The "level up" mentality

burrek · January 2006

I think the biggest issue with this game most people have is that they are stuck in the "level up" mentality. By this I mean their goal in the game is to level up by any means possible. The goal is to get to "the end game" and go for the "uber loot" and impress the bystandars. The comments about DnD that one can read most often are:

- no end game content

- no exp per mob

- combat that relies on skill and stats, and not purley on stats

- not enaugh levels

These, to me, implie that people consider accomplishing goals more important to the way they accomplish them.

The MMO community has been baited by the invisible carrot of level-up since the days of EQ. The level-up baiting is the expected norm for any new MMO. DnD, in my opinion, is trying to do something different. I belive it's not trying to make the journey to the goal more fun, like WoW, I think it's trying to make the journey into to goal itself.

I know it's a rather novel idea, to make the gamplay the main attracition, but I think once one drops the expectation of this being "another MMO" and considers the game as an "action/adventure game with MMOrpg elements" it's easy to see that all the previously mentioned concerns come from the expectation of level-up baiting.

If any of you played pnp DnD I bet your main concern was not getting to the next level. Most likely it was the adventuring (in your imagination) with friends. And this is precisley waht this game is trying to deliver: the adventure! It's not trying to be a level-up contest, or a PvP arena, nor a DnD simulator. It wants to capture the spirit of DnD, not the gameplay.

Any thoughts (not in general, but in respect to what I just wrote...) ? Am I just making up excuses for why 50% of the people hate this game or am I onto something... ?

Falconoffury · January 2006

I totally agree. This game will probably appeal more to the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate fans than the EQ and WoW fans. It's like a single player game, but you can bring your friends along. The game is almost in a class of its own.

RexNebular · January 2006

Originally posted by Falconoffury
I totally agree. This game will probably appeal more to the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate fans than the EQ and WoW fans. It's like a single player game, but you can bring your friends along.

The question is: are NWN and BG fans going to pay monthly subscription? Especially with NWN2 coming out this year?

I know EQ and WOW fans would, but they are probably used to mmorpgs, not a single player game where you can bring your friends along. And grind the same quest five times.

Tithrielle · January 2006

Originally posted by Falconoffury
I totally agree. This game will probably appeal more to the Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate fans than the EQ and WoW fans. It's like a single player game, but you can bring your friends along. The game is almost in a class of its own.

I think it will appeal to the WoW fans... DDO is the next 'big name franchise' MMO all the kids will be jumping on.

LackeyZero · January 2006

The level up mentality generally only lasts a few days to a week tops...Atleast I think that's how it was for me, maybe like 3 days?(I don't remember)... And yes that hindered PART of the fun, because I wasn't looking much at the multiple ways different situations could be dealt with... When I look at the whole picture though, to be honest there still isn't much... I see explosive boxes, shooting from range at certain areas, etc, but it's not done very creatively or not as much as I hope... I think i've seen alot more creative ways found in single player games...

Generally, people who have this mentality aren't the majority that's hating this game... The reasons are quite various... Most having to do with lack of content... No main storyline... And no real anticipation for anything, because there's no real goal, except level?...

I thought about this game and I tried it again... I did one quest and then just logged... Repetition really sux:/... And gosh I wish there was actually a goal in this game, like stopping those Coin Lords, Silver Flames or whatever, but there's no sense of that...

burrek · January 2006

Well my impression was that the dungeons were much better in terms of gameplay than those in NWN since you can have a more situational approach with the interactive enviornemnts. The only downside is that you sometimes do them a second time (or more if you die).

If you compare the gameplay to an action/rpg (like diablo) I think DDO comes out on top.

The only fix for the combat is that they need to introduce attacks of opportunity to make tumbel useful.

Odysses · January 2006

This game cannot possibly appeal to the hardcore mmorpg player. They will hit the lvl cap in 2 weeks and with no pvp or crafting there really isn't much to do after that except lvl another class up. This game will really appeal to casual players that just want to enjoy the ride. Turbine will need to add more game systems and content if they want to keep the casual gamer subscribbed because even the casual player will hit the cap in 3 months and hopefully they will have enough to keep them busy and entertained.

