth it. But the fans will spend and pay regardless. So if this game ends up like so many others and there are 100K peopel willing to pay a sub is that enough for Zenimax? Not hardly. They will make a hybrid model of some sort and try and see what the fanbois will still pay and what they will also buy. Then they will put stuff in a cash shop that they think a lot of people will buy.
This guy gets it... thankyou for your time sir, it's much appreciated... i'm glad at least a few people in here are smart enough to realise things for how they are not how they should be in an idealistic world.
and i agree with everything you said completely, especially that these games are more content rich and playing better since adopting a hybrid model, then they ever were as sub based games... people complain Trion have slowed down since adopting a Hybrid model.. no way, they are still full steam ahead.
The fact is, Hybrid models are the way of the future and do make more revenue... if you think that ESO doesnt already have plans if not already putting systems in place for when they are going to make the transition you're crazy, these games release so trashy nowadays because they release full knowing they will go F2P / Hybrid in the first 12 months and usually have people working on the systems so they're ready for when it's time.
First and foremost...I have no problem with F2P, cash shops, or what have you. I do look down on people who care little to spend on things they enjoy, who won't offer their support for it.
Are you saying I'm not smart enough to realize things for how they are? Sounds like it...
The funny part is, You say that yet you completely disregard the point I was making.
My point was the majority do not spend ( at least that's what studies show). SO who's not seeing things for how they are?
there has been NO actual FACT and NO actual STUDIES to prove that the MAJORITY of people dont spend money in Hybrid / Free to play games. the ACTUAL REVENUE numbers from the PUBLISHERS & DEVELOPERS + MY OWN in game experiences DISPROVE your statement that the majority of players dont spend a cent.
Do you understand what i'm saying now, the reason i'm disregarding what you're saying is because there is no actual facts or studies, there is theory and opinion pieces and the stories that do talk about whales and people spending money are web based tower defense games, and mayple story and other non AAA MMORPGS etc...
If you can show me once source from a publisher or developer saying that "the majority of our revenue comes from a small percentage of our playerbase but is able to offset the people playing for free" or anything to that nature, specifically from the publishers or developers because they are the ones who actually know i will concede and accept your point.
Until then, with publishers and developers talking about how their game has got more successful and player numbers and revenue has increased since going hybrid / free to play and revenue hasnt been increased by a small % of players but by the playerbase as a whole. Your argument is invalid.
he still doesnt get it's an opinion / theory piece though, thats the problem... in his mind it's fact.
I linked that because it was the first I saw that gave some numbers. Am I supposed to link you every study I can find, rather than you actually going and informing yourself on this matter?
I never said it was fact by the way, I said it's based on statistics, there's a difference.
i linked like 7 pieces and gave a small rundown on what they were about a couple of pages back when you first put up the google link.. i took the time to try and help you prove your fact, but you cant take the time to make a point, clearly you have no actual backbone in what you're saying so it's easier to tell other people to look for it then show proof... i actually took the time to find proof of your side of the argument and it wasnt even in my favor to do so.
It seems that "everybody knows" that F2P MMO's make more money than subscription games.
Except the people that develop and run these games, that is. Apparently they didn't get the memo. And even though their livelihoods depend on the gaming industry, they don't read (or believe) any of these "facts" that are freely available on the internet ? They don't ever talk to their peers, attend conventions or read any trade journals.
If MMO's make more money as F2P, why do the people that run these games resist the F2P transition for as long as possible ? Are they trying to avoid making more money ?
Don't they realise that every month they continue with their sub plans, it costs them millions of dollars in lost F2P revenue ?
Don't they realise that as soon as their investors and shareholders google "F2P revenue" they are all going to be fired ?
Really puzzling...
takes time to develop / bug test / implement and fill a cash shop, doesnt happen overnight.
Edit - also i addressed this with multiple links previously, to developers / publishers talking about how much more users and revenue has increased since going F2P so yeah... maybe read through next time
This guy gets it... thankyou for your time sir, it's much appreciated... i'm glad at least a few people in here are smart enough to realise things for how they are not how they should be in an idealistic world.
and i agree with everything you said completely, especially that these games are more content rich and playing better since adopting a hybrid model, then they ever were as sub based games... people complain Trion have slowed down since adopting a Hybrid model.. no way, they are still full steam ahead.
