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[Column] Guild Wars 2: Can GW2 Serve As the Template For The Future of MMOs?

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Comments

  • KalferKalfer Member Posts: 779

    I don't think any game should be a template for others, simply because then you end up with the same thing with different skin. First Person Shooters having the same feel and pacing as Call of Duty has been a major problem. And the same with WoW clones.

     

     

    To me, the genius of GW2s events is that they are inclusive. In most MMORPGs other players are a bad time. They steal your resources, they make it more difficult for you to get things done. In GW2 its difficult to grief other players, and as a result I have run into far less idiots in GW2 than any other game. Two years after release I still get rezzed by other players and see very few facepalming discussions sucking out the enjoyment. 

     

    For that alone I find the game more meaningful than anything I have played since SWG. The game is only as good as the people you play with. Adding to that the encounters like Tequatl and Triple-Wurm has really warmed up the community. People are hungry for more open world raid bosses. They are really fun, and the organization of 150 people in a single area is not something I have seen before when they are afilliated by guild or something. It's interesting seeing the average player getting bettter. 

     

    It's been a hard road for GW2, but I think they have done some great things. 1400 hours later, I still enjoy it. 60$ bucks well spent!

  • VorchVorch Member UncommonPosts: 793
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by Vorch
    Originally posted by Lunarpac

    I really liked the skill capture system from GW1 as well, I haven't seen that in recent MMOs.

    Regarding the trinity, I was playing a Guardian - drawing constant aggro from most mobs in the vicinity. Ultimately, I ran out of defensive cooldowns, and died. A lot. That was kinda tiresome in the end. It was a nice idea to circumvent the holy trinity, but the idea was poorly implemented imo. More incentive to pick different roles would be nice, as you say.

    Just wanted to stop in and say that the guardian has some insane tanking potential. If you (or someone reading this) wants to try a guardian build, give Strife's Anchor Guardian build a shot:

     

    http://intothemists.com/guides/121-ahem_anchor_guard_strifes_build

    Curious as I play a Guardian as well, did they bring in a threat mechanic I.E. taunts or is it sill some mumbo jumbo algorithm involving toughness? Being able to actually tank on my Guard with taunts and such would bring me back to play again as I haven't logged in for nearly 3 months at this point.

    Here is the GW2 wiki article on aggro

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

     

    A guardian can control aggro better than most classes with movement control on their greatsword, hammer, and staff. Blocking, using a shield, having toughness, and dealing damage all control the "threat" mechanic and are all things that a guardian can do. Reviving also places you at the top of the threat table.

    No, guardians can not be unkillable, stationary tanks. However, they can hold aggro and keep themselves up for a LONG time, especially once you know when to time your dodges with almost permanent vigor (increases the amount of times you are allowed to dodge)

    For most dungeon bosses, by the time a decent guardian is feeling the heat, the boss/enemies should be dead.

    I personally prefer GS+Hammer for my guardian, but the meta is GS+Staff to give the rest of your party some extra might and give you some mid-ranged AoE attacks.

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • Dimsum1337Dimsum1337 Member UncommonPosts: 60

    1) I muchly disagree with Bill Murphy's Archeage article which in my opinion completely misses the point of everything that Archeage is about (I played throughout the Russian beta and a few months after until I realised that for me sadly the game was too hardcore socially and I couldnt put in the long hours i.e. doing pack runs to Cuba till 5 a.m. with the guild only to wake up and go to work in a few hours- in that way for me very reminiscent of my WoW MC days in a good way).

    2) As much as I wanted to like GW2 and enjoyed bits n bobs and the pretty ,  overall the game for me personally came across as shallow. Pointless pvp, pointless WvW, pointless story that I missed out on since I didnt continuously play it, pointless guilds that you could swap as you wish.

    Having said all that I do think that GW2 does appeal to alot of people and that means that it did do certain things right. Moving away from a one game to rule them all mentality I am sure GW2 can serve as a great template for future games that could do alot better and still appeal to the GW2 fanbase.

    -my 2 c.    

  • KalferKalfer Member Posts: 779
    Originally posted by Vorch
    Originally posted by PioneerStew

    This is my issue as well.  For me GW1 was a far more innovative game than GW2 and it was quite unique with many interesting features.

    Then GW2 took all of those interesting features, removed them and turned the game into a fairly derivative mmo.  

    If developer's are going to use a template, please use GW1's as it will provide something a little different.   

    In GW1, people complained to death about skill capturing...so they added tomes/elite tomes.

    Caravan Vanquishing took hours. And Title grinding (which people like to forget added a statistical bonus) took days of play time. And I know people have experienced disconnects at the tail-end of a vanquish and having to start all over...

