In all honesty there is little we can actually do to address this problem if it ever arises. For me I rather take my chances and buy and play Archage and worry about the future when it passes. The game seems solid from all that I have seen and watched and I love the feeling of a 'world' that they have created. Worrying about something that may never come to pass is a wasted exercise in my opinion.
Over the course of just about three years Trion has made a transformation from the closest to its customers to the most untrustworthy company. Their level of shadyness has topped those of Funcom by now.
I wouldn't touch AA with a ten foot pole and i'm sure Trion will find a way to run it down, just like every title they touched turned into a stinker due to their questionable decisions.
If it wasn't for this site constantly featuring the company left and right, nobody would even talk about them anymore.
I don't know about going that extreme, but I do agree with you for the most part. Trion used to be a company for the people, and now they act more like a Funcom. They still release great products and I consider Rift to be one the best themeparks to come out in the last 5 years, but questionable decisions on the business side definitely throw up some red flags these days. I do hope they come to their senses instead of getting even worse.
Well, just like Funcom, they started the monetization game. Where loyal customers of one successful title are milked to cover the losses of other less successful titles.
Besides, AA is already P2W.
Im sorry but how is it pw2 again?
Cash Shop/RMT + Player Driven Economy. Well, I guess you really can't call it "player driven" Probably more accurate to say "RMT Driven"
Can all items - those that dont come from subscriptions, be found in game? Can you farm the curancy that allow you to buy CS items? If so then its not p2w. if anything its p2igotthisbeforeyoudidbutyoucanstillgetitwithoutpayingforit
Actually, the answer to your question is no. You cannot simply grind for it. It's not a WoW clone. There is real estate to be had. Prime real estate vs. left overs. Territories to govern, resources to control. It's going to be all about who gets it and who is able to control it. This is what "Player Driven Economy" is supposed to be. And this is why having the ability to exchange real cash for game cash will be detrimental. That is, unless Trion doesn't put anything tradeable in the cash shop.
You talking about subscription vs f2p? Thats not what im asking. Im asking if you can farm the currency in game that is used to buy items in the cash shop. Subscriptions get perks that f2pers cant get like land ownership. You cant buy that in the cash shop. The p2w conversation seems to revolve around these "shards" used to upgrade armor. Is there another "p2w" feature other then that? I would like answers to these questions.
I can only address the MailRU F2P model. Perhaps Trion does it a bit differently? In all honesty I am not sure. But in AARU the main complaint from players regarding P2W came in the form of being able to buy 'labor points' with real money. The more labor points a character has, the more they can craft, the more they can craft, the faster they obtain top end gear, and also flood the market. You can eventually obtain crafted gear without paying a cent but if you are buying labor points then you gain them much much much quicker.
Over the course of just about three years Trion has made a transformation from the closest to its customers to the most untrustworthy company. Their level of shadyness has topped those of Funcom by now.
I wouldn't touch AA with a ten foot pole and i'm sure Trion will find a way to run it down, just like every title they touched turned into a stinker due to their questionable decisions.
If it wasn't for this site constantly featuring the company left and right, nobody would even talk about them anymore.
I don't know about going that extreme, but I do agree with you for the most part. Trion used to be a company for the people, and now they act more like a Funcom. They still release great products and I consider Rift to be one the best themeparks to come out in the last 5 years, but questionable decisions on the business side definitely throw up some red flags these days. I do hope they come to their senses instead of getting even worse.
Well, just like Funcom, they started the monetization game. Where loyal customers of one successful title are milked to cover the losses of other less successful titles.
Besides, AA is already P2W.
Im sorry but how is it pw2 again?