The fact is, Hybrid models are the way of the future and do make more revenue... if you think that ESO doesnt already have plans if not already putting systems in place for when they are going to make the transition you're crazy, these games release so trashy nowadays because they release full knowing they will go F2P / Hybrid in the first 12 months and usually have people working on the systems so they're ready for when it's time.
If Trion hadnt taken on Defiance and funneled so much money from Rift into that disaster they might not have made the free to play transition at all. But I am sure they are glad they did.
I am not a fan of the new minecraft like game theyre making but when you look at the money a lot of these browser games make it isnt surprising. A lot of these game make WoW numbers (even the made up ones) look like pocket change.
"old school" MMOs are a thing of the past I think. Yes there are way more gamers nowadays and more 'MMO" players but not the same type of MMO players from even a decade ago.
I think that is why there are two distinct camps in these debates and arguments. I might be an anomaly though because I am older but am not a pro subscription guy. I suspect most of the pro sub guys are guys who have been around awhile (30 +) and have ideas that are unchanged and havent learned from the past 5 years that subs dont work anymore.
I am not opposed to ta sub based game but I said in that post above what it would take to make a game 'subworthy'. Basically a game that isnt grindy but has enough developed content and player made content to keep people busy for months, basically a game you cant see the majority of it before the first expansion comes out. Like I said never going to happen again sadly.
Awwwww
You can stick me in the anomoly camp too As I said earlier I am a pre pub 9 SWG vet I'm 36 so probably one of the oldies arouns here and cut my mmorpg teeth on traditional sub models. I loathed the Freemium/shop model when it became prevalent.
Nowadays, not so much...it definitely has a place in the market imo.
It seems that "everybody knows" that F2P MMO's make more money than subscription games.
Except the people that develop and run these games, that is. Apparently they didn't get the memo. And even though their livelihoods depend on the gaming industry, they don't read (or believe) any of these "facts" that are freely available on the internet ? They don't ever talk to their peers, attend conventions or read any trade journals.
If MMO's make more money as F2P, why do the people that run these games resist the F2P transition for as long as possible ? Are they trying to avoid making more money ?
Don't they realise that every month they continue with their sub plans, it costs them millions of dollars in lost F2P revenue ?
Don't they realise that as soon as their investors and shareholders google "F2P revenue" they are all going to be fired ?
Really puzzling...
Since we are posting links so here is one. I don't know from where you got that devs resist going F2P? it might be true in the beginning when it was like sailing through new waters but i doubt in todays market any devs would resist going F2P if given an oppertunity. Maybe Zenimax are too confident about their product but then which dev isn't?
It seems that "everybody knows" that F2P MMO's make more money than subscription games.
Except the people that develop and run these games, that is. Apparently they didn't get the memo. And even though their livelihoods depend on the gaming industry, they don't read (or believe) any of these "facts" that are freely available on the internet ? They don't ever talk to their peers, attend conventions or read any trade journals.
If MMO's make more money as F2P, why do the people that run these games resist the F2P transition for as long as possible ? Are they trying to avoid making more money ?
Don't they realise that every month they continue with their sub plans, it costs them millions of dollars in lost F2P revenue ?
Don't they realise that as soon as their investors and shareholders google "F2P revenue" they are all going to be fired ?
Really puzzling...
Since we are posting links so here is one. I don't know from where you got that devs resist going F2P? it might be true in the beginning when it was like sailing through new waters but i doubt in todays market any devs would resist going F2P if given an oppertunity. Maybe Zenimax are too confident about their product but then which dev isn't?
So you're basically saying that Zenimax don't believe the SuperdataResearch numbers ?
Because if they did believe those numbers, they'd launch as B2P with a full-blown Cash Shop. No other strategy would be logical.
Unless you're saying F2P makes more money than subs if the subs fall below a certain threshold... ?
if they did the right hybrid model.. i'm saying dont force the sub on people, have a cosmetic cash shop, have an optional sub for people who want to pay it with like "subscriber bonuses" like most other Hybrids do, have a box price and keep everyone happy. i would feel more comfortable at this point in time after already having to pay $96 for the imperial addition due to the price point mark up ZOS decided on and seeing the current state of the game, to after my 30 days is over my sub is optional, if i didnt feel the game was of worthy standard to sub too at that point, i'd probably have a browse in the cash shop for some costumes or mounts or something and spend $40 in the cash shop... when t he game reaches a point in time where i feel it would be worthy of my subscription regardless of the fact i had just spent $160 in the cash shop over the past 4 months... i'd subscribe.
