This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
Originally posted by DihoruOr what is winning in a game... games by default are made not to win or lose but to have fun and as Extra Credits put it: It is time to make losing as fun as winning because while you do not get a trophy you should get some acknowledgement which would make your ego realize it lost more often than not due to your own mistakes not some unforeseen advantage or such. This is why so many people cry P2W but in quite a few cases they aren't crying because they cannot equal without monetary investment but do so because they view their time as somehow more important than another's who does take the free route. AA allows parity between free and paid playerbases by allowing the trade of CS items and currency freely between the two and due to the market it forms any attempts to "win" by gaining a monetary advantage in-game via pumping in CS currency or items into the market will end up with vastly diminishing returns rather fast (as I mentioned above this did happen in EVE and for quite a few years after 30 days of gametime was equal to ~100 mil isk in in-game cash, considering today PLEX stands at 8 times that you can guess what will happen to those trying to gain overwhelming advantages or a leg up in a fight this way).
Allowing players to purchase cash shop items with in game currency does not automatically give parity. In fact, it usually just increases the disparity between players that purchase items and players that don't, since cash shop items are the equivalent of unique items in a game. Their value will always increase over time.
Assuming said items are not ubiquitous in which case they will lose their power due to people gaining experience countering them. If parity between cash shop items and in-game ones is maintained then you really are only bypassing grind when going cash shop but more often than not it will not benefit you as stereotypical cash shop weapons will be known and countered ( in World of Tanks one of the most popular cash shop tanks is the Type 59 chinese tank, at its level it is a good all round tank but if you have any idea how to play your tank and what weak spots the Type 59 has, and it does have quite a few, you can cripple or even destroy it with a tier 6 or even 5 tank, did it once in a Churchill Mark 1, pinned one against a incline and shot its commander cupola until it finished me off, sadly he had 200 hp left and not enough power to push my wreck away in time and got finished off by a opportunistic hellcat).
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by flizzer Every gamer has a different definition of what pay to win means. It is obvious some people will consider this game pay to win and simply telling them it is not isn't going to change that. In the end each player will be deciding if these cash shop items are enough to turn them off the game.
The ability to convert real money to gold as well as using advantages, purchased from the Cash Shop and through the use of multiple accounts, to leverage early control of resources to establish a lasting power base is not subjective.
Have you heard of a little game called EVE? Have you heard of a little item within it called PLEX? yes? then you now know how much your opinion resembles a Taiwanese prostitute's posterior when it comes to validity here. There is no advantage gained without massive, impossible to sustain investment (yes even for a rich person, a russian magnate tried bank rolling his own alliance in EVE in the early days and he sunk the game time card market so badly it stopped being possible for him to even attempt it and just for reference his own words were that he spent well within the 100s of thousands of dollars trying it).
Your arguments are at best two dimensional and at worse knowingly ignorant of the wider effects saturation of cash shop currency would have on the market. You could say that the xp pots would be a advantage if the game had no level caps as is though you are reaching so far you may as well ask Zeus for a beer.
So, your whole argument for AA is because EVE has a different system?
Also, allow me to educate you on EVE"s RMT system.
There are massive advantages from RMT. However, EVE's system is 3 party and not 2. Meaning there are 2 players and CCP in each transaction. Someone is getting massive advantages from each transaction. Guess who? No, it's not the one buying PLEX, It's the ones selling it and using it to..........what was it I said earlier in this thread that would grant huge advantages??????
In EVE, those with multiple accounts have huge advantages. They are the ones using those accounts to earn PLEX in game and sell it off to the mediocre player base.
So, no EVE is not P2W........But it is P2Lose, since the money players spend buying ISK is turned around and used buy The Goons to dominate them through the use of....god only knows how many accounts that Corp uses.
Hello Greedy Goblin, thought the pseudo-logic seemed familiar from somewhere.
Oh and Goons dominate not because of that (the Russians did try it as well during the first great war and it failed, what makes you think Goons can bank roll themselves by flooding the market now?) but because they are nasty sons of ******* and make war not some fancy affair you deal with with honor and fairness, they just go in the same way a warrior would go into a conflict: to make the other guy die a horrible death as quickly as possible by any means possible (if you believe real life is different count your blessings you've never been ambushed at night by street thugs).
Oh and that mediocre playerbase are actually mostly much better than the average Goon in skills but they lack the leadership or impulse to do anything about them because they haven't been pissed off by them (Burn Jita? yeah only mouthbreathers got boned there, Hulkageddon, not goons and not impacting actual miners much, the gallente tower ice embargo? still possible to harvest ice if you had two functioning neurons).
Keep trying to peddle your trash logic in a vane attempt to sound educated in some way because in the end it just proves you do not want even the remote possibility of anything chaotic or unforeseen happening in your games thus I can only guess you have a bully mentality and would pick fights in PVP games only when sure of victory.
