As is so typical when fans see something they don't like, said about something they do like. The response is to "ad-hom" the person who said it. "Who is he?" A question asked that is suppoed to be rhetorical in implying the reviewer is a "nobody". And in this case implying that Tom's Hardware as a site has no business reviwing software. Even though they've been doing it for years. So, how does ignorance on the part of the reader towards the site and its reviewer's translate into a lack of credentials on the site's part? It doesn't. Also as is typical, when you cannot address the issue, address the person who said it. Only in this case, the person who said it seems to have some established authority and experience in this genre for quite some time now. ESO has issues. Ad-Homs against those who point them out won't fix them.
I just don't understand why the very people who love the game the most aren't the ones up in arms the most. I would think they would want to see their game get even better. I love ES games. I want to play this one or rather, I want there to be an ES MMO worth playing. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case for me.
Burring heads in the sand while ZOS repeats everything that EA did with SWTOR won't fix the issues. All those SWTOR fans who used to paste screen shots of the population in Fleet to show the game still had players didn't stop players from canceling their subscriptions.
This would fall under "Opinions Don't Equal Reality". You are welcome to your opinion, but we still haven't gotten any sort of objective look at the dungeons that actually takes into consideration the entire rest of the game. Not in this thread anyway.
How much time do actual players spent in the copy/pasted dungeons as opposed to the amount of time opinionated forumites think should be spent there?
How much of the player's story occurs in the copy/pasted dungeons, as opposed to the amount of time opinionated forumites think should occur there?
If a very little bit of time is spent in the copy/pasted dungeons, it doesn't matter. If a lot of time is spent in dungeons, but it's not in any of the copy/pasted dungeons, it doesn't matter.
**
The part that should tip people off that this is just people jumping on a point in an argument that they think is valid, but have no idea what they're talking about is that it's been awhile since ESO released, Tom's Hardware is the first review to mention this, and this is the first time that anyone on MMORPG.com has gotten all pissy about it. If this was an actual think, it would have been mentioned before now as an actual issue. As opposed to say, the issue of MMORPG game mechanics directly conflicting with established Elder Scrolls game play. Something that was mentioned and talked about before the game even released.
People have been talking about dungeons since before beta. People often talked about their overly simple design. Instead of the letter "b," they would make a little ascii diagram to show what they look like.
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Besides that, your idea that an objective way to look at how much quality the dungeons should have, is based on the amount of time the developers think the player should want to be there, is ridiculous. You built your entire argument on this strange idea that low quality is ok because the developers never intended for players to experience them often. Your idea lacks as much objectivity as people's opinions that they don't like their current implementation. It's completely ok for people to express their opinion about the lack of variety. You are never going to be able to invent an objective way of judging dungeons because there isn't one.
Every feature in a game is developed with the idea of how much time players are going to spend using or consuming that feature. If players aren't going to spend much time looking at cups that are sitting on tables, it doesn't make sense for a developer to spend an inordinate amount of time working on those cups. If players aren't expected to spend more than 5% of their time in dungeons, it doesn't make sense for a developer to spend more than 5% of their time working on the dungeons.
If the dungeons were actually important, there would have been topics cropping up on MMORPG.com before now. There haven't. It's not that important. It somehow skipped the notice of everyone else on the planet too, until just now.
An objective look would be seeing how dungeons affect the rest of the game, how important they are to the rest of the game. Nobody is answering the question about how much time is spent in the copy/paste dungeons, and nobody is answering whether or not those copy/paste dungeons contain required or even important content. Like you, they are only saying "Dungeons are important, just because."
Nobody is saying the dungeon design has depth. Not that I can see anyway. Nobody has said they are an intricate adventure either. They aren't supposed to be. Nobody expects an appetizer to weigh four pounds and take four hours to eat. Appetizers are supposed to be fast and tasty. ESO's dungeons are obviously fast. Maybe they're tasty. I don't know. I do know that nobody who is complaining about them has bothered to answer what purpose they are supposed to serve in ESO. Are they appetizers or the main course?
First, there have been topics about them in the past. And just so you know, this isn't a topic about just the dungeons, it is a topic about a review that mentions the dungeons. Many, many articles have mentioned how short and lame the overworld dungeons are. Many, many posts. Many threads. It only, apparently, skipped your notice. The only difference here is that someone made an infographic and made a silly comment about the letter "b" and that really hit home with a lot of people.
Second, I never said dungeons are important. I said that the premise for your argument is ridiculous. And it continues to be. Obviously people DID expect something better than what they offered, otherwise, people wouldn't be bitching about them all the time. Nobody is saying that the dungeons have depth - exactly right. They are saying the dungeons don't have depth and are a very weak attempt.
There is nothing wrong with someone holding that opinion. Developer intention certainly doesn't change how people feel about their attempt at open world dungeons. Your analogy is poor because it actually flies in the face of your argument about objectivity. If an appetizer/main course isn't tasty, it isn't tasty. Whether or not something is tasty is completely based on opinion. Just like whether or not these are acceptable open world dungeons is completely based on opinion.
As to their purpose? They have bosses/loot and quests lead to some of them. What is the purpose of any dungeon in any game?
I've been reviewing the "Active" and "Current" topics for awhile now. None of them are about the dungeons in ESO. As you said, not even this one. Certainly people may have mentioned it, just like they've mentioned it about other Elder Scrolls games, but compared to nearly everything else the game offers, it's just not that important a thing.
