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Teso and GW2 vs AA

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  • seafirexseafirex Member UncommonPosts: 419

    Just to comment on the gear looks some have been talking about in this post :

    Even with the stats i think devs of any mmo's could give us some nice bad ass looking gear, but i think from time to time that they request help from 4 years old kids by the look of what we get when it comes to design the gear.

    Example : why have Male plate characters with robes and slippers and a staff? 

    It is like if they are making free publicity, they know we are not gona like it and complain about it, but at the same time they are making people speak about there game so much.

     

    I am not gay and have nothing against who is one in this world but come on. Even gays would not run down a battlefield with armors made of plate but with a look of a robe a women would wear at a reception.

     

    Edit : sorry but it had to be said at one point!!!

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 8,060
    Originally posted by Talketzanto
    Originally posted by Aeander
    Originally posted by Talketzanto
    Originally posted by Aeander

    He's from the "all progression is stat progression" crowd, which is fundamentally absurd and closed minded.

     

     

     

     

    There is another form of progression, and it's a beautiful form when done well. Combining aesthetics (which Guild Wars 2 accomplished) with an ever-expanding arsenal of sidegrade skills and available playstyles (which it did not), is arguably the best way to stimulate sandbox MMO gameplay while keeping gameplay interesting and fair.

    We've seen this form of progression in games that function similarly to MMOs (such as Guild Wars 1), and it has been a large part of their success. 

     

     

    Oh, but wait, it isn't progression because your character isn't gaining +100 Strength and +35 Dexterity when they obtain their Magical Sword of Bullshit. 

    Yea sorry Ide rather have +100 strength armor that is also "better looking then some other armor", over armor that is ONLY better looking then some others....Its so easy for these companies to make nice looking things without any thought about what stats to apply to them and not have to worry about balance. Your just making their jobs much easier and you bought into the crap they are putting out now.

     

    PS: If you wanna log on once every few months then sure its best to not have people progression because you never fall behind which should not be the case

     

    Yes, I'm sorry I'd prefer to have a good game that is replayable on its own merits and changes based on a flexible character building system than a bad one that utilizes the same cliche, boring stat-based gear system that's been outdated for a decade.

     

    But I'm just making their jobs much easier by buying into the crap they are putting out now. God forbid I enjoy the product I've received. God forbid. 

    Stat based gear is out dated and a decade old? LoL that was good stuff man.  Lets all just play a game where there is 0 progression and we are all equal! Peace and love :P

     

    It's funny because you're still looking at the aesthetic side of horizontal progression as its entirety and then dismissing it based on that. 

     

    No, the essence of a good horizontal progression system is that it allows a player to develop their character's OPTIONS without developing direct statistical power. Whereas a character in a vertical progression game will progress by obtaining gear and levels that give them arbitrary stat bonuses that render earlier content obsolete, a character in a horizontal progression game will learn new skills that they can utilize as alternatives to their old ones, and they'll do it by going out and exploring all that the game has to offer.

     

    The difference is significant. A vertical progression game tends to feel the same and build slowly towards what is hopefully its best content while everything before this point is wasted. A horizontal progression game keeps all content relevant while allowing the player's experience to evolve and be tailored via extensive build customization. 

     

    Guild Wars 2 had no progression. Why? Because it lacked the defining feature of horizontal progression - an extensive selection of specialized, customizable skills that are discovered/learned over time. Though the aesthetic portion of horizontal progression is certainly an asset, it is a much more frivolous one.

     

    But, I, of course, am wasting my time in trying to explain advanced concepts to a monkey. 

  • TalketzantoTalketzanto Member UncommonPosts: 205

    Ok you call it horizontal progression....yet you get NEW abilites to further your toon right? so why would I have a problem with that? THATS PROGRESSION! 

     

    and gw2 had none of that.....I got bored with that game after 1 month lol

     

    MMO's really went down hill when people started saying that a "cute robe" was better then a "powerful robe"

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by kurosenshu
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    GW2 good pvp but no progression so not an mmo IMO......TESO good pvp if you like 50v50 (zerging gets boring fast)...also no real point in taking keeps other then a few small buffs.....

    Both of these games have soft targeting but how hard is it to point your cursor at someone and attack? I dont think it adds skill to be honest....

     

     

    AA I enjoy because pvp can be large scale or small scale....I like that its more then just pvp (you can actually take peoples trade packs and make money off it)....