You say the Goons dominate not because of PLEX as if that has nothing to do with it. I'm straight up calling that a lie. But, enough of EVE, That's a straw man attempt at derailment.
Argue about AA. Instead of subjectivity, sensationalism and emotional appeal, why don't you try logic? Tell me how RMT Gold conversion won't give advantages. Tell me how multiple account subscriptions won't circumvent LP. Tell me how players who are leveled faster in the 1st few days won't be faster to set up land resources and how that won't later translate to more lasting advantages down the road.
Because like your Goon example you are ignoring economics put bluntly. And it isn't a straw man, you just call it that to avoid it being used to show how out of your depth you are. Multiple account subscriptions can happen in any game to give an advantage, period, not a single sandbox, themepark or sandpark exists today where that is not possible regardless of P2P or F2P, trying to make a big fuss out of it with AA seems... awfully targeted considering in games like say EVE you do get a horizontal progression advantage with 2 accounts while in AA you just get more LP but why would that matter? Crafting? Yeah flood the market and you tank your profits, how does this help you? Loot too much and you flood it again and this goes for farming and anything else where LP can be used to gain a in-game cash influx from. Now if you want to say that people won't mind if they get price of materials used +1 copper (extreme example) for an item sold... you must be utterly new to the concept of a player driven market.
Here's another example: The Dilithium exchange in STO, used to be really advantageous to trade real world money for dilithium until the market reached, and shot past, saturation and now it hovers around the ok barrier in terms of dilithium to zen.
Also just FYI try researching why Goons dominate, maybe you will write less moronic articles for EN24 that way.
Originally posted by Dauzqul Not bad. They should get rid of XP pots, though. That is p2w as far as I'm concerned.
How are they pay to win, its Money = Time. If its 100% boost for example, then my only playing 4 hours equals to your eight hours. Maybe you have 8 hours a day to play... I don't.
This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
The puffery is indeed getting tiring. At least the average game review rating is more critical these days.
Originally posted by Dauzqul Not bad. They should get rid of XP pots, though. That is p2w as far as I'm concerned.
How are they pay to win, its Money = Time. If its 100% boost for example, then my only playing 4 hours equals to your eight hours. Maybe you have 8 hours a day to play... I don't.
P2W means gaining more power over someone. Your defense is too one sided.
Money = Time = Power.
Offering increased gains in power, even if indirectly, means it is not an even playing field. Those playing 16 hours a day can also buy xp gains. The net result is about power within the game. You can pay to gain it. It is as simple as that.
This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
The puffery is indeed getting tiring. At least the average game review rating is more critical these days.
Yes because encouraging people to think and then telling them what currently is in the CS is puffery, paid garbage and whatnot. Rand needs to learn what a review is quite badly and you need to learn the difference between P2W and P2AG (avoid the grind).
Seriously this is getting retardedly funny past a point... some people point: well yeah if they spend cash to get boosts they will get there faster!!! well no shit sherlock, how do you earn money again? by spending time? at a job? how were old MMOs sans EVE and SWG pre-CU? grinders? how did you get there then? grind? you mean spending more time in-game than being productive and earning money in real life? Wow sounds like you were paying just as much in WoW, EQ 1 and 2, AoC, etc,etc,etc as you will in fair and balanced F2P MMOs.
Originally posted by Dauzqul Not bad. They should get rid of XP pots, though. That is p2w as far as I'm concerned.
It's more of a P2Shortcut rather than P2W. I'm much more concerned with the fact that apparently a sub doesn't give you all the game. Seems like you'll still have to use a cash shop on top a sub to perform 100% in AA at this point. That worries me greatly, and is quite out of character for Trion.
Stuff like the Salon item, etc. I expect will be in game for sub players to use freely. If not, the game may as well not even release as a sub based game, it's just another F2P cash grab. They need to really watch it, stuff like the LP potions really skirts the line of P2W. They are far too close to that line for my comfort right now.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
The puffery is indeed getting tiring. At least the average game review rating is more critical these days.
Yes because encouraging people to think and then telling them what currently is in the CS is puffery, paid garbage and whatnot. Rand needs to learn what a review is quite badly and you need to learn the difference between P2W and P2AG (avoid the grind).
Seriously this is getting retardedly funny past a point... some people point: well yeah if they spend cash to get boosts they will get there faster!!! well no shit sherlock, how do you earn money again? by spending time? at a job? how were old MMOs sans EVE and SWG pre-CU? grinders? how did you get there then? grind? you mean spending more time in-game than being productive and earning money in real life? Wow sounds like you were paying just as much in WoW, EQ 1 and 2, AoC, etc,etc,etc as you will in fair and balanced F2P MMOs.
p2w = p2ag
not sure who decided to suggest that its not...of course it is!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
The puffery is indeed getting tiring. At least the average game review rating is more critical these days.
