Lol you have highlighted a problem with modern MMO - you run out of things to do at max level. Good mmorg don't end like single player games, where you have to replay with a different char to find content. what should happen is that people have so much fun in their main that they struggle to find time to try out alts- that's the sign of a healthy mmorpg.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
well all my friends got Wildstar, while i didn't as am sticking to ESO since am one of TES fans and happy with the game, what i noticed is that all of them have loved the game for the first month or so and suddenly stopped playing for some reason, am not really sure why they did so, but it seems like they were burned out of it.
for me i did try the game like 3 times in order to follow my friends, but i couldn't stand it tbh, the questing and combat felt really boring to me, but that's just me ofc.
Okay, i made a small experiment tonight by creating both faction characters in TOR on all starting planets. I also visited Dromund Kaas, Coruscant, Taris and Balmorra.
It seems that summer time isn't affecting TOR as i saw plenty of players everywhere.
Is f2p affecting TOR's beginning zones? How are the zones 35 - 45?
If wildstar was f2p or had a free trial, how would you anticipate the beginning zones?
If Wildstar was as popular an IP as Star Wars, what would you guess about its population at beginning levels?
I'm not saying Wildstar is fine - it is pretty recognizable that it is a lower population than one would expect; but comparing a sub-only games starter zones to a f2p model with one of the most lucrative IPs in the entertainment world - not a good comparison.
Now; compare Wildstar to ESO - and ESO is observably more popular than Wildstar. With the ES IP however, is it any surprise it is beating out an original concept?
If only there were another example of how a successful video game IP created an mmo and completely eclipsed the games with original concepts. Oh yeah, WoW.
Imo, there are hundreds if not thousands of variables to consider when determining what drives populations in games. I agree that the 'summer' excuse doesn't hold much weight - but TOR's beginning zones are populated because it is a f2p model and if you don't believe me, ask anyone who played when it was sub-only. Just prior to f2p, the entire game was dead. This is pretty easily found through a simple forum search.
What we are seeing with Wildstar, in my estimation, is the combined effects of:
- released into a saturated market (less demand for games in general, but especially linear quest hub theme parks)
- released sandwiched between two well known IP releases (ES and Warcraft)
- sub-only model (has always created dead starter zones in linear sub-only games)
- graphic design which doesn't appeal to males aged 15 - 25 (a large segment of the mmo market)
- designed for a more specific audience (non-casual friendly at end game)
Okay, i made a small experiment tonight by creating both faction characters in TOR on all starting planets. I also visited Dromund Kaas, Coruscant, Taris and Balmorra.
It seems that summer time isn't affecting TOR as i saw plenty of players everywhere.
Is f2p affecting TOR's beginning zones? How are the zones 35 - 45?
If wildstar was f2p or had a free trial, how would you anticipate the beginning zones?
If Wildstar was as popular an IP as Star Wars, what would you guess about its population at beginning levels?
I'm not saying Wildstar is fine - it is pretty recognizable that it is a lower population than one would expect; but comparing a sub-only games starter zones to a f2p model with one of the most lucrative IPs in the entertainment world - not a good comparison.
Now; compare Wildstar to ESO - and ESO is observably more popular than Wildstar. With the ES IP however, is it any surprise it is beating out an original concept?
If only there were another example of how a successful video game IP created an mmo and completely eclipsed the games with original concepts. Oh yeah, WoW.
Imo, there are hundreds if not thousands of variables to consider when determining what drives populations in games. I agree that the 'summer' excuse doesn't hold much weight - but TOR's beginning zones are populated because it is a f2p model and if you don't believe me, ask anyone who played when it was sub-only. Just prior to f2p, the entire game was dead. This is pretty easily found through a simple forum search.
What we are seeing with Wildstar, in my estimation, is the combined effects of:
- released into a saturated market (less demand for games in general, but especially linear quest hub theme parks)
- released sandwiched between two well known IP releases (ES and Warcraft)
- sub-only model (has always created dead starter zones in linear sub-only games)
- graphic design which doesn't appeal to males aged 15 - 25 (a large segment of the mmo market)
- designed for a more specific audience (non-casual friendly at end game)
Wonderfully put, sir!