    People have also said that they loved GW1s exploration. I can't think of a single person in my guild, in chat, or basically in the game who loved getting Legendary Cartographer. It essentially *required* the use of a third party program to complete.

    And with 1300 skills (roughly 85-140 per profession) and dual classing, people like to say there was huge build variety. However, I played GW1 for 6 years (PvE, RA, AB, and JQ)...this build variety is greatly overstated. Did anyone ever bring Orison of Healing, the benchmark monk skill, on their bar? Never...they'd be kicked instantly.  If you're playing poker and get to choose the cards in your hand, you're not going to show 2s, 3s, and 4s. I personally vanquished the entire game with a cookie cutter Sabway + Mesmerway Team Build (didn't even need to talk to people, lol).

    By the end of my time playing GW1, my warrior had the same build as my necromancer, mesmer, and dervish. This wasn't out of the ordinary...it was the norm for farming and vanquishing. Could it be done differently? Yea, but again, why choose a pair of 3s when you can choose the Royal Flush every time?

    I loved GW1. I played for thousands of hours and don't regret a moment. But I always chuckle when build diversity, skill capturing, map completion, and vanquishing are listed as things in the plus column. Perhaps the REWARD for completing these tasks was worth it (I love my God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals title), but the tasks were very tedious. The most fun I had in GW1 was in my guild hall (which GW2 still lacks for some reason), farming during holidays, and just chatting.

     

    GW1 is a great game. I guess I'm just always surprised at what people now think was good about it today.

     

    /rant

    Nostalgia always wins. People remember the good bits and forget all the not-so good bits. 

     

    I agree that GW1 is a great game, but many of the things in GW2 are much better. The skill system in GW1 was over bloated and had tons of copy-pasted skills that only had a smaller/bigger cast time, or energy cost, but was identical in animation, sound and and description. 

    All this give the hint of true change, but in reality it was just complex and complicated for new players. It's no secret that GW1 PvP never became what they had hoped it to become. A real e-sport in Korea. 

    Also the world was restrictive, it had very few content updates (sorrows furnance, and something else) and then it was mostly just fixes and small additions with the exception of observer mode!

    GW2 adds a Y-Axis, real-time evading, true line-of-sight and simply reduces the clutter of skills. It adds to a much more refined and combat system IMO. It's too bad that most people don't know about skill combos with other classes and their own weapons, or learn about what stability, condi removal, and so on brings to the table! Most of all I love the removal of things like threat, taunt and CC. These things are not fun at all to me. In GW2 nobody can tank or heal forever, so people swap out. Dodge out of tanking range, heal, then go back in again, and the rest of the group have to account for that. so everyone swaps role in a single fight in rotation. it really shows in higher level fractals and the new Aetherblade Dungeon they added some months back. And of course WvW.

  • PioneerStewPioneerStew Member Posts: 874
    Originally posted by Vorch
    Originally posted by PioneerStew

    This is my issue as well.  For me GW1 was a far more innovative game than GW2 and it was quite unique with many interesting features.

    Then GW2 took all of those interesting features, removed them and turned the game into a fairly derivative mmo.  

    If developer's are going to use a template, please use GW1's as it will provide something a little different.   

    In GW1, people complained to death about skill capturing...so they added tomes/elite tomes.

    Caravan Vanquishing took hours. And Title grinding (which people like to forget added a statistical bonus) took days of play time. And I know people have experienced disconnects at the tail-end of a vanquish and having to start all over...

    People have also said that they loved GW1s exploration. I can't think of a single person in my guild, in chat, or basically in the game who loved getting Legendary Cartographer. It essentially *required* the use of a third party program to complete.

    And with 1300 skills (roughly 85-140 per profession) and dual classing, people like to say there was huge build variety. However, I played GW1 for 6 years (PvE, RA, AB, and JQ)...this build variety is greatly overstated. Did anyone ever bring Orison of Healing, the benchmark monk skill, on their bar? Never...they'd be kicked instantly.  If you're playing poker and get to choose the cards in your hand, you're not going to show 2s, 3s, and 4s. I personally vanquished the entire game with a cookie cutter Sabway + Mesmerway Team Build (didn't even need to talk to people, lol).

    By the end of my time playing GW1, my warrior had the same build as my necromancer, mesmer, and dervish. This wasn't out of the ordinary...it was the norm for farming and vanquishing. Could it be done differently? Yea, but again, why choose a pair of 3s when you can choose the Royal Flush every time?