Well it most certainly all makes sense but also sort of proves how sneaky and cost effective developers are.
Let's not fix it now because we can look better showing massive improvements later is a sneaky idea.Let's leave the lag because it costs us less now and again makes us look better later again sort of lame but yes makes sense when ONLY talking about dollars.
I would not jump all over Bethesda/Zeni because i am 99.99% certain all the developers operate under the same ideals.
One of the earlier jobs I had I was trying to help a customer, when I was done the customer left and the owner said, "Remember, we're not here to make friends we're here to make money."
That's philosophy of most businesses today.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
there has been NO actual FACT and NO actual STUDIES to prove that the MAJORITY of people dont spend money in Hybrid / Free to play games. the ACTUAL REVENUE numbers from the PUBLISHERS & DEVELOPERS + MY OWN in game experiences DISPROVE your statement that the majority of players dont spend a cent.
Do you understand what i'm saying now, the reason i'm disregarding what you're saying is because there is no actual facts or studies, there is theory and opinion pieces and the stories that do talk about whales and people spending money are web based tower defense games, and mayple story and other non AAA MMORPGS etc...
If you can show me once source from a publisher or developer saying that "the majority of our revenue comes from a small percentage of our playerbase but is able to offset the people playing for free" or anything to that nature, specifically from the publishers or developers because they are the ones who actually know i will concede and accept your point.
Until then, with publishers and developers talking about how their game has got more successful and player numbers and revenue has increased since going hybrid / free to play and revenue hasnt been increased by a small % of players but by the playerbase as a whole. Your argument is invalid.
Well first I'm talking about F2P games as a whole not just MMO's, second I stress again I never said these were facts. THere's not enough info provided form studios to have facts, hence why I cited statistics rather than "facts".
"Unfortunately, a new report from industry analyst firm Swrve indicates that companies are far more likely to ramp up the pressure to buy in-game products rather than reduce it. The company’s data regarding in-app purchases indicates that while only a fraction of players actually spend money on a game, only a fraction of that fraction actually contribute significantly to the bottom line. Only 49% of players even make a single purchase in a game."
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Personally, I cant wait until launch to see all the fan threads about how the launch is better than this last beta weekend was and all the haters post about the lag and broken missions at launch. This exact same thread will be recreated with the same people making the same points and neither side willing to face any shred of evidence to the contrary of their view.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
he still doesnt get it's an opinion / theory piece though, thats the problem... in his mind it's fact.
I linked that because it was the first I saw that gave some numbers. Am I supposed to link you every study I can find, rather than you actually going and informing yourself on this matter?
I never said it was fact by the way, I said it's based on statistics, there's a difference.
i linked like 7 pieces and gave a small rundown on what they were about a couple of pages back when you first put up the google link.. i took the time to try and help you prove your fact, but you cant take the time to make a point, clearly you have no actual backbone in what you're saying so it's easier to tell other people to look for it then show proof... i actually took the time to find proof of your side of the argument and it wasnt even in my favor to do so.
I have been linking them for you as I find them, just found another one. Posted it a page back. I really don't see how it's hard to believe this for you though ( or you find it invalid). As the turnover rate is astronomical in F2P games there are constantly new players coming in and players leaving. It shouldn't surprise you that a majority just get their free fill and move on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's a good article but again has little to do with hybrid models like rift, tera, aion etc... Again is talking about Web based games and tower defender / mobile games... All of which ESO or any other Mmorpg is. Plus swerves data is based off a 14 day period on what was lead to believed to be dungeon keeper...
It seems that "everybody knows" that F2P MMO's make more money than subscription games.
Except the people that develop and run these games, that is. Apparently they didn't get the memo. And even though their livelihoods depend on the gaming industry, they don't read (or believe) any of these "facts" that are freely available on the internet ? They don't ever talk to their peers, attend conventions or read any trade journals.