I am wondering though why not as many people are bashing ESO seeing as it's got a bigger burden to carry as it is part of a big franchise. In my opinion it's got bigger problems than Wildstar.
I tried to love it because of the housing, but in the end I just can't.
The limited skill bar bothers me a lot more than I thought it would. I've been complaining for years about how limited character choices are in newer games compared to Anarchy Online and I guess active skill limitation is the icing on that particular crap cake.
Then I find out pugging dungeons is pure hell that really should only be done with a guild, so I never dared queue to heal one. There goes the only social activity I want to have in MMOs. I don't join guilds, but I enjoy pugging dungeons.
And leveling open world solo is painfully boring.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Okay, i made a small experiment tonight by creating both faction characters in TOR on all starting planets. I also visited Dromund Kaas, Coruscant, Taris and Balmorra.
It seems that summer time isn't affecting TOR as i saw plenty of players everywhere.
Is f2p affecting TOR's beginning zones? How are the zones 35 - 45?
If wildstar was f2p or had a free trial, how would you anticipate the beginning zones?
If Wildstar was as popular an IP as Star Wars, what would you guess about its population at beginning levels?
I'm not saying Wildstar is fine - it is pretty recognizable that it is a lower population than one would expect; but comparing a sub-only games starter zones to a f2p model with one of the most lucrative IPs in the entertainment world - not a good comparison.
Now; compare Wildstar to ESO - and ESO is observably more popular than Wildstar. With the ES IP however, is it any surprise it is beating out an original concept?
If only there were another example of how a successful video game IP created an mmo and completely eclipsed the games with original concepts. Oh yeah, WoW.
Imo, there are hundreds if not thousands of variables to consider when determining what drives populations in games. I agree that the 'summer' excuse doesn't hold much weight - but TOR's beginning zones are populated because it is a f2p model and if you don't believe me, ask anyone who played when it was sub-only. Just prior to f2p, the entire game was dead. This is pretty easily found through a simple forum search.
What we are seeing with Wildstar, in my estimation, is the combined effects of:
- released into a saturated market (less demand for games in general, but especially linear quest hub theme parks)
- released sandwiched between two well known IP releases (ES and Warcraft)
- sub-only model (has always created dead starter zones in linear sub-only games)
- graphic design which doesn't appeal to males aged 15 - 25 (a large segment of the mmo market)
- designed for a more specific audience (non-casual friendly at end game)
Wonderfully put, sir!
I am wondering though why not as many people are bashing ESO seeing as it's got a bigger burden to carry as it is part of a big franchise. In my opinion it's got bigger problems than Wildstar.
*Had bigger problems than wildstar.
ESO is still not flawless, oh of course not. But zenimax had fixed alot and i mean ALOT of things.
Your opinion is still valid though, i mean its all opinion around here.
All it takes it a few minutes of looking at Xfire (not even top 30), Raptr (5th highest played MMO now), Twitch viewer count (no one watches it), and the Subreddit (which is leaking almost 200 subs per day since the PvP patch) to realize that Wildstar is slowly bleeding out.
Wildstar is not for the casual/transient crowd. Even though it was said they still flocked to the game expecting another easy theme park.
Now they are leaving and the game will be better for it.
The problem is it's not just the casual players leaving, the hardcore players are leaving just as quickly at the moment. WildStar is bleeding subs from all angles, but I do think steps are already in play to try and curb the hemorrhaging of subscriptions. I'll eagerly await the release of the casual content /bug fixes /combat fixes and possible server merges, it will probably pull me back into WildStar for quite a while if they play their cards right.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
More specifically, the post from a high-ranking Death and Taxes raider (in case you were wondering who Death and Taxes are, they're the number 2 WS guild in the world according to http://www.wildstar-progress.com/news/ ):
When you have posts like that, from high-end raiders (not the people who say they're hardcore -- legit hardcore people)... things are not looking up.