Ian_Hawkmoon · January 2006

Originally posted by burrek
I think the biggest issue with this game most people have is that they are stuck in the "level up" mentality. By this I mean their goal in the game is to level up by any means possible. The goal is to get to "the end game" and go for the "uber loot" and impress the bystandars. The comments about DnD that one can read most often are:

- no end game content

- no exp per mob

- combat that relies on skill and stats, and not purley on stats

- not enaugh levels

These, to me, implie that people consider accomplishing goals more important to the way they accomplish them.

OK, let me say a few things here. First off, you may or may nor be right. But, the whole point of the PnP DnD was to gain exp so you could get better and take on tougher mobs. Right? And in every version of the PnP game I have played in, you got exp for killing mobs. You did not get it right away, but at the end of every session we got exp for what we accomplished and what we killed. I mean, why would they put in normal exp for mobs in the fiend folio, monster manual, etc... if you weren't supposed to get it?

The MMO community has been baited by the invisible carrot of level-up since the days of EQ. The level-up baiting is the expected norm for any new MMO. DnD, in my opinion, is trying to do something different. I belive it's not trying to make the journey to the goal more fun, like WoW, I think it's trying to make the journey into to goal itself.

Again, that is also what DnD is. You gain levels to get better at what you do.

I know it's a rather novel idea, to make the gamplay the main attracition, but I think once one drops the expectation of this being "another MMO" and considers the game as an "action/adventure game with MMOrpg elements" it's easy to see that all the previously mentioned concerns come from the expectation of level-up baiting.

If that is what they want, why call it an MMORPG?

If any of you played pnp DnD I bet your main concern was not getting to the next level. Most likely it was the adventuring (in your imagination) with friends. And this is precisley waht this game is trying to deliver: the adventure! It's not trying to be a level-up contest, or a PvP arena, nor a DnD simulator. It wants to capture the spirit of DnD, not the gameplay.

Again, you are wrong... DnD was always about leveling up. The PnP games I played in were always about having fun, yes, but getting to the next level was also in our minds. And if DDO is trying to deliver "The Adventure", They missed. What advunture is there in doing a quest that takes 2-5 minutes to finish? Like most level 1 quests? And don't tell me it gets better the higher level you get, because you are then falling into the level up thing.

Any thoughts (not in general, but in respect to what I just wrote...) ? Am I just making up excuses for why 50% of the people hate this game or am I onto something... ?

Sorry, but I just can't agree with you. Do you really think that anyone would be happy doing a high level quest for up to two hours, and when they finish it a message tells tham that they did a good job. That's it, no exp, no reward. Just congratulations?

vmoped · January 2006

Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon

Again, you are wrong... DnD was always about leveling up. The PnP games I played in were always about having fun, yes, but getting to the next level was also in our minds. And if DDO is trying to deliver "The Adventure", They missed. What advunture is there in doing a quest that takes 2-5 minutes to finish? Like most level 1 quests? And don't tell me it gets better the higher level you get, because you are then falling into the level up thing.

Yep your right PnP games are all about leveling, not getting together with friends and enjoying using our imaginations. I know when i play DnD i just kill everyone and everything so I can level. /sarcasm off

Not to say no one keeps in mind their level or want to level up, but I don't no any roleplayer who solely plays to grind levels. BTW very few of the quests in DDO are done in 2-5 mins. Next time play beyond the starting area.

Ian_Hawkmoon · January 2006

Originally posted by vmoped

Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon

Again, you are wrong... DnD was always about leveling up. The PnP games I played in were always about having fun, yes, but getting to the next level was also in our minds. And if DDO is trying to deliver "The Adventure", They missed. What advunture is there in doing a quest that takes 2-5 minutes to finish? Like most level 1 quests? And don't tell me it gets better the higher level you get, because you are then falling into the level up thing.

Yep your right PnP games are all about leveling, not getting together with friends and enjoying using our imaginations. I know when i play DnD i just kill everyone and everything so I can level. /sarcasm off

Not to say no one keeps in mind their level or want to level up, but I don't no any roleplayer who solely plays to grind levels. BTW very few of the quests in DDO are done in 2-5 mins. Next time play beyond the starting area.

Did I say anywhere in my post that anyone played DnD "solely" to level up? You need to read what I post and not what you want to see. Read it again!

So you are suggesting that I "Level Up" so I can play the game the way it should be played? I thought this was not about leveling up? If you want to get away from the "Leveling Up" mentality, don't tell someone to level up in order to enjoy the game.

In the PnP groups I was in, we never went on the same quest twice. Can you say this about DDO? The Developers said themselves that you would need to repeat quests.