Yes because encouraging people to think and then telling them what currently is in the CS is puffery, paid garbage and whatnot. Rand needs to learn what a review is quite badly and you need to learn the difference between P2W and P2AG (avoid the grind).
Seriously this is getting retardedly funny past a point... some people point: well yeah if they spend cash to get boosts they will get there faster!!! well no shit sherlock, how do you earn money again? by spending time? at a job? how were old MMOs sans EVE and SWG pre-CU? grinders? how did you get there then? grind? you mean spending more time in-game than being productive and earning money in real life? Wow sounds like you were paying just as much in WoW, EQ 1 and 2, AoC, etc,etc,etc as you will in fair and balanced F2P MMOs.
p2w = p2ag
not sure who decided to suggest that its not...of course it is!
In a purely themepark game, maybe but in one that does not involve item grind... I do not understand how it could? And in one that does you then rob yourself of the game experience so you actually lose...
Because like your Goon example you are ignoring economics put bluntly. And it isn't a straw man, you just call it that to avoid it being used to show how out of your depth you are. Multiple account subscriptions can happen in any game to give an advantage, period, not a single sandbox, themepark or sandpark exists today where that is not possible regardless of P2P or F2P, trying to make a big fuss out of it with AA seems... awfully targeted considering in games like say EVE you do get a horizontal progression advantage with 2 accounts while in AA you just get more LP but why would that matter? Crafting? Yeah flood the market and you tank your profits, how does this help you? Loot too much and you flood it again and this goes for farming and anything else where LP can be used to gain a in-game cash influx from. Now if you want to say that people won't mind if they get price of materials used +1 copper (extreme example) for an item sold... you must be utterly new to the concept of a player driven market.
Here's another example: The Dilithium exchange in STO, used to be really advantageous to trade real world money for dilithium until the market reached, and shot past, saturation and now it hovers around the ok barrier in terms of dilithium to zen.
Also just FYI try researching why Goons dominate, maybe you will write less moronic articles for EN24 that way.
Again, you are using sweeping generalizations. Not all games have advantages from Multiple accounts. Mostly it's the ones that have restrictions on players. So again, I will ask you about ArcheAge........ARCHEAGE......(Remember, we are talking about ArcheAge here) What about ARCHEAGE's (And by ARCHEAGE, I mean ARCHEAGE and not other games) restrictive mechanics won't translate into substantial advantages for those players willing to spend the money?
Here's what I am getting at....You are trying to use an argument based on what may or may not work in other games to justify ArcheAge without actually considering ArcheAge itself.
This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
The puffery is indeed getting tiring. At least the average game review rating is more critical these days.
Yes because encouraging people to think and then telling them what currently is in the CS is puffery, paid garbage and whatnot. Rand needs to learn what a review is quite badly and you need to learn the difference between P2W and P2AG (avoid the grind).
Seriously this is getting retardedly funny past a point... some people point: well yeah if they spend cash to get boosts they will get there faster!!! well no shit sherlock, how do you earn money again? by spending time? at a job? how were old MMOs sans EVE and SWG pre-CU? grinders? how did you get there then? grind? you mean spending more time in-game than being productive and earning money in real life? Wow sounds like you were paying just as much in WoW, EQ 1 and 2, AoC, etc,etc,etc as you will in fair and balanced F2P MMOs.
p2w = p2ag
not sure who decided to suggest that its not...of course it is!
In a purely themepark game, maybe but in one that does not involve item grind... I do not understand how it could? And in one that does you then rob yourself of the game experience so you actually lose...
1. technically one does not 'lose' in an MMO rpg, thus one is to infer the meaning of the term.
2. given item 1, everything and nothing could be argued to not be p2w HOWEVER, it doesnt change the meaning of the phrase nor does it make aspects of the game not the meaning of the phrase simply because the argument has been posed against it.
understand?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Apparently there are new items in the store as of today according to the Archeage forums.
You can upgrade a wagon and buy hereafter stones. I don't know what else because I don't have access to the game (although I'll be playing CB2 tomorrow woohoo!)
I can't tell if the game is P2W or not yet because I haven't played yet, but any game where you can convert items to in-game currency can have problems, depending on how useful the in-game currency is to obtain gear.
So, it's not necessarily about how much more powerful a labor potion can make you, but how much more powerful you can get by selling a bunch of them in game.
This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
The puffery is indeed getting tiring. At least the average game review rating is more critical these days.
Yes because encouraging people to think and then telling them what currently is in the CS is puffery, paid garbage and whatnot. Rand needs to learn what a review is quite badly and you need to learn the difference between P2W and P2AG (avoid the grind).