Cash Shop/RMT + Player Driven Economy. Well, I guess you really can't call it "player driven" Probably more accurate to say "RMT Driven"
Can all items - those that dont come from subscriptions, be found in game? Can you farm the curancy that allow you to buy CS items? If so then its not p2w. if anything its p2igotthisbeforeyoudidbutyoucanstillgetitwithoutpayingforit
Actually, the answer to your question is no. You cannot simply grind for it. It's not a WoW clone. There is real estate to be had. Prime real estate vs. left overs. Territories to govern, resources to control. It's going to be all about who gets it and who is able to control it. This is what "Player Driven Economy" is supposed to be. And this is why having the ability to exchange real cash for game cash will be detrimental. That is, unless Trion doesn't put anything tradeable in the cash shop.
You talking about subscription vs f2p? Thats not what im asking. Im asking if you can farm the currency in game that is used to buy items in the cash shop. Subscriptions get perks that f2pers cant get like land ownership. You cant buy that in the cash shop. The p2w conversation seems to revolve around these "shards" used to upgrade armor. Is there another "p2w" feature other then that? I would like answers to these questions.
I can only address the MailRU F2P model. Perhaps Trion does it a bit differently? In all honesty I am not sure. But in AARU the main complaint from players regarding P2W came in the form of being able to buy 'labor points' with real money. The more labor points a character has, the more they can craft, the more they can craft, the faster they obtain top end gear, and also flood the market. You can eventually obtain crafted gear without paying a cent but if you are buying labor points then you gain them much much much quicker.
This isn't about gear. It's not WoW. It's about Real Estate and who's going to control the game's resources from the 1st critical days. This is a race against time. After that, who cares? It's already done. Go grind away for your gear, The power players will already have their power bases established. If Trion sells items in the cash shop, that other players want, and can buy off each other, then it will create a market stream for a way to move real money into the game. And with a player controlled economy, it's never about gear. It's about resource control.
This is going to be a critical effect in the 1st days after the game releases when guilds will by vying for territories. Once the game's territories and resources are established and controlled. Grinding for your own gear will have little to do with "winning" Since the players who have all the power will be established.
I don't care about the "what if" theories, there are 2 games where related situations screwed them badly.
Perpetuum where the beta group was "secretly" given the option to pre order (Largely unknown little purchase option) that gave just a slight (and I mean very slight) advantage of only 5 days of skill points. In itself, that was almost a negligible advantage, but they pressed it and used it in the 1st crucial days. They were largely unstoppable. It cost the game. I was in the 2nd biggest alliance/corp in the game and we were still farmed, there was no real PVP.
Anarchy Online: With what players call "Services" due to looting loopholes, any player with enough credits can get anything in the game. Anything and everything. PVPgear, BiS gear, Raid drop gear, even hire players to power level you. You throw enough credits at someone and they will take your level 1 noob alt and take you to level 220 and get your fully geared. You don't do anything. OK, so you want to grind it yourself? Well, good luck, since most players are taking option A, Players who dont have the money or the gear, don't get groups, There's already a huge discussion in the forums about opening up player gear inspections, and player want the right to see who is under geared so they can kick them. Total pay to win system since AO introduced the cash shop with the ability to trade items.
Both of those games had/have heavy player economies. The system doesn't work.
Over the course of just about three years Trion has made a transformation from the closest to its customers to the most untrustworthy company. Their level of shadyness has topped those of Funcom by now.
I wouldn't touch AA with a ten foot pole and i'm sure Trion will find a way to run it down, just like every title they touched turned into a stinker due to their questionable decisions.
If it wasn't for this site constantly featuring the company left and right, nobody would even talk about them anymore.
I don't know about going that extreme, but I do agree with you for the most part. Trion used to be a company for the people, and now they act more like a Funcom. They still release great products and I consider Rift to be one the best themeparks to come out in the last 5 years, but questionable decisions on the business side definitely throw up some red flags these days. I do hope they come to their senses instead of getting even worse.
Well, just like Funcom, they started the monetization game. Where loyal customers of one successful title are milked to cover the losses of other less successful titles.
Besides, AA is already P2W.
Im sorry but how is it pw2 again?