Carbine better stop pushing out content patches and further breaking the game, and focus on fixing the problems currently affecting it. I'm sure everyone would be fine with one less drop and a month of bandaids in its place. Drops mean nothing if people aren't there to play them.
Wildstar is not for the casual/transient crowd. Even though it was said they still flocked to the game expecting another easy theme park.
Now they are leaving and the game will be better for it.
How can one be so oblivious about some well established facts is beyond me.
So, the game will be better when the "casual/transient" crowd leaves, eh? And who is going to pay the bills Sherlock? Who is going to pay for new "extra hard" quality content the so called "skilled pro's" crave for? The remaining 10 - 15% of the player base?
Do you wan't to know what the EU realm list looks this very moment? LOW, from top to bottom.
No its effecting TESO too, because i cant explain why is on 44 place (WS is in 24) in Raptr played hours. Except if Raptr is not counting hours only for TESO of all the MMO's out there...
As a person who just purchased ESo days ago, I can say it's not being effected as there are plenty of people around in lower tiers, lower overall population or not. It's still rough at times to get a solitary kill as most quest mobs still get over run by a number of players
People being around to play with is what matters to this subject (it's an MMORPG), not which game has a healthier population overall only two months in.
If they're all in the top tiers it has a negative impact on the experience in those lower tiers, further hurting retention, especially in a game based on hard dungeon runs as it's mainstay focus. Most early arguments about wildstar were in favor of the game at level 20 and it's first dungeon encounters, without people around that will not be the case, as many fans said early on that's what grabbed them and brought them fullsail into the experience. That can't be good for WS if people don't get to experience that.
ESO has a single mega server. Any game would look well populated, if the entire player base was on a single server. Even then ESO is being affected and its one of the reasons I quit. Mid levels were a ghost town. They're not a ghost now.
(yellow) That is the point I was making...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
No its effecting TESO too, because i cant explain why is on 44 place (WS is in 24) in Raptr played hours. Except if Raptr is not counting hours only for TESO of all the MMO's out there...
As a person who just purchased ESo days ago, I can say it's not being effected as there are plenty of people around in lower tiers, lower overall population or not. It's still rough at times to get a solitary kill as most quest mobs still get over run by a number of players
People being around to play with is what matters to this subject (it's an MMORPG), not which game has a healthier population overall only two months in.
If they're all in the top tiers it has a negative impact on the experience in those lower tiers, further hurting retention, especially in a game based on hard dungeon runs as it's mainstay focus. Most early arguments about wildstar were in favor of the game at level 20 and it's first dungeon encounters, without people around that will not be the case, as many fans said early on that's what grabbed them and brought them fullsail into the experience. That can't be good for WS if people don't get to experience that.
ESO has a single mega server. Any game would look well populated, if the entire player base was on a single server. Even then ESO is being affected and its one of the reasons I quit. Mid levels were a ghost town. They're not a ghost now.
(yellow) That is the point I was making...
To add to this, at least on my server (Pergo, NA PVP), the community was really really friendly at launch and my experience has been that PVP servers typically have the worst of the bunch. Without that community to bring the life into the game, the framework of the game becomes too apparent and just loses its charm.
Yeah my guess is that they will have to make an announcement of a server merge in the next month or two... or an announcement of making one megaserver. There is a 29 page post over at the official forums, which surprisingly has not been closed yet.
The first game in a very very long time that requires skill and patience, something that has been stricken from the mmo community over the last 10 years. And boy does that show right now !
Originally posted by oboc The first game in a very very long time that requires skill and patience, something that has been stricken from the mmo community over the last 10 years. And boy does that show right now !
Skill and Patience!. You havent played too many MMOs, right?.
And about the low population, this pretty much say it all.
Im not really surprised that it does not run well, just because it was never meant to be a good game.
