Originally posted by Aeonblades I'd say it's working as intended. The entire cash shop is based around not so much P2W, but P2Shortcut. With the rate of inflation versus the amount of rewards you can earn in the same time in game, it's been proven that working at a minimum wage job and then turning the cash into gold is a much quicker way to advance in GW2. You can farm literally hundreds of gold by using the cash shop in the same time it would take you to earn a couple of dozen as an actual player playing the game the way it was meant to be played. It's a huge incentive for new players, returning players, etc. to spend money to "catch up" to people who have been playing since release. I think it makes them a pretty penny.
Shortcut what exactly? By the time you hit 80 on a character, unless you've spent every single dime you've made in game, you'll have enough gold and laurels to get yourself a full set of exotics and ascended jewelry. If you've done the various types of WvW for leveling (edge of the mists is a wonderful xp train) you'll have enough badges to get a full set of exotic armor+weapons and have enough laurels to get ascended jewelry.
Ascended Armor is marginally better at best, and there isn't really a reason to get it, unless you are just really wanting to be a completionist. The Legendary Weapons aren't statistically better either, but rather they have a unique look and are a potential future proof weapon if ANet adds another tier of weapons that are better that the current exotics.
There isn't a reason to spend a single dime in the Cash Shop aside from cosmetics or to unlock things like additional character slots, etc. Hell, unless you're saving to buy a legendary weapon, there's little reason to have more than two hundred gold on hand, unless you want to buy the expensive stuff off the AH which is nothing but cosmetic anyhow.
There isn't really anything to "catch up" to.
Well if the point of GW2 is cosmetics in lieu of gear, gold goes a long way to getting your character the look you want. Anet made GW2 all about cosmetic progression rather than vertical progression, which while isn't necessarily a bad thing, they lock 90% of it behind a thick and meaty pay wall. It's the same model every other F2P/freemium game uses, instead of buying power, you buy a backpack with wings :P.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Originally posted by Foomerang The way they marketed their pay model pre launch made it sound like they were going to prove you can run a quality mmo off a box price and no subs. The reality is what they did was basically what f2p games already do minus the box price. /golfclap
I feel like you are underselling everything they have accomplishment over the last two years with such a massive team of 350 people rolling out significant content releases every 14th day. It seems to me to be larger in scope than anything else I have seen added to a game.
No, what Im saying is that for over two years before the game launched, their marketing strategy was to demonize subs and claim that they could run a quality mmo off of the box price. Then the "gem shop" slowly made its appearance and now we are seeing that it was setup like a f2p game all along. Except for the fact that f2p had already been proven to be successful at running an mmo for years before gw2 launched. So all they really did was slap a box price on top of an already profitable and long proven business model. All the while trying to sell us on the idea that they were shaking up the system.
They sold most aspects of their game this way. Misdirection and demonizing whatever was in other games that they didnt have or do.
Thats exactly my point that started this thread...
cashshop only is not an option for an MMO, they are just way to expensive to create and to keep running.... 350 people on your daily paybill is a lot ....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
In the initial conference calls by NCSoft (the audio ones) and the initial talk of Anet seemed to point to Expansion boxes arriving at regular times (slower than Guild Wars 1 though).
But the revenues generated by the cash shop were higher than expected allowing them to maintain a decently sized Live Team.
About the 350+ Anet workers (that keeps increasing).
At an average of $100K/year per employee ($60K for the employee, $40K paid by the company in taxes, health plans, etc in behalf of the employee) that would result in $35M/year in wages.
I'm not sure if Anet owns their own offices, but lets say they don't. Lets add some $15-20M in rent, utility bills and business trips.
The whole studio costs between $50-55M year while generating double of that.
Also note that part of the studio is generating future content that is expected to generate revenue, so it is an investment instead of an expense if it pans out.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Originally posted by Foomerang The way they marketed their pay model pre launch made it sound like they were going to prove you can run a quality mmo off a box price and no subs. The reality is what they did was basically what f2p games already do minus the box price. /golfclap
I feel like you are underselling everything they have accomplishment over the last two years with such a massive team of 350 people rolling out significant content releases every 14th day. It seems to me to be larger in scope than anything else I have seen added to a game.
No, what Im saying is that for over two years before the game launched, their marketing strategy was to demonize subs and claim that they could run a quality mmo off of the box price. Then the "gem shop" slowly made its appearance and now we are seeing that it was setup like a f2p game all along. Except for the fact that f2p had already been proven to be successful at running an mmo for years before gw2 launched. So all they really did was slap a box price on top of an already profitable and long proven business model. All the while trying to sell us on the idea that they were shaking up the system.
They sold most aspects of their game this way. Misdirection and demonizing whatever was in other games that they didnt have or do.
hmmm, I am a bit confused. I might be remember it wrong but;
1) I don't think they ever demonized monthly fees? Didn't they mearly say that they could do it? Skeptics denounced Guild Wars 1, saying it was not a real MMORPG, and that was why it had no monthly fee. They went out and said they could make a quality MMO without adding a monthly fee. One which had all the trappings and systems that Guild Wars 1 lacked.
