Why, indeed, should your success in a game depend on what you do in that game? Surely the answer to that is obvious.
pretty much this.
I have to say, I didn't LOVE pvp until I pvp'ed in tera. It's very difficult for me to go back to tab target games.
Pretty much how I feel recently tried FF14arr after playing tera for such a long time I couldn't get myself into the game combat felt so week slow and boring
Originally posted by Holophonist Tab targeting is just flat out boring for a lot of us.
I understand that. And I think most action combat players are this way. Standing in one spot, playing cavemen with clubs, taking turns bonking each other over the head is boring to many players.
For a lot of tab target-liking players, this is where the role play comes in. This is where they get test how they built there character with skills and abilities. Maybe even find out where your character needs to improve.
I liken this as a little bit like raising a child. At some point in time, you have to let that go and hope that all those years of teaching sunk in. As a parent, all you can do is sit back, worry, and hope they do OK. Us parents can not take those math quizzes for them or do their science projects for them. We can be near and help guide them, if needed, but can not do the work for them anymore. Many tab target players can see their characters as their children in the virtual world. While we may want to help them when they flounder, we are OK with letting them flounder on their own and guiding them afterwards to improve themselves.
Or, maybe *I* am the only one who sees it this way
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
"And I think most action combat players are this way. Standing in one spot, playing cavemen with clubs"
- you've never played Aion I gather?
tab-targeting it is, but you want to venture out into the open pvp world and stand still while you're in combat? Well you can if you want, after all giving free AP to others could be seen as a very generous act.
Originally posted by JudgeUK "And I think most action combat players are this way. Standing in one spot, playing cavemen with clubs"- you've never played Aion I gather?tab-targeting it is, but you want to venture out into the open pvp world and stand still while you're in combat? Well you can if you want, after all giving free AP to others could be seen as a very generous act.
A lot of tab targeting MMOs have rooted abilities/skills. You can NOT move while casting or firing off a bow.
No, I've never played Aion. I have played EQ (rooted), WoW (lots of rooting), and CoH (some rooting).
That last paragraph sounds more like action (twitch) combat to me, but what do I know
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Holophonist But either way, all I'm saying is twitch aiming is not fundamentally different than you having to do anything else in the game. It's no different than walking around even. So that's fine if YOU PERSONALLY want to draw the line at twitch aiming, either because you're bad at it or just don't like it, but let's not pretend that there's some objective reason to draw the line there. It has NOTHING to do with roleplaying. Twitch aiming is not at all in conflict with roleplaying.
This is where we disagree. Roleplayng, for me, is all about my character, not me. When you are mouse aiming, *you* are the one fighting, not your character. Also, when you aim, there is no missing your target, except if they dodge, parry, or block, but *your* aiming always hits where *you* are aiming. 100% accuracy.
Tab targeting uses RNG to figure out if *your character* hits or not. Just because you are facing the right way does not mean 100% accuracy, even when the target is "locked on" your character can miss.
This is a huge difference for me. I think that qualifies as an "objective reason."
The rest of the game, you are "guiding" your character. "Hey, Koldaar, go mine some ore here." "Hey, Florry, use a Fireball spell now." "Hey, Kincaid, play me a song (you're the piano man)."
Am I making sense?
None of this explains why aiming is different than any other action you can perform in the game. Is it because you can miss? Well what if you choose the wrong spell in a tab targeting game? Is that not similar to missing in an fps game? What about exploring? Why can't you tell your avatar to go explore some cave while you watch? Because you want to DO it yourself. Twitch aiming is no different. The only difference is it's more engaging than these other tasks and often faster paced.
Originally posted by Holophonist Tab targeting is just flat out boring for a lot of us.
I understand that. And I think most action combat players are this way. Standing in one spot, playing cavemen with clubs, taking turns bonking each other over the head is boring to many players.
For a lot of tab target-liking players, this is where the role play comes in. This is where they get test how they built there character with skills and abilities. Maybe even find out where your character needs to improve.