And by the way... Your sarcasm becomes you. A true DDO fan. No sarcasm intended.

Jodokai · January 2006

Originally posted by burrek

I think the biggest issue with this game most people have is that they are stuck in the "level up" mentality. By this I mean their goal in the game is to level up by any means possible. The goal is to get to "the end game" and go for the "uber loot" and impress the bystandars. The comments about DnD that one can read most often are:
I don't think you're reading enough. Some of these are common complaints, some of these are just parts of larger complaints, and some have hardly been complained about at all.
- no end game content
This is only part of the complaint. The rest is the need to repeat the same quests over again just to get to end game.
- no exp per mob
This is a common complaint, but you're missing the big picture. You see the game is set up to not really appeal to anyone. It's not very casual friendly because it forces grouping on you, and the only way to level is to do quests, which you MUST complete to get XP, and it's not "hardcore" friendly because you can't grind out levels quickly, there isn't enough content to keep them busy, so who does that leave?
- combat that relies on skill and stats, and not purley on stats
I don't think anyone says the game relies on skill. Spinning like a top clicking a mouse as fast as you can, doesn't take a lot of skill. Despite claims to the contrary, they haven't fixed circle strafing.
- not enaugh levels
This isn't the complaint I hear. They've added artificial levels instead of including the 20 that D&D is supposed to have.
These, to me, implie that people consider accomplishing goals more important to the way they accomplish them.
The MMO community has been baited by the invisible carrot of level-up since the days of EQ. The level-up baiting is the expected norm for any new MMO. DnD, in my opinion, is trying to do something different. I belive it's not trying to make the journey to the goal more fun, like WoW, I think it's trying to make the journey into to goal itself.
Now see to me, the goal of a game is to have fun. Some people find leveling up fun, some think the journey is fun. DDO won't appeal to either of these people.
I know it's a rather novel idea, to make the gamplay the main attracition, but I think once one drops the expectation of this being "another MMO" and considers the game as an "action/adventure game with MMOrpg elements" it's easy to see that all the previously mentioned concerns come from the expectation of level-up baiting.
You keep using the term "level-up baiting" as if it's a bad thing. As if game makers are just tricking their players. As if the players aren't REALLY having fun they're just being tricked into THINKING they're having fun. Well if I think I'm having fun, then that means I AM having fun.
If any of you played pnp DnD I bet your main concern was not getting to the next level. Most likely it was the adventuring (in your imagination) with friends. And this is precisley waht this game is trying to deliver: the adventure! It's not trying to be a level-up contest, or a PvP arena, nor a DnD simulator. It wants to capture the spirit of DnD, not the gameplay.
Except it fails horribly. I've said this plenty of times, but in case you missed it: To capture the feel and spirit of D&D, it takes more than a couple of friends bringing their characters to some NPC's basement to clear out slimes and smash crates. It takes more than some NPC sayin to the PC's, "Hey go down 3 blocks, hang a left and go into that basement, and kill all the monsters".
I mean if Galdolf said, He Frodo, go throw this ring in the basement of the second house on the right, after you smash some crates, D&D would probably never have been invented.
They've taken out the whole epic feel of D&D.
Any thoughts (not in general, but in respect to what I just wrote...) ? Am I just making up excuses for why 50% of the people hate this game or am I onto something... ?
No, I think you're only tackling the simple complaints, while ignore the larger ones. I think you're also forgetting that Turbine expects people to pay $180 a year for this game. It has to offer something for that money that NWN2 or other single player games don't offer, and right now it doesn't.
I also believe that more than 50% of the people that have played the game, don't like it, but that's just a guess.