I have never read an interview with ArenaNet employees being disrespectful towards other MMOs!
2) I could be wrong, but didn't they announce their intentions with the cash shop years before it came out? I vaguely remember discussions on GW2Guru about that subject and speculation years ago. Many people felt they would end up selling p2w strength items.
3) The breath of content and features they have added far exceeds what I have seen from any MMORPGs in it's two first year of release, both in terms of fundamental gameplay systems, to customization options to back end features. It doesn't seem comparable to any free 2 play game I have seen.
Not only that, everything in the store is attainable by in-game currency, something many games dont give you the option to do, a few does, but the majority of F2P games I reckon.
Originally posted by Kalfer Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by KalferOriginally posted by Foomerang The way they marketed their pay model pre launch made it sound like they were going to prove you can run a quality mmo off a box price and no subs. The reality is what they did was basically what f2p games already do minus the box price. /golfclap
I feel like you are underselling everything they have accomplishment over the last two years with such a massive team of 350 people rolling out significant content releases every 14th day. It seems to me to be larger in scope than anything else I have seen added to a game. No, what Im saying is that for over two years before the game launched, their marketing strategy was to demonize subs and claim that they could run a quality mmo off of the box price. Then the "gem shop" slowly made its appearance and now we are seeing that it was setup like a f2p game all along. Except for the fact that f2p had already been proven to be successful at running an mmo for years before gw2 launched. So all they really did was slap a box price on top of an already profitable and long proven business model. All the while trying to sell us on the idea that they were shaking up the system.They sold most aspects of their game this way. Misdirection and demonizing whatever was in other games that they didnt have or do.
hmmm, I am a bit confused. I might be remember it wrong but;
1) I don't think they ever demonized monthly fees? Didn't they mearly say that they could do it? Skeptics denounced Guild Wars 1, saying it was not a real MMORPG, and that was why it had no monthly fee. They went out and said they could make a quality MMO without adding a monthly fee. One which had all the trappings and systems that Guild Wars 1 lacked.
I have never read an interview with ArenaNet employees being disrespectful towards other MMOs!
2) I could be wrong, but didn't they announce their intentions with the cash shop years before it came out? I vaguely remember discussions on GW2Guru about that subject and speculation years ago. Many people felt they would end up selling p2w strength items.
3) The breath of content and features they have added far exceeds what I have seen from any MMORPGs in it's two first year of release, both in terms of fundamental gameplay systems, to customization options to back end features. It doesn't seem comparable to any free 2 play game I have seen.
Not only that, everything in the store is attainable by in-game currency, something many games dont give you the option to do, a few does, but the majority of F2P games I reckon.
In the initial conference calls by NCSoft (the audio ones) and the initial talk of Anet seemed to point to Expansion boxes arriving at regular times (slower than Guild Wars 1 though).
But the revenues generated by the cash shop were higher than expected allowing them to maintain a decently sized Live Team.
About the 350+ Anet workers (that keeps increasing).
At an average of $100K/year per employee ($60K for the employee, $40K paid by the company in taxes, health plans, etc in behalf of the employee) that would result in $35M/year in wages.
I'm not sure if Anet owns their own offices, but lets say they don't. Lets add some $15-20M in rent, utility bills and business trips.
The whole studio costs between $50-55M year while generating double of that.
Also note that part of the studio is generating future content that is expected to generate revenue, so it is an investment instead of an expense if it pans out.
Asuming your estimates are correct, there indeed seems to be a very healthy buiseness model..
so whats keeping them from releasing more content?
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus Originally posted by Gaia_HunterThe premise for this thread is false.The game as it current revenue rates makes something like $100M+ every year.Boxes alone were $150M+. The game total revenue is around $300M+ since launch.All that information can be found on the NCSoft financial calls.http://www.ncsoft.net/global/ir/earnings.aspxIn the initial conference calls by NCSoft (the audio ones) and the initial talk of Anet seemed to point to Expansion boxes arriving at regular times (slower than Guild Wars 1 though).But the revenues generated by the cash shop were higher than expected allowing them to maintain a decently sized Live Team.About the 350+ Anet workers (that keeps increasing).At an average of $100K/year per employee ($60K for the employee, $40K paid by the company in taxes, health plans, etc in behalf of the employee) that would result in $35M/year in wages.I'm not sure if Anet owns their own offices, but lets say they don't. Lets add some $15-20M in rent, utility bills and business trips.The whole studio costs between $50-55M year while generating double of that.Also note that part of the studio is generating future content that is expected to generate revenue, so it is an investment instead of an expense if it pans out.
Asuming your estimates are correct, there indeed seems to be a very healthy buiseness model..
so whats keeping them from releasing more content?