How much time are people spending in the copy/paste dungeons?
How much time did the developer expect people to spend in the copy/paste dungeons?
How much of the game's content directs people to the copy/paste dungeons?
If ZOS expected people to pop through the dungeons quickly, spending very little time there, then the dungeons serve the purpose for which they were intended.
Here's a link to one of the "Dungeons" forums on the Elder Scrolls Online website.
People don't seem to be making a big deal about the copy/paste dungeons. If it was that important, don't you think the topics would reference it on the first page of the "Dungeons" forums? They don't.
For something that people are supposedly complaining about all the time, it's awfully hard to find recorded evidence for. Not compared to everything else people want to complain about anyway. It's just not a big deal. Tempest in a teacup, mountains out of molehills, etc.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I've been reviewing the "Active" and "Current" topics for awhile now. None of them are about the dungeons in ESO. As you said, not even this one. Certainly people may have mentioned it, just like they've mentioned it about other Elder Scrolls games, but compared to nearly everything else the game offers, it's just not that important a thing.
How much time are people spending in the copy/paste dungeons?
How much time did the developer expect people to spend in the copy/paste dungeons?
How much of the game's content directs people to the copy/paste dungeons?
If ZOS expected people to pop through the dungeons quickly, spending very little time there, then the dungeons serve the purpose for which they were intended.
Here's a link to one of the "Dungeons" forums on the Elder Scrolls Online website.
People don't seem to be making a big deal about the copy/paste dungeons. If it was that important, don't you think the topics would reference it on the first page of the "Dungeons" forums? They don't.
For something that people are supposedly complaining about all the time, it's awfully hard to find recorded evidence for. Not compared to everything else people want to complain about anyway. It's just not a big deal. Tempest in a teacup, mountains out of molehills, etc.
Here are 5 in the last 3 weeks of this site - the site that you were saying didn't have any threads on the topic:
Their official forums tend to delete a lot of posts. Particularly negative ones. Why do you think the infographic from Tom's Hardware is nowhere to be found?
You keep holding onto this idea that if ZOS intended for them to be short/copied/poor then they have accomplished what they had intended and therefor no one should be able to criticize them for what they accomplished. That's just a load of bull. They are not immune to criticism because they accomplished something they intended. It's a huge fallacy and the premise of your argument.
Yes, it's the same "Joe Pishgar", aka GreyPawn, former SWG CM that wrote that review. Hi guys! It's been a while. :P
Firstly:
"That's because he was paid by the competition for the negative review silly!"
Oh man, that would be awesome. Do companies pay for negative reviews of their competitors? I ask because the only reviews I've seen lately of triple-A big budget titles seem to be glowing ones no matter what, and come on the tail end of a big, site-wide rebrand style advertising buy.
I highly doubt companies pay for negative reviews. There are a handful of people here on these forums, not many, but a small handful that believe that goes on. It's even more humorous when you see it being spouted by someone who has widely been suspected of being a shill for other games.
Hmm, well if there are shills then I guess it would make sense there are those that are like shills but in reverse? I don't know what you would call those though.
If these reviews were completely inaccurate you might have a case for people paying for them. Unfortunatly they are not.....
lol @ comparing TESO's 30 "dungeons" to WoW's 14. It would take 5 TESO dungeons to make one vanilla WoW dungeon. Granted nowadays WoW dungeons are a joke and I'm equally disappointed in those as TESO's. But the level of fanboi it takes to claim every review is fixed just because it's negative is mind blowing. FFS the game would have 1/10th the players if it simply had a different name.
That was the worst review and zero facts about this game I have ever took a loot at. This was nothing like what I experienced in this game, most just the other way around, talking about hating on a game......wow....
Yes, it's the same "Joe Pishgar", aka GreyPawn, former SWG CM that wrote that review. Hi guys! It's been a while. :P
(Note to moderator, could you adjust my title to something more appropriate, or remove the previous designation?)
Had to chime in on a few items here:
Firstly:
"That's because he was paid by the competition for the negative review silly!"
Oh man, that would be awesome. Do companies pay for negative reviews of their competitors? I ask because the only reviews I've seen lately of triple-A big budget titles seem to be glowing ones no matter what, and come on the tail end of a big, site-wide rebrand style advertising buy.
As a side note, I was not paid for this review. My capacity with Tom's Hardware is as Community Manager, not reviewer or editorial. The review was something I did in my spare time over the weekend, not reimbursed, not paid for. I wrote it as a labor of love because I kept seeing messages from friends, family, former guildmates and fellow gamers saying they were going to buy The Elder Scrolls Online. The review was my selfish way of warning the people I give a damn about not to fritter away $60 in hopes of experiencing something fun that is ultimately disappointing. If you want positive, paid-for, shiny reviews - there are plenty of them out there.
"Delves not dungeons!"
Get a grip, friend. A rose by any other name is still a rose. As mentioned in other comments here, even the game itself refers to them as dungeons in passing several times. Because they are frikken dungeons. Yes, there are the bigger "public group" dungeons which have a few more quests and a handful of interesting things to do, but even these are short bursts of mild entertainment that end too soon and don't constitute much of a challenge. Excusing this level of rote copy/pasting as a gamer means you are apt to get more of it in the future.