If MMO's make more money as F2P, why do the people that run these games resist the F2P transition for as long as possible ? Are they trying to avoid making more money ?
Don't they realise that every month they continue with their sub plans, it costs them millions of dollars in lost F2P revenue ?
Don't they realise that as soon as their investors and shareholders google "F2P revenue" they are all going to be fired ?
Really puzzling...
Since we are posting links so here is one. I don't know from where you got that devs resist going F2P? it might be true in the beginning when it was like sailing through new waters but i doubt in todays market any devs would resist going F2P if given an oppertunity. Maybe Zenimax are too confident about their product but then which dev isn't?
So you're basically saying that Zenimax don't believe the SuperdataResearch numbers ?
Because if they did believe those numbers, they'd launch as B2P with a full-blown Cash Shop. No other strategy would be logical.
Unless you're saying F2P makes more money than subs if the subs fall below a certain threshold... ?
if they did the right hybrid model.. i'm saying dont force the sub on people, have a cosmetic cash shop, have an optional sub for people who want to pay it with like "subscriber bonuses" like most other Hybrids do, have a box price and keep everyone happy. i would feel more comfortable at this point in time after already having to pay $96 for the imperial addition due to the price point mark up ZOS decided on and seeing the current state of the game, to after my 30 days is over my sub is optional, if i didnt feel the game was of worthy standard to sub too at that point, i'd probably have a browse in the cash shop for some costumes or mounts or something and spend $40 in the cash shop... when t he game reaches a point in time where i feel it would be worthy of my subscription regardless of the fact i had just spent $160 in the cash shop over the past 4 months... i'd subscribe.
Even though anecdotes about your personal spending patterns in MMO's are interesting, it does not address my question.
TWO AAA MMO's that are about to launch are doing so as subscription games. Their developers loudly proclaim they will not be adopting the "F2P" monetization model. These games have both been under development for the past few years, whilst the data regarding "F2P revenue" has been widely publicised. Yet these developers persist in charging subs.
We could say that Zenimax is ignorant of what happens in the MMO market, but nobody is going to convince me that NCSoft are clueless about F2P revenue. Yet Wildstar is not launching as F2P or B2P, but as subscription based ?
Surely NCSoft (of all companies) should know that F2P is more profitable than subscription ? They have intimate knowledge of GW2's revenue. If F2P makes more than subs, why would NCSoft knowingly launch with a payment scheme that will lose them money ?
Oh yeah I just downloaded the swerve report from that article you linked... It's based off mobile gaming dude... Come on now, that's grasping at threads
Originally posted by mbrodie It's a good article but again has little to do with hybrid models like rift, tera, aion etc... Again is talking about Web based games and tower defender / mobile games... All of which ESO or any other Mmorpg is. Plus swerves data is based off a 14 day period on what was lead to believed to be dungeon keeper...
Yep that's how statistics work sometimes. As well as how analyzing markets works. Did market research myself for a number of years. It's never a 100 percent accurate result, or a fool proof case study, that's really not important in a general study like this. What it shows is tendency, which for many industries is enough to base their business plans around.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by mbrodie Oh yeah I just downloaded the swerve report from that article you linked... It's based off mobile gaming dude... Come on now, that's grasping at threads
Uhgg, read my last post... It's a f2p study... that's what you were asking for...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A couple things to keep in mind. One, we're not playing on the same patch as the PTS (Personal EDIT: PTS is on 0.181. It's not confirmed whether the weekend Beta was on 0.18 or 0.181). As a whole, the game is not running at full capacity for a closed beta. They have confirmed on the 14th that we were all playing from a centralized datacenter, and that additional hubs and agreements with content delivery networks were in place, though inactive prior to launch.
The project directors and their army of project managers are all trained the same way for a project launch. If the cost benefit analysis of launching full resources prior to launch does not generate a revenue or value (be it marketing, sales, etc.), the it is not worth the many thousands of dollars it costs for 2 weeks of operation on a dead platform (considering the platform would be gnerating no value or usable information). Because of what the 'Megaserver' is, the implementation of such is one that additional servers will only add to the overall computing power/instancing/connections of the framework when they are added, and ZoS/Bethesda can get a pretty accurate gauge of what they will need to support launch.