burrek · January 2006

Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon

Originally posted by burrek

I think the biggest issue with this game most people have is that they are stuck in the "level up" mentality. By this I mean their goal in the game is to level up by any means possible. The goal is to get to "the end game" and go for the "uber loot" and impress the bystandars. The comments about DnD that one can read most often are:
- no end game content
- no exp per mob
- combat that relies on skill and stats, and not purley on stats
- not enaugh levels
These, to me, implie that people consider accomplishing goals more important to the way they accomplish them.
OK, let me say a few things here. First off, you may or may nor be right. But, the whole point of the PnP DnD was to gain exp so you could get better and take on tougher mobs. Right? And in every version of the PnP game I have played in, you got exp for killing mobs. You did not get it right away, but at the end of every session we got exp for what we accomplished and what we killed. I mean, why would they put in normal exp for mobs in the fiend folio, monster manual, etc... if you weren't supposed to get it?
The MMO community has been baited by the invisible carrot of level-up since the days of EQ. The level-up baiting is the expected norm for any new MMO. DnD, in my opinion, is trying to do something different. I belive it's not trying to make the journey to the goal more fun, like WoW, I think it's trying to make the journey into to goal itself.
Again, that is also what DnD is. You gain levels to get better at what you do.
I know it's a rather novel idea, to make the gamplay the main attracition, but I think once one drops the expectation of this being "another MMO" and considers the game as an "action/adventure game with MMOrpg elements" it's easy to see that all the previously mentioned concerns come from the expectation of level-up baiting.
If that is what they want, why call it an MMORPG?
If any of you played pnp DnD I bet your main concern was not getting to the next level. Most likely it was the adventuring (in your imagination) with friends. And this is precisley waht this game is trying to deliver: the adventure! It's not trying to be a level-up contest, or a PvP arena, nor a DnD simulator. It wants to capture the spirit of DnD, not the gameplay.
Again, you are wrong... DnD was always about leveling up. The PnP games I played in were always about having fun, yes, but getting to the next level was also in our minds. And if DDO is trying to deliver "The Adventure", They missed. What advunture is there in doing a quest that takes 2-5 minutes to finish? Like most level 1 quests? And don't tell me it gets better the higher level you get, because you are then falling into the level up thing.
Any thoughts (not in general, but in respect to what I just wrote...) ? Am I just making up excuses for why 50% of the people hate this game or am I onto something... ?
Sorry, but I just can't agree with you. Do you really think that anyone would be happy doing a high level quest for up to two hours, and when they finish it a message tells tham that they did a good job. That's it, no exp, no reward. Just congratulations?

Well, from my experience in the first 3 levels of DDO I never had to repeat a quest unless there was a party whipe or the quest was so fun I wanted to play through it again. There ware even some quests I skipped since there was so much to do.

Once again, don't expect DDO to be a level-up game. Level-up is a side-effect of adventuring. This game is closer to a game like Demons Stone then to WoW. What makes it an RPG is the fact you have character progression and ability to define your character as you please, and what makes it massive is that the servers hold about 500-1000 people. It is not a cookie cutter MMOrpg, yet it does have all the traits to be classied as such. Will you feel better if they'd call it an online action RPG set in the Eberron campign setting?

burrek · January 2006

Originally posted by Jodokai

Originally posted by burrek

I think the biggest issue with this game most people have is that they are stuck in the "level up" mentality. By this I mean their goal in the game is to level up by any means possible. The goal is to get to "the end game" and go for the "uber loot" and impress the bystandars. The comments about DnD that one can read most often are:
I don't think you're reading enough. Some of these are common complaints, some of these are just parts of larger complaints, and some have hardly been complained about at all.
- no end game content
This is only part of the complaint. The rest is the need to repeat the same quests over again just to get to end game.
- no exp per mob
This is a common complaint, but you're missing the big picture. You see the game is set up to not really appeal to anyone. It's not very casual friendly because it forces grouping on you, and the only way to level is to do quests, which you MUST complete to get XP, and it's not "hardcore" friendly because you can't grind out levels quickly, there isn't enough content to keep them busy, so who does that leave?
- combat that relies on skill and stats, and not purley on stats
I don't think anyone says the game relies on skill. Spinning like a top clicking a mouse as fast as you can, doesn't take a lot of skill. Despite claims to the contrary, they haven't fixed circle strafing.
- not enaugh levels
This isn't the complaint I hear. They've added artificial levels instead of including the 20 that D&D is supposed to have.
These, to me, implie that people consider accomplishing goals more important to the way they accomplish them.
The MMO community has been baited by the invisible carrot of level-up since the days of EQ. The level-up baiting is the expected norm for any new MMO. DnD, in my opinion, is trying to do something different. I belive it's not trying to make the journey to the goal more fun, like WoW, I think it's trying to make the journey into to goal itself.
Now see to me, the goal of a game is to have fun. Some people find leveling up fun, some think the journey is fun. DDO won't appeal to either of these people.
I know it's a rather novel idea, to make the gamplay the main attracition, but I think once one drops the expectation of this being "another MMO" and considers the game as an "action/adventure game with MMOrpg elements" it's easy to see that all the previously mentioned concerns come from the expectation of level-up baiting.
You keep using the term "level-up baiting" as if it's a bad thing. As if game makers are just tricking their players. As if the players aren't REALLY having fun they're just being tricked into THINKING they're having fun. Well if I think I'm having fun, then that means I AM having fun.
If any of you played pnp DnD I bet your main concern was not getting to the next level. Most likely it was the adventuring (in your imagination) with friends. And this is precisley waht this game is trying to deliver: the adventure! It's not trying to be a level-up contest, or a PvP arena, nor a DnD simulator. It wants to capture the spirit of DnD, not the gameplay.
Except it fails horribly. I've said this plenty of times, but in case you missed it: To capture the feel and spirit of D&D, it takes more than a couple of friends bringing their characters to some NPC's basement to clear out slimes and smash crates. It takes more than some NPC sayin to the PC's, "Hey go down 3 blocks, hang a left and go into that basement, and kill all the monsters".
I mean if Galdolf said, He Frodo, go throw this ring in the basement of the second house on the right, after you smash some crates, D&D would probably never have been invented.
They've taken out the whole epic feel of D&D.
Any thoughts (not in general, but in respect to what I just wrote...) ? Am I just making up excuses for why 50% of the people hate this game or am I onto something... ?
No, I think you're only tackling the simple complaints, while ignore the larger ones. I think you're also forgetting that Turbine expects people to pay $180 a year for this game. It has to offer something for that money that NWN2 or other single player games don't offer, and right now it doesn't.
I also believe that more than 50% of the people that have played the game, don't like it, but that's just a guess.