They are probably investing in their other games, or new games, or paying old debts. Or the ceo makes 50 million bucks a year and thats where the rest goes.
Asuming your estimates are correct, there indeed seems to be a very healthy buiseness model..
so whats keeping them from releasing more content?
They have released new content? Even though a lot of the first season was temporary stuff, it's not like you program temporary stuff faster than permanent stuff. And they're working on some bigger stuff that hasn't come out yet. You'll find out relatively soon.
Also, you have to remember that Arenanet doesn't get all the money, most of it goes to NCSoft, and the shareholders. z.z
The way they marketed their pay model pre launch made it sound like they were going to prove you can run a quality mmo off a box price and no subs. The reality is what they did was basically what f2p games already do minus the box price. /golfclap
Eh, that isn't totally true.
1. AAA Western games don't launch F2P, they generally turn into it. Of course anybody can release some small scale F2P game, or convert to it later, but their point was that they could start off a full scale AAA MMORPG as B2P, which is exactly what they did.
2. A lot of the games that do show up as F2P are horrifyingly P2W. GW2 has a pretty non-invasive cash shop, you absolutely 100% don't need anything in it to play, and do well. Most of my guild is full of cheap bastards who don't get anything from the cash shop unless they get it for gold.
3. They always said it was going to be box price + cash shop. They had a cash shop in GW1. You might be remembering things wrong!
4. F2P models have been getting better the past few years. Not all of them, but some. EQN is planning on coming out F2P. As long as they keep out P2W, I'm all for MMORPGs starting off B2P or F2P. And I don't mean this newstyle 'P2W is any time you spend money', but good old fashioned 'You are going to win and kick everybody's ass because you spent money, unlike the losers who didn't'.
Originally posted by Meowhead Originally posted by Foomerang The way they marketed their pay model pre launch made it sound like they were going to prove you can run a quality mmo off a box price and no subs. The reality is what they did was basically what f2p games already do minus the box price. /golfclap
Eh, that isn't totally true.
1. AAA Western games don't launch F2P, they generally turn into it. Of course anybody can release some small scale F2P game, or convert to it later, but their point was that they could start off a full scale AAA MMORPG as B2P, which is exactly what they did.
2. A lot of the games that do show up as F2P are horrifyingly P2W. GW2 has a pretty non-invasive cash shop, you absolutely 100% don't need anything in it to play, and do well. Most of my guild is full of cheap bastards who don't get anything from the cash shop unless they get it for gold.
3. They always said it was going to be box price + cash shop. They had a cash shop in GW1. You might be remembering things wrong!
4. F2P models have been getting better the past few years. Not all of them, but some. EQN is planning on coming out F2P. As long as they keep out P2W, I'm all for MMORPGs starting off B2P or F2P. And I don't mean this newstyle 'P2W is any time you spend money', but good old fashioned 'You are going to win and kick everybody's ass because you spent money, unlike the losers who didn't'.
eh, I dont really care how much you like this game or whatever comparisons to other f2p style cash shops or pay to win. Thats not even what I was talking about at all. Im talking about how the game was marketed to us for the years leading up to launch. The game was presented to us as buy to play. It was definitely not marketed to us as a buy to play with an optional cash shop. The cash shop was a tiny little foot note that slowly grew as launch came nearer. And then when the game launched people freaked out because it was straight up lottery style cash shop where you spent money for just a chance to actually get something you wanted. And pre launch it was all about how anet is going to prove that you can run an mmo without the evil subscription model. Yeah they sure did, with a big fat asterisk that said *rng cash shop. SO technically they proved what they said, in a misdirectional, double talk sorta way. and thats why they got the /golfclap from me. The game is pretty great and is a much needed addition to the mmo library. Like i said, I could give two shits about the game itself in regards to this topic. Im talking about the image of this game that was created through buzzwords and lies by omission. The devs were just playing along, I dont blame them. It was the decisions of how to market this game that I have a problem with.
eh, I dont really care how much you like this game or whatever comparisons to other f2p style cash shops or pay to win. Thats not even what I was talking about at all. Im talking about how the game was marketed to us for the years leading up to launch. The game was presented to us as buy to play. It was definitely not marketed to us as a buy to play with an optional cash shop. The cash shop was a tiny little foot note that slowly grew as launch came nearer. And then when the game launched people freaked out because it was straight up lottery style cash shop where you spent money for just a chance to actually get something you wanted. And pre launch it was all about how anet is going to prove that you can run an mmo without the evil subscription model. Yeah they sure did, with a big fat asterisk that said *rng cash shop. SO technically they proved what they said, in a misdirectional, double talk sorta way. and thats why they got the /golfclap from me. The game is pretty great and is a much needed addition to the mmo library. Like i said, I could give two shits about the game itself in regards to this topic. Im talking about the image of this game that was created through buzzwords and lies by omission. The devs were just playing along, I dont blame them. It was the decisions of how to market this game that I have a problem with.