They had over 5 million different beta applications/keys for beta. That is more than the bulk of all GW2 copies that have ever been sold...and that is just beta keys. They are promising a 'lag free' experience at launch, and have confirmed that they have agreements in place for swarms of additional server nodes to come online should they need it.
And lastly, every project director and manager is desperately trying to do one thing right now: Manage expectations in the most notoriously angry and loud demographic. If everything was smooth, then every project manager would be sweating the minor inconvenience at launch that would cost them their reputation/jobs or whatever. As a result, they are all trying to walk a fine line between bugs and smooth gameplay, knowing that they will get FAR more value from showing improvement in many areas than they would by proving their competency with a smooth game in closed beta. They can go smooth launch and let the detractors complain about the "little things" they haven't fixed, or they can show dramatic improvement and have the supporters encourage their 'progress'.
EDIT: Post Credit goes to Peridyn, as he was the original Author
Now, if you played the Beta this weekend you might have noticed that most of the bugs were spawn related and the sorts. Many people have also reported that re-logging in was fixing many issues. Why would relog fix it? That's because relog puts you into another shard which is less populated. People also reported that the content up ahead where the population was low was quite bug free. Again, this relates to the same reason here. They didn't use all the server clusters planned for launch hence the servers got stressed a lot which caused the ridiculous number of spawn related and quest completion bugs. So, just calm down and see. Most MMOs are buggy at launch. This one isn't gonna be any different.
Most MMOs used to be buggy at launch, however over the years typicall mmo developers have learned that buggy launches kill a game rather quickly... And so all major MMOs over the last 2 years released in a much much better state...swtor, rift, tsw, gw2 Terra worked quite good and only had very few bugs at release..... Its because thses deveopers learned from buggy releases that they are not accepted by the cmmunity and keep hurting the game for years after release even if the bugs where removed two months after release
Releasing a buggy or unfinished MMO has allways resulted in capital failure..
on top of that, its obvious that they cant reproduce the spawn buggs that plagued us in the latest beta, on their internal testing servers. The problem is phases getting bugged, and no self repair or resetting system in place... So these phases stay buggs and as people leave the phase behind, other new people enter the same bugged area...
makes me wonder if they even have a monitoring system in place that detects these problems and allows them to reset these bugged areas...
if you can not reproduce a bug in your testing area, there is no way that they can repair or prevent it from happening again..
and sure the internal test severs have a much fresher patch, but then i bet in those patches they have other problems because of all the new stuff they try to add in the last minutes.... Most companies that produce software stop adding new stuff some weeks before release of a new version, from that point on they keep repairing and improving the stuff thats allready in the current version.
the fact that Zenimax keeps adding stuff last minute spells certain doom to me...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
@Spottygekko. - ESO pride and arrogance, like when I asked them on the phone about why they are charging international to US customers 50% more for the game and the response was "our pricing is aligned with other AAA titles" to which my reply was "which pretty much every other mmo I've bought over the past 12 years I've never had a 50% markup and most of those games don't even require a subscription anymore" to which the rep said "as we are a AAA mmo, we have aligned our prices with other AAA Mmorpgso currently on the market" to me sounds like an over inflated ego in the product coupled with greed and a bad market research department that should be fired..... Obviously if their data based off the single player boxed sales in the past makes them think they can bleed the customer dry they are going todo that... With teso, being their first MMO they are going to have to realise they will have to adipt a hybrid model not realise it was best from the get go... Again marking the game up 50% on digital sales + sales taxes where it applies is not standard practice for an mmo publisher but ESO thinks it's ok because that's the normal worth retail versions of their single plays games... Terrible market research department.
Wildstar has literally made Wow in space with better graphics and improved combat, they probably feel they can recreate Wows success with a space version of wow literally.
the fact that Zenimax keeps adding stuff last minute spells certain doom to me...
Yeah, with the results of things like CD, it's resources and time wasted, the effort would have been better spent on quality of life issues like what's breaking quests.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by mbrodie @distopia F2P MMORPG, not mobile games is apples and oranges.
IN the F2P market they're not really considered separate entities. Hence why even folks like Raph Koster cite these types of results in reference to MMO's.