I have to agree that the lack of an epic story, other then: "You come to Stormreach in search of adventure... and you find some" is a real killer for the atmosphere. THe quests seem more like a series of side-quests in a cRPG, not a dramatic and epic quest to stop some mighty foe.

But achieving something more would be very hard to accomplish. This is a problem with all MMOs. They even have no main story or just have everyone go through the same story arc (FFXI, GW). I tried to think up a solution to the problem stome time ago. What I think would be a nice way of creating a personal epic story for every player would be to creat a villan in a random fashion for every player. Make the start of the game be a one of many random plot starter quests that reflect your class/race combination and include your personal villan. After the opening the player woudl go around doing "side-quests". Then there could be another story quest every 5-10 levels where you could ask your friends for help. These story quests would follow depending on your initial story quest and would have your personal villan creat some mischief. The players would slowly discover a greater plot, where your particular villan is a liutenant of some arch-fiend common to all players, thus tying everyones story-arc togather.

As to the lack of exp awards for individual monsters: the monster exp is accounted in the quest exp, it's not explicitly stated, but it is part of the tally. If you die and fail the quest you don't get exp, which is better than having to re-roll your character! So stop listening to ignorant tards who either took a peek at the game's list of features or simply can't get the idea into their heads that if you fail a quest you don't get exp. (there are also non-quest areas where you can face random encounters and get exp for that so you can GRIND if you want)

SeventhSin · January 2006

I guess that you can say that I have the "level up mentality" but after thinking about it, I dont see that as a bad thing. Leveling up in other games is how you advance your character. I greatly enjoy character advancement and personally, I dont understand why others wouldnt, but I guess its just preference. As far as end game content, I'm really hoping that they add some, for the sake of the game. Without end game content, why will people continue to pay a monthly fee? If its a game that you win and then you're done then I will be very surprised... How Turbine expects to hold their customers withour end game content is beyond me... Then again, I'm always skeptical. ::::40::

vmoped · January 2006

Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon

Originally posted by vmoped

Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon

Again, you are wrong... DnD was always about leveling up. The PnP games I played in were always about having fun, yes, but getting to the next level was also in our minds. And if DDO is trying to deliver "The Adventure", They missed. What advunture is there in doing a quest that takes 2-5 minutes to finish? Like most level 1 quests? And don't tell me it gets better the higher level you get, because you are then falling into the level up thing.

Yep your right PnP games are all about leveling, not getting together with friends and enjoying using our imaginations. I know when i play DnD i just kill everyone and everything so I can level. /sarcasm off

Not to say no one keeps in mind their level or want to level up, but I don't no any roleplayer who solely plays to grind levels. BTW very few of the quests in DDO are done in 2-5 mins. Next time play beyond the starting area.