I liken this as a little bit like raising a child. At some point in time, you have to let that go and hope that all those years of teaching sunk in. As a parent, all you can do is sit back, worry, and hope they do OK. Us parents can not take those math quizzes for them or do their science projects for them. We can be near and help guide them, if needed, but can not do the work for them anymore. Many tab target players can see their characters as their children in the virtual world. While we may want to help them when they flounder, we are OK with letting them flounder on their own and guiding them afterwards to improve themselves.
Or, maybe *I* am the only one who sees it this way
Well that's fine but you're still performing OTHER actions for them. You're not just letting them do their thing and seeing how well they perform. You're moving around, you're choosing abilities, you're choosing targets, you're using potions, you're using bandages, etc. Why is aiming any different? Obviously it's because people aren't used to it in MMOs.
Originally posted by Holophonist Tab targeting is just flat out boring for a lot of us.
I understand that. And I think most action combat players are this way. Standing in one spot, playing cavemen with clubs, taking turns bonking each other over the head is boring to many players.For a lot of tab target-liking players, this is where the role play comes in. This is where they get test how they built there character with skills and abilities. Maybe even find out where your character needs to improve.I liken this as a little bit like raising a child. At some point in time, you have to let that go and hope that all those years of teaching sunk in. As a parent, all you can do is sit back, worry, and hope they do OK. Us parents can not take those math quizzes for them or do their science projects for them. We can be near and help guide them, if needed, but can not do the work for them anymore. Many tab target players can see their characters as their children in the virtual world. While we may want to help them when they flounder, we are OK with letting them flounder on their own and guiding them afterwards to improve themselves.Or, maybe *I* am the only one who sees it this way
Well that's fine but you're still performing OTHER actions for them. You're not just letting them do their thing and seeing how well they perform. You're moving around, you're choosing abilities, you're choosing targets, you're using potions, you're using bandages, etc. Why is aiming any different? Obviously it's because people aren't used to it in MMOs.
"Other actions" are NOT combat actions where mouse skill and reaction time are the ONLY requirements.
How tough is it, would you guess, to hold down the "W" key and move forward? Pretty much almost anyone can do it, right? And pretty much with equal ability? Sure, there may be some players that may have a handicap doing this, but many would either not play or have a workaround somehow.
How about clicking a mouse button and mining an ore node? How hard is that, do you suppose? Does that take lightning reflexes and super natural hand-eye coordination?
What about clicking on 2 or 3 ingredients to perform crafting? Is that pretty tough? Is this where the men are separated from the boys?
If you still don't get, I'll let someone else try.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
If I can dodge attacks because of my lightning reflexes, what do I need armor for? If my ability to hit is based on my eye-hand coordination, why have an 'attack' stat of any kind?
The basic problem with 'twitch' is that it contradicts the notion that everything depends on numerical stats, which has been the core of RPGs since the days of pen and paper.
I'm pretty partial to the combat in games like Bioshock or even Alan Wake. I'm fine with tab-target, cooldown controlled abilities too, but it doesn't seem like anyone is going to make it as smooth as WoW. So if a game is going to use that style of combat, they should just copy WoW as close as they can, because they aren't really going to make it any better.
One thing I am sure of though is that developers should pick a style, and then go with it. Don't try to do half of one with half of the other. It just doesn't work. I suppose it's possible for a developer to come up with something new, but it's been like twenty years. In regards to the combat, just go mostly with what we know already works, whether it's twitch/fps combat or tab-target cooldown controlled combat.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well that's fine but you're still performing OTHER actions for them. You're not just letting them do their thing and seeing how well they perform. You're moving around, you're choosing abilities, you're choosing targets, you're using potions, you're using bandages, etc. Why is aiming any different? Obviously it's because people aren't used to it in MMOs.
"Other actions" are NOT combat actions where mouse skill and reaction time are the ONLY requirements.
How tough is it, would you guess, to hold down the "W" key and move forward? Pretty much almost anyone can do it, right? And pretty much with equal ability? Sure, there may be some players that may have a handicap doing this, but many would either not play or have a workaround somehow.
How about clicking a mouse button and mining an ore node? How hard is that, do you suppose? Does that take lightning reflexes and super natural hand-eye coordination?
What about clicking on 2 or 3 ingredients to perform crafting? Is that pretty tough? Is this where the men are separated from the boys?
If you still don't get, I'll let someone else try.