The one thing I"d give you here is that MMORPG's are a longer time investment than a typical mobile game as well as (most likely) would have a larger install base of core gamers, so there will be a greater amount of people spending money, yet that doesn't mean the percentage of those spending would be different.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I play mmos I don't play mobile games at all... You know who plays mobile games, my parents, aunts, uncles, there teenage and preteen kids... People who wouldn't know what Mmorpg.com is. They are very seperate demographics and entities hence why the actions in mobile games aren't mimicked in Mmorpgs and vice versa.
A couple things to keep in mind. One, we're not playing on the same patch as the PTS (Personal EDIT: PTS is on 0.181. It's not confirmed whether the weekend Beta was on 0.18 or 0.181). As a whole, the game is not running at full capacity for a closed beta. They have confirmed on the 14th that we were all playing from a centralized datacenter, and that additional hubs and agreements with content delivery networks were in place, though inactive prior to launch.
The project directors and their army of project managers are all trained the same way for a project launch. If the cost benefit analysis of launching full resources prior to launch does not generate a revenue or value (be it marketing, sales, etc.), the it is not worth the many thousands of dollars it costs for 2 weeks of operation on a dead platform (considering the platform would be gnerating no value or usable information). Because of what the 'Megaserver' is, the implementation of such is one that additional servers will only add to the overall computing power/instancing/connections of the framework when they are added, and ZoS/Bethesda can get a pretty accurate gauge of what they will need to support launch.
They had over 5 million different beta applications/keys for beta. That is more than the bulk of all GW2 copies that have ever been sold...and that is just beta keys. They are promising a 'lag free' experience at launch, and have confirmed that they have agreements in place for swarms of additional server nodes to come online should they need it.
And lastly, every project director and manager is desperately trying to do one thing right now: Manage expectations in the most notoriously angry and loud demographic. If everything was smooth, then every project manager would be sweating the minor inconvenience at launch that would cost them their reputation/jobs or whatever. As a result, they are all trying to walk a fine line between bugs and smooth gameplay, knowing that they will get FAR more value from showing improvement in many areas than they would by proving their competency with a smooth game in closed beta. They can go smooth launch and let the detractors complain about the "little things" they haven't fixed, or they can show dramatic improvement and have the supporters encourage their 'progress'.
EDIT: Post Credit goes to Peridyn, as he was the original Author
Now, if you played the Beta this weekend you might have noticed that most of the bugs were spawn related and the sorts. Many people have also reported that re-logging in was fixing many issues. Why would relog fix it? That's because relog puts you into another shard which is less populated. People also reported that the content up ahead where the population was low was quite bug free. Again, this relates to the same reason here. They didn't use all the server clusters planned for launch hence the servers got stressed a lot which caused the ridiculous number of spawn related and quest completion bugs. So, just calm down and see. Most MMOs are buggy at launch. This one isn't gonna be any different.
Most MMOs used to be buggy at launch, however over the years typicall mmo developers have learned that buggy launches kill a game rather quickly... And so all major MMOs over the last 2 years released in a much much better state...swtor, rift, tsw, gw2 Terra worked quite good and only had very few bugs at release..... Its because thses deveopers learned from buggy releases that they are not accepted by the cmmunity and keep hurting the game for years after release even if the bugs where removed two months after release
Releasing a buggy or unfinished MMO has allways resulted in capital failure..
on top of that, its obvious that they cant reproduce the spawn buggs that plagued us in the latest beta, on their internal testing servers. The problem is phases getting bugged, and no self repair or resetting system in place... So these phases stay buggs and as people leave the phase behind, other new people enter the same bugged area...
makes me wonder if they even have a monitoring system in place that detects these problems and allows them to reset these bugged areas...
if you can not reproduce a bug in your testing area, there is no way that they can repair or prevent it from happening again..
and sure the internal test severs have a much fresher patch, but then i bet in those patches they have other problems because of all the new stuff they try to add in the last minutes.... Most companies that produce software stop adding new stuff some weeks before release of a new version, from that point on they keep repairing and improving the stuff thats allready in the current version.
the fact that Zenimax keeps adding stuff last minute spells certain doom to me...
Zomg!!
Bachus I think your account has been hacked by the hatorz!!