    I loved GW1. I played for thousands of hours and don't regret a moment. But I always chuckle when build diversity, skill capturing, map completion, and vanquishing are listed as things in the plus column. Perhaps the REWARD for completing these tasks was worth it (I love my God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals title), but the tasks were very tedious. The most fun I had in GW1 was in my guild hall (which GW2 still lacks for some reason), farming during holidays, and just chatting.

     

    GW1 is a great game. I guess I'm just always surprised at what people now think was good about it today.

     

    /rant

     

    But this is only part of what was great about it.  

    • Going against what I normally look for in an mmo it had an immersive and continuous story and was heavily instanced.  This suited the game.  It was very linear, but created a superb sense of discovery as you progressed through the game and opened up new areas.  
    • Its level cap could be reached in a few hours (once Factions was released) but it did not matter.  It did not need the carrot of more and more levels to keep you playing because it was simply a lot of fun.  
    • Reaching the end of a campaign and unlocking armour skins, or running a zone to reach a hub and unlock those skins actually felt like an achievement.  
    • You could sell services like running people from hub to hub.  
    • Plus I enjoyed skill capping, dual classes, the free skill choice, the achievements which felt more an integral part of the game than vistas or jumping puzzles ever will.   
    • And the pvp was simply better.  

    What was great about GW1 was that it fundamentally did not try to be like every other mmo out there.  It was a unique game design.  

    What is wrong with GW2 is that it fundamentally tried to be like every other mmo out there but with a few "innovations" that just seem shoe-horned in for the purposes of appearing unique.   

     

  • elockeelocke Member UncommonPosts: 4,335

    GW2 would have been better served in having once character be all classes, similar to FFXIV or FFXI.  The way the leveling process works really encourages that type of build in character/leveling design.  But...they didn't.  I also NEVER want to see an MMO dumb it's endgame down to the point of giving me nothing to log in for the way GW2 has.  Where is the progression be it vertical or horizontal?  Where is the meta game?  Where is the housing and other fluff that immerses a player into a game world?  Living story and achievements are fun but the game needs more carrots for me to chase that aren't ONLY graphical in nature.

    Oh, and lack of Trinity play makes partying and dungeon running a nightmare and not fun at all, so that's another aspect to not mimic.  So yeah, no I wouldn't model any MMO after GW2, ever.

     
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,722
    Originally posted by Lunarpac

    I really liked the skill capture system from GW1 as well, I haven't seen that in recent MMOs.

    Regarding the trinity, I was playing a Guardian - drawing constant aggro from most mobs in the vicinity. Ultimately, I ran out of defensive cooldowns, and died. A lot. That was kinda tiresome in the end. It was a nice idea to circumvent the holy trinity, but the idea was poorly implemented imo. More incentive to pick different roles would be nice, as you say.

    i do agree that the roleless mechanic can be improved without locking specific roles to the game. Also, regarding the highlighted line, were you soloing or doing group content? In case of group content, if your group is leaving you on your own to hold all the aggro then they are doing it wrong. As a direct result of not being a trinity based game, active teamwork is more important to survive.

     

    But If you were soloing, then.... it happens to me too, it just takes practice with some builds. I stay alive longer with my mesmer than i do with my guardian.





  • SoandsosoSoandsoso Member Posts: 533
    Please do not use the most anti-social and transient game ever as a template.
  • LunarpacLunarpac Member UncommonPosts: 57
    Originally posted by galphar
    Originally posted by Lunarpac

    From my perspective, GW2 wasn't as different from the traditional questing model as some would have you believe. You still looked for the abovementioned hearts on the map, went there, fulfilled some sort of objective, and got a reward. Sure, there were certain tweaks compared to the traditional model, but nothing truly groundbreaking. GW2 was never the sandbox-model that it could have been. It was and will remain a themepark disguised as a sandbox. 

    GW2 was fun for a while, but a couple of things killed it for me:

    - Close to no item progression

    - Combat lacked structure (I missed the holy trinity)

    - Crafting was uninspired and dull

    - No traditional endgame

    Whether GW2 could serve as a template for the future, I hope not. I don't think anything should really serve as a template for other games. Imagine all the different kinds of games we could have had if designers wouldn't just copy-paste so much.

    I love how you complain that GW2 isn't "traditional" enough in certain areas and then go on to say you don't like designers who "copy-paste so much".

    You know, just because I like an existing model doesn't mean that that model is the best model conceivable for me. I like some traditional structures, but I'm disappointed in the fact that more models aren't explored, models that I may like even more than the current ones. Hope that makes sense to you. 

  • MazingerZMazingerZ Member UncommonPosts: 52

    God, I hope not.