     

    I also enjoy the diversity in class makeup....More then most MMOs Ive played

     

    One last thing Ive noticed is the skill lvl seems to be high in pvp with AA, at least for me (Ive killed most people 15+ lvls then me) which again in most games usually wont happen often

     

     

    just my 2 cents

     

    BTW this was suppose to be a response to a thread (I accidently made a new thread) SORRY

     

    To me however AA is a piece of shit !

    old school skill system that doesn't work unless you select a target, really ? WTF !!!

    I could NOT uninstall fast enough, and they expect people to actually pay for that crap ?!

     

    I'd rather play ESO than AA and I don't like ESO either but damn even ESO understood that times have changed.

    DEVS need to learn from GW2, say what you want about it but it is a successful game for a good reason PERIOD.

     

    I abhor GW2 PvP - it's beyond awful to me - again different tastes.

     

    (not directed to you) - but anyone who says that AA PvP requires no skill is on crack

     

    ArcheAge level 50 PvP video (darkrunner build)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux2YMz5SOBU

    True that!

    I will take GW2s action combat over the older style combat. AA may offer awesome combat with what it has to offer, but I like the newer action based systems like in GW2 or WS.

    Like you said, different tastes. And that is what makes gaming great is that it isn't the same for everyone or we would all be playing Pong still. (Yes I am that old, thank you)

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

    Explain to me how there is no progression in Guild Wars 2?

    ESO and GW2 combat is superior to AA. It takes no skill whatsoever to Tab Target. None.

    Oh man you are SO wrong here.

    Skilled PvP players absolutely dominate in AA - I've seen a darkrunner solo an entire group - sure he was at 10-15% health for most of the fight but talk about skillful execution.

    Tab targeting doesn't make it "no skill whatsoever" - that is just 100% absurd to the point of sound trollish, sorry.

    Agreed, and the same is true for GW2 as well.

    PvP generally takes plenty of skill no matter what game you play unless you gank noobs with a vet, that takes zero skill in any game.

    That said, I think having levels in a PvP game is a mistake. PvP games should have a rather slim progression or whoever have the better character (higher level, better gear) gets a huge advantage which do limit how much skill the stronger player needs. Picking your fights still takes some skill and every time you fight someone that is equal or close do as well but what OP calls "no progression" is actually an advantage in PvP since it makes the combat part more interesting.

    Not that both GW2 and AA couldn't be improved PvP wise or anything... 

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 8,060
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    MMO's really went down hill when people started saying that a "cute robe" was better then a "powerful robe"

     

    That's a problematic statement. 

     

    You're placing too much emphasis on progression and not enough on gameplay. It is far more important that content be of good quality that is worth repeating or at least exploring than it is that it reward you with numbers or skills or any other form of progression. And MMOs have often failed to deliver on this since their birth. To be an MMO is rarely to be a good game and to be a good game is rarely to be a good MMO. 

     

    Why? Because MMOs are typically more concerned with longevity than with good game design. Most of an average MMO - the leveling content - is wasted content because it holds no value for most of the gameplay experience - endgame. They aren't above grind-based mechanics and intentional stalling mechanics (such as slow travel or time-locked raids); if anything, the use of these is encouraged in the philosophy of "good MMO design" as it lengthens the playing process. 

    A good game is concerned first and foremost with quality and ease-of-use. Now, I'm not referring to difficulty or to simplicity when I say "ease of use." I am only referring to basic streamlining - making content accessible and comfortable while encompassing any level of challenge or depth that the developers see fit to implement. 

     

     

    With all of that said, I am going to make the unpopular statement of calling Guild Wars 2 a good game but a bad MMO. It has all of the trademarks of a good game. It has a fun leveling experience. Most of its content is fun, even if it isn't rewarding. Its art is phenomenal. Its music is phenomenal. Its philosophies are daring and inventive. But it isn't a good MMO, because there isn't enough to do post-80. And that really doesn't have anything to do with gear. It has everything to do with a game that doesn't expand player's playstyle and build options enough and doesn't complement its own design philosophies with content that takes advantage of them. 

  • AmjocoAmjoco Member UncommonPosts: 4,860
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    Ok you call it horizontal progression....yet you get NEW abilites to further your toon right? so why would I have a problem with that? THATS PROGRESSION! 

     

    and gw2 had none of that.....I got bored with that game after 1 month lol

     

    MMO's really went down hill when people started saying that a "cute robe" was better then a "powerful robe"

    Then why would you be foolish enough to buy a game like this? The game was hyped for months and months that there would be no gear treadmill and yet you buy the game only to complain about the very fact.  