Seriously this is getting retardedly funny past a point... some people point: well yeah if they spend cash to get boosts they will get there faster!!! well no shit sherlock, how do you earn money again? by spending time? at a job? how were old MMOs sans EVE and SWG pre-CU? grinders? how did you get there then? grind? you mean spending more time in-game than being productive and earning money in real life? Wow sounds like you were paying just as much in WoW, EQ 1 and 2, AoC, etc,etc,etc as you will in fair and balanced F2P MMOs.
p2w = p2ag
not sure who decided to suggest that its not...of course it is!
In a purely themepark game, maybe but in one that does not involve item grind... I do not understand how it could? And in one that does you then rob yourself of the game experience so you actually lose...
1. technically one does not 'lose' in an MMO rpg, thus one is to infer the meaning of the term.
2. given item 1, everything and nothing could be argued to not be p2w HOWEVER, it doesnt change the meaning of the phrase nor does it make aspects of the game not the meaning of the phrase simply because the argument has been posed against it.
understand?
So why argue over P2W when a game does not flat out restrict anyone who never invests money into the game? Time spent gaining access to the game will take time for free but just like many things in life it is possible but vastly more difficult. This is just to keep things within the P2W idea, if we toss the notion of winning out the door then the idea people are peddling are pointless to begin with because if you cannot lose you cannot win.
This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
The puffery is indeed getting tiring. At least the average game review rating is more critical these days.
Yes because encouraging people to think and then telling them what currently is in the CS is puffery, paid garbage and whatnot. Rand needs to learn what a review is quite badly and you need to learn the difference between P2W and P2AG (avoid the grind).
Seriously this is getting retardedly funny past a point... some people point: well yeah if they spend cash to get boosts they will get there faster!!! well no shit sherlock, how do you earn money again? by spending time? at a job? how were old MMOs sans EVE and SWG pre-CU? grinders? how did you get there then? grind? you mean spending more time in-game than being productive and earning money in real life? Wow sounds like you were paying just as much in WoW, EQ 1 and 2, AoC, etc,etc,etc as you will in fair and balanced F2P MMOs.
p2w = p2ag
not sure who decided to suggest that its not...of course it is!
In a purely themepark game, maybe but in one that does not involve item grind... I do not understand how it could? And in one that does you then rob yourself of the game experience so you actually lose...
1. technically one does not 'lose' in an MMO rpg, thus one is to infer the meaning of the term.
2. given item 1, everything and nothing could be argued to not be p2w HOWEVER, it doesnt change the meaning of the phrase nor does it make aspects of the game not the meaning of the phrase simply because the argument has been posed against it.
understand?
So why argue over P2W when a game does not flat out restrict anyone who never invests money into the game? Time spent gaining access to the game will take time for free but just like many things in life it is possible but vastly more difficult. This is just to keep things within the P2W idea, if we toss the notion of winning out the door then the idea people are peddling are pointless to begin with because if you cannot lose you cannot win.
you are arguing the use of the phrase which the meaning is being appiled, they are arguing the meaning of the word, regardless of the phrased used to describe the meaning.
In reality your choice of the phrase is better, but it doesnt change the debate is where you have a problem, you just solved a different debate.
understand?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
This board looks at P2W under a single perspective. Usually under the WoW-Context. Meaning what would be P2W in a WoW like game is how P2W is defined for all games.
XP Boosts in GW2 do not equate to P2W because getting there 1st and getting there 2nd don't have any difference as long as you get there. But in games where 2nd place = the 1st loser, then XP boosts matter.
But then players also look at GW2 and forget that the game was designed around an aesthetic appeal as a system and a mechanic. They have entirely structured methods by which you can improve the look of your gear. Spend gold on it, spend real money on it etc. The game was designed for this, yet the ability to buy the best and quite frankly, the only source of new looking gear from the Cash Shop is overlooked as P2W yet looking good in GW2 is absolutely an intended objective and it's absolutely P2W in that aspect.
When you look at what you will want to be doing in AA and how to get there, it does become P2W. Being able to grab and hold land before someone else expands your future potential to both hold and retain that land as well as acquire new lands.
Plus there is the ultimate P2W mechanic.....RMT / Gold conversion.
The problem I see in calling it pay to win is that games like this are based around group objectives more or less. Meaning any number of people on either side could be using these "advantages". It's not about individual power, it's not a solo based game at elder levels of play. One person with power will change very little, from an overall perspective.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by KarontenoKamii Xp boosts aren't p2w lol
Once you realize how trivial it is to level to 50, you will understand just how mistaken you are.
ArcheAge is not about hitting max level, it's not even about leveling up.
Guilds that are well organized and communicate well will rule ArcheAge - it has nothing to do with XP boosts or any items in the cash shop.