But Im still surprised, why nearly every reviewer out there jumped the hype train and gave this "quantity-over-quality" fast-food product 80 to 90 reviews.
Yeah my guess is that they will have to make an announcement of a server merge in the next month or two... or an announcement of making one megaserver. There is a 29 page post over at the official forums, which surprisingly has not been closed yet.
Mega servers would be a step to the right direction. However, Carbine must take immediate action in order to stop the sub bleeding and to bring new people into the game.
For starters they could make the end game PvE content more accessible to a wider player base. Wildstar is first and foremost a typical gear based progression MMO and making this progress available only to a niche crowd is not viable, not in 2014.
I believe that 40 man raids should just go away and the attunement process entirely removed. The game needs 3 or 4 more 5 man dungeons. Veteran instances must be toned down so that people can actually utilize the very good LFG tool. Also they must yield better rewards.
Crafting and housing are very good but nobody pays a monthly sub just for these two features.
The problem with Wildstar is that it has not a huge IP behind it which would definitely help to push the game out of the mud like for example SW TOR or TESO have.
Originally posted by oboc The first game in a very very long time that requires skill and patience, something that has been stricken from the mmo community over the last 10 years. And boy does that show right now !
Skill and Patience!. You havent played too many MMOs, right?.
And about the low population, this pretty much say it all.
True, do not include digital sales, but everyone can have an idea of what going on.
Except Wildstar is being played more than ESO right now...we can only assume that means more sales or just a smaller crowd enjoys playing in Wildstar. Wildstar isnt sold in too many stores, most of their sales were from online.
Originally posted by oboc The first game in a very very long time that requires skill and patience, something that has been stricken from the mmo community over the last 10 years. And boy does that show right now !
Hardcore =/= challenging
This is the main issue I've been reading about WS. The grind is hardcore, not the content being hard.
"Raiding it not that hard in this game. It isn't a cake walk.. it isn't a free loot fest.. but it's not so hard that I needed to spend a month grinding out timed runs to do it."
"I am absolutely positive that I could have gone into GA after about a week or two of farming/crafting gear and be completely ready to raid GA. and I'm sure most of you could have done the exact same"
I believe there will always be a market for challenging content and games. I do not believe there is a market for hardcore grind just for the sake of it though.
Originally posted by oboc The first game in a very very long time that requires skill and patience, something that has been stricken from the mmo community over the last 10 years. And boy does that show right now !
Skill and Patience!. You havent played too many MMOs, right?.
And about the low population, this pretty much say it all.
True, do not include digital sales, but everyone can have an idea of what going on.
Except Wildstar is being played more than ESO right now...we can only assume that means more sales or just a smaller crowd enjoys playing in Wildstar. Wildstar isnt sold in too many stores, most of their sales were from online.
This post is just one of many talking about Wildstar low population and empty servers, but you are saying that is being played more than ESO.
Originally posted by oboc The first game in a very very long time that requires skill and patience, something that has been stricken from the mmo community over the last 10 years. And boy does that show right now !
Skill and Patience!. You havent played too many MMOs, right?.
And about the low population, this pretty much say it all.
True, do not include digital sales, but everyone can have an idea of what going on.
Except Wildstar is being played more than ESO right now...we can only assume that means more sales or just a smaller crowd enjoys playing in Wildstar. Wildstar isnt sold in too many stores, most of their sales were from online.
I m sure ESO, as every other big IP game, sold better than WS, but i m also sure that the retention in ESO was one of the worse in recent mmo history. Its not random that in both Raptr & Xfire WS has 2 times more the played hours of ESO every week. ESO started in 5th place (that means ppl who play ESO use Raptr aswell) and now its down to 45, while WS was on 7-8 and now its on 25. In a mmo sales doesnt say much, but retention does and WS has a better retention by a mile.