Honestly, it just sounds like you are saying "I'm not very good at it. So therefore i do not like it.".. I"ve also played many twitch games.. and actively play AOW... and GODLIKE reflexes aren't necessary.. its just as timing and prediction oriented as any other game.
PPl like you have said that twitch games are less thought provoking because of big red circles... but a lot of twitch games also feature pvp... and the majority of time its not about reacting to big red circles or reflexes.. it is about outsmarting your opponent or outsmarting the npc... which is no different then what you do in a tab target game.
Originally posted by Holophonist Tab targeting is just flat out boring for a lot of us.
I understand that. And I think most action combat players are this way. Standing in one spot, playing cavemen with clubs, taking turns bonking each other over the head is boring to many players.
For a lot of tab target-liking players, this is where the role play comes in. This is where they get test how they built there character with skills and abilities. Maybe even find out where your character needs to improve.
I liken this as a little bit like raising a child. At some point in time, you have to let that go and hope that all those years of teaching sunk in. As a parent, all you can do is sit back, worry, and hope they do OK. Us parents can not take those math quizzes for them or do their science projects for them. We can be near and help guide them, if needed, but can not do the work for them anymore. Many tab target players can see their characters as their children in the virtual world. While we may want to help them when they flounder, we are OK with letting them flounder on their own and guiding them afterwards to improve themselves.
Or, maybe *I* am the only one who sees it this way
Well that's fine but you're still performing OTHER actions for them. You're not just letting them do their thing and seeing how well they perform. You're moving around, you're choosing abilities, you're choosing targets, you're using potions, you're using bandages, etc. Why is aiming any different? Obviously it's because people aren't used to it in MMOs.
"Other actions" are NOT combat actions where mouse skill and reaction time are the ONLY requirements.
How tough is it, would you guess, to hold down the "W" key and move forward? Pretty much almost anyone can do it, right? And pretty much with equal ability? Sure, there may be some players that may have a handicap doing this, but many would either not play or have a workaround somehow.
How about clicking a mouse button and mining an ore node? How hard is that, do you suppose? Does that take lightning reflexes and super natural hand-eye coordination?
What about clicking on 2 or 3 ingredients to perform crafting? Is that pretty tough? Is this where the men are separated from the boys?
If you still don't get, I'll let someone else try.
Ugh, if you're going to be condescending, you should probably also make sure you're right. Those things are nothing but a matter of degree. There are other things that could be considered difficult that you haven't expressed a problem with. The difficulty in tab targeting games usually comes in the form of managing cooldowns, using the appropriate spells at the appropriate time, etc. Are you against ALL difficulty in roleplaying games? Or are you just arbitrarily drawing a line somewhere? By the way, it's fine if you simply prefer a certain type of game, but I'll say it again, don't act like twitch aiming is fundamentally different. It isn't. There's nothing anti-roleplaying about twitch aiming. Nothing.
If I can dodge attacks because of my lightning reflexes, what do I need armor for? If my ability to hit is based on my eye-hand coordination, why have an 'attack' stat of any kind?
The basic problem with 'twitch' is that it contradicts the notion that everything depends on numerical stats, which has been the core of RPGs since the days of pen and paper.
That's like saying being smart about what abilities you use undermines the core concept that your in-game avatar has an intelligence stat.
Originally posted by Holophonist Well that's fine but you're still performing OTHER actions for them. You're not just letting them do their thing and seeing how well they perform. You're moving around, you're choosing abilities, you're choosing targets, you're using potions, you're using bandages, etc. Why is aiming any different? Obviously it's because people aren't used to it in MMOs.
"Other actions" are NOT combat actions where mouse skill and reaction time are the ONLY requirements.How tough is it, would you guess, to hold down the "W" key and move forward? Pretty much almost anyone can do it, right? And pretty much with equal ability? Sure, there may be some players that may have a handicap doing this, but many would either not play or have a workaround somehow.How about clicking a mouse button and mining an ore node? How hard is that, do you suppose? Does that take lightning reflexes and super natural hand-eye coordination?What about clicking on 2 or 3 ingredients to perform crafting? Is that pretty tough? Is this where the men are separated from the boys?If you still don't get, I'll let someone else try.