You can't buy skilled guilds in the cash shop - as thst is what wins in ArcheAge
This is what worries me. I can live with an item shop, even if they sold exp and LP potions in there, but if this game is yet another 'level up for few days then play counter strike until your eyes bleed' -type of MMO, i have to pass.
I've been waiting this game for so long, only to learn the most important part of an MMO game has been trivialized.
Wonder why they even sell exp potions in these games..
What a disappointment.
Well, it's still F2P.. there's nothing to lose if i give it a chance..
This board looks at P2W under a single perspective. Usually under the WoW-Context. Meaning what would be P2W in a WoW like game is how P2W is defined for all games.
XP Boosts in GW2 do not equate to P2W because getting there 1st and getting there 2nd don't have any difference as long as you get there. But in games where 2nd place = the 1st loser, then XP boosts matter.
But then players also look at GW2 and forget that the game was designed around an aesthetic appeal as a system and a mechanic. They have entirely structured methods by which you can improve the look of your gear. Spend gold on it, spend real money on it etc. The game was designed for this, yet the ability to buy the best and quite frankly, the only source of new looking gear from the Cash Shop is overlooked as P2W yet looking good in GW2 is absolutely an intended objective and it's absolutely P2W in that aspect.
When you look at what you will want to be doing in AA and how to get there, it does become P2W. Being able to grab and hold land before someone else expands your future potential to both hold and retain that land as well as acquire new lands.
Plus there is the ultimate P2W mechanic.....RMT / Gold conversion.
The problem I see in calling it pay to win is that games like this are based around group objectives more or less. Meaning any number of people on either side could be using these "advantages". It's not about individual power, it's not a solo based game at elder levels of play. One person with power will change very little, from an overall perspective.
For that statement I agree. But now we have a new "META" to discuss. Guilds who will require certain levels of character development. or Spending money to join them. Otherwise it means that players who spend money in the CS will knowingly be carrying players who don't allowing the non spenders to ride their coat tails.
I can see guild leaders wanting nothing to do with that.
Well, XP boost= You level up faster than players that don't buy that potions, so you have sooner more Health points and more damage because you're stronger. LP boost, you can craft a let's say "gold sword and armor" in three days or less, when a player that doesn't pay will have those weapon and armor in two weeks, so that's is called pay to win, because you're going to do much more damage and you are going to have a lot of sustain more because your armor, this game is perfect for a friend of mine, allways paying in pvp games to win...
This board looks at P2W under a single perspective. Usually under the WoW-Context. Meaning what would be P2W in a WoW like game is how P2W is defined for all games.
XP Boosts in GW2 do not equate to P2W because getting there 1st and getting there 2nd don't have any difference as long as you get there. But in games where 2nd place = the 1st loser, then XP boosts matter.
But then players also look at GW2 and forget that the game was designed around an aesthetic appeal as a system and a mechanic. They have entirely structured methods by which you can improve the look of your gear. Spend gold on it, spend real money on it etc. The game was designed for this, yet the ability to buy the best and quite frankly, the only source of new looking gear from the Cash Shop is overlooked as P2W yet looking good in GW2 is absolutely an intended objective and it's absolutely P2W in that aspect.
When you look at what you will want to be doing in AA and how to get there, it does become P2W. Being able to grab and hold land before someone else expands your future potential to both hold and retain that land as well as acquire new lands.
Plus there is the ultimate P2W mechanic.....RMT / Gold conversion.
The problem I see in calling it pay to win is that games like this are based around group objectives more or less. Meaning any number of people on either side could be using these "advantages". It's not about individual power, it's not a solo based game at elder levels of play. One person with power will change very little, from an overall perspective.
I think its important for people to not get lost in the phrases used to describe what we are all talking about becuase doing so can make one win the debate but still loose the point
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think the shop is p2w, being able to buy things in the shop for real money that you can sell for gold on the auction house is obviously giving somebody a clear advantage in the game for spending money, is it not? Yes I realize there are some korean mmos where you can actually buy overpowered gear in the cash shop that you can't get in game, and this is nothing like that, but its still a middle ground that i don't agree with and its something you rarely see in mmos now days. XP boosts/other types of boosts I could live with those are fine, but being able to buy certain items that will be worth a high amount of gold (labor point potions/etc) is just a bit insane to me and im surprised more people aren't outraged.
But at the same time, if somebody really wanted to buy gold for real money, they will. You'd be crazy to think that those third party websites that sell gold for money don't get very many customers, if nobody used these websites then they wouldn't exist in the first place.
So does somebody spending money on the cash shop get an advantage over a player who doesn't? 100% yes. But at the same time they probably would of just done it anyway using a third party website.