    You should probably stop now. After saying GW2 isn't an MMO, and then complaining because it doesn't have gear progression after you purchased it,  just makes you look silly.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • TalketzantoTalketzanto Member UncommonPosts: 205
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    Ok you call it horizontal progression....yet you get NEW abilites to further your toon right? so why would I have a problem with that? THATS PROGRESSION! 

     

    and gw2 had none of that.....I got bored with that game after 1 month lol

     

    MMO's really went down hill when people started saying that a "cute robe" was better then a "powerful robe"

    Then why would you be foolish enough to buy a game like this? The game was hyped for months and months that there would be no gear treadmill and yet you buy the game only to complain about the very fact.  

    You should probably stop now. After saying GW2 isn't an MMO, and then complaining because it doesn't have gear progression after you purchased it,  just makes you look silly.

    good pickup game, bad mmo...huge difference bud....I can see why you don't get what im saying :P

  • JDis25JDis25 Member RarePosts: 1,353

    GW2 is an MMO, it just isn't a traditional MMORPG in the sense that levels don't matter in PvP. So there is no progression on the PvP front. I think there may be some gear progression with the RvR but I didn't get much into that.

     

    It is not about the combat system that will make or break a game. Combat is only one piece of the pie and it all gets stale after awhile unless you have to ability to play multiple builds on one character. That is the key, doesn't matter what combat system you have. Tab Target, Action Combat, telegraphs, etc.

     

    Personally I like Tab Target, I like pure ability pvp rather then dodging, blocking and aiming skills coming into play. That isn't how I like my combat. You can tell me that is "in the past" "get with the times", but i still prefer it.

    Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War
    Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
  • Eir_SEir_S Member UncommonPosts: 4,440
    Vertical progression, horizontal progression, I don't care, at the end of the day I'd rather play either ESO or GW2 than AA for a TON of reasons I've already listed over the months and years.  *shrug*  I just expected better.
  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,870
    Originally posted by Amjoco
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    Ok you call it horizontal progression....yet you get NEW abilites to further your toon right? so why would I have a problem with that? THATS PROGRESSION! 

     

    and gw2 had none of that.....I got bored with that game after 1 month lol

     

    MMO's really went down hill when people started saying that a "cute robe" was better then a "powerful robe"

    Then why would you be foolish enough to buy a game like this? The game was hyped for months and months that there would be no gear treadmill and yet you buy the game only to complain about the very fact.  

    You should probably stop now. After saying GW2 isn't an MMO, and then complaining because it doesn't have gear progression after you purchased it,  just makes you look silly.

    Yeh I don't get this type of behavior either.  It's like buying Mario Cart and being mad that there is no boat racing or buying Bass Fishing Pro (or whatever it's called) and complaining you can't harpoon whales.  It takes hardly any effort to find out about some basic game features that are well known before buying a game. 

    I can see people complaining about trinity and progression as their reason for NOT buying GW2.  But to claim to have bought and played it for a few weeks or a month then act like you are sideswiped with the revelation that the game doesn't have the trinity or gear progression through raids (as an example) is somewhat suspect.  It makes me wonder how many of those types of posters actually bought the game versus those that only say that to add "credibility" to their statements. 

    Hmmmm, I must ponder this further...

    *sits down Indian style and scratches head*

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Member UncommonPosts: 2,759
    Originally posted by Talketzanto
    Originally posted by kaiser3282
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    GW2 good pvp but no progression so not an mmo IMO......TESO good pvp if you like 50v50 (zerging gets boring fast)...also no real point in taking keeps other then a few small buffs.....

    Both of these games have soft targeting but how hard is it to point your cursor at someone and attack? I dont think it adds skill to be honest....

     

     

    AA I enjoy because pvp can be large scale or small scale....I like that its more then just pvp (you can actually take peoples trade packs and make money off it)....

     

    I also enjoy the diversity in class makeup....More then most MMOs Ive played

     

    One last thing Ive noticed is the skill lvl seems to be high in pvp with AA, at least for me (Ive killed most people 15+ lvls then me) which again in most games usually wont happen often

     

     

    just my 2 cents

     

    BTW this was suppose to be a response to a thread (I accidently made a new thread) SORRY

    1) Progression has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not something is an MMO.

    2) Pressing TAB and locking onto a target permanently takes more skill?