Honestly, it just sounds like you are saying "I'm not very good at it. So therefore i do not like it.".. I"ve also played many twitch games.. and actively play AOW... and GODLIKE reflexes aren't necessary.. its just as timing and prediction oriented as any other game.PPl like you have said that twitch games are less thought provoking because of big red circles... but a lot of twitch games also feature pvp... and the majority of time its not about reacting to big red circles or reflexes.. it is about outsmarting your opponent or outsmarting the npc... which is no different then what you do in a tab target game.
It is partially that "I suck at it", but I can hold my own. It is more the tiresome REPEATED mouse clicking that gets my fingers, hand, and wrist tired quickly. You see, action combat has NO downtime. None at all. I don't need it for my character, but rather for me.
Action combat has its place and in some instances, I enjoy it. But ONLY in short spurts.
"Reaction", contrary to popular belief is NOT "thought provoking." It is reaction to what is happening on screen. Is there a big difference between twitch combat and "Quicktime Events (QTE)?" Not really. You gotta click at the right time, right? May I ask where the "thought provocation" is here? If you're "thinking" during twitch combat, you're dead, right? That seems to be *my* trouble with it. I tend to want to think things through and twitch combat just does allow for that.
You just do not have time for "Do I use this power here, or wait for another opening?" You're dead of you do.
Again, I am NOT against twitch combat. It has its place (like FPS or Action Adventure games). RPGs? Not so much, in my opinion.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Holophonist Well that's fine but you're still performing OTHER actions for them. You're not just letting them do their thing and seeing how well they perform. You're moving around, you're choosing abilities, you're choosing targets, you're using potions, you're using bandages, etc. Why is aiming any different? Obviously it's because people aren't used to it in MMOs.
"Other actions" are NOT combat actions where mouse skill and reaction time are the ONLY requirements.
How tough is it, would you guess, to hold down the "W" key and move forward? Pretty much almost anyone can do it, right? And pretty much with equal ability? Sure, there may be some players that may have a handicap doing this, but many would either not play or have a workaround somehow.
How about clicking a mouse button and mining an ore node? How hard is that, do you suppose? Does that take lightning reflexes and super natural hand-eye coordination?
What about clicking on 2 or 3 ingredients to perform crafting? Is that pretty tough? Is this where the men are separated from the boys?
If you still don't get, I'll let someone else try.
Honestly, it just sounds like you are saying "I'm not very good at it. So therefore i do not like it.".. I"ve also played many twitch games.. and actively play AOW... and GODLIKE reflexes aren't necessary.. its just as timing and prediction oriented as any other game.
PPl like you have said that twitch games are less thought provoking because of big red circles... but a lot of twitch games also feature pvp... and the majority of time its not about reacting to big red circles or reflexes.. it is about outsmarting your opponent or outsmarting the npc... which is no different then what you do in a tab target game.
It is partially that "I suck at it", but I can hold my own. It is more the tiresome REPEATED mouse clicking that gets my fingers, hand, and wrist tired quickly. You see, action combat has NO downtime. None at all. I don't need it for my character, but rather for me.
Action combat has its place and in some instances, I enjoy it. But ONLY in short spurts.
"Reaction", contrary to popular belief is NOT "thought provoking." It is reaction to what is happening on screen. Is there a big difference between twitch combat and "Quicktime Events (QTE)?" Not really. You gotta click at the right time, right? May I ask where the "thought provocation" is here? If you're "thinking" during twitch combat, you're dead, right? That seems to be *my* trouble with it. I tend to want to think things through and twitch combat just does allow for that.
You just do not have time for "Do I use this power here, or wait for another opening?" You're dead of you do.
Again, I am NOT against twitch combat. It has its place (like FPS or Action Adventure games). RPGs? Not so much, in my opinion.
reaction time is made up of two components... physical reaction speed.. and mental processes.... you do think when playing twitch combat... you have to decide how to avoid.. what direction to roll.. if you want to avoid it at all.. or if you'd rather use a skill instead.. particularly a stun... it's not just about rolling/dodging. I won't deny that some do not.. I.E. GW2 is light on the mental aspect imo.