Originally posted by KaronT3 Well, XP boost= You level up faster than players that don't buy that potions, so you have sooner more Health points and more damage because you're stronger. LP boost, you can craft a let's say "gold sword and armor" in three days or less, when a player that doesn't pay will have those weapon and armor in two weeks, so that's is called pay to win, because you're going to do much more damage and you are going to have a lot of sustain more because your armor, this game is perfect for a friend of mine, allways paying in pvp games to win...
This is why P2W discussion always devolve into everyone disagreeing on what P2W means. You can't nail down a game as P2W for everyone because winning is different from each person's perspective. Then we end up with threads like this where the immovable object meets the unstoppable force. AA is going to be P2W for some people, and not affect others, the same as any other game that sells power/cosmetics/potions/minions/anything with a cash shop.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
This board looks at P2W under a single perspective. Usually under the WoW-Context. Meaning what would be P2W in a WoW like game is how P2W is defined for all games.
XP Boosts in GW2 do not equate to P2W because getting there 1st and getting there 2nd don't have any difference as long as you get there. But in games where 2nd place = the 1st loser, then XP boosts matter.
But then players also look at GW2 and forget that the game was designed around an aesthetic appeal as a system and a mechanic. They have entirely structured methods by which you can improve the look of your gear. Spend gold on it, spend real money on it etc. The game was designed for this, yet the ability to buy the best and quite frankly, the only source of new looking gear from the Cash Shop is overlooked as P2W yet looking good in GW2 is absolutely an intended objective and it's absolutely P2W in that aspect.
When you look at what you will want to be doing in AA and how to get there, it does become P2W. Being able to grab and hold land before someone else expands your future potential to both hold and retain that land as well as acquire new lands.
Plus there is the ultimate P2W mechanic.....RMT / Gold conversion.
The problem I see in calling it pay to win is that games like this are based around group objectives more or less. Meaning any number of people on either side could be using these "advantages". It's not about individual power, it's not a solo based game at elder levels of play. One person with power will change very little, from an overall perspective.
For that statement I agree. But now we have a new "META" to discuss. Guilds who will require certain levels of character development. or Spending money to join them. Otherwise it means that players who spend money in the CS will knowingly be carrying players who don't allowing the non spenders to ride their coat tails.
I can see guild leaders wanting nothing to do with that.
That's certainly a possibility.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This board looks at P2W under a single perspective. Usually under the WoW-Context. Meaning what would be P2W in a WoW like game is how P2W is defined for all games.
XP Boosts in GW2 do not equate to P2W because getting there 1st and getting there 2nd don't have any difference as long as you get there. But in games where 2nd place = the 1st loser, then XP boosts matter.
But then players also look at GW2 and forget that the game was designed around an aesthetic appeal as a system and a mechanic. They have entirely structured methods by which you can improve the look of your gear. Spend gold on it, spend real money on it etc. The game was designed for this, yet the ability to buy the best and quite frankly, the only source of new looking gear from the Cash Shop is overlooked as P2W yet looking good in GW2 is absolutely an intended objective and it's absolutely P2W in that aspect.
When you look at what you will want to be doing in AA and how to get there, it does become P2W. Being able to grab and hold land before someone else expands your future potential to both hold and retain that land as well as acquire new lands.
Plus there is the ultimate P2W mechanic.....RMT / Gold conversion.
The problem I see in calling it pay to win is that games like this are based around group objectives more or less. Meaning any number of people on either side could be using these "advantages". It's not about individual power, it's not a solo based game at elder levels of play. One person with power will change very little, from an overall perspective.
There is no group objective that you speak of at all here bro, have you even played or got to end game? Castles are built and done with within a few days, now besides that, there isnt really any group objective. Now yes you may travel within your guild to deliver some trade packs, yes you might go fishing together, yeah you might pvp together but this is by no mean a group game as everyone seem to pretend. Just like any other game, you can either play solo or in group and most 95% of the game can be experienced completely on your own. Yes like any other game you gain major advantage from grouping, 4v1 is a good advantage, or crafting groups.........
You cant say this and that doesnt matter because you see this game as group game and therefore even one totally op individual should not matter. Let me tell you, in alpha it was completely easy to just mess with an entire group of max level players on my own. Almost every damn pvp build use stealth. I used it, wait that one went appart the group or at a good moment and owned that one, 2 or even 3 in a row... Now say if i were to be p2w on top of that, i would prolly take down their entire group one by one...
Skills plus p2w = ruining games, especially sandbox. Now a full group of skilled organised players and also p2w = End of any kind of pvp on that server. Dominating side.