Did I say anywhere in my post that anyone played DnD "solely" to level up? You need to read what I post and not what you want to see. Read it again!

So you are suggesting that I "Level Up" so I can play the game the way it should be played? I thought this was not about leveling up? If you want to get away from the "Leveling Up" mentality, don't tell someone to level up in order to enjoy the game.

In the PnP groups I was in, we never went on the same quest twice. Can you say this about DDO? The Developers said themselves that you would need to repeat quests.

And by the way... Your sarcasm becomes you. A true DDO fan. No sarcasm intended.

(see the red) Yep your right, I didn't read your post... /sarcasm off

(see the blue) Nope, just that you play more than just the first 4-6 quests.

(see the yellow) Yep, you got me, I like the game, oh darn...

(see the green) Now I wonder where I said this? *shrugs*

(see the orange) You don't have to do the same quests over and over, unless you only care about leveling. I have a level 6 toon in DDO (soon to be 7), and the only quests I have repeated are to help friends complete them.

Advancing your character is a part of D&D yes, but it is not what "DnD was always about" as you put it. Levels reflect your character's experience, and originally your status within the campaign, yet it is not something you should roleplay. Characters in properly run games don't run around and say "Don't worry I'm a level 20 paladin, I can handle that problem." You advance your character personally through levels, but more importantly, socially (or thru status) through interactions with the other players and DM in the respective campaign world. Roleplaying games get boring to me when the other players care more about leveling, instead of just acting their characters out.

burrek · January 2006

Originally posted by SeventhSin

I guess that you can say that I have the "level up mentality" but after thinking about it, I dont see that as a bad thing. Leveling up in other games is how you advance your character. I greatly enjoy character advancement and personally, I dont understand why others wouldnt, but I guess its just preference. As far as end game content, I'm really hoping that they add some, for the sake of the game. Without end game content, why will people continue to pay a monthly fee? If its a game that you win and then you're done then I will be very surprised... How Turbine expects to hold their customers withour end game content is beyond me... Then again, I'm always skeptical.

I agree. I don't think this game will appeal to all the people to play just to get the best items and to "level-up". I personally don't like being pressured to level up and prefer leveling to be a relfection of my character's growing strength and not viceversa.

Must likely DDO is not going to be a long running game, yet I think you still get more "bang for your buck" then single player games, and better content than most mmos. The first 30 days are really going to be worth the price of addmission. (as opposed to 8 hours constant action or 6 months of grinding)

Ian_Hawkmoon · January 2006

Originally posted by vmoped

Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon

Originally posted by vmoped

Originally posted by Ian_Hawkmoon

Again, you are wrong... DnD was always about leveling up. The PnP games I played in were always about having fun, yes, but getting to the next level was also in our minds. And if DDO is trying to deliver "The Adventure", They missed. What advunture is there in doing a quest that takes 2-5 minutes to finish? Like most level 1 quests? And don't tell me it gets better the higher level you get, because you are then falling into the level up thing.

Yep your right PnP games are all about leveling, not getting together with friends and enjoying using our imaginations. I know when i play DnD i just kill everyone and everything so I can level. /sarcasm off

Not to say no one keeps in mind their level or want to level up, but I don't no any roleplayer who solely plays to grind levels. BTW very few of the quests in DDO are done in 2-5 mins. Next time play beyond the starting area.

Did I say anywhere in my post that anyone played DnD "solely" to level up? You need to read what I post and not what you want to see. Read it again!

I wonder sometime if you can read... Read it again... I never posted in the original post that DnD was "SOLELY" about leveling up... Yes, I did say it was always about leveling up and it is... But that is not what it is all about. And again, I never said it was just about leveling up... Again read it slowly this time.

So you are suggesting that I "Level Up" so I can play the game the way it should be played? I thought this was not about leveling up? If you want to get away from the "Leveling Up" mentality, don't tell someone to level up in order to enjoy the game.

In the PnP groups I was in, we never went on the same quest twice. Can you say this about DDO? The Developers said themselves that you would need to repeat quests.

And by the way... Your sarcasm becomes you. A true DDO fan. No sarcasm intended.

(see the red) Yep your right, I didn't read your post... /sarcasm off

(see the blue) Nope, just that you play more than just the first 4-6 quests.