The PTS server is running the exact same build as this past weekend's public beta test. No new patch has been put on the PTS server.
Sadly, there are numerous bugs in main quest lines, even at lower levels. Alot of imbalances in the game (for example, there is no reason to use heavy armor for anything, not even tanking). I am a VR 10 DK.
Comments
Since we are posting links so here is one. I don't know from where you got that devs resist going F2P? it might be true in the beginning when it was like sailing through new waters but i doubt in todays market any devs would resist going F2P if given an oppertunity. Maybe Zenimax are too confident about their product but then which dev isn't?
http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/why-your-game-should-be-f2p/
"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell
"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney
there has been NO actual FACT and NO actual STUDIES to prove that the MAJORITY of people dont spend money in Hybrid / Free to play games. the ACTUAL REVENUE numbers from the PUBLISHERS & DEVELOPERS + MY OWN in game experiences DISPROVE your statement that the majority of players dont spend a cent.
Do you understand what i'm saying now, the reason i'm disregarding what you're saying is because there is no actual facts or studies, there is theory and opinion pieces and the stories that do talk about whales and people spending money are web based tower defense games, and mayple story and other non AAA MMORPGS etc...
If you can show me once source from a publisher or developer saying that "the majority of our revenue comes from a small percentage of our playerbase but is able to offset the people playing for free" or anything to that nature, specifically from the publishers or developers because they are the ones who actually know i will concede and accept your point.
Until then, with publishers and developers talking about how their game has got more successful and player numbers and revenue has increased since going hybrid / free to play and revenue hasnt been increased by a small % of players but by the playerbase as a whole. Your argument is invalid.
i linked like 7 pieces and gave a small rundown on what they were about a couple of pages back when you first put up the google link.. i took the time to try and help you prove your fact, but you cant take the time to make a point, clearly you have no actual backbone in what you're saying so it's easier to tell other people to look for it then show proof... i actually took the time to find proof of your side of the argument and it wasnt even in my favor to do so.
takes time to develop / bug test / implement and fill a cash shop, doesnt happen overnight.
Edit - also i addressed this with multiple links previously, to developers / publishers talking about how much more users and revenue has increased since going F2P so yeah... maybe read through next time
Awwwww
You can stick me in the anomoly camp too
As I said earlier I am a pre pub 9 SWG vet I'm 36 so probably one of the oldies arouns here 
and cut my mmorpg teeth on traditional sub models. I loathed the Freemium/shop model when it became prevalent.
Nowadays, not so much...it definitely has a place in the market imo.
Based on looking at all the MMO's on the market.
Every business model and hybrid there of makes money.
Companies adapt to the business model that will make them the most money based on their current metrics.
MMO players will QQ about anything and everything and try to convince everyone around them to believe the same thing.
So you're basically saying that Zenimax don't believe the SuperdataResearch numbers ?
Because if they did believe those numbers, they'd launch as B2P with a full-blown Cash Shop. No other strategy would be logical.
Unless you're saying F2P makes more money than subs if the subs fall below a certain threshold... ?
if they did the right hybrid model.. i'm saying dont force the sub on people, have a cosmetic cash shop, have an optional sub for people who want to pay it with like "subscriber bonuses" like most other Hybrids do, have a box price and keep everyone happy. i would feel more comfortable at this point in time after already having to pay $96 for the imperial addition due to the price point mark up ZOS decided on and seeing the current state of the game, to after my 30 days is over my sub is optional, if i didnt feel the game was of worthy standard to sub too at that point, i'd probably have a browse in the cash shop for some costumes or mounts or something and spend $40 in the cash shop... when t he game reaches a point in time where i feel it would be worthy of my subscription regardless of the fact i had just spent $160 in the cash shop over the past 4 months... i'd subscribe.
One of the earlier jobs I had I was trying to help a customer, when I was done the customer left and the owner said, "Remember, we're not here to make friends we're here to make money."
That's philosophy of most businesses today.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Well first I'm talking about F2P games as a whole not just MMO's, second I stress again I never said these were facts. THere's not enough info provided form studios to have facts, hence why I cited statistics rather than "facts".
Here's one of the studies I was looking for...