Originally posted by KaronT3 Well, XP boost= You level up faster than players that don't buy that potions, so you have sooner more Health points and more damage because you're stronger. LP boost, you can craft a let's say "gold sword and armor" in three days or less, when a player that doesn't pay will have those weapon and armor in two weeks, so that's is called pay to win, because you're going to do much more damage and you are going to have a lot of sustain more because your armor, this game is perfect for a friend of mine, allways paying in pvp games to win...
This is why P2W discussion always devolve into everyone disagreeing on what P2W means. You can't nail down a game as P2W for everyone because winning is different from each person's perspective. Then we end up with threads like this where the immovable object meets the unstoppable force. AA is going to be P2W for some people, and not affect others, the same as any other game that sells power/cosmetics/potions/minions/anything with a cash shop.
and the people who disassemble the meaning walk away thinking they won a debate and yet what people are calling P2W (regardless of it being a bad choice of words) still exists as a valid point.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
This entire article is an indictment on MMORPG.com....do you get paid to post this garbage? First you do the Quests thing, now the Cash Shop. It's like you are advertising the game rather than reporting on it.
If you can't smell P2W Asian Grinder yet, you might wanna go to the doctor to get checked.
Because like your Goon example you are ignoring economics put bluntly. And it isn't a straw man, you just call it that to avoid it being used to show how out of your depth you are. Multiple account subscriptions can happen in any game to give an advantage, period, not a single sandbox, themepark or sandpark exists today where that is not possible regardless of P2P or F2P, trying to make a big fuss out of it with AA seems... awfully targeted considering in games like say EVE you do get a horizontal progression advantage with 2 accounts while in AA you just get more LP but why would that matter? Crafting? Yeah flood the market and you tank your profits, how does this help you? Loot too much and you flood it again and this goes for farming and anything else where LP can be used to gain a in-game cash influx from. Now if you want to say that people won't mind if they get price of materials used +1 copper (extreme example) for an item sold... you must be utterly new to the concept of a player driven market.
Here's another example: The Dilithium exchange in STO, used to be really advantageous to trade real world money for dilithium until the market reached, and shot past, saturation and now it hovers around the ok barrier in terms of dilithium to zen.
Also just FYI try researching why Goons dominate, maybe you will write less moronic articles for EN24 that way.
How are they pay to win, its Money = Time. If its 100% boost for example, then my only playing 4 hours equals to your eight hours. Maybe you have 8 hours a day to play... I don't.
The puffery is indeed getting tiring. At least the average game review rating is more critical these days.
You stay sassy!
P2W means gaining more power over someone. Your defense is too one sided.
Money = Time = Power.
Offering increased gains in power, even if indirectly, means it is not an even playing field. Those playing 16 hours a day can also buy xp gains. The net result is about power within the game. You can pay to gain it. It is as simple as that.
You stay sassy!
Yes because encouraging people to think and then telling them what currently is in the CS is puffery, paid garbage and whatnot. Rand needs to learn what a review is quite badly and you need to learn the difference between P2W and P2AG (avoid the grind).
Seriously this is getting retardedly funny past a point... some people point: well yeah if they spend cash to get boosts they will get there faster!!! well no shit sherlock, how do you earn money again? by spending time? at a job? how were old MMOs sans EVE and SWG pre-CU? grinders? how did you get there then? grind? you mean spending more time in-game than being productive and earning money in real life? Wow sounds like you were paying just as much in WoW, EQ 1 and 2, AoC, etc,etc,etc as you will in fair and balanced F2P MMOs.
It's more of a P2Shortcut rather than P2W. I'm much more concerned with the fact that apparently a sub doesn't give you all the game. Seems like you'll still have to use a cash shop on top a sub to perform 100% in AA at this point. That worries me greatly, and is quite out of character for Trion.
Stuff like the Salon item, etc. I expect will be in game for sub players to use freely. If not, the game may as well not even release as a sub based game, it's just another F2P cash grab. They need to really watch it, stuff like the LP potions really skirts the line of P2W. They are far too close to that line for my comfort right now.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
p2w = p2ag
not sure who decided to suggest that its not...of course it is!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
In a purely themepark game, maybe but in one that does not involve item grind... I do not understand how it could? And in one that does you then rob yourself of the game experience so you actually lose...
Again, you are using sweeping generalizations. Not all games have advantages from Multiple accounts. Mostly it's the ones that have restrictions on players. So again, I will ask you about ArcheAge........ARCHEAGE......(Remember, we are talking about ArcheAge here) What about ARCHEAGE's (And by ARCHEAGE, I mean ARCHEAGE and not other games) restrictive mechanics won't translate into substantial advantages for those players willing to spend the money?
Here's what I am getting at....You are trying to use an argument based on what may or may not work in other games to justify ArcheAge without actually considering ArcheAge itself.
1. technically one does not 'lose' in an MMO rpg, thus one is to infer the meaning of the term.