-JP
I realize you think you're helping those people by writing a scathing review of a game where people are actually enjoying themselves. We should all really write reviews of games we didn't like from the get go so that no one bothers playing them. That worked for those of us who still think WoW was a sheeple pleasing pile of trash. It's still the largest MMORPG title in existence, much to my chagrin. Maybe you feel the same way about ESO. I know this much for sure - the above statement reeks of your inflated ego. The last quality a Community Manager of any type should have.
I enjoyed the beta testing. I was looking very much forward to ESO, and I wanted more than anything to like the game. As I mention in the review, that didn't happen. In fact, it was a slow realization that the game was indeed awful. But I really, really had very high hopes for it.
Originally posted by Hellidol That was the worst review and zero facts about this game I have ever took a loot at. This was nothing like what I experienced in this game, most just the other way around, talking about hating on a game......wow....
I've tried to 'loot' a review many times but most are worthless because they are bind on pick up.
Originally posted by Hellidol That was the worst review and zero facts about this game I have ever took a loot at. This was nothing like what I experienced in this game, most just the other way around, talking about hating on a game......wow....
So... you would argue that ESO's Open World Dungeons are complex, challenging, has depth and a rewarding experience for the player base?
Wait..... essentially you're going to slam the review without putting out any counter points, facts or experiences of your own?
At least the reviewer provided his evidence whether you agree with him or not.
Originally posted by GreyPawn I enjoyed the beta testing. I was looking very much forward to ESO, and I wanted more than anything to like the game. As I mention in the review, that didn't happen. In fact, it was a slow realization that the game was indeed awful. But I really, really had very high hopes for it.
Awful according to your perspective mate. I love the game, my wife loves the game, my friends all love the game. Does it have bugs? Well, apparently it does, because it comes up a lot. I've encountered two since Beta last year up until now. Mostly because i've taken my time advancing in the game due to a heavy IT schedule. I think they had an impossible task at marrying two ideas into an amalgamation of different ideas. I would never want that job.
As far as the dungeons... wow. Someone had the free time to go to the trouble to compare all the maps? You guys even notice this stuff? Skyrim and Oblivion always shared dungeon assets. Always! I just accepted it as the way things are for Elder Scrolls games. Do you know what effort, manpower, and time it takes to design a dungeon from scratch? Any concept? It blows me away at the people complaining about how they want "grind" spots back. Why? What for? What did it accomplish? You were truly happy to stay in one place and kill the same thing all day long? It blows my mind. As dumbfounded as you are as to why anyone would like this game... I can assure you we are as dumbfounded as to why you don't.
I suppose I approached ESO like I do every TES title. There were some things I disliked superficially... I fixed them with things like UI mods, SweetFX, ect. Colors are way more vibrant, my patience has paid off with very few bugs entering into my experience, and I play with like minded people who enjoy the experience the game gives. Say what you like about ESO, but it remains the most popular hit on MMORPG.com every day, and going on weeks now. There are people out there who are not forum trolls who LOVE - THIS - GAME. Just accept it and roll on people. Go back to your WoW clones like Wildstar, keep drooling over everything thats ever been done and keep claiming its new and different. It's not. Its Guild Wars 2 in space.
You love Guild Wars 2 in space you say? Cool. That's fine! You do your thing, and leave me to enjoy mine. I won't be writing reviews to warn people away from Wildstar. I'll just ignore it.
there is nothing better out there,dark souls 2 also good and you lost all credibility when you said wildstar is going to be good and ffxiv is a good game so your review is one sided fanboy and nonsense.
I am bored with current games but there is hope with EQN and warhammer that they said is a living world.
wildstar is the only new AAA mmo beta that I have ever played that is empty,i played for 10min 2 weeks ago and its empty.
I will be surprised if it does not go free in 6 months.
Originally posted by Hellidol That was the worst review and zero facts about this game I have ever took a loot at. This was nothing like what I experienced in this game, most just the other way around, talking about hating on a game......wow....
So... you would argue that ESO's Open World Dungeons are complex, challenging, has depth and a rewarding experience for the player base?
Wait..... essentially you're going to slam the review without putting out any counter points, facts or experiences of your own?
At least the reviewer provided his evidence whether you agree with him or not.
It was a opinion about the game, not fact, what you and I see as what is isnt what another might see. I feel the game gave plenty and created enough different styles of quest that kept me wanting to try something new. This reviewer just took what was nothing and really made a big deal out of it. This is the main reason I almost all together stop reading reviews until after I tried the product because this game is a ton of fun and fills what ever void I have when it comes to wanting a game.
Yes, it's the same "Joe Pishgar", aka GreyPawn, former SWG CM that wrote that review. Hi guys! It's been a while. :P
(Note to moderator, could you adjust my title to something more appropriate, or remove the previous designation?)
Had to chime in on a few items here:
Firstly:
"That's because he was paid by the competition for the negative review silly!"
Oh man, that would be awesome. Do companies pay for negative reviews of their competitors? I ask because the only reviews I've seen lately of triple-A big budget titles seem to be glowing ones no matter what, and come on the tail end of a big, site-wide rebrand style advertising buy.