    The end-game and monetization models are complete and utter shit.

  • The.agGThe.agG Member Posts: 119
    Originally posted by Soandsoso
    Please do not use the most anti-social and transient game ever as a template.

    I like how you claim this even though GW2 is known everywhere to have the best and friendliest MMO community. Just goes on to show even more how out of touch the users at mmorpg.com are with the MMO games in the market.

    One fine day, the people here will stop living in the past. Oh, who am i kidding....

  • PioneerStewPioneerStew Member Posts: 874
    Originally posted by The.agG
    Originally posted by Soandsoso
    Please do not use the most anti-social and transient game ever as a template.

    I like how you claim this even though GW2 is known everywhere to have the best MMO community.

    It certainly is not known for that here.  It is utterly anti-social.  

  • The.agGThe.agG Member Posts: 119
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by The.agG
    Originally posted by Soandsoso
    Please do not use the most anti-social and transient game ever as a template.

    I like how you claim this even though GW2 is known everywhere to have the best MMO community.

    It certainly is not known for that here.  It is utterly anti-social.  

    Anti-social here because the users here need social interactions to be forced on them.

    You ask anywhere else or just go log-in to the game, you will find how friendly and helpful the GW2 community is.

  • KalferKalfer Member Posts: 779
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by The.agG
    Originally posted by Soandsoso
    Please do not use the most anti-social and transient game ever as a template.

    I like how you claim this even though GW2 is known everywhere to have the best MMO community.

    It certainly is not known for that here.  It is utterly anti-social.  

    How GW2 is perceived by a vocal group here is not really like I have seen it being perceived elsewhere. 

     

     

    I would argue that it's one of the most social non-sandbox MMORPGs ever made. I think a lot of people are confused with the lack of chatting as an instigation to this, but I simply think this has more to do with that people are using the action combat, and that makes it harder to talk while fighting unlike a traditional MMOs combat would allow. 

  • AeonbladesAeonblades Member Posts: 2,083
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by The.agG
    Originally posted by Soandsoso
    Please do not use the most anti-social and transient game ever as a template.

    I like how you claim this even though GW2 is known everywhere to have the best MMO community.

    It certainly is not known for that here.  It is utterly anti-social.  

    It's definitely a more solo oriented game. Unless you actively try to establish some sort of dialogue through a guild, you can forget about social interaction in GW2. As another poster mentioned, I think the lack of social anything is due to the nature of action combat games in general. You can't type if you are trying to figure wizard your way out of a death :)

     

    Another poster mentioned the monetization and content was utter poopy....I don't really agree with that, some of the content has been good and worthwhile, but I do agree with the monetization. Keeping everything worthwhile locked behind a paywall rubs me the wrong way, and this game really forces it on you if you intend to do the Legendary weapon grind or get some special skins that can be purchased through gold.

     

    Anet has made no effort to control inflation and every day the game inches further and further into P2W territory due to the way the economy is laid out and uncontrolled. Something is wrong with your game when you can accomplish more by working in real life and converting that money into gold for your legendary quicker than if you were actually playing the game. Completely broken monetization. It's the same problem every other non sub game has, the entire game and all the content delivery is centered through a cash shop, which makes it "feel" cheap to me.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
    Have played: You name it
    If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  • zenkk1zenkk1 Member UncommonPosts: 2
    GW2 > Archeage (This game sucks, PW2)
  • aulora99aulora99 Member Posts: 4
    I don't understand why everyone is saying GW2 is anti-social. The only times I haven't seen anyone say anything are during off-peak hours when you have maybe just a handful of people on or in a certain area. The guild I joined is rather chatty, but I don't mind it because I'm not sitting in an area and just reading it. If I'm downing a mob and fighting for my life, I'm not going to sit there and respond to every question or comment being made.
  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860
    GW2s environment/combat mechanics, and WoWs gameplay in one game would be my pick. I'm tired of pve in WoW standing flatfooted and fighting mobs. A smarter UI like GW2s, and it's action combat make it an awesome game, and then coupled with everything that made WoW what it is would be something I would go for.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • LudwikLudwik Member UncommonPosts: 407
    Any sort of socializing going on in game is due to a lack of content. People talk to each other because there's nothing else to do.

    If you think the game's systems actually promote community building, you're delusional.
  • caetftlcaetftl Member Posts: 358
    The game had an awful retention rate... please use it as a template... also make sure to always write only positive articles about the game...
  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by The.agG
    Originally posted by Soandsoso
    Please do not use the most anti-social and transient game ever as a template.