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1 Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
Comments
Everyone rushed to max level. Now the game's replay ability kicks in. Do people want to level alts?
http://gnomophobia.com
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
well all my friends got Wildstar, while i didn't as am sticking to ESO since am one of TES fans and happy with the game, what i noticed is that all of them have loved the game for the first month or so and suddenly stopped playing for some reason, am not really sure why they did so, but it seems like they were burned out of it.
for me i did try the game like 3 times in order to follow my friends, but i couldn't stand it tbh, the questing and combat felt really boring to me, but that's just me ofc.
Is f2p affecting TOR's beginning zones? How are the zones 35 - 45?
If wildstar was f2p or had a free trial, how would you anticipate the beginning zones?
If Wildstar was as popular an IP as Star Wars, what would you guess about its population at beginning levels?
I'm not saying Wildstar is fine - it is pretty recognizable that it is a lower population than one would expect; but comparing a sub-only games starter zones to a f2p model with one of the most lucrative IPs in the entertainment world - not a good comparison.
Now; compare Wildstar to ESO - and ESO is observably more popular than Wildstar. With the ES IP however, is it any surprise it is beating out an original concept?
If only there were another example of how a successful video game IP created an mmo and completely eclipsed the games with original concepts. Oh yeah, WoW.
Imo, there are hundreds if not thousands of variables to consider when determining what drives populations in games. I agree that the 'summer' excuse doesn't hold much weight - but TOR's beginning zones are populated because it is a f2p model and if you don't believe me, ask anyone who played when it was sub-only. Just prior to f2p, the entire game was dead. This is pretty easily found through a simple forum search.
What we are seeing with Wildstar, in my estimation, is the combined effects of:
- released into a saturated market (less demand for games in general, but especially linear quest hub theme parks)
- released sandwiched between two well known IP releases (ES and Warcraft)
- sub-only model (has always created dead starter zones in linear sub-only games)
- graphic design which doesn't appeal to males aged 15 - 25 (a large segment of the mmo market)
- designed for a more specific audience (non-casual friendly at end game)
Wonderfully put, sir!
I am wondering though why not as many people are bashing ESO seeing as it's got a bigger burden to carry as it is part of a big franchise. In my opinion it's got bigger problems than Wildstar.
I tried to love it because of the housing, but in the end I just can't.
The limited skill bar bothers me a lot more than I thought it would. I've been complaining for years about how limited character choices are in newer games compared to Anarchy Online and I guess active skill limitation is the icing on that particular crap cake.
Then I find out pugging dungeons is pure hell that really should only be done with a guild, so I never dared queue to heal one. There goes the only social activity I want to have in MMOs. I don't join guilds, but I enjoy pugging dungeons.
And leveling open world solo is painfully boring.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
*Had bigger problems than wildstar.
ESO is still not flawless, oh of course not. But zenimax had fixed alot and i mean ALOT of things.
Your opinion is still valid though, i mean its all opinion around here.
All it takes it a few minutes of looking at Xfire (not even top 30), Raptr (5th highest played MMO now), Twitch viewer count (no one watches it), and the Subreddit (which is leaking almost 200 subs per day since the PvP patch) to realize that Wildstar is slowly bleeding out.
Pity.
Wildstar is not for the casual/transient crowd. Even though it was said they still flocked to the game expecting another easy theme park.
Now they are leaving and the game will be better for it.
The problem is it's not just the casual players leaving, the hardcore players are leaving just as quickly at the moment. WildStar is bleeding subs from all angles, but I do think steps are already in play to try and curb the hemorrhaging of subscriptions. I'll eagerly await the release of the casual content /bug fixes /combat fixes and possible server merges, it will probably pull me back into WildStar for quite a while if they play their cards right.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
As Aeonblades said below your post, it's not just the 'casual/transient crowd' that are leaving the game. Many hardcore guilds are feeling the pain.
I'd take a look at this post:
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/100009-from-a-world-first-raider-on-raiding/
More specifically, the post from a high-ranking Death and Taxes raider (in case you were wondering who Death and Taxes are, they're the number 2 WS guild in the world according to http://www.wildstar-progress.com/news/ ):
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/100009-from-a-world-first-raider-on-raiding/?p=1090498
When you have posts like that, from high-end raiders (not the people who say they're hardcore -- legit hardcore people)... things are not looking up.