Hate to always agree with you, stop making so much sense... :P
The whole buy 2 play facade is quite annoying, this game does not in anyway survive off of box sales alone, just as any typical F2P, they need those CS sales.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Game should have focussed on what it supposed to be dynamic events in open world not dungeons runs.
Also should have kept the difficulty as it was in first beta weekend.
Reasons i quit was dumb down so it was easy and dungeon grind and result empty world.
Ive played beta weekends which where great and 5 months into launched game. But when world was empty and only saw people running mist dungeon i quit.
Shame i liked GW2 and thought it was great looking diverse game world one of the best under water worlds and combats(which btw also so many complained about sadly) no i won't ever comeback.
I still have my charr statue standing here. Yes i payed 150 euros for collectors edition only because i realy believed in this game but was betrayed by devs and gamers who only whined and complain result dumb down and grind dungeons which i hate.
Now i don't believe in MMO'S anymore sadly:(
And what does this have to do with the ops question?
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Well it doesn't require you to spend, and you cant p2w.
However, one thing that I never realized is that cosmetic cash shops would ruin development of the game. So much effort of the programmers that they have not done anything to advance game play over the last 18 months.
eh, I dont really care how much you like this game or whatever comparisons to other f2p style cash shops or pay to win. Thats not even what I was talking about at all. Im talking about how the game was marketed to us for the years leading up to launch. The game was presented to us as buy to play. It was definitely not marketed to us as a buy to play with an optional cash shop. The cash shop was a tiny little foot note that slowly grew as launch came nearer. And then when the game launched people freaked out because it was straight up lottery style cash shop where you spent money for just a chance to actually get something you wanted. And pre launch it was all about how anet is going to prove that you can run an mmo without the evil subscription model. Yeah they sure did, with a big fat asterisk that said *rng cash shop. SO technically they proved what they said, in a misdirectional, double talk sorta way. and thats why they got the /golfclap from me. The game is pretty great and is a much needed addition to the mmo library. Like i said, I could give two shits about the game itself in regards to this topic. Im talking about the image of this game that was created through buzzwords and lies by omission. The devs were just playing along, I dont blame them. It was the decisions of how to market this game that I have a problem with.
That's weird, because I always knew it was B2P with an optional cash shop. ._. Maybe I'm just better at reading behind the lines, because I was never 'oh fuck I didn't see that coming, where did that come from?'. Though I've noticed that holds true with a lot of GW2 things, where people are like 'I thought it'd be this, and it wasn't', and I never thought it'd be that.
You can even find my older posts, and I even say things like the reasons I'm most hyped for it is ease of playing with friends (Still true, and still my number one requirement for MMOs), and that it's B2P with an optional cash shop and nothing you need.
Maybe I just had different expectations and understanding though. Even my really old posts on things like GW2Guru talk about the cash shop and how I'm fine with it as long as it isn't bad. Anybody who didn't see the cash shop coming is easily blinded though.
Maybe it WAS marketed that way, or in a way where people could assume that, and I just didn't notice. But it still seems weird to me that people think so, because I didn't take it that way.
Originally posted by Meowhead Originally posted by Foomerang eh, I dont really care how much you like this game or whatever comparisons to other f2p style cash shops or pay to win. Thats not even what I was talking about at all. Im talking about how the game was marketed to us for the years leading up to launch. The game was presented to us as buy to play. It was definitely not marketed to us as a buy to play with an optional cash shop. The cash shop was a tiny little foot note that slowly grew as launch came nearer. And then when the game launched people freaked out because it was straight up lottery style cash shop where you spent money for just a chance to actually get something you wanted. And pre launch it was all about how anet is going to prove that you can run an mmo without the evil subscription model. Yeah they sure did, with a big fat asterisk that said *rng cash shop. SO technically they proved what they said, in a misdirectional, double talk sorta way. and thats why they got the /golfclap from me. The game is pretty great and is a much needed addition to the mmo library. Like i said, I could give two shits about the game itself in regards to this topic. Im talking about the image of this game that was created through buzzwords and lies by omission. The devs were just playing along, I dont blame them. It was the decisions of how to market this game that I have a problem with.
That's weird, because I always knew it was B2P with an optional cash shop. ._. Maybe I'm just better at reading behind the lines, because I was never 'oh fuck I didn't see that coming, where did that come from?'. Though I've noticed that holds true with a lot of GW2 things, where people are like 'I thought it'd be this, and it wasn't', and I never thought it'd be that.
You can even find my older posts, and I even say things like the reasons I'm most hyped for it is ease of playing with friends (Still true, and still my number one requirement for MMOs), and that it's B2P with an optional cash shop and nothing you need.