Even in your post here it still sounds the same.. I'm not good/ it's tiring so i don't like it. No offense.. it seems that you think and react a little slowly.. as I mentioned above.. AOW.. requires both. In fact in every guild I've played in I've always been one of the best if not the best PVPer... I just don't like AOW's invest a million hours of gameplay and market focus.
Twitch and traditional gameplay mechanics aren't much different inherently other than involving movement.. Other than that, it all depends on the direction the Dev's want to go with the combat.
I also believe you have a different definition of rp, particularly when it comes to combat. Are you one of those who wish mmos focused less on combat and more on other things?
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty I also believe you have a different definition of rp, particularly when it comes to combat. Are you one of those who wish mmos focused less on combat and more on other things?
I can guarantee that my definition of Role Playing differs from your own
Yes, I am "one of those" players who desire more from an MMO than just killing things, though that can be fun at times.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by SomeHuman I totally agree. I like some "twitch" games, but I usually turn to a FPS for that. I prefer a more strategic combat in an MMORPG. I'd be all for a turn-based combat system in some of the up-and-coming titles. I have more fun playing a round of Hearthstone than I do running around ESO smacking stuff. But I enjoy the world exploration and other elements of your typical mmorpg like ESO.
100% this. Forget this twitch and GCD-laden MMORPG fare. What I'd really like to see is something like Wizard101's combat taken to the next level.
Originally posted by Holophonist But either way, all I'm saying is twitch aiming is not fundamentally different than you having to do anything else in the game. It's no different than walking around even. So that's fine if YOU PERSONALLY want to draw the line at twitch aiming, either because you're bad at it or just don't like it, but let's not pretend that there's some objective reason to draw the line there. It has NOTHING to do with roleplaying. Twitch aiming is not at all in conflict with roleplaying.
This is where we disagree. Roleplayng, for me, is all about my character, not me. When you are mouse aiming, *you* are the one fighting, not your character. Also, when you aim, there is no missing your target, except if they dodge, parry, or block, but *your* aiming always hits where *you* are aiming. 100% accuracy.
Tab targeting uses RNG to figure out if *your character* hits or not. Just because you are facing the right way does not mean 100% accuracy, even when the target is "locked on" your character can miss.
This is a huge difference for me. I think that qualifies as an "objective reason."
The rest of the game, you are "guiding" your character. "Hey, Koldaar, go mine some ore here." "Hey, Florry, use a Fireball spell now." "Hey, Kincaid, play me a song (you're the piano man)."
Am I making sense?
None of this explains why aiming is different than any other action you can perform in the game. Is it because you can miss? Well what if you choose the wrong spell in a tab targeting game? Is that not similar to missing in an fps game? What about exploring? Why can't you tell your avatar to go explore some cave while you watch? Because you want to DO it yourself. Twitch aiming is no different. The only difference is it's more engaging than these other tasks and often faster paced.
We don't need to explain anything to you, any more than you need to explain anything to us. Our tastes in game mechanics are obviously different. The difference is how gamers like you think the rest of us should capitulate or leave, while gamers like us just want a few MMOs to call home with at least one new one coming out every few years. We are not happy that every new and upcoming MMO is jumping on the twitch bandwagon.
If I can dodge attacks because of my lightning reflexes, what do I need armor for? If my ability to hit is based on my eye-hand coordination, why have an 'attack' stat of any kind?
The basic problem with 'twitch' is that it contradicts the notion that everything depends on numerical stats, which has been the core of RPGs since the days of pen and paper.
If that were actually a requirement for RPGs, then no-one, or practically no-one, would be able to play any character that wasn't simply a shadow of themselves. Can you really say that you can accurately portray the actions of someone completely dissimilar to yourself? Someone who is smarter/dumber, faster/slower, wiser/more naïve, etc.
A good GM gives incentives/disincentives to players so that the character stats reflect the way it is being played, but they can't force them to play in a way that the player can't or doesn't want to.
The same should be true of online games as they incorporate more and more of the player's skill into playing the game. The game should make it more difficult for the player of a character with low dexterity to be nimbly dodge every single attack, but not disallow it if the player is still up to the task. And by the same token, the game should make it easier for the player to dodge if the character has a high dexterity.