    I like how you claim this even though GW2 is known everywhere to have the best MMO community.

    It certainly is not known for that here.  It is utterly anti-social.  

    It's definitely a more solo oriented game. Unless you actively try to establish some sort of dialogue through a guild, you can forget about social interaction in GW2. As another poster mentioned, I think the lack of social anything is due to the nature of action combat games in general. You can't type if you are trying to figure wizard your way out of a death :)

    Nope. Just learn to use map chat and say something more interesting than "good morning" people. 

     

    Another poster mentioned the monetization and content was utter poopy....I don't really agree with that, some of the content has been good and worthwhile, but I do agree with the monetization. Keeping everything worthwhile locked behind a paywall rubs me the wrong way, and this game really forces it on you if you intend to do the Legendary weapon grind or get some special skins that can be purchased through gold.

    Do explain me how the game makes you pay for legendary weapons. Because I have 2 and even though I've payed money to support the devs, not a single cent from these money went into obtaining legendary. What are you blahblahing about <o> 

     

    Anet has made no effort to control inflation and every day the game inches further and further into P2W territory due to the way the economy is laid out and uncontrolled. Something is wrong with your game when you can accomplish more by working in real life and converting that money into gold for your legendary quicker than if you were actually playing the game. Completely broken monetization. It's the same problem every other non sub game has, the entire game and all the content delivery is centered through a cash shop, which makes it "feel" cheap to me.

    Are you just generally sad that you can't make legendary or we discussing game issues here? Some times that were being sold for 1 bronze are now worth few silver BECAUSE of the ascended tier which made them valuable, but in no way less farmable. If you are talking about precursors, well you got that right. More and more people hit lvl 80 and figure that they want legendary but the RNG about is just as tight, the rate was 1:300 in the mystic forge the last time a test was made and probably more than 10 times lesser in in world event encounters. The prices of precursors are high because of undersupply, not because ANet cannot do inflation control. Destroying the prices of precursors would simply mean increasing the chances of dropping. The people that have been playing since launch like me have few thousand gold regardless so. I really have no idea what to spend it on rather than getting gems for it and some cool looking skins, honestly.

     

  • BailoPan15BailoPan15 Member Posts: 410
    Originally posted by Ludwik
    Any sort of socializing going on in game is due to a lack of content. People talk to each other because there's nothing else to do. If you think the game's systems actually promote community building, you're delusional.

    If you think forced socialization is the way to go, you're the one that's being delusional here. Also people at WvW are quite chatty, in the good way even when you are team red

  • observerobserver Member RarePosts: 3,685

    Some of you are going off-topic in this article, by citing other aspects of GW2 that you dislike.

    This article is specifically talking about the first few hours of the game, by discussing how the player is introduced with Heart Quests, and how it differs from other MMOs.

    In other MMOs, you are introduced with linear progression right at the start, and are bombarded with quest hubs with the infamous exclamation point (!).

    GW2 does this too somewhat, but it's very different.  There are multiple objectives of Heart Quests, and they don't require you to run across the map to complete them.  They are confined in the same area.  Archeage actually has multiple objectives for a few of their quests too, which was a good thing, but it still felt too tradtional with their quest hubs.

    GW2 also got rid of the "accept/decline" aspect of questing.  You no longer have to interact with the NPC to accept a quest.  There are exceptions though.  For instance, you only really have to interact with an NPC, when you need to turn in quest items that you gather.

    Overall though, GW2 could've been better served without Heart Quests.  I remember during launch, people were saying it was another "wow-clone-themepark" because of Heart Quests, even though they weren't required at all.  Archeage does the same thing, and that's why it deserves the scorn of players that are fed up with the linear "exclamation-point" quest hubs.

  • Eir_SEir_S Member UncommonPosts: 4,440

    GW2 has already influenced devs, it's obvious even in WoW.  Practically the entire working mechanic behind Timeless Isle was ripped from GW2.  Shared mobs, timed events, etc.  I don't know or care about the hearts/exclamation points.  Leave them in for people who want them, but I have to disagree with the guy saying they should use AA for a template.  The quests are extremely boring and tacked on and the game was showing its age before it even went into beta.

    EVE bored me too, but at least it went in a far off direction from the norm and I can appreciate that.  AA's devs didn't try hard enough to get me to care.

  • AsamofAsamof Member UncommonPosts: 824

    I love guild wars 2, but in the end I can't shake the feeling of it being a fake or plastic MMO. It always has me subbing to a real MMO in the end, since it doesn't satisfy that itch.

     

    also, too many design decisions based around 'being different!' instead of good game design. meh

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