Maybe I just had different expectations and understanding though. Even my really old posts on things like GW2Guru talk about the cash shop and how I'm fine with it as long as it isn't bad. Anybody who didn't see the cash shop coming is easily blinded though. D:
Maybe it WAS marketed that way, or in a way where people could assume that, and I just didn't notice. But it still seems weird to me that people think so, because I didn't take it that way.
good lord /facepalm
we all knew it had a cash shop. Im talking about how it was MARKETED. MARKETED. MAR-KEH-TED-UH
we all knew it had a cash shop. Im talking about how it was MARKETED. MARKETED. MAR-KEH-TED-UH
lol jesus
RIGHT, and I'm saying that I don't particularly remember it being marketed as not having a cash shop!
And then I said =that might just be me=.
I can't remember what the marketing is like, just what I knew. And I knew it had a cash shop. So whatever marketing they had didn't work on me?
This is purely anecdotal on BOTH our parts, since neither of us have actually linked Arenanet marketing where they're making it sound like there will be no cash shop, but I actually said I'm willing to believe that you're right and they did it in a way where people could get that understanding. Thoug hI'd kind of like to see that link, because if we all knew there was going to be a cash shop, then how was it marketed that there would not be?
I do know that anybody who believes things based off of marketing should probably break that habit though. :c Because there was definitely real information that one could easily access that said there was a cash shop.
Originally posted by Thupli Well it doesn't require you to spend, and you cant p2w.
However, one thing that I never realized is that cosmetic cash shops would ruin development of the game. So much effort of the programmers that they have not done anything to advance game play over the last 18 months.
Huh? It is the only game I know of that adds continuous content at least every 2 weeks. How much more advance game play do you want?
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Content isn't the same as game play. Game play is skills, bug fixes, game mode improvements, etc.
LS and cosmetic skins is all GW2 has keeping it alive at the moment.
I like the LS, bit lets not pretend that it is "loads of content". It is some, and I am thankful for it, but new weapon sets for each class would keep me going foe Months.
but LS and cosmetic skins sap all of the dev time to make any game play changes like what I am interested in.
Originally posted by Thupli Content isn't the same as game play. Game play is skills, bug fixes, game mode improvements, etc.
LS and cosmetic skins is all GW2 has keeping it alive at the moment.
I like the LS, bit lets not pretend that it is "loads of content". It is some, and I am thankful for it, but new weapon sets for each class would keep me going foe Months.
but LS and cosmetic skins sap all of the dev time to make any game play changes like what I am interested in.
Uhm... what?
Content is any consumable experience you add into a game. This can be LS, this can be Jumping Puzzles, this can be hats, this can be new crafting recipes, or new dance emotes. It doesn't matter how small or large a thing is, if it's an experience being added to a game, it's content. Regardless of whether or not it's the content you personally want.
Originally posted by aesperus Originally posted by Thupli Content isn't the same as game play. Game play is skills, bug fixes, game mode improvements, etc. LS and cosmetic skins is all GW2 has keeping it alive at the moment. I like the LS, bit lets not pretend that it is "loads of content". It is some, and I am thankful for it, but new weapon sets for each class would keep me going foe Months. but LS and cosmetic skins sap all of the dev time to make any game play changes like what I am interested in.
Uhm... what?
Content is any consumable experience you add into a game. This can be LS, this can be Jumping Puzzles, this can be hats, this can be new crafting recipes, or new dance emotes. It doesn't matter how small or large a thing is, if it's an experience being added to a game, it's content. Regardless of whether or not it's the content you personally want.
story is context, not content. but that is another debate altogether hehe.
Originally posted by Thupli Content isn't the same as game play. Game play is skills, bug fixes, game mode improvements, etc.
LS and cosmetic skins is all GW2 has keeping it alive at the moment.
I like the LS, bit lets not pretend that it is "loads of content". It is some, and I am thankful for it, but new weapon sets for each class would keep me going foe Months.
but LS and cosmetic skins sap all of the dev time to make any game play changes like what I am interested in.
Guild Missions, Fractals of the Mists, Edge of the Mists, Tequatl, Aetherblade Hidden Base, Triple Wurm, there is a lot of permanent stuff here, that is not connected to the living story, but just "game play" as you say.
If you combine this with the efforts they have made over the last two years to make the base game better - People wanted more value out of their skins and their dyes, so they made everything account-wide and shared between all your characters, even retroactively. They made a Wardrobe system, they created a luck salvaging system, they made an observer mode, they added ladders, they added WvW tournaments, they created a Achievement reward system, they overhauled all champion bosses in the game aswell and created many new skins. They have almost doubled the amount of hairstyles and faces for the races, and added a significant amount of new dyes as well. They created an accout wide wallet for all currencies to make it more friendly, and they developed a new tier of top gear call ascended with it's own path for creating.
Then there is all the activity mini games and all the holiday events that come back. And Super Adventure Box. Things like this are a easy to forget. They are not what you think about when you think about the Living Story, but there actually has been a lot of stuff added.