2. given item 1, everything and nothing could be argued to not be p2w HOWEVER, it doesnt change the meaning of the phrase nor does it make aspects of the game not the meaning of the phrase simply because the argument has been posed against it.
understand?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Apparently there are new items in the store as of today according to the Archeage forums.
You can upgrade a wagon and buy hereafter stones. I don't know what else because I don't have access to the game (although I'll be playing CB2 tomorrow woohoo!)
I can't tell if the game is P2W or not yet because I haven't played yet, but any game where you can convert items to in-game currency can have problems, depending on how useful the in-game currency is to obtain gear.
So, it's not necessarily about how much more powerful a labor potion can make you, but how much more powerful you can get by selling a bunch of them in game.
So why argue over P2W when a game does not flat out restrict anyone who never invests money into the game? Time spent gaining access to the game will take time for free but just like many things in life it is possible but vastly more difficult. This is just to keep things within the P2W idea, if we toss the notion of winning out the door then the idea people are peddling are pointless to begin with because if you cannot lose you cannot win.
you are arguing the use of the phrase which the meaning is being appiled, they are arguing the meaning of the word, regardless of the phrased used to describe the meaning.
In reality your choice of the phrase is better, but it doesnt change the debate is where you have a problem, you just solved a different debate.
understand?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The problem I see in calling it pay to win is that games like this are based around group objectives more or less. Meaning any number of people on either side could be using these "advantages". It's not about individual power, it's not a solo based game at elder levels of play. One person with power will change very little, from an overall perspective.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This is what worries me. I can live with an item shop, even if they sold exp and LP potions in there, but if this game is yet another 'level up for few days then play counter strike until your eyes bleed' -type of MMO, i have to pass.
I've been waiting this game for so long, only to learn the most important part of an MMO game has been trivialized.
Wonder why they even sell exp potions in these games..
What a disappointment.
Well, it's still F2P.. there's nothing to lose if i give it a chance..
For that statement I agree. But now we have a new "META" to discuss. Guilds who will require certain levels of character development. or Spending money to join them. Otherwise it means that players who spend money in the CS will knowingly be carrying players who don't allowing the non spenders to ride their coat tails.
I can see guild leaders wanting nothing to do with that.
I think its important for people to not get lost in the phrases used to describe what we are all talking about becuase doing so can make one win the debate but still loose the point
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
To the whole of the MMO community....
I think the shop is p2w, being able to buy things in the shop for real money that you can sell for gold on the auction house is obviously giving somebody a clear advantage in the game for spending money, is it not? Yes I realize there are some korean mmos where you can actually buy overpowered gear in the cash shop that you can't get in game, and this is nothing like that, but its still a middle ground that i don't agree with and its something you rarely see in mmos now days. XP boosts/other types of boosts I could live with those are fine, but being able to buy certain items that will be worth a high amount of gold (labor point potions/etc) is just a bit insane to me and im surprised more people aren't outraged.
But at the same time, if somebody really wanted to buy gold for real money, they will. You'd be crazy to think that those third party websites that sell gold for money don't get very many customers, if nobody used these websites then they wouldn't exist in the first place.
So does somebody spending money on the cash shop get an advantage over a player who doesn't? 100% yes. But at the same time they probably would of just done it anyway using a third party website.
This is why P2W discussion always devolve into everyone disagreeing on what P2W means. You can't nail down a game as P2W for everyone because winning is different from each person's perspective. Then we end up with threads like this where the immovable object meets the unstoppable force. AA is going to be P2W for some people, and not affect others, the same as any other game that sells power/cosmetics/potions/minions/anything with a cash shop.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
That's certainly a possibility.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There is no group objective that you speak of at all here bro, have you even played or got to end game? Castles are built and done with within a few days, now besides that, there isnt really any group objective. Now yes you may travel within your guild to deliver some trade packs, yes you might go fishing together, yeah you might pvp together but this is by no mean a group game as everyone seem to pretend. Just like any other game, you can either play solo or in group and most 95% of the game can be experienced completely on your own. Yes like any other game you gain major advantage from grouping, 4v1 is a good advantage, or crafting groups.........
You cant say this and that doesnt matter because you see this game as group game and therefore even one totally op individual should not matter. Let me tell you, in alpha it was completely easy to just mess with an entire group of max level players on my own. Almost every damn pvp build use stealth. I used it, wait that one went appart the group or at a good moment and owned that one, 2 or even 3 in a row... Now say if i were to be p2w on top of that, i would prolly take down their entire group one by one...
Skills plus p2w = ruining games, especially sandbox. Now a full group of skilled organised players and also p2w = End of any kind of pvp on that server. Dominating side.
and the people who disassemble the meaning walk away thinking they won a debate and yet what people are calling P2W (regardless of it being a bad choice of words) still exists as a valid point.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me