As a side note, I was not paid for this review. My capacity with Tom's Hardware is as Community Manager, not reviewer or editorial. The review was something I did in my spare time over the weekend, not reimbursed, not paid for. I wrote it as a labor of love because I kept seeing messages from friends, family, former guildmates and fellow gamers saying they were going to buy The Elder Scrolls Online. The review was my selfish way of warning the people I give a damn about not to fritter away $60 in hopes of experiencing something fun that is ultimately disappointing. If you want positive, paid-for, shiny reviews - there are plenty of them out there.
"Delves not dungeons!"
Get a grip, friend. A rose by any other name is still a rose. As mentioned in other comments here, even the game itself refers to them as dungeons in passing several times. Because they are frikken dungeons. Yes, there are the bigger "public group" dungeons which have a few more quests and a handful of interesting things to do, but even these are short bursts of mild entertainment that end too soon and don't constitute much of a challenge. Excusing this level of rote copy/pasting as a gamer means you are apt to get more of it in the future.
-JP
I'd argue that the group dungeons count in any honest numerology of things to do, and that omitting them is a deliberate distortion.
It's certainly informative to know that you set out to write a hostile review to warn people away from something, as opposed to setting out to write an objective assessment of strengths and weaknesses. I'm going to bookmark this in case I run across anything else that you write. Otherwise I might mistake you for an honest reviewer.
Originally posted by summitus Tom's Hardware who is he ? , does he sell nuts and bolts and paint and stuff ? He might as well , I for one am sick of these idiots jumping on the hate bandwagon for more web traffic. ESO isn't great by any means but its nowhere near as bad as these Hardware Stores would have you believe. sigh.
Actually mate Tom's hardware is one of the most respected sites on the net for hardware reviews and testing. Mostly hardware but they are getting the software hat on as well now. Think of them as a kind of computer stuff 'Which'.
Well maybe , but not for me. thanks for the info though
Well these fly-by-night folk have been going for nearly 20 years and the amount of feedback / fixes that they have fed back to Intel, AMD, NVidia, Microsoft, NEC, Gigabyte etc. etc. means that they have almost certainly improved your gaming experience. And why manufacturers often give them early samples as well.
Do you two group together when playing? How have you found the experience? When she is on one objective slightly different than the one you are on, and you can't see her in the instance, is that fun? Have you ever tried clicking the "Share" option under a quest, but realized that it was essentially pointless, because you and her would be doing the same things independently, no matter what? Or do you and her only group up in "group dungeons"?
I'd argue that the group dungeons count in any honest numerology of things to do, and that omitting them is a deliberate distortion.
Let's include the 16 group dungeons in the count. That brings the grand total of copy/pasted to 60.8% total dungeons as replicated, down from 70%ish. Does this help?
It's certainly informative to know that you set out to write a hostile review to warn people away from something, as opposed to setting out to write an objective assessment of strengths and weaknesses.
Bob arrives at Eddie's Shake Outpost, he's super hungry and he's heard nothing but rave reviews about their burgers and shakes. Bob has told all of his friends he can't wait to try Eddie's - he's going to order the double-burger with cheese, fries and the strawberry milkshake. He skips breakfast that morning because he knows (from reviews in the newspaper) that the food is going to be fantastic. He calls ahead, even makes a reservation and astoundingly, pays in advance over the phone, confident enough in the delicious food he's about to receive. Bob stands in line at Eddie's Shake Outpost for four hours before being served - the food looks impressive! He takes the first bite, and he's confused. "This... was supposed to be great. This burger is bland. The meat is cold. Maybe they got it wrong? This is so much worse than World of Burgercraft or EverCheese Pizza. Ugh." Disgusted and deeply disappointed, he tries the fries. Hopefully they'll be better and he won't feel embarrassed by his choice. He tries them - they are beautiful, but frozen solid. He nearly chips a tooth. "These could be good, probably. There's a lot of potential here." Bob says, returning the ice-block fries to their attractive container. He eyes the milkshake warily and takes a sip. The strawberries taste like a mix of dirty pennies and cheap perfume, metallic. It has the texture of and the look of a milkshake though.
"That's it. This place is disgusting. I'm telling everyone." Bob rushes home to post a message on his Facebook page to his friends, family and fellow foodies to steer clear of Eddie's Shake Outpost unless you want a disappointing experience and a stomach ache.
Now then, did Bob set out to write an objective assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of Eddie's Shake Outpost? No, he didn't. He started off wanting to love the place, and ended up doing what he did to save others the pain of going through the same feeling of embarrassment at having been duped, the disappointment, and a loss of their lunch money for undone, bland crap with a lot of potential leaving you ultimately unfulfilled.
When I'm looking into a single player game I'll go on somewhere like gamefaqs and check the reviews.
Usually you see like a list and the scores are like 8 9 8 8 8 7 8 then maybe a 4. Out of habit I'll check the 4 and its usually someone with a completely biased opinion ranting about the game for some specific reason (maybe they loved the prequel as a random example)
Then I'll check the other reviews and they will point out the good and the bad things. They never say the game is perfect but it gives a better idea whether I'd like the game or not, like an actual review.
So yeah a opinion piece of why I hate ESO would still get me to read it but its less likely for me to take it seriously if theres a bunch of other reviews saying it is above average, has potential etc. I played the game and none of the positive experiences I had were not even mentioned - hence I dont consider this fairly labeled as a review.