I have played more that the first 4-6 quests... I am not sure you have tho... The groups I was in finiahes most of them in less than 10 minutes, most less than 5 minutes.. This was usually because someone knew the quest.

(see the yellow) Yep, you got me, I like the game, oh darn...

(see the green) Now I wonder where I said this? *shrugs*

(see the orange) You don't have to do the same quests over and over, unless you only care about leveling. I have a level 6 toon in DDO (soon to be 7), and the only quests I have repeated are to help friends complete them.

Advancing your character is a part of D&D yes, but it is not what "DnD was always about" as you put it. Levels reflect your character's experience, and originally your status within the campaign, yet it is not something you should roleplay. Characters in properly run games don't run around and say "Don't worry I'm a level 20 paladin, I can handle that problem." You advance your character personally through levels, but more importantly, socially (or thru status) through interactions with the other players and DM in the respective campaign world. Roleplaying games get boring to me when the other players care more about leveling, instead of just acting their characters out.

If you want to argue semantics go right ahead.. I stand by what I said. the PnP DnD has always been about leveling. Call it what you want... Every person who plays the PnP DnD wants to level his/her character. Wether or not you RP it is something completely different.

When I played in PnP games, I was always for RPing. I once played in a group that took 5 gaming sessions to get out of the town we were in to get to our quest area, because we were having too much fun RPing.

Just don't give me this crap about no-one being concerned about their level and getting to the next level.

BillyHero · January 2006

I have to agree with every last part of this. I've been following this game for sometime now, while playing WoW for the past year. And toward last dec i relized that i was getting really tired of getting a char to 60 then anouther then anouther- following a formula- and always havign to FIGHT for some real partying and socialization.

DDO is not just anouther mmoprg. Its somethign differnt- and should be rated and compared likewise.

lazerbeard · January 2006

exact reason why i love this game. I played WoW for about 8 months, in that time i made like 17 characters and got like 10 of them to lvl 40-50, got bored and started over. When i played WoW, it seemed like the entire focus was on lvling alone, it was just lvl lvl lvl lvl lvl, kill 5 of this by pressing like one button, go get this and give it to me, repeat 5000000 times, horay, you got a level! I had a relitively good time doing that but once i got to 40, lvls slowed down, travel time grew and you were focused on gameplay, which as it turned out, i found to be really really boring. I cancelled my subscription after creating character after character because I couldnt make one that the core gameplay really interested me with.

After I did, I thought, why cant they make an MMO thats like one of those 3rd person hack and slash games, like ninja gaiden, or one of the jedi knight games, and make that into an MMO? Now Im not saying that the combat in DDO is anywhere near as interesting or super fun as in ninja gaiden (still waiting for someone to be able to pull THAT off) but it is closer. I love how DDO seems to make combat, adventuring and party tactics the main focus and lvling just icing on the cake.

As to the person who said that the level up mentality doesnt trick people into thinking they are having fun, i kinda disagree. When i played WoW, all I could think about was getting the next level, it didnt matter how boring and repetitive the quests i was doing were, or how I was soloing almost all the time, or how the combat was pretty uninteresting, i told myself i wil be having fun once i lvl/get the new gear/next profession level/etc, but when i got to 40, the lvling slowed down, leaving me with only the gameplay. I found DDO's gameplay the main focus, so i didnt even care so much when i lvled, it was cool, but I wasnt striving and hungering to hit that next level like i was in WoW.

stucool · January 2006

I am playing the beta now. I mean, guys, it's simple. If it's fun, play it. If it ain't, don't. I like it because I don't have 10 hours a day to get to the end. I'm just a simple kind of man. Heck, I like WoW and CoH, and to some people that is a dumb thing. After all, it's just a game.

knightaudit · January 2006

I wanted to comment on these items

- no end game content Well in the PnP version there is not end game either. Generaly you get tired of playing the game and retire to some out of the way place.

- no exp per mob Ok that is true but it does stop others from farming (One of my pet peaves)

- combat that relies on skill and stats, and not purley on stats So your saying that because you are stron this makes you a perfect fighter? Skill and stats make a fighter not just stats.

- not enough levels Well the PnP game has only 20 and I can see them adding levels later on as an expansion.

I have just started on the beta but find it a good game .. has a few bugs that need to be ironed out but over all I will have to say that so far it is a good game. I have seen a few games that even when finaly released were a lot worse than this.