I think feature wise it has taken a lot of them for them to fix culling, the serious performance implication of having so many players fighting in WvW and the entire debacle of the gold sellers and bots which almost brought down the game after it came out. And then the Megaserver. I am sure that all these things took up a lot of their time. But I think it was the right thing to do.
It was the right choice to fix some of the fundamental problems. And GW2 is not out of the woods yet. sPvP is much better with the new reward tracks, but it's not where it needs to be. The base dungeons are not were they need to be either, and the game could benefit from some additional meta PvE gameplay system in the current zones.
^^ is a fair assessment. I would add that if you compare what wow has offered in the last year or so (at the cost of £100+). And compare against what guild wars 2 who offers free gaming then GW2 simply blows wow out of the water. For a free to play model it is simply outstanding and a credit to the lack of greed by the dev/publishers. I particularly like how they have restructures season 2 stories in response to feedback - that takes investment to pull off.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Asuming your estimates are correct, there indeed seems to be a very healthy buiseness model..
so whats keeping them from releasing more content?
I expect that the China release was a part of it. After all it only released there 15th of May and it seems Anet wants to keep the different versions in sync.
Other aspect might be the question on how to release the new content - free, as dlc, boxed expansion, etc - maximizing their profit.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
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Well if the point of GW2 is cosmetics in lieu of gear, gold goes a long way to getting your character the look you want. Anet made GW2 all about cosmetic progression rather than vertical progression, which while isn't necessarily a bad thing, they lock 90% of it behind a thick and meaty pay wall. It's the same model every other F2P/freemium game uses, instead of buying power, you buy a backpack with wings :P.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Thats exactly my point that started this thread...
cashshop only is not an option for an MMO, they are just way to expensive to create and to keep running.... 350 people on your daily paybill is a lot ....
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
The premise for this thread is false.
The game as it current revenue rates makes something like $100M+ every year.
Boxes alone were $150M+. The game total revenue is around $300M+ since launch.
All that information can be found on the NCSoft financial calls.
http://www.ncsoft.net/global/ir/earnings.aspx
In the initial conference calls by NCSoft (the audio ones) and the initial talk of Anet seemed to point to Expansion boxes arriving at regular times (slower than Guild Wars 1 though).
But the revenues generated by the cash shop were higher than expected allowing them to maintain a decently sized Live Team.
About the 350+ Anet workers (that keeps increasing).
At an average of $100K/year per employee ($60K for the employee, $40K paid by the company in taxes, health plans, etc in behalf of the employee) that would result in $35M/year in wages.
I'm not sure if Anet owns their own offices, but lets say they don't. Lets add some $15-20M in rent, utility bills and business trips.
The whole studio costs between $50-55M year while generating double of that.
Also note that part of the studio is generating future content that is expected to generate revenue, so it is an investment instead of an expense if it pans out.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
hmmm, I am a bit confused. I might be remember it wrong but;
1) I don't think they ever demonized monthly fees? Didn't they mearly say that they could do it? Skeptics denounced Guild Wars 1, saying it was not a real MMORPG, and that was why it had no monthly fee. They went out and said they could make a quality MMO without adding a monthly fee. One which had all the trappings and systems that Guild Wars 1 lacked.
I have never read an interview with ArenaNet employees being disrespectful towards other MMOs!
2) I could be wrong, but didn't they announce their intentions with the cash shop years before it came out? I vaguely remember discussions on GW2Guru about that subject and speculation years ago. Many people felt they would end up selling p2w strength items.
3) The breath of content and features they have added far exceeds what I have seen from any MMORPGs in it's two first year of release, both in terms of fundamental gameplay systems, to customization options to back end features. It doesn't seem comparable to any free 2 play game I have seen.
Not only that, everything in the store is attainable by in-game currency, something many games dont give you the option to do, a few does, but the majority of F2P games I reckon.
No, what Im saying is that for over two years before the game launched, their marketing strategy was to demonize subs and claim that they could run a quality mmo off of the box price. Then the "gem shop" slowly made its appearance and now we are seeing that it was setup like a f2p game all along. Except for the fact that f2p had already been proven to be successful at running an mmo for years before gw2 launched. So all they really did was slap a box price on top of an already profitable and long proven business model. All the while trying to sell us on the idea that they were shaking up the system. They sold most aspects of their game this way. Misdirection and demonizing whatever was in other games that they didnt have or do.
hmmm, I am a bit confused. I might be remember it wrong but;
1) I don't think they ever demonized monthly fees? Didn't they mearly say that they could do it? Skeptics denounced Guild Wars 1, saying it was not a real MMORPG, and that was why it had no monthly fee. They went out and said they could make a quality MMO without adding a monthly fee. One which had all the trappings and systems that Guild Wars 1 lacked.
I have never read an interview with ArenaNet employees being disrespectful towards other MMOs!