What you wrote was a diatribe, pure and simple. Your *deliberate* distortion of the dungeon issue is a good example of that . You could have honestly noted the role that they play in the game and noted that there was repetition. Instead, you made a huge deal out of a sideshow - without bothering to note the large number of other options in the game. People who read your review will be misled into believing that a large fraction of their time is spent in "recycled" caves when it is not.
This is propaganda - coming from someone who hates something so much that they have to cast everything that it does in the worst possible light. You could have had a germ of a reasonable point, but your utter lack of perspective caused you to shade over into active distortion. And one thing that an honest review should never do is to mislead.
What you wrote was a diatribe, pure and simple. Your *deliberate* distortion of the dungeon issue is a good example of that . You could have honestly noted the role that they play in the game and noted that there was repetition. Instead, you made a huge deal out of a sideshow - without bothering to note the large number of other options in the game. People who read your review will be misled into believing that a large fraction of their time is spent in "recycled" caves when it is not.
This is propaganda - coming from someone who hates something so much that they have to cast everything that it does in the worst possible light. You could have had a germ of a reasonable point, but your utter lack of perspective caused you to shade over into active distortion. And one thing that an honest review should never do is to mislead.
I think the review is spot on and the end result of all of your meticulously crafted words? The common ad hominem, attacking the author, how quaint. Thanks for nothing.
If someone tells me "70% of the dungeons are copied" and they omit many of the actual dungeons in their numerology it isn't a matter of opinion whether they're correct. If they provide the impression that a side event is a core one it matters. This is the sort of thing where it helps, quite a bit, to have enough perspective to provide at least the impression of fairness. If he'd have placed these in their actual context he'd have had an actual point. But he was so invested in trashing the game that he had to cherry-pick his numbers to place it in the worst light. I think that this sort of thing matters when I'm assessing a review.
Firstly, it isn't a distortion. The exclusion of 16 dungeons from more than 100 was not intended as a mathematical trick. Even including these, the preponderance of experiences you will have in ESO is in a place which is copy/pasted. Shall I run the same examination on the number of building interiors in towns for you? Or are you able to get my point - that the lion's share of the game is overwhelming copy pasta.
(As an aside, this would be much tougher, as interiors of buildings in towns are not present in map form, but any visit to ANY town will bear me out on the repetitiveness)
There are other options, the overland being one, which I reviewed. There is also Cyrodiil, and I'm pretty sure I covered the point that all of the Keeps look like every Keep, except for the homebase ones. Shall we talk about those being copy/pasted?
I notice you skipped over the grouping discussion, the Dark Anchors, dialogue and voiceover problems, spammers, bots and goldfarmers.
With such a review type, using the wording and picking only the most bad you can turn almost every top rated game on mmorpg into a garbage game.
I started playing for example a very well known top rated mmo at release but found it a disappointment, some weeks before the release of ESO i did give the game another chance. After reaching lvl 30 I was so bored from the questing, on every map there were copy & paste quests and there were other things which did bother me.
I did actually quit the game but I would never write a review just picking out only the issues the game has, thats not a review. Some kind of neutrality in journalism is not always possible and reviews are often also personally, but there are just some standards.
If you add more negative points of this game, using a similar wording, give more weight to your personal opion and without to gauge the positive and negative aspects of a game you would have the same type of review and result.
This is just one example, but you could pick more from the top rated games and just review them to death.
Every author can write his review like he want and Iam not saying he doesnt have a point when he actually points out current issues in ESO, but consumer want to hear about both sides of a medal and that is necessary doesnt matter how is the outcome of the rating itself.
Firstly, it isn't a distortion. The exclusion of 16 dungeons from more than 100 was not intended as a mathematical trick. Even including these, the preponderance of experiences you will have in ESO is in a place which is copy/pasted. Shall I run the same examination on the number of building interiors in towns for you? Or are you able to get my point - that the lion's share of the game is overwhelming copy pasta.
(As an aside, this would be much tougher, as interiors of buildings in towns are not present in map form, but any visit to ANY town will bear me out on the repetitiveness)
There are other options, the overland being one, which I reviewed. There is also Cyrodiil, and I'm pretty sure I covered the point that all of the Keeps look like every Keep, except for the homebase ones. Shall we talk about those being copy/pasted?
I notice you skipped over the grouping discussion, the Dark Anchors, dialogue and voiceover problems, spammers, bots and goldfarmers.
You're still doing it. You ignored a third of the unique dungeon layouts even before you start counting all of the various other spaces - like the unique ones that you enter as part of all three of the faction lines, the fighters guild, mage guild, and main quest line. You're not controlling for time spent in these places - e.g. a delve designed to take a few minutes counts the same as a group dungeon that is far longer. And you're ignoring the overland areas (again, huge.) It's a fair point that large games copy assets - it's not a fair point to skew the numbers in the way that you did.
I'm still in a state of disbelief that you decided that you hated something so much that you'd post a review, for free, to warn people against it. Most people have the idea that reviews are commissioned by people who are charged with providing an objective review of a product. Apparently, if you work at Toms' and you really hate something you can volunteer to write a "review" trashing it. If you can't see the pretty obvious problems that this causes, what can I say? If you have an angle like that it's pretty important to put it up front in the piece so that people know where you're coming from.