Ian_Hawkmoon · January 2006

Originally posted by knightaudit

I wanted to comment on these items

- no end game content Well in the PnP version there is not end game either. Generaly you get tired of playing the game and retire to some out of the way place.

I have to agree with you here...

- no exp per mob Ok that is true but it does stop others from farming (One of my pet peaves)

I dissagree here... You should at least get exp for mobs when you complete the quest. And it would still stop farming.

- combat that relies on skill and stats, and not purley on stats So your saying that because you are stron this makes you a perfect fighter? Skill and stats make a fighter not just stats.

What I would say about this is that your character stats should make a difference... Not you real life stats... I sould not need good real life hand eye coordination to play...

- not enough levels Well the PnP game has only 20 and I can see them adding levels later on as an expansion.

I can see Turbine adding more levels too in an expansion pack... And easy way to make more money... Just like adding Druids and Monks, and maybe add the races they left out too. I just think that you shouldn't need to pay for an expansion pack to get these.

I have just started on the beta but find it a good game .. has a few bugs that need to be ironed out but over all I will have to say that so far it is a good game. I have seen a few games that even when finaly released were a lot worse than this.

Again, I agree here...

Jodokai · February 2006

Originally posted by stucool
I am playing the beta now. I mean, guys, it's simple. If it's fun, play it. If it ain't, don't. I like it because I don't have 10 hours a day to get to the end. I'm just a simple kind of man. Heck, I like WoW and CoH, and to some people that is a dumb thing. After all, it's just a game.

So how far into the game are you? You see as you get higher level you're going to realize that you might never make it to end game. The higher level quests take much more time to complete, you HAVE to have a group (which takes time to form) so if you don't have a lot of time, you'll NEVER get XP, unless you go back and do the quests you've already done. Talk about adding to the monotony.

calanorn · February 2006

well i have just hit lvl 7 and ive not repeated any quests apart from the enjoyable ones so i dunno what all this bull about you cant get to lvl 10 without repeating is yer if you die loads are a totally crap player or do no optionals in a quest u will need to and either way what is the diffrence the quests are more enjoyable then grinding some uber exp spot in EQ or WoW and im guessing you never hunt in the same zones or raid the same monsters after the first time on that do u?

quit with the hang up about content allready they add it at a good pace the first patch after release adds the dragon and the last patch up'd the difficulty and the exp so lvl 10 should be reachable without repeating quests but if thats not good enough grab your friends trek for 2 hours through your huge enviroment and camp that spot and kill 5000 mobs til you hear that ding. btw guys work out what casual means this game is aimed towards casual players not hardcore grinders.

Hashman · February 2006

I know people shouldn't compare DDO to a game like WoW, but it is the most successful mmorpg ever and in my opinion it would be naive to say that people new to mmorpgs or those who are looking for their 2nd one, don't compare DDO to WoW, they do. WoW has set a standard and it is a very high one.

I was regenarating health in a tavern and someone was aghast that they didn't receive any xp for killing a mob, they were also taken aback when someone told them what the level cap was, as if that was in some way the whole point of DDO.

I just feel that Turbnie are trying to please two groups of people that have a totally different approach and could end up not fully satisfying either. The WoW crowd will be displeased at the lack of levels, phat lewt, forced grouping, but will like the action side of it. The DnD purists will be annoyed that there are classes missing, that it's only a part of Eberron and will likely hate the action side of it (plus it can be annoying with some things that don't translate well like jumping). But, WoW type players will get bored/frustrated and DnD fans may look to NWN2.

GungaDin · February 2006

Leveling is a step in the wrong direction. What worked was Ultima Online's Method. It was skill based. Much more enjoyable, didnt have to worry about killing creatures for experience. The experience was in the real life player, not the character stats. Once everyone allocated their skills to Max then what mattered was your actual gameplay experience. Your PVP abilities depended on what you learned playing for months (ie tactics). There was no level to define you and uber loot just wasnt that important back in 1998. This is how the MMORPGS should be made, not crappy leveling. SWG had a nice skill based system but they messed that up too. I won't play another MMORPG that doesnt use a skill based system, leveling is just plain boring and really gives more of an advantage to power gamers. In UO if I was a 700 skill pt mage against another 700 skill pt mage, your tactics and experience made the difference since you were both equal in skills. Great system that should be built upon. Leveling is just a step backwards.

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