Cash Shop/RMT + Player Driven Economy. Well, I guess you really can't call it "player driven" Probably more accurate to say "RMT Driven"
Can all items - those that dont come from subscriptions, be found in game? Can you farm the curancy that allow you to buy CS items? If so then its not p2w. if anything its p2igotthisbeforeyoudidbutyoucanstillgetitwithoutpayingforit
Actually, the answer to your question is no. You cannot simply grind for it. It's not a WoW clone. There is real estate to be had. Prime real estate vs. left overs. Territories to govern, resources to control. It's going to be all about who gets it and who is able to control it. This is what "Player Driven Economy" is supposed to be. And this is why having the ability to exchange real cash for game cash will be detrimental. That is, unless Trion doesn't put anything tradeable in the cash shop.
You talking about subscription vs f2p? Thats not what im asking. Im asking if you can farm the currency in game that is used to buy items in the cash shop. Subscriptions get perks that f2pers cant get like land ownership. You cant buy that in the cash shop. The p2w conversation seems to revolve around these "shards" used to upgrade armor. Is there another "p2w" feature other then that? I would like answers to these questions.
I can only address the MailRU F2P model. Perhaps Trion does it a bit differently? In all honesty I am not sure. But in AARU the main complaint from players regarding P2W came in the form of being able to buy 'labor points' with real money. The more labor points a character has, the more they can craft, the more they can craft, the faster they obtain top end gear, and also flood the market. You can eventually obtain crafted gear without paying a cent but if you are buying labor points then you gain them much much much quicker.
This isn't about gear. It's not WoW. It's about Real Estate and who's going to control the game's resources from the 1st critical days. This is a race against time. After that, who cares? It's already done. Go grind away for your gear, The power players will already have their power bases established. If Trion sells items in the cash shop, that other players want, and can buy off each other, then it will create a market stream for a way to move real money into the game. And with a player controlled economy, it's never about gear. It's about resource control.
This is going to be a critical effect in the 1st days after the game releases when guilds will by vying for territories. Once the game's territories and resources are established and controlled. Grinding for your own gear will have little to do with "winning" Since the players who have all the power will be established.
I don't care about the "what if" theories, there are 2 games where related situations screwed them badly.
Perpetuum where the beta group was "secretly" given the option to pre order (Largely unknown little purchase option) that gave just a slight (and I mean very slight) advantage of only 5 days of skill points. In itself, that was almost a negligible advantage, but they pressed it and used it in the 1st crucial days. They were largely unstoppable. It cost the game. I was in the 2nd biggest alliance/corp in the game and we were still farmed, there was no real PVP.
Anarchy Online: With what players call "Services" due to looting loopholes, any player with enough credits can get anything in the game. Anything and everything. PVPgear, BiS gear, Raid drop gear, even hire players to power level you. You throw enough credits at someone and they will take your level 1 noob alt and take you to level 220 and get your fully geared. You don't do anything. OK, so you want to grind it yourself? Well, good luck, since most players are taking option A, Players who dont have the money or the gear, don't get groups, There's already a huge discussion in the forums about opening up player gear inspections, and player want the right to see who is under geared so they can kick them. Total pay to win system since AO introduced the cash shop with the ability to trade items.
Both of those games had/have heavy player economies. The system doesn't work.
Then no matter what anyone does its doomed to failure? Land is only available to those that subscribe right? how much land can one person own? you seem to be describing the worst of the worst case scenarios that will likely not happen. And every game has those power players your referring to.
Ones that farm 24 hours a day and corner the market on resources. Hell im one of those people. LP aside, you can still farm for resorces Maybe not as fast as someone that buys LP ( if you can even do that with the NA version ) But you can still obtain the same items everyone else can. So still failing to see the "p2w"
Well both Rift and AA are F2P....to keep these games running...they need to make money. So those willing to put money into the game to keep it running certainly do deserve to be better equipped than the freeloaders. If everything was set up for both freeloaders and paying customers to be on equal ground....what would be the point of paying any money. Everybody would just run on F2P status and that would quickly shut down the games.