What you wrote was a diatribe, pure and simple. Your *deliberate* distortion of the dungeon issue is a good example of that . You could have honestly noted the role that they play in the game and noted that there was repetition. Instead, you made a huge deal out of a sideshow - without bothering to note the large number of other options in the game. People who read your review will be misled into believing that a large fraction of their time is spent in "recycled" caves when it is not.
This is propaganda - coming from someone who hates something so much that they have to cast everything that it does in the worst possible light. You could have had a germ of a reasonable point, but your utter lack of perspective caused you to shade over into active distortion. And one thing that an honest review should never do is to mislead.
Care to share your examples of what he said that was a "deliberate distortion" and point out the reality of how the dungeons are nothing like what he said? You accuse the author and bring no evidence to support your accusation as if it's some kind of res ipsa loquitor. You accuse the author of distortion, but you then confirm what he said,calling dungeons (in your own words) a side show. You also didn't deny they were recycled But said there are other options. And then, as if that wasnt enough, you said......"This propaganda - coming from someone......." Text book Ad-hom. So far the reviewer has addressed points brought up with real counters and real examples to establish his claim, but I see nothing to the contrary other than empty accusations and personal attacks.
Comments
As is so typical when fans see something they don't like, said about something they do like. The response is to "ad-hom" the person who said it. "Who is he?" A question asked that is suppoed to be rhetorical in implying the reviewer is a "nobody". And in this case implying that Tom's Hardware as a site has no business reviwing software. Even though they've been doing it for years. So, how does ignorance on the part of the reader towards the site and its reviewer's translate into a lack of credentials on the site's part? It doesn't. Also as is typical, when you cannot address the issue, address the person who said it. Only in this case, the person who said it seems to have some established authority and experience in this genre for quite some time now. ESO has issues. Ad-Homs against those who point them out won't fix them.
I just don't understand why the very people who love the game the most aren't the ones up in arms the most. I would think they would want to see their game get even better. I love ES games. I want to play this one or rather, I want there to be an ES MMO worth playing. Sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case for me.
Burring heads in the sand while ZOS repeats everything that EA did with SWTOR won't fix the issues. All those SWTOR fans who used to paste screen shots of the population in Fleet to show the game still had players didn't stop players from canceling their subscriptions.
I've been reviewing the "Active" and "Current" topics for awhile now. None of them are about the dungeons in ESO. As you said, not even this one. Certainly people may have mentioned it, just like they've mentioned it about other Elder Scrolls games, but compared to nearly everything else the game offers, it's just not that important a thing.
Here's a link to one of the "Dungeons" forums on the Elder Scrolls Online website.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/categories/EN-dungeons
People don't seem to be making a big deal about the copy/paste dungeons. If it was that important, don't you think the topics would reference it on the first page of the "Dungeons" forums? They don't.
For something that people are supposedly complaining about all the time, it's awfully hard to find recorded evidence for. Not compared to everything else people want to complain about anyway. It's just not a big deal. Tempest in a teacup, mountains out of molehills, etc.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Here are 5 in the last 3 weeks of this site - the site that you were saying didn't have any threads on the topic:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/412029/How-do-you-feel-about-this-public-everything.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/410222/Public-Dungeons-Are-The-Same.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/410922/Overcrowded-dungeons.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/410928/All-dungeons-should-be-instanced.html
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/410541/Copy-paste-architecture.html
Their official forums tend to delete a lot of posts. Particularly negative ones. Why do you think the infographic from Tom's Hardware is nowhere to be found?
You keep holding onto this idea that if ZOS intended for them to be short/copied/poor then they have accomplished what they had intended and therefor no one should be able to criticize them for what they accomplished. That's just a load of bull. They are not immune to criticism because they accomplished something they intended. It's a huge fallacy and the premise of your argument.
I highly doubt companies pay for negative reviews. There are a handful of people here on these forums, not many, but a small handful that believe that goes on. It's even more humorous when you see it being spouted by someone who has widely been suspected of being a shill for other games.
Hmm, well if there are shills then I guess it would make sense there are those that are like shills but in reverse? I don't know what you would call those though.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
If these reviews were completely inaccurate you might have a case for people paying for them. Unfortunatly they are not.....
lol @ comparing TESO's 30 "dungeons" to WoW's 14. It would take 5 TESO dungeons to make one vanilla WoW dungeon. Granted nowadays WoW dungeons are a joke and I'm equally disappointed in those as TESO's. But the level of fanboi it takes to claim every review is fixed just because it's negative is mind blowing. FFS the game would have 1/10th the players if it simply had a different name.
I realize you think you're helping those people by writing a scathing review of a game where people are actually enjoying themselves. We should all really write reviews of games we didn't like from the get go so that no one bothers playing them. That worked for those of us who still think WoW was a sheeple pleasing pile of trash. It's still the largest MMORPG title in existence, much to my chagrin. Maybe you feel the same way about ESO. I know this much for sure - the above statement reeks of your inflated ego. The last quality a Community Manager of any type should have.
I've tried to 'loot' a review many times but most are worthless because they are bind on pick up.
As for the 'review' it's spot on.
So... you would argue that ESO's Open World Dungeons are complex, challenging, has depth and a rewarding experience for the player base?
Wait..... essentially you're going to slam the review without putting out any counter points, facts or experiences of your own?
At least the reviewer provided his evidence whether you agree with him or not.