    3) While AA does offer the ability to mix all of the classes, let's be honest here. You can do it, but it doesnt work well in a lot of cases. If you really want to be effective you are still pretty much forced into certain builds because certain classes simply offer nothing additional to other classes and there is no synergy between the skills. SO sure, you can feel unique by avoiding those builds, but youre also going to be much weaker than someone who uses the right combinations to add bonuses to skills of classes that synergize.

    I just said that you can call anything an MMO didn't I? Therefore to ME I think it needs some sort of progression otherwise its no different the a 1st person shooter such as COD (Which has more progression then GW2 now lol)

    Are you saying that playing in 3rd person makes it an MMO? just because you can play online does not mean it should fall into that catagory anymore (its not 10 years ago when there were 3 games online)

     

    I never once said that tab targeting took more skill, I said that I don't think soft targeting takes any MORE skill....its not like you have to have pinpoint accuracy to hit someone (You just have to be in the area of someone)...

     

    On your last note ive seen many people with (odd) builds that rocked in pvp....Just because people throw around "darkrunner" and "primeval"  does not mean there isn't counters to those classes. Those are just the cookie cutter classes that people think are ingenious. 

     

    I fought plenty of these "OP" classes that were much higher level then me and I won. So either Im far superior skill wise, or that bullshit about certain classes being viable is bullshit...

    Progression would be relevant to whether or not something is a specific genre of games like an RPG. Again, zero to do with MMO. MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online.  SO yes, being an online game would be one of the requirements to fullfill that, not progression or any other mechanics / systems. An FPS can be an MMO too. If they made a CoD with a persistent online world where players can interact with eachother in that world, it would be an MMO just fine. But an MMOFPS, not an MMORPG. See how this works?

  • KarbleKarble Member UncommonPosts: 750

    Guildwars 2 had some interesting concepts but failed on full execution.

    Everyone can revive?

    Everyone gets agro?

    Everyone is tank by rolling around on the ground and stuns?

    Nobody can really truly become good at the trinity system since there are softcaps on every stats effectiveness?

    Was the combat fun sometimes? Yes.

    Could the Combat have been 10X more fun if soft caps were gone and people could actually feel like a specialized part of a team instead of a bunch of dps roll revive freaks? Yes

     

    Teso failed for me before the word go. I installed it, tried swimming under water......then uninstalled it. Such an immersion killing waist of hard disk space.

     

    ArcheAge is obviously a superior game with glider and mount combat, pets that help, character combos and skills that are excellent and balance eachother in groups with classic trinity.

    Oh and boats with cannons, sonar? Submarines with torpedos? Siege weapons.....there is alot going on in ArcheAge.

  • An4thorAn4thor Member Posts: 524
    Originally posted by Karble

    Guildwars 2 had some interesting concepts but failed on full execution.

    Everyone can revive?

    Everyone gets agro?

    Everyone is tank by rolling around on the ground and stuns?

    Nobody can really truly become good at the trinity system since there are softcaps on every stats effectiveness?

    Was the combat fun sometimes? Yes.

    Could the Combat have been 10X more fun if soft caps were gone and people could actually feel like a specialized part of a team instead of a bunch of dps roll revive freaks? Yes

     

    Teso failed for me before the word go. I installed it, tried swimming under water......then uninstalled it. Such an immersion killing waist of hard disk space.

     

    ArcheAge is obviously a superior game with glider and mount combat, pets that help, character combos and skills that are excellent and balance eachother in groups with classic trinity.

    Oh and boats with cannons, sonar? Submarines with torpedos? Siege weapons.....there is alot going on in ArcheAge.

    It's sad that people can't see past the shiny quest marks. It's like flies hitting full speed the streat lights attracted by the shiny object as if there was nowhere else to go.

  • TalketzantoTalketzanto Member UncommonPosts: 205

    I think people today have forgot where MMOs came from and all they want is change change change.....Some things that made this genre great should not be changed at all (don't fix whats not broken)

     

    Everyone wants everything without putting any work into it. MMOs were and should be "you get what you put in".