The stats are merely a guideline, not an impassable wall, that's the way it has always been with RPGs.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Well when I originally posted this, there was a lot of talk about upcoming projects and having more "Action Combat" in a twitch or FPS style. This was also before I got to play WildStar which I thought was going to be much more twitchy than it ends up being, I think it has a pretty good mesh. ESO is also okay.
I just think as they try to expand MMOs to a broader audience via consoles (Which I liked EQOA: Console MMO before Console MMOS were cool) they are moving away from RPG into FPS and Twitch hybrids. I am all for a bigger audience but I don't think they have to gut the rpg out of the game's combat to do it.
I do not hate twitch, I play some heavy twitch games like COD and TF2. I guess I just don't want to lose more traditional lined MMORPGS.
The emphasis on this fast-action combat, or "twitch," is the main reason why I'm skeptical at the notion that this genre wants to appeal to "casuals." For I can think of no more "un-casual" philosophy behind game design than to force people to be reacting all the time to the action.
People need some distance from the mechanics in order to think about what they are doing; they need some distance to engage in higher mental judgment.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
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If I can dodge attacks because of my lightning reflexes, what do I need armor for? If my ability to hit is based on my eye-hand coordination, why have an 'attack' stat of any kind?
The basic problem with 'twitch' is that it contradicts the notion that everything depends on numerical stats, which has been the core of RPGs since the days of pen and paper.
The emphasis on this fast-action combat, or "twitch," is the main reason why I'm skeptical at the notion that this genre wants to appeal to "casuals." For I can think of no more "un-casual" philosophy behind game design than to force people to be reacting all the time to the action.
People need some distance from the mechanics in order to think about what they are doing; they need some distance to engage in higher mental judgment.
Twitch is the most casual interaction type as most people want to be constantly entertained by non-stop action.
Games that are more on the strategic/tactical side are not *as* popular as the kazillion FPS games. The casual market is stuff like COD, Titanfall, Halo - all twitch oriented games.
I'm still pretty good at twitch combat, had the game of my life Saturday night in cod ghosts, went 44 kills and one death in a 75 to 24 routing of the other team. I'm 32 also, I can still hang with the kids in twitch combat. Wish I could say that about running, basketball, and any other sports I used to be better at. Twitch games will be next, once I lose it might as well officially count me as old.
Comments
Pretty much how I feel recently tried FF14arr after playing tera for such a long time I couldn't get myself into the game combat felt so week slow and boring
For a lot of tab target-liking players, this is where the role play comes in. This is where they get test how they built there character with skills and abilities. Maybe even find out where your character needs to improve.
I liken this as a little bit like raising a child. At some point in time, you have to let that go and hope that all those years of teaching sunk in. As a parent, all you can do is sit back, worry, and hope they do OK. Us parents can not take those math quizzes for them or do their science projects for them. We can be near and help guide them, if needed, but can not do the work for them anymore. Many tab target players can see their characters as their children in the virtual world. While we may want to help them when they flounder, we are OK with letting them flounder on their own and guiding them afterwards to improve themselves.
Or, maybe *I* am the only one who sees it this way
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"And I think most action combat players are this way. Standing in one spot, playing cavemen with clubs"
- you've never played Aion I gather?
tab-targeting it is, but you want to venture out into the open pvp world and stand still while you're in combat? Well you can if you want, after all giving free AP to others could be seen as a very generous act.
No, I've never played Aion. I have played EQ (rooted), WoW (lots of rooting), and CoH (some rooting).
That last paragraph sounds more like action (twitch) combat to me, but what do I know
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Tab targeting uses RNG to figure out if *your character* hits or not. Just because you are facing the right way does not mean 100% accuracy, even when the target is "locked on" your character can miss.
This is a huge difference for me. I think that qualifies as an "objective reason."
The rest of the game, you are "guiding" your character.
"Hey, Koldaar, go mine some ore here."
"Hey, Florry, use a Fireball spell now."
"Hey, Kincaid, play me a song (you're the piano man)."
Am I making sense?