Carbine better stop pushing out content patches and further breaking the game, and focus on fixing the problems currently affecting it. I'm sure everyone would be fine with one less drop and a month of bandaids in its place. Drops mean nothing if people aren't there to play them.
How can one be so oblivious about some well established facts is beyond me.
So, the game will be better when the "casual/transient" crowd leaves, eh? And who is going to pay the bills Sherlock? Who is going to pay for new "extra hard" quality content the so called "skilled pro's" crave for? The remaining 10 - 15% of the player base?
Do you wan't to know what the EU realm list looks this very moment? LOW, from top to bottom.
Enjoy.
(yellow) That is the point I was making...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
To add to this, at least on my server (Pergo, NA PVP), the community was really really friendly at launch and my experience has been that PVP servers typically have the worst of the bunch. Without that community to bring the life into the game, the framework of the game becomes too apparent and just loses its charm.
Yeah my guess is that they will have to make an announcement of a server merge in the next month or two... or an announcement of making one megaserver. There is a 29 page post over at the official forums, which surprisingly has not been closed yet.
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/102416-any-word-on-server-merges/
We'll just have to wait and see.
Skill and Patience!. You havent played too many MMOs, right?.
And about the low population, this pretty much say it all.
WILDSTAR:
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/74776/wildstar/Global/
And ESO numbers so people cant make a comparison
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/70799/the-elder-scrolls-online/Global/
True, do not include digital sales, but everyone can have an idea of what going on.
Im not really surprised that it does not run well, just because it was never meant to be a good game.
But Im still surprised, why nearly every reviewer out there jumped the hype train and gave this "quantity-over-quality" fast-food product 80 to 90 reviews.
Hodor!
Mega servers would be a step to the right direction. However, Carbine must take immediate action in order to stop the sub bleeding and to bring new people into the game.
For starters they could make the end game PvE content more accessible to a wider player base. Wildstar is first and foremost a typical gear based progression MMO and making this progress available only to a niche crowd is not viable, not in 2014.
I believe that 40 man raids should just go away and the attunement process entirely removed. The game needs 3 or 4 more 5 man dungeons. Veteran instances must be toned down so that people can actually utilize the very good LFG tool. Also they must yield better rewards.
Crafting and housing are very good but nobody pays a monthly sub just for these two features.
The problem with Wildstar is that it has not a huge IP behind it which would definitely help to push the game out of the mud like for example SW TOR or TESO have.
Except Wildstar is being played more than ESO right now...we can only assume that means more sales or just a smaller crowd enjoys playing in Wildstar. Wildstar isnt sold in too many stores, most of their sales were from online.
Hardcore =/= challenging
This is the main issue I've been reading about WS. The grind is hardcore, not the content being hard.
"Raiding it not that hard in this game. It isn't a cake walk.. it isn't a free loot fest.. but it's not so hard that I needed to spend a month grinding out timed runs to do it."
"I am absolutely positive that I could have gone into GA after about a week or two of farming/crafting gear and be completely ready to raid GA. and I'm sure most of you could have done the exact same"
https://forums.wildstar-online.com/forums/index.php?/topic/105497-attunement-killed-end-game-original-post-here/
I believe there will always be a market for challenging content and games. I do not believe there is a market for hardcore grind just for the sake of it though.
This post is just one of many talking about Wildstar low population and empty servers, but you are saying that is being played more than ESO.
I m sure ESO, as every other big IP game, sold better than WS, but i m also sure that the retention in ESO was one of the worse in recent mmo history. Its not random that in both Raptr & Xfire WS has 2 times more the played hours of ESO every week. ESO started in 5th place (that means ppl who play ESO use Raptr aswell) and now its down to 45, while WS was on 7-8 and now its on 25. In a mmo sales doesnt say much, but retention does and WS has a better retention by a mile.
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2