     

    As far as vertical progression goes, why shouldn't there be any? Why shouldn't someone who puts in more time get better gear? If you can't put in time then NO you shouldn't be on equal footing as someone who does right? (I don't have a ton of time to play but at least I understand this concept)

     

    Unfortunately the casual gamer has decided to join the masses online and that's why companies are being forced to change things to accommodate them (honestly you can't make both happy)

     

     

  • rodingorodingo Member RarePosts: 2,870
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    As far as vertical progression goes, why shouldn't there be any? Why shouldn't someone who puts in more time get better gear? If you can't put in time then NO you shouldn't be on equal footing as someone who does right? (I don't have a ton of time to play but at least I understand this concept)

    Unfortunately the casual gamer has decided to join the masses online and that's why companies are being forced to change things to accommodate them (honestly you can't make both happy)

    The only MMO I have seen that dared to break the mold and do things different that does things with out a focus on gear is GW2.  So what are all these other MMOs that are being released without raids or gear progression that developers have been "forced" to make?  Is there really a shortage of trinity based, gear progression MMOs?  I think not.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • TalketzantoTalketzanto Member UncommonPosts: 205
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    As far as vertical progression goes, why shouldn't there be any? Why shouldn't someone who puts in more time get better gear? If you can't put in time then NO you shouldn't be on equal footing as someone who does right? (I don't have a ton of time to play but at least I understand this concept)

    Unfortunately the casual gamer has decided to join the masses online and that's why companies are being forced to change things to accommodate them (honestly you can't make both happy)

    The only MMO I have seen that dared to break the mold and do things different that does things with out a focus on gear is GW2.  So what are all these other MMOs that are being released without raids or gear progression that developers have been "forced" to make?  Is there really a shortage of trinity based, gear progression MMOs?  I think not.

    Are you saying games were not changed to help keep progression easy for the casual player? Is gearing in WOW still take forever? or can you gear up in less then a week? Are there alot of FULL LOOT games out there anymore? Does dying even matter in most games anymore?

     

    The answer is most games old and new are making it much easier to obtain the best gear (so in a way yea they are changing progression even if not being eliminated totally)

     

    GW2 is trash because everyone can do everything! Everyone can heal, Everyone can res, Everyone can tank, Everyone can dps.....ohh and the "finish him" in pvp might be the dumbest concept ever created! GJ gw2 on making everyone the same.

     

    Lets just make everyone the same with 0 gear and we will take the MMO market by storm!

  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 8,060
    Originally posted by Talketzanto

    I think people today have forgot where MMOs came from and all they want is change change change.....Some things that made this genre great should not be changed at all (don't fix whats not broken)

     

    Everyone wants everything without putting any work into it. MMOs were and should be "you get what you put in".

     

    As far as vertical progression goes, why shouldn't there be any? Why shouldn't someone who puts in more time get better gear? If you can't put in time then NO you shouldn't be on equal footing as someone who does right? (I don't have a ton of time to play but at least I understand this concept)

     

    Unfortunately the casual gamer has decided to join the masses online and that's why companies are being forced to change things to accommodate them (honestly you can't make both happy)

     

     

     

    Again, you've misplaced the blame.

     

    It isn't that old mechanics must be replaced and "change change change" is absolutely necessary for a new title to work out. 

     

    It's all about having a specific vision, filling market niches, creating new games that round out existing offerings, and finding a dedicated player base that appreciates your game for what it is.

     

    We HAVE gear-grinders in great numbers. We have our WoWs and our Wildstars. We have our Everquests and our Perfect Worlds. We have our ArcheAges. We have our Rifts.

     

    But we also have new evolving markets that, while they may not appeal to YOU, they do appeal to someone. That's why action combat is becoming a thing. That's why horizontal progression is making its way into titles that are envisioned around its usage. That's why vertical progression isn't the end-all-be-all for every single game under the sun. 

     

    It is impossible to make a healthy gaming market through stagnation and redundancy. The only thing accomplished by a refusal to change existing traditions for any new title is an excess of competition for a gaming audience that will not grow. It excludes entire markets of players and prevents any means of improvement - and yes, even tradition can be improved through applicable discoveries found through experimentation. 

     

    Innovation is a good thing. It just isn't your thing. 

     

     

     

    Edit:

     

    Also, the "don't fix what isn't broken" argument is hands down the worst argument in human history. It operates on multiple flawed assumptions. First and foremost, it makes the assumption that the established way of doing things is the only way of doing things - that there can be no other "non-broken" ways of accomplishing a task. It also makes the flawed assumption that the current way of doing something is the best way - that it cannot be improved or that a task cannot be made more efficient through developing a new, superior method.

     

    "Don't fix what isn't broken" is the problem with the genre. It has always been the problem with the genre and always will be the problem with this genre until developers learn how to think for themselves, find their own passions and their own markets, and stop listening to individuals that are already well-covered by another market. You cannot please everyone.

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