None of this explains why aiming is different than any other action you can perform in the game. Is it because you can miss? Well what if you choose the wrong spell in a tab targeting game? Is that not similar to missing in an fps game? What about exploring? Why can't you tell your avatar to go explore some cave while you watch? Because you want to DO it yourself. Twitch aiming is no different. The only difference is it's more engaging than these other tasks and often faster paced.For a lot of tab target-liking players, this is where the role play comes in. This is where they get test how they built there character with skills and abilities. Maybe even find out where your character needs to improve.
I liken this as a little bit like raising a child. At some point in time, you have to let that go and hope that all those years of teaching sunk in. As a parent, all you can do is sit back, worry, and hope they do OK. Us parents can not take those math quizzes for them or do their science projects for them. We can be near and help guide them, if needed, but can not do the work for them anymore. Many tab target players can see their characters as their children in the virtual world. While we may want to help them when they flounder, we are OK with letting them flounder on their own and guiding them afterwards to improve themselves.
Or, maybe *I* am the only one who sees it this way
Well that's fine but you're still performing OTHER actions for them. You're not just letting them do their thing and seeing how well they perform. You're moving around, you're choosing abilities, you're choosing targets, you're using potions, you're using bandages, etc. Why is aiming any different? Obviously it's because people aren't used to it in MMOs.How tough is it, would you guess, to hold down the "W" key and move forward? Pretty much almost anyone can do it, right? And pretty much with equal ability? Sure, there may be some players that may have a handicap doing this, but many would either not play or have a workaround somehow.
How about clicking a mouse button and mining an ore node? How hard is that, do you suppose? Does that take lightning reflexes and super natural hand-eye coordination?
What about clicking on 2 or 3 ingredients to perform crafting? Is that pretty tough? Is this where the men are separated from the boys?
If you still don't get, I'll let someone else try.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If I can dodge attacks because of my lightning reflexes, what do I need armor for? If my ability to hit is based on my eye-hand coordination, why have an 'attack' stat of any kind?
The basic problem with 'twitch' is that it contradicts the notion that everything depends on numerical stats, which has been the core of RPGs since the days of pen and paper.
I'm pretty partial to the combat in games like Bioshock or even Alan Wake. I'm fine with tab-target, cooldown controlled abilities too, but it doesn't seem like anyone is going to make it as smooth as WoW. So if a game is going to use that style of combat, they should just copy WoW as close as they can, because they aren't really going to make it any better.
One thing I am sure of though is that developers should pick a style, and then go with it. Don't try to do half of one with half of the other. It just doesn't work. I suppose it's possible for a developer to come up with something new, but it's been like twenty years. In regards to the combat, just go mostly with what we know already works, whether it's twitch/fps combat or tab-target cooldown controlled combat.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Honestly, it just sounds like you are saying "I'm not very good at it. So therefore i do not like it.".. I"ve also played many twitch games.. and actively play AOW... and GODLIKE reflexes aren't necessary.. its just as timing and prediction oriented as any other game.
PPl like you have said that twitch games are less thought provoking because of big red circles... but a lot of twitch games also feature pvp... and the majority of time its not about reacting to big red circles or reflexes.. it is about outsmarting your opponent or outsmarting the npc... which is no different then what you do in a tab target game.
Ugh, if you're going to be condescending, you should probably also make sure you're right. Those things are nothing but a matter of degree. There are other things that could be considered difficult that you haven't expressed a problem with. The difficulty in tab targeting games usually comes in the form of managing cooldowns, using the appropriate spells at the appropriate time, etc. Are you against ALL difficulty in roleplaying games? Or are you just arbitrarily drawing a line somewhere? By the way, it's fine if you simply prefer a certain type of game, but I'll say it again, don't act like twitch aiming is fundamentally different. It isn't. There's nothing anti-roleplaying about twitch aiming. Nothing.
That's like saying being smart about what abilities you use undermines the core concept that your in-game avatar has an intelligence stat.
Action combat has its place and in some instances, I enjoy it. But ONLY in short spurts.
"Reaction", contrary to popular belief is NOT "thought provoking." It is reaction to what is happening on screen. Is there a big difference between twitch combat and "Quicktime Events (QTE)?" Not really. You gotta click at the right time, right? May I ask where the "thought provocation" is here? If you're "thinking" during twitch combat, you're dead, right? That seems to be *my* trouble with it. I tend to want to think things through and twitch combat just does allow for that.