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Awful according to your perspective mate. I love the game, my wife loves the game, my friends all love the game. Does it have bugs? Well, apparently it does, because it comes up a lot. I've encountered two since Beta last year up until now. Mostly because i've taken my time advancing in the game due to a heavy IT schedule. I think they had an impossible task at marrying two ideas into an amalgamation of different ideas. I would never want that job.
As far as the dungeons... wow. Someone had the free time to go to the trouble to compare all the maps? You guys even notice this stuff? Skyrim and Oblivion always shared dungeon assets. Always! I just accepted it as the way things are for Elder Scrolls games. Do you know what effort, manpower, and time it takes to design a dungeon from scratch? Any concept? It blows me away at the people complaining about how they want "grind" spots back. Why? What for? What did it accomplish? You were truly happy to stay in one place and kill the same thing all day long? It blows my mind. As dumbfounded as you are as to why anyone would like this game... I can assure you we are as dumbfounded as to why you don't.
I suppose I approached ESO like I do every TES title. There were some things I disliked superficially... I fixed them with things like UI mods, SweetFX, ect. Colors are way more vibrant, my patience has paid off with very few bugs entering into my experience, and I play with like minded people who enjoy the experience the game gives. Say what you like about ESO, but it remains the most popular hit on MMORPG.com every day, and going on weeks now. There are people out there who are not forum trolls who LOVE - THIS - GAME. Just accept it and roll on people. Go back to your WoW clones like Wildstar, keep drooling over everything thats ever been done and keep claiming its new and different. It's not. Its Guild Wars 2 in space.
You love Guild Wars 2 in space you say? Cool. That's fine! You do your thing, and leave me to enjoy mine. I won't be writing reviews to warn people away from Wildstar. I'll just ignore it.
there is nothing better out there,dark souls 2 also good and you lost all credibility when you said wildstar is going to be good and ffxiv is a good game so your review is one sided fanboy and nonsense.
I am bored with current games but there is hope with EQN and warhammer that they said is a living world.
wildstar is the only new AAA mmo beta that I have ever played that is empty,i played for 10min 2 weeks ago and its empty.
I will be surprised if it does not go free in 6 months.
It was a opinion about the game, not fact, what you and I see as what is isnt what another might see. I feel the game gave plenty and created enough different styles of quest that kept me wanting to try something new. This reviewer just took what was nothing and really made a big deal out of it. This is the main reason I almost all together stop reading reviews until after I tried the product because this game is a ton of fun and fills what ever void I have when it comes to wanting a game.
I'd argue that the group dungeons count in any honest numerology of things to do, and that omitting them is a deliberate distortion.
It's certainly informative to know that you set out to write a hostile review to warn people away from something, as opposed to setting out to write an objective assessment of strengths and weaknesses. I'm going to bookmark this in case I run across anything else that you write. Otherwise I might mistake you for an honest reviewer.
Well these fly-by-night folk have been going for nearly 20 years and the amount of feedback / fixes that they have fed back to Intel, AMD, NVidia, Microsoft, NEC, Gigabyte etc. etc. means that they have almost certainly improved your gaming experience. And why manufacturers often give them early samples as well.
I love the game, my wife loves the game
Do you two group together when playing? How have you found the experience? When she is on one objective slightly different than the one you are on, and you can't see her in the instance, is that fun? Have you ever tried clicking the "Share" option under a quest, but realized that it was essentially pointless, because you and her would be doing the same things independently, no matter what? Or do you and her only group up in "group dungeons"?
I'd argue that the group dungeons count in any honest numerology of things to do, and that omitting them is a deliberate distortion.
Let's include the 16 group dungeons in the count. That brings the grand total of copy/pasted to 60.8% total dungeons as replicated, down from 70%ish. Does this help?
It's certainly informative to know that you set out to write a hostile review to warn people away from something, as opposed to setting out to write an objective assessment of strengths and weaknesses.
Bob arrives at Eddie's Shake Outpost, he's super hungry and he's heard nothing but rave reviews about their burgers and shakes. Bob has told all of his friends he can't wait to try Eddie's - he's going to order the double-burger with cheese, fries and the strawberry milkshake. He skips breakfast that morning because he knows (from reviews in the newspaper) that the food is going to be fantastic. He calls ahead, even makes a reservation and astoundingly, pays in advance over the phone, confident enough in the delicious food he's about to receive. Bob stands in line at Eddie's Shake Outpost for four hours before being served - the food looks impressive! He takes the first bite, and he's confused. "This... was supposed to be great. This burger is bland. The meat is cold. Maybe they got it wrong? This is so much worse than World of Burgercraft or EverCheese Pizza. Ugh." Disgusted and deeply disappointed, he tries the fries. Hopefully they'll be better and he won't feel embarrassed by his choice. He tries them - they are beautiful, but frozen solid. He nearly chips a tooth. "These could be good, probably. There's a lot of potential here." Bob says, returning the ice-block fries to their attractive container. He eyes the milkshake warily and takes a sip. The strawberries taste like a mix of dirty pennies and cheap perfume, metallic. It has the texture of and the look of a milkshake though.
"That's it. This place is disgusting. I'm telling everyone." Bob rushes home to post a message on his Facebook page to his friends, family and fellow foodies to steer clear of Eddie's Shake Outpost unless you want a disappointing experience and a stomach ache.