If you like the game support it by dumping a few bucks into it once in a while. Don't cry cause it's not 100% free. Nothing is free in the world. Even tho this generation seems to think the previous generation owes them a living.
Amen, the free loaders get mad because its not 100% free, because none of those people actually work, to make an MMO cost a lot of money and time, these free loaders need a new hobby.!!!
@Geezer The only land race is to purchase a house in a safe zone because spaces are limited. There is no land race on the north continent because there's really no incentive to atm. This isn't "in theory". Go ask any AA vet what happened to the north continent and why. You might not like the answer. There's a reason XL games finall said "screw it" and turn it into another safe zone. But that is all besides the point. The main point is to gain land, houses, castles, keeps, siege weapons, etc. - as you claim - how do you figure that goal is achieved? Money! Here's another bit you may not have thought of - economy. There is no item degrade - they last forever. If players are paying real money to produce items at a rate faster than game mechanics intend, it floods the market and destroys economy. In other words - pay to win. I want to believe trion will learn from xlgames mistakes.
*** Bottom Line It , PVE is Free To Play Grind You Little Free Loving Heart Out , PVP Is Pay To Play , If You Cant Afford To Minor Expense To Be Competitive In PVP , Go Back To The PVE Game Play . The Bulk Of All F2P Online Games Income Is PVP , You Dont Like The Pay To Win Concept Employed Be Nearly Every F2P MMO On The Markets PvP ? Would You Like It Better If The Game Just Shot Down From Lack Of Profits ? ***
If You Cant Afford A Few Bucks A Week On A Game You Play For 8 Hours A Week Plus , Maybe You Should Game Less And Go Find A Job / 2ND Job / Sell Plasma / or Pan Handle On The Subway
Originally posted by drakaena @Geezer The only land race is to purchase a house in a safe zone because spaces are limited. There is no land race on the north continent because there's really no incentive to atm. This isn't "in theory". Go ask any AA vet what happened to the north continent and why. You might not like the answer. There's a reason XL games finall said "screw it" and turn it into another safe zone. But that is all besides the point. The main point is to gain land, houses, castles, keeps, siege weapons, etc. - as you claim - how do you figure that goal is achieved? Money! Here's another bit you may not have thought of - economy. There is no item degrade - they last forever. If players are paying real money to produce items at a rate faster than game mechanics intend, it floods the market and destroys economy. In other words - pay to win. I want to believe trion will learn from xlgames mistakes.
I think we may be saying the same thing, not sure. Maybe on some of the points at least.
But overall, my feeling is that if there is a player driven economy and there is RMT from launch, there is P2W.
@ XapocX, I didn't say failure, I said P2W.
Time will prove me right or wrong, not that it matters what I say, but I am saying it anyway:
If Trion introduces a means to convert real cash into game cash, in a player driven economy game, you will have a P2W game.
The next most important factor from there will be the scale of it.
Well both Rift and AA are F2P....to keep these games running...they need to make money. So those willing to put money into the game to keep it running certainly do deserve to be better equipped than the freeloaders. If everything was set up for both freeloaders and paying customers to be on equal ground....what would be the point of paying any money. Everybody would just run on F2P status and that would quickly shut down the games.
If you like the game support it by dumping a few bucks into it once in a while. Don't cry cause it's not 100% free. Nothing is free in the world. Even tho this generation seems to think the previous generation owes them a living.
Amen, the free loaders get mad because its not 100% free, because none of those people actually work, to make an MMO cost a lot of money and time, these free loaders need a new hobby.!!!
And what about those who subscribe? Are they freeloaders? Do they deserve to be 2nd rate behind the big spenders too?
So what now? Will AA have a poverty class, middle class and, upper class?
Originally posted by GeezerGamer Originally posted by DarkcrystalOriginally posted by MMOredfalconWell both Rift and AA are F2P....to keep these games running...they need to make money. So those willing to put money into the game to keep it running certainly do deserve to be better equipped than the freeloaders. If everything was set up for both freeloaders and paying customers to be on equal ground....what would be the point of paying any money. Everybody would just run on F2P status and that would quickly shut down the games.If you like the game support it by dumping a few bucks into it once in a while. Don't cry cause it's not 100% free. Nothing is free in the world. Even tho this generation seems to think the previous generation owes them a living.