You just do not have time for "Do I use this power here, or wait for another opening?" You're dead of you do.
Again, I am NOT against twitch combat. It has its place (like FPS or Action Adventure games). RPGs? Not so much, in my opinion.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
reaction time is made up of two components... physical reaction speed.. and mental processes.... you do think when playing twitch combat... you have to decide how to avoid.. what direction to roll.. if you want to avoid it at all.. or if you'd rather use a skill instead.. particularly a stun... it's not just about rolling/dodging. I won't deny that some do not.. I.E. GW2 is light on the mental aspect imo.
Even in your post here it still sounds the same.. I'm not good/ it's tiring so i don't like it. No offense.. it seems that you think and react a little slowly.. as I mentioned above.. AOW.. requires both. In fact in every guild I've played in I've always been one of the best if not the best PVPer... I just don't like AOW's invest a million hours of gameplay and market focus.
Twitch and traditional gameplay mechanics aren't much different inherently other than involving movement.. Other than that, it all depends on the direction the Dev's want to go with the combat.
I also believe you have a different definition of rp, particularly when it comes to combat. Are you one of those who wish mmos focused less on combat and more on other things?
Yes, I am "one of those" players who desire more from an MMO than just killing things, though that can be fun at times.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Me too.
We don't need to explain anything to you, any more than you need to explain anything to us. Our tastes in game mechanics are obviously different. The difference is how gamers like you think the rest of us should capitulate or leave, while gamers like us just want a few MMOs to call home with at least one new one coming out every few years. We are not happy that every new and upcoming MMO is jumping on the twitch bandwagon.
If that were actually a requirement for RPGs, then no-one, or practically no-one, would be able to play any character that wasn't simply a shadow of themselves. Can you really say that you can accurately portray the actions of someone completely dissimilar to yourself? Someone who is smarter/dumber, faster/slower, wiser/more naïve, etc.
A good GM gives incentives/disincentives to players so that the character stats reflect the way it is being played, but they can't force them to play in a way that the player can't or doesn't want to.
The same should be true of online games as they incorporate more and more of the player's skill into playing the game. The game should make it more difficult for the player of a character with low dexterity to be nimbly dodge every single attack, but not disallow it if the player is still up to the task. And by the same token, the game should make it easier for the player to dodge if the character has a high dexterity.
The stats are merely a guideline, not an impassable wall, that's the way it has always been with RPGs.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Well when I originally posted this, there was a lot of talk about upcoming projects and having more "Action Combat" in a twitch or FPS style. This was also before I got to play WildStar which I thought was going to be much more twitchy than it ends up being, I think it has a pretty good mesh. ESO is also okay.
I just think as they try to expand MMOs to a broader audience via consoles (Which I liked EQOA: Console MMO before Console MMOS were cool) they are moving away from RPG into FPS and Twitch hybrids. I am all for a bigger audience but I don't think they have to gut the rpg out of the game's combat to do it.
I do not hate twitch, I play some heavy twitch games like COD and TF2. I guess I just don't want to lose more traditional lined MMORPGS.
Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk
The emphasis on this fast-action combat, or "twitch," is the main reason why I'm skeptical at the notion that this genre wants to appeal to "casuals." For I can think of no more "un-casual" philosophy behind game design than to force people to be reacting all the time to the action.
People need some distance from the mechanics in order to think about what they are doing; they need some distance to engage in higher mental judgment.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Something like.
"<@Brannoc> *Timothy* Will Fallen Earth use a hitbox to calculate damage or will it be rock, paper, scissors based like Planetside?
<@FELee> Fallen Earth uses hit boxes, skills, weapons, and armor to calculate damage. Base damage is determined by weapon and is modified by hit location and Rifle/Pistol/Melee vs. Dodge/Melee Defense and is then modified by armor. So it's toally FPS in hit determination and a mixture of FPS and RPG in damage determination."
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Twitch is the most casual interaction type as most people want to be constantly entertained by non-stop action.
Games that are more on the strategic/tactical side are not *as* popular as the kazillion FPS games. The casual market is stuff like COD, Titanfall, Halo - all twitch oriented games.
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