Now then, did Bob set out to write an objective assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of Eddie's Shake Outpost? No, he didn't. He started off wanting to love the place, and ended up doing what he did to save others the pain of going through the same feeling of embarrassment at having been duped, the disappointment, and a loss of their lunch money for undone, bland crap with a lot of potential leaving you ultimately unfulfilled.
When I'm looking into a single player game I'll go on somewhere like gamefaqs and check the reviews.
Usually you see like a list and the scores are like 8 9 8 8 8 7 8 then maybe a 4. Out of habit I'll check the 4 and its usually someone with a completely biased opinion ranting about the game for some specific reason (maybe they loved the prequel as a random example)
Then I'll check the other reviews and they will point out the good and the bad things. They never say the game is perfect but it gives a better idea whether I'd like the game or not, like an actual review.
So yeah a opinion piece of why I hate ESO would still get me to read it but its less likely for me to take it seriously if theres a bunch of other reviews saying it is above average, has potential etc. I played the game and none of the positive experiences I had were not even mentioned - hence I dont consider this fairly labeled as a review.
What you wrote was a diatribe, pure and simple. Your *deliberate* distortion of the dungeon issue is a good example of that . You could have honestly noted the role that they play in the game and noted that there was repetition. Instead, you made a huge deal out of a sideshow - without bothering to note the large number of other options in the game. People who read your review will be misled into believing that a large fraction of their time is spent in "recycled" caves when it is not.
This is propaganda - coming from someone who hates something so much that they have to cast everything that it does in the worst possible light. You could have had a germ of a reasonable point, but your utter lack of perspective caused you to shade over into active distortion. And one thing that an honest review should never do is to mislead.
I think the review is spot on and the end result of all of your meticulously crafted words? The common ad hominem, attacking the author, how quaint. Thanks for nothing.
Firstly, it isn't a distortion. The exclusion of 16 dungeons from more than 100 was not intended as a mathematical trick. Even including these, the preponderance of experiences you will have in ESO is in a place which is copy/pasted. Shall I run the same examination on the number of building interiors in towns for you? Or are you able to get my point - that the lion's share of the game is overwhelming copy pasta.
(As an aside, this would be much tougher, as interiors of buildings in towns are not present in map form, but any visit to ANY town will bear me out on the repetitiveness)
There are other options, the overland being one, which I reviewed. There is also Cyrodiil, and I'm pretty sure I covered the point that all of the Keeps look like every Keep, except for the homebase ones. Shall we talk about those being copy/pasted?
I notice you skipped over the grouping discussion, the Dark Anchors, dialogue and voiceover problems, spammers, bots and goldfarmers.
With such a review type, using the wording and picking only the most bad you can turn almost every top rated game on mmorpg into a garbage game.
I started playing for example a very well known top rated mmo at release but found it a disappointment, some weeks before the release of ESO i did give the game another chance. After reaching lvl 30 I was so bored from the questing, on every map there were copy & paste quests and there were other things which did bother me.
I did actually quit the game but I would never write a review just picking out only the issues the game has, thats not a review. Some kind of neutrality in journalism is not always possible and reviews are often also personally, but there are just some standards.
If you add more negative points of this game, using a similar wording, give more weight to your personal opion and without to gauge the positive and negative aspects of a game you would have the same type of review and result.
This is just one example, but you could pick more from the top rated games and just review them to death.
Every author can write his review like he want and Iam not saying he doesnt have a point when he actually points out current issues in ESO, but consumer want to hear about both sides of a medal and that is necessary doesnt matter how is the outcome of the rating itself.
You're still doing it. You ignored a third of the unique dungeon layouts even before you start counting all of the various other spaces - like the unique ones that you enter as part of all three of the faction lines, the fighters guild, mage guild, and main quest line. You're not controlling for time spent in these places - e.g. a delve designed to take a few minutes counts the same as a group dungeon that is far longer. And you're ignoring the overland areas (again, huge.) It's a fair point that large games copy assets - it's not a fair point to skew the numbers in the way that you did.
I'm still in a state of disbelief that you decided that you hated something so much that you'd post a review, for free, to warn people against it. Most people have the idea that reviews are commissioned by people who are charged with providing an objective review of a product. Apparently, if you work at Toms' and you really hate something you can volunteer to write a "review" trashing it. If you can't see the pretty obvious problems that this causes, what can I say? If you have an angle like that it's pretty important to put it up front in the piece so that people know where you're coming from.
Care to share your examples of what he said that was a "deliberate distortion" and point out the reality of how the dungeons are nothing like what he said? You accuse the author and bring no evidence to support your accusation as if it's some kind of res ipsa loquitor. You accuse the author of distortion, but you then confirm what he said,calling dungeons (in your own words) a side show. You also didn't deny they were recycled But said there are other options. And then, as if that wasnt enough, you said......"This propaganda - coming from someone......." Text book Ad-hom. So far the reviewer has addressed points brought up with real counters and real examples to establish his claim, but I see nothing to the contrary other than empty accusations and personal attacks.
Off topic, how many patches do you guys think will pass before Zenimax fixes the World Boss spawn issues?
Daggerfall Covenant
=================
"Is Lesser Circle still broken?"
"Is Summoners Circle still broken?"
"Is Larder still broken?"
"Yes"
¯\_(ツ)_/¯