Amen, the free loaders get mad because its not 100% free, because none of those people actually work, to make an MMO cost a lot of money and time, these free loaders need a new hobby.!!!And what about those who subscribe? Are they freeloaders? Do they deserve to be 2nd rate behind the big spenders too?
So what now? Will AA have a poverty class, middle class and, upper class?
Those That Subscribe To A FREE TO PLAY MMORPG Are Fools, And Fools And Their Money Are Ezally Parted
Originally posted by MMOredfalconWell both Rift and AA are F2P....to keep these games running...they need to make money. So those willing to put money into the game to keep it running certainly do deserve to be better equipped than the freeloaders. If everything was set up for both freeloaders and paying customers to be on equal ground....what would be the point of paying any money. Everybody would just run on F2P status and that would quickly shut down the games.If you like the game support it by dumping a few bucks into it once in a while. Don't cry cause it's not 100% free. Nothing is free in the world. Even tho this generation seems to think the previous generation owes them a living.
Amen, the free loaders get mad because its not 100% free, because none of those people actually work, to make an MMO cost a lot of money and time, these free loaders need a new hobby.!!!
And what about those who subscribe? Are they freeloaders? Do they deserve to be 2nd rate behind the big spenders too?
So what now? Will AA have a poverty class, middle class and, upper class?
Those That Subscribe To A FREE TO PLAY MMORPG Are Fools, And Fools And Their Money Are Ezally Parted
If you want a house then you'd have to subscribe as open world housing is a pretty big draw of the game and only for Patrons.
Only problem is if the cash shop is ridiculously intrusive you end up paying far more than a usual sub game as you have a "sub" + transactions as F2P has to have a focus on the convenience items... perfect business model for a company but not good for the consumer.
Not a big fan of the freemium model myself. I'd rather have f2p with a straight up cash shop and no content restrictions or a sub game.
Comments
I can only address the MailRU F2P model. Perhaps Trion does it a bit differently? In all honesty I am not sure. But in AARU the main complaint from players regarding P2W came in the form of being able to buy 'labor points' with real money. The more labor points a character has, the more they can craft, the more they can craft, the faster they obtain top end gear, and also flood the market. You can eventually obtain crafted gear without paying a cent but if you are buying labor points then you gain them much much much quicker.
This isn't about gear. It's not WoW. It's about Real Estate and who's going to control the game's resources from the 1st critical days. This is a race against time. After that, who cares? It's already done. Go grind away for your gear, The power players will already have their power bases established. If Trion sells items in the cash shop, that other players want, and can buy off each other, then it will create a market stream for a way to move real money into the game. And with a player controlled economy, it's never about gear. It's about resource control.
This is going to be a critical effect in the 1st days after the game releases when guilds will by vying for territories. Once the game's territories and resources are established and controlled. Grinding for your own gear will have little to do with "winning" Since the players who have all the power will be established.
I don't care about the "what if" theories, there are 2 games where related situations screwed them badly.
Perpetuum where the beta group was "secretly" given the option to pre order (Largely unknown little purchase option) that gave just a slight (and I mean very slight) advantage of only 5 days of skill points. In itself, that was almost a negligible advantage, but they pressed it and used it in the 1st crucial days. They were largely unstoppable. It cost the game. I was in the 2nd biggest alliance/corp in the game and we were still farmed, there was no real PVP.
Anarchy Online: With what players call "Services" due to looting loopholes, any player with enough credits can get anything in the game. Anything and everything. PVPgear, BiS gear, Raid drop gear, even hire players to power level you. You throw enough credits at someone and they will take your level 1 noob alt and take you to level 220 and get your fully geared. You don't do anything. OK, so you want to grind it yourself? Well, good luck, since most players are taking option A, Players who dont have the money or the gear, don't get groups, There's already a huge discussion in the forums about opening up player gear inspections, and player want the right to see who is under geared so they can kick them. Total pay to win system since AO introduced the cash shop with the ability to trade items.