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/177409-only-0-15-of-players-account-for-50-of-free-to-play-game-revenue
"Unfortunately, a new report from industry analyst firm Swrve indicates that companies are far more likely to ramp up the pressure to buy in-game products rather than reduce it. The company’s data regarding in-app purchases indicates that while only a fraction of players actually spend money on a game, only a fraction of that fraction actually contribute significantly to the bottom line. Only 49% of players even make a single purchase in a game."
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Personally, I cant wait until launch to see all the fan threads about how the launch is better than this last beta weekend was and all the haters post about the lag and broken missions at launch. This exact same thread will be recreated with the same people making the same points and neither side willing to face any shred of evidence to the contrary of their view.
I have been linking them for you as I find them, just found another one. Posted it a page back. I really don't see how it's hard to believe this for you though ( or you find it invalid). As the turnover rate is astronomical in F2P games there are constantly new players coming in and players leaving. It shouldn't surprise you that a majority just get their free fill and move on.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even though anecdotes about your personal spending patterns in MMO's are interesting, it does not address my question.
TWO AAA MMO's that are about to launch are doing so as subscription games. Their developers loudly proclaim they will not be adopting the "F2P" monetization model. These games have both been under development for the past few years, whilst the data regarding "F2P revenue" has been widely publicised. Yet these developers persist in charging subs.
We could say that Zenimax is ignorant of what happens in the MMO market, but nobody is going to convince me that NCSoft are clueless about F2P revenue. Yet Wildstar is not launching as F2P or B2P, but as subscription based ?
Surely NCSoft (of all companies) should know that F2P is more profitable than subscription ? They have intimate knowledge of GW2's revenue. If F2P makes more than subs, why would NCSoft knowingly launch with a payment scheme that will lose them money ?
Yep that's how statistics work sometimes. As well as how analyzing markets works. Did market research myself for a number of years. It's never a 100 percent accurate result, or a fool proof case study, that's really not important in a general study like this. What it shows is tendency, which for many industries is enough to base their business plans around.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Uhgg, read my last post... It's a f2p study... that's what you were asking for...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Most MMOs used to be buggy at launch, however over the years typicall mmo developers have learned that buggy launches kill a game rather quickly... And so all major MMOs over the last 2 years released in a much much better state...swtor, rift, tsw, gw2 Terra worked quite good and only had very few bugs at release..... Its because thses deveopers learned from buggy releases that they are not accepted by the cmmunity and keep hurting the game for years after release even if the bugs where removed two months after release
Releasing a buggy or unfinished MMO has allways resulted in capital failure..
on top of that, its obvious that they cant reproduce the spawn buggs that plagued us in the latest beta, on their internal testing servers. The problem is phases getting bugged, and no self repair or resetting system in place... So these phases stay buggs and as people leave the phase behind, other new people enter the same bugged area...
makes me wonder if they even have a monitoring system in place that detects these problems and allows them to reset these bugged areas...
if you can not reproduce a bug in your testing area, there is no way that they can repair or prevent it from happening again..
and sure the internal test severs have a much fresher patch, but then i bet in those patches they have other problems because of all the new stuff they try to add in the last minutes.... Most companies that produce software stop adding new stuff some weeks before release of a new version, from that point on they keep repairing and improving the stuff thats allready in the current version.
the fact that Zenimax keeps adding stuff last minute spells certain doom to me...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Wildstar has literally made Wow in space with better graphics and improved combat, they probably feel they can recreate Wows success with a space version of wow literally.
Yeah, with the results of things like CD, it's resources and time wasted, the effort would have been better spent on quality of life issues like what's breaking quests.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
IN the F2P market they're not really considered separate entities. Hence why even folks like Raph Koster cite these types of results in reference to MMO's.
The one thing I"d give you here is that MMORPG's are a longer time investment than a typical mobile game as well as (most likely) would have a larger install base of core gamers, so there will be a greater amount of people spending money, yet that doesn't mean the percentage of those spending would be different.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Zomg!!
Bachus I think your account has been hacked by the hatorz!!
The PTS server is running the exact same build as this past weekend's public beta test. No new patch has been put on the PTS server.
Sadly, there are numerous bugs in main quest lines, even at lower levels. Alot of imbalances in the game (for example, there is no reason to use heavy armor for anything, not even tanking). I am a VR 10 DK.