2) I could be wrong, but didn't they announce their intentions with the cash shop years before it came out? I vaguely remember discussions on GW2Guru about that subject and speculation years ago. Many people felt they would end up selling p2w strength items.
3) The breath of content and features they have added far exceeds what I have seen from any MMORPGs in it's two first year of release, both in terms of fundamental gameplay systems, to customization options to back end features. It doesn't seem comparable to any free 2 play game I have seen.
Not only that, everything in the store is attainable by in-game currency, something many games dont give you the option to do, a few does, but the majority of F2P games I reckon.
That's fine.
Asuming your estimates are correct, there indeed seems to be a very healthy buiseness model..
so whats keeping them from releasing more content?
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
so whats keeping them from releasing more content?
They are probably investing in their other games, or new games, or paying old debts. Or the ceo makes 50 million bucks a year and thats where the rest goes.
They have released new content? Even though a lot of the first season was temporary stuff, it's not like you program temporary stuff faster than permanent stuff. And they're working on some bigger stuff that hasn't come out yet. You'll find out relatively soon.
Also, you have to remember that Arenanet doesn't get all the money, most of it goes to NCSoft, and the shareholders. z.z
Eh, that isn't totally true.
1. AAA Western games don't launch F2P, they generally turn into it. Of course anybody can release some small scale F2P game, or convert to it later, but their point was that they could start off a full scale AAA MMORPG as B2P, which is exactly what they did.
2. A lot of the games that do show up as F2P are horrifyingly P2W. GW2 has a pretty non-invasive cash shop, you absolutely 100% don't need anything in it to play, and do well. Most of my guild is full of cheap bastards who don't get anything from the cash shop unless they get it for gold.
3. They always said it was going to be box price + cash shop. They had a cash shop in GW1. You might be remembering things wrong!
4. F2P models have been getting better the past few years. Not all of them, but some. EQN is planning on coming out F2P. As long as they keep out P2W, I'm all for MMORPGs starting off B2P or F2P. And I don't mean this newstyle 'P2W is any time you spend money', but good old fashioned 'You are going to win and kick everybody's ass because you spent money, unlike the losers who didn't'.
1. AAA Western games don't launch F2P, they generally turn into it. Of course anybody can release some small scale F2P game, or convert to it later, but their point was that they could start off a full scale AAA MMORPG as B2P, which is exactly what they did.
2. A lot of the games that do show up as F2P are horrifyingly P2W. GW2 has a pretty non-invasive cash shop, you absolutely 100% don't need anything in it to play, and do well. Most of my guild is full of cheap bastards who don't get anything from the cash shop unless they get it for gold.
3. They always said it was going to be box price + cash shop. They had a cash shop in GW1. You might be remembering things wrong!
4. F2P models have been getting better the past few years. Not all of them, but some. EQN is planning on coming out F2P. As long as they keep out P2W, I'm all for MMORPGs starting off B2P or F2P. And I don't mean this newstyle 'P2W is any time you spend money', but good old fashioned 'You are going to win and kick everybody's ass because you spent money, unlike the losers who didn't'.
eh, I dont really care how much you like this game or whatever comparisons to other f2p style cash shops or pay to win. Thats not even what I was talking about at all. Im talking about how the game was marketed to us for the years leading up to launch. The game was presented to us as buy to play. It was definitely not marketed to us as a buy to play with an optional cash shop. The cash shop was a tiny little foot note that slowly grew as launch came nearer. And then when the game launched people freaked out because it was straight up lottery style cash shop where you spent money for just a chance to actually get something you wanted.
And pre launch it was all about how anet is going to prove that you can run an mmo without the evil subscription model. Yeah they sure did, with a big fat asterisk that said *rng cash shop.
SO technically they proved what they said, in a misdirectional, double talk sorta way. and thats why they got the /golfclap from me.
The game is pretty great and is a much needed addition to the mmo library. Like i said, I could give two shits about the game itself in regards to this topic. Im talking about the image of this game that was created through buzzwords and lies by omission. The devs were just playing along, I dont blame them. It was the decisions of how to market this game that I have a problem with.
Hate to always agree with you, stop making so much sense... :P
The whole buy 2 play facade is quite annoying, this game does not in anyway survive off of box sales alone, just as any typical F2P, they need those CS sales.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And what does this have to do with the ops question?
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
However, one thing that I never realized is that cosmetic cash shops would ruin development of the game. So much effort of the programmers that they have not done anything to advance game play over the last 18 months.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
That's weird, because I always knew it was B2P with an optional cash shop. ._. Maybe I'm just better at reading behind the lines, because I was never 'oh fuck I didn't see that coming, where did that come from?'. Though I've noticed that holds true with a lot of GW2 things, where people are like 'I thought it'd be this, and it wasn't', and I never thought it'd be that.