Both of those games had/have heavy player economies. The system doesn't work.
Then no matter what anyone does its doomed to failure? Land is only available to those that subscribe right? how much land can one person own? you seem to be describing the worst of the worst case scenarios that will likely not happen. And every game has those power players your referring to.
Ones that farm 24 hours a day and corner the market on resources. Hell im one of those people. LP aside, you can still farm for resorces Maybe not as fast as someone that buys LP ( if you can even do that with the NA version ) But you can still obtain the same items everyone else can. So still failing to see the "p2w"
Amen, the free loaders get mad because its not 100% free, because none of those people actually work, to make an MMO cost a lot of money and time, these free loaders need a new hobby.!!!
The only land race is to purchase a house in a safe zone because spaces are limited. There is no land race on the north continent because there's really no incentive to atm. This isn't "in theory". Go ask any AA vet what happened to the north continent and why. You might not like the answer. There's a reason XL games finall said "screw it" and turn it into another safe zone.
But that is all besides the point. The main point is to gain land, houses, castles, keeps, siege weapons, etc. - as you claim - how do you figure that goal is achieved? Money!
Here's another bit you may not have thought of - economy. There is no item degrade - they last forever. If players are paying real money to produce items at a rate faster than game mechanics intend, it floods the market and destroys economy.
In other words - pay to win.
I want to believe trion will learn from xlgames mistakes.
*** Bottom Line It , PVE is Free To Play Grind You Little Free Loving Heart Out , PVP Is Pay To Play , If You Cant Afford To Minor Expense To Be Competitive In PVP , Go Back To The PVE Game Play . The Bulk Of All F2P Online Games Income Is PVP , You Dont Like The Pay To Win Concept Employed Be Nearly Every F2P MMO On The Markets PvP ? Would You Like It Better If The Game Just Shot Down From Lack Of Profits ? ***
If You Cant Afford A Few Bucks A Week On A Game You Play For 8 Hours A Week Plus , Maybe You Should Game Less And Go Find A Job / 2ND Job / Sell Plasma / or Pan Handle On The Subway
I think we may be saying the same thing, not sure. Maybe on some of the points at least.
But overall, my feeling is that if there is a player driven economy and there is RMT from launch, there is P2W.
@ XapocX, I didn't say failure, I said P2W.
Time will prove me right or wrong, not that it matters what I say, but I am saying it anyway:
If Trion introduces a means to convert real cash into game cash, in a player driven economy game, you will have a P2W game.
The next most important factor from there will be the scale of it.
And what about those who subscribe? Are they freeloaders? Do they deserve to be 2nd rate behind the big spenders too?
So what now? Will AA have a poverty class, middle class and, upper class?
And what about those who subscribe? Are they freeloaders? Do they deserve to be 2nd rate behind the big spenders too?
So what now? Will AA have a poverty class, middle class and, upper class?
Those That Subscribe To A FREE TO PLAY MMORPG Are Fools, And Fools And Their Money Are Ezally Parted
If you want a house then you'd have to subscribe as open world housing is a pretty big draw of the game and only for Patrons.
Only problem is if the cash shop is ridiculously intrusive you end up paying far more than a usual sub game as you have a "sub" + transactions as F2P has to have a focus on the convenience items... perfect business model for a company but not good for the consumer.
Not a big fan of the freemium model myself. I'd rather have f2p with a straight up cash shop and no content restrictions or a sub game.
for me its p2p > sub2win > f2p with no/worthless sub option > sub2almostwin > pay2win
There are exceptions (Rift is a f2p with worthless sub option but better than sub2win) but there are very few.
If they charge for labor points in the cash shop than AA becomes sub2almostwin (joining LOTRO in that category)