You can even find my older posts, and I even say things like the reasons I'm most hyped for it is ease of playing with friends (Still true, and still my number one requirement for MMOs), and that it's B2P with an optional cash shop and nothing you need.
Maybe I just had different expectations and understanding though. Even my really old posts on things like GW2Guru talk about the cash shop and how I'm fine with it as long as it isn't bad.
Anybody who didn't see the cash shop coming is easily blinded though. 
Maybe it WAS marketed that way, or in a way where people could assume that, and I just didn't notice. But it still seems weird to me that people think so, because I didn't take it that way.
You can even find my older posts, and I even say things like the reasons I'm most hyped for it is ease of playing with friends (Still true, and still my number one requirement for MMOs), and that it's B2P with an optional cash shop and nothing you need.
Maybe I just had different expectations and understanding though. Even my really old posts on things like GW2Guru talk about the cash shop and how I'm fine with it as long as it isn't bad.
Anybody who didn't see the cash shop coming is easily blinded though. D:
Maybe it WAS marketed that way, or in a way where people could assume that, and I just didn't notice. But it still seems weird to me that people think so, because I didn't take it that way.
good lord /facepalm
we all knew it had a cash shop. Im talking about how it was MARKETED. MARKETED. MAR-KEH-TED-UH
lol jesus
RIGHT, and I'm saying that I don't particularly remember it being marketed as not having a cash shop!
And then I said =that might just be me=.
I can't remember what the marketing is like, just what I knew. And I knew it had a cash shop. So whatever marketing they had didn't work on me?
This is purely anecdotal on BOTH our parts, since neither of us have actually linked Arenanet marketing where they're making it sound like there will be no cash shop, but I actually said I'm willing to believe that you're right and they did it in a way where people could get that understanding. Thoug hI'd kind of like to see that link, because if we all knew there was going to be a cash shop, then how was it marketed that there would not be?
I do know that anybody who believes things based off of marketing should probably break that habit though. :c Because there was definitely real information that one could easily access that said there was a cash shop.
yeah lol. see my signature.
but aaanyway. Honey I Shrunk the Kids is on Netflix instant play now?!?! I'm out
Huh? It is the only game I know of that adds continuous content at least every 2 weeks. How much more advance game play do you want?
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
LS and cosmetic skins is all GW2 has keeping it alive at the moment.
I like the LS, bit lets not pretend that it is "loads of content". It is some, and I am thankful for it, but new weapon sets for each class would keep me going foe Months.
but LS and cosmetic skins sap all of the dev time to make any game play changes like what I am interested in.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Uhm... what?
Content is any consumable experience you add into a game. This can be LS, this can be Jumping Puzzles, this can be hats, this can be new crafting recipes, or new dance emotes. It doesn't matter how small or large a thing is, if it's an experience being added to a game, it's content. Regardless of whether or not it's the content you personally want.
Content is any consumable experience you add into a game. This can be LS, this can be Jumping Puzzles, this can be hats, this can be new crafting recipes, or new dance emotes. It doesn't matter how small or large a thing is, if it's an experience being added to a game, it's content. Regardless of whether or not it's the content you personally want.
story is context, not content. but that is another debate altogether hehe.
Guild Missions, Fractals of the Mists, Edge of the Mists, Tequatl, Aetherblade Hidden Base, Triple Wurm, there is a lot of permanent stuff here, that is not connected to the living story, but just "game play" as you say.
If you combine this with the efforts they have made over the last two years to make the base game better - People wanted more value out of their skins and their dyes, so they made everything account-wide and shared between all your characters, even retroactively. They made a Wardrobe system, they created a luck salvaging system, they made an observer mode, they added ladders, they added WvW tournaments, they created a Achievement reward system, they overhauled all champion bosses in the game aswell and created many new skins. They have almost doubled the amount of hairstyles and faces for the races, and added a significant amount of new dyes as well. They created an accout wide wallet for all currencies to make it more friendly, and they developed a new tier of top gear call ascended with it's own path for creating.
Then there is all the activity mini games and all the holiday events that come back. And Super Adventure Box. Things like this are a easy to forget. They are not what you think about when you think about the Living Story, but there actually has been a lot of stuff added.
I think feature wise it has taken a lot of them for them to fix culling, the serious performance implication of having so many players fighting in WvW and the entire debacle of the gold sellers and bots which almost brought down the game after it came out. And then the Megaserver. I am sure that all these things took up a lot of their time. But I think it was the right thing to do.
It was the right choice to fix some of the fundamental problems. And GW2 is not out of the woods yet. sPvP is much better with the new reward tracks, but it's not where it needs to be. The base dungeons are not were they need to be either, and the game could benefit from some additional meta PvE gameplay system in the current zones.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I expect that the China release was a part of it. After all it only released there 15th of May and it seems Anet wants to keep the different versions in sync.
Other aspect might be the question on how to release the new content - free, as dlc, boxed expansion, etc - maximizing their profit.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders