While I am grateful that SOE saved the game by fixing it up a bit when they did, I so wish they had a bit of a vision and invested in developing the game further rather than just keeping it on life support. If you compare how much was done to EQ2 in the same amount of time, the difference is quite stark. Vanguard could have had another 10 years of life if it was supported properly.
SoE certainly did have a vision. they operated at a loss for well over a year fixing and adding to the game in hopes that people would start playing. Its not that they didn't try, its what they did wasn't good enough to draw people back. It is unreasonable to expect them to dump even more money than they did into the game, yet everyone seems to think otherwise.
EQ2 had 200k players. VG had 20k. That difference is also quite stark. It probably got to the point where SoE just didn't see any way to feasibly get VG profitable with even a small dev team. Yes, once it got life supported it was the final nail in the coffin, but that was nail 100 after 99 others: the coffin was already pretty firmly shut.
I just think VG did too many things poorly. the world itself always felt kind of dead. It was open and wonderful, yet lacked the charm of other worlds such as Norrath. And as someone else said, the engine. The game never felt smooth and I don't know if anything could have been done about it.
Originally posted by koboldfodder Vanguard had the best classes of any MMO, particularly the Healer classes. Cleric, Blood Mage and one of the great MMO classes, the Disciple.
Totally agree. I hate healing but Vanguard was the only mmo that made me want to play a healer due to the awesome classes.
Have to agree here, Disciple is a top 5 ever MMORPG class for me
EQ is still king for best classes overall, but VG might be #2. And really many of EQ classes didn't start to fully shine until later in the games life, VG never really had that chance to have classes evolve
For some reason I always blamed SOE for not doing enough for VG when in reality they did a lot. It just felt like they put so much more into EQ2 when in my eyes VG was the superior game.
from someone who joined the MMO forums community at large specifically to follow VG:
the great:
Class design... as mentioned above, especially the healers.
the ambient music
the environmental art
the crafting
the world size and design of the world
_____________________
the good:
the diplomacy
the mix of questing and non-handholding exploration
the EQ1 feel (would have been great if they nailed it 100%)
______________________
the bad:
The performance of the client
the NPC models
_____________________
the ugly (AKA the VERY BAD):
the voice acting
the Player character models
the animations
to me the insanely beautiful artwork of the landscapes were very much at odds with the almost comedically bad character models... and don't get me started on the mounts and mount animations... Likewise the symphony worthy score with the cringe inducing NPC speech blurbs.
(again) for me the ultimate failure of VG highlights two notions: one, that brad is great at coming up with the ideas to form the philosophical framework of an MMORPG; and two, that Brad is catastrophically bad at implementing these ideas and needs to surround himself with practical and technical people who can get him to where he needs to go.
RIP VG. If it wasnt obvious from the above, i had a love-hate relationship with the game as many did... but i pine with many many others for what it COULD have been.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Originally posted by shamall For some reason I always blamed SOE for not doing enough for VG when in reality they did a lot. It just felt like they put so much more into EQ2 when in my eyes VG was the superior game.
In the end, for every single Company, it comes down to the bottom line.
EQ2 at that time had around 250k subs, while Vanguard was struggling with 20k subs.
SOE really did throw everything they could in the first year / year and half and did amazing things.
And when they were finished with the major patch up after the first year, they had several welcome back events to allow People to come back and try the game again for 14 free days.
You failed to mention the fiasco of how "Sigil Games" by Founder Brad Mcquaid. For Vanguard was at one time touted as the spiritual successor to the original "Everquest". I beta tested Vanguard: Saga of Heroes back in the day. Mr. Brad Mcquaid was the visionary that gave us Vanguard for good and bad like you stated in execution upon gold launch.
Sigil Games, ran out of money so they launched an unpolished MMO. If I recall Brad Mcquaid for his genius as a creative game designer can be compared to present day Red 5 Studio ousting of former CEO Mr. Mark Kern. (another genius game designer but a terrible management leader)
Brad Mcquaid sold Vanguard to SOE in a Fire Sale for about $10 million dollars or so. Remember "Sigil Games" ran out of money and launched half baked which made it a living time capsule of paradise lost in a MMO game. I also read reports that Brad Mcquaid so distraught couldn't face his former Sigil employees upon all getting pink slipped. They found out in the worst possible way. Perhaps time heals all wounds due to forgetting certain pivotal details.
RIP Vanguard: SOH. Read the article listening to this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCjf28axkyk . I was with VG from the beginning rough start and all. So much potential, so little resource.
Perhaps the worst optimized mmo in history, no one could play the game when it first came out unless you had a top notch computer, even then there was lag. Shame because it was a great game if the lag did not drive you crazy
I believe history will say that a botched launch killed Vanguard, but bad design decisions didn't help matters. The game was undeniably top heavy, and the game's structure made it virtually impossible for new players to break into the game. The majority of the quests were group centric, and some of the most important quest chains in the game required a full group to complete. This made it very hard for new players to progress through the game past a certain point. At some point, SOE should've developed a single solo quest line from 1-55 similarly to what they did for the SWG NGE.
Secondly, the game world was just too big. If they consolidated the game world, they could've spent more time squashing bugs and polishing content. Because the population died off, it became difficult to locate players within the massive gameworld and 90% of the content was virtually useless.
Originally posted by eddieg50 Perhaps the worst optimized mmo in history, no one could play the game when it first came out unless you had a top notch computer, even then there was lag. Shame because it was a great game if the lag did not drive you crazy
Talk for yourself i playd it when it come out and i dident have the latest top notch computer.I ident play on highe but medium i whill remember, So dont talk like you talk for all of us
2 games I wish they would re-release with new modern graphics and engine .... EQ1 and a smooth running Vanguard. both of those would blow any newer mmo out of the water. the classes ( all ) were the best in both games .... no one has dose a necro or bard as good as EQ1 did. Necro being my favorite. could go in to a lot more detail but the people who played them, specially the one who played from the start and for many years get the concept. Right now in limbo with mmo's praying that something amazing comes along that's as good as eq1 and vanguard.
The world in VSoH was epic. I really like the classes. However I wished the game was slightly different regarding how some parts were built up, for example that the dungeons were crafted more like how they was done in EQ. I really disliked 4 dot mobs in dungeons. It meant that you could not enter them solo and adventure some while waiting for a suitable group to bring down a boss as all mobs felt like bosses in most dungeons. I am at least glad that I could affect devs during beta to decrease difficulty of mobs outside dungeons so it was at least fun there.
Vanguard was the last mmorpg to present us a world rather than a themepark. Vanguard was the last mmorpg I wanted to explore what a dungeon held deep inside because it was unknown what surprices it held. Vanguard had combat/class mechanics that still today is more inventive and interesting than most games I can think of.
Vanguard was an infant all its life, it had the right genes but living in poverty it never grew past childhood. The only mmorpg that could have raised the bar set by eq.. Well but only if it had been developed and iterated, expanded, but in 7 years it moved nowhere (significantly).
Maybe one day will come another mmorpg that is a world and not a themepark, that let players form and choose their own stories instead of having premade stories fed to them on rails.. A game in the spirit of Vanguard and Eq.
I did love this game. I just wish it was not so bug ridden and more people played it. Pity it was truly quite lovely and unique the world. Diplomacy like others mentioned here was very well done and their crafting a masterpiece.
This is what happens when a game doesn't change with times. Even EQ kept evolving over the years and is still alive. Vanguard community was against any change and would rather let the game die then change and progress.
This is actually one of the games where i think a second take would work. As pointed out the game was good at it´s core. It just failed at so many individual points that the whole game was brought down.
But when it comes down to it i am unsure anyone at this day and age is prepared to spend the kind of money it would take to build a new Vanguard. It is after all very expensive to make a MMO in this particular style.
Awesome article. I agree completely. Really wishing a Vanguard 2 is in the works. Hoping one of these other kickstarter games can do it too, like Pathfinder or something. Not holding my breath though, as the latest round of action combat games might change things in the genre for good or bad, hard to tell just yet.
What I hope other developers take away from it is all that you said, the 3 spheres of progression, the depth and beauty of a large open world setting and the plethora of races and classes to choose from. I'll also add, that each class in Vanguard had unique qualities, and many had ways to earn skills or other class specific aspects via quests or in game play. Like Necro's and finding those special spells/skills out in the game world. Really makes them feel unique. Instead of homogenizing that other MMOs do. Still annoyed at WoW for taking away Pally only quests instead of just adding quests per class, but I digress.
Here's to hoping the future of MMOs doesn't make the mistake of not learning from the past.
Vanguard was the last mmorpg to present us a world rather than a themepark. Vanguard was the last mmorpg I wanted to explore what a dungeon held deep inside because it was unknown what surprices it held. Vanguard had combat/class mechanics that still today is more inventive and interesting than most games I can think of.
Vanguard was an infant all its life, it had the right genes but living in poverty it never grew past childhood. The only mmorpg that could have raised the bar set by eq.. Well but only if it had been developed and iterated, expanded, but in 7 years it moved nowhere (significantly).
Maybe one day will come another mmorpg that is a world and not a themepark, that let players form and choose their own stories instead of having premade stories fed to them on rails.. A game in the spirit of Vanguard and Eq.
Vanguard was certainly a themepark in my eyes as to me the #1 feature of a themepark is quest hub design which Vanguard certainly had. You could maybe say it was a hybrid themepark/whatever you would call EQ1.
A lot of people look at SOE as the place MMOs go to die. Specifically MXO and VG, but I think that's a little unfair.
SOE is one of the oldest and biggest dedicated MMORPG development companies. They've consistently tried new ideas and reaching new markets and yes they have tried to buy a resurrect failing MMOs. I think they have done their best to try and fix these games and make them passable but it's not an easy job and I think they unfortunately learned the hard way that it's not generally feasible.
I really dislike the crap SOE gets from the players. Yes they have made some bad decisions you don't like. And yes they are a business and try to make money however they can. Anyone who really follows the developers and even the president John Smedley can see they really are passionate gamers who really love the genre.
Unfortunately business interests and creative desire can often fight with each other and produce undesirable results. But the blind hatred many have for the fine people at SOE is so very uncalled for. They've produced some of the most interesting and different MMORPGs over the years and if WoW had never happened and changed the market forever I think most people would have a very different opinion of them. I feel like WoWs success and other subscription games' failure to compete directly resulted in the F2P phenomenon. That and the over saturation of the genre with way more games than can be realistically sustained by the consumer base.
Originally posted by shamall For some reason I always blamed SOE for not doing enough for VG when in reality they did a lot. It just felt like they put so much more into EQ2 when in my eyes VG was the superior game.
In the end, for every single Company, it comes down to the bottom line.
EQ2 at that time had around 250k subs, while Vanguard was struggling with 20k subs.
SOE really did throw everything they could in the first year / year and half and did amazing things.
And when they were finished with the major patch up after the first year, they had several welcome back events to allow People to come back and try the game again for 14 free days.
People just didn't come back.
Botched Launch killed most of the hype around this game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by shamall For some reason I always blamed SOE for not doing enough for VG when in reality they did a lot. It just felt like they put so much more into EQ2 when in my eyes VG was the superior game.
In the end, for every single Company, it comes down to the bottom line.
EQ2 at that time had around 250k subs, while Vanguard was struggling with 20k subs.
SOE really did throw everything they could in the first year / year and half and did amazing things.
And when they were finished with the major patch up after the first year, they had several welcome back events to allow People to come back and try the game again for 14 free days.
People just didn't come back.
Botched Launch killed most of the hype around this game.
What I said in the post before that.
In the oversaturated MMO market of today, you only get one chance! And that's at launch.
Sigil Games screwed up bad With launch. SOE bought them up to save it. They tried what they could, but to no avail!
The damage was already done by Sigil before and around launch period.
Was a great game. Once I was sure that the millions of players brought into this by genre by WoW was a blessing. I am no longer sure. There is simply no passion anymore, no desire for depth. Just insta gratification taken to its extreme. If this is the fault of the studios, the developers or the new zerg of players is hard to to tell. But I am sure that the passion is gone and with it the community and depth of gameplay. Real life is for the better after all thou, for all of us. The Price you evidently pay for being submerged for years can be quite astronomical.
Comments
SoE certainly did have a vision. they operated at a loss for well over a year fixing and adding to the game in hopes that people would start playing. Its not that they didn't try, its what they did wasn't good enough to draw people back. It is unreasonable to expect them to dump even more money than they did into the game, yet everyone seems to think otherwise.
EQ2 had 200k players. VG had 20k. That difference is also quite stark. It probably got to the point where SoE just didn't see any way to feasibly get VG profitable with even a small dev team. Yes, once it got life supported it was the final nail in the coffin, but that was nail 100 after 99 others: the coffin was already pretty firmly shut.
I just think VG did too many things poorly. the world itself always felt kind of dead. It was open and wonderful, yet lacked the charm of other worlds such as Norrath. And as someone else said, the engine. The game never felt smooth and I don't know if anything could have been done about it.
Have to agree here, Disciple is a top 5 ever MMORPG class for me
EQ is still king for best classes overall, but VG might be #2. And really many of EQ classes didn't start to fully shine until later in the games life, VG never really had that chance to have classes evolve
The Brave Do Not Fear The Grave
from someone who joined the MMO forums community at large specifically to follow VG:
the great:
Class design... as mentioned above, especially the healers.
the ambient music
the environmental art
the crafting
the world size and design of the world
_____________________
the good:
the diplomacy
the mix of questing and non-handholding exploration
the EQ1 feel (would have been great if they nailed it 100%)
______________________
the bad:
The performance of the client
the NPC models
_____________________
the ugly (AKA the VERY BAD):
the voice acting
the Player character models
the animations
to me the insanely beautiful artwork of the landscapes were very much at odds with the almost comedically bad character models... and don't get me started on the mounts and mount animations... Likewise the symphony worthy score with the cringe inducing NPC speech blurbs.
(again) for me the ultimate failure of VG highlights two notions: one, that brad is great at coming up with the ideas to form the philosophical framework of an MMORPG; and two, that Brad is catastrophically bad at implementing these ideas and needs to surround himself with practical and technical people who can get him to where he needs to go.
RIP VG. If it wasnt obvious from the above, i had a love-hate relationship with the game as many did... but i pine with many many others for what it COULD have been.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
In the end, for every single Company, it comes down to the bottom line.
EQ2 at that time had around 250k subs, while Vanguard was struggling with 20k subs.
SOE really did throw everything they could in the first year / year and half and did amazing things.
And when they were finished with the major patch up after the first year, they had several welcome back events to allow People to come back and try the game again for 14 free days.
People just didn't come back.
Hello Som,
You failed to mention the fiasco of how "Sigil Games" by Founder Brad Mcquaid. For Vanguard was at one time touted as the spiritual successor to the original "Everquest". I beta tested Vanguard: Saga of Heroes back in the day. Mr. Brad Mcquaid was the visionary that gave us Vanguard for good and bad like you stated in execution upon gold launch.
Sigil Games, ran out of money so they launched an unpolished MMO. If I recall Brad Mcquaid for his genius as a creative game designer can be compared to present day Red 5 Studio ousting of former CEO Mr. Mark Kern. (another genius game designer but a terrible management leader)
Brad Mcquaid sold Vanguard to SOE in a Fire Sale for about $10 million dollars or so. Remember "Sigil Games" ran out of money and launched half baked which made it a living time capsule of paradise lost in a MMO game. I also read reports that Brad Mcquaid so distraught couldn't face his former Sigil employees upon all getting pink slipped. They found out in the worst possible way. Perhaps time heals all wounds due to forgetting certain pivotal details.
----------------------
The Older Gamers
I believe history will say that a botched launch killed Vanguard, but bad design decisions didn't help matters. The game was undeniably top heavy, and the game's structure made it virtually impossible for new players to break into the game. The majority of the quests were group centric, and some of the most important quest chains in the game required a full group to complete. This made it very hard for new players to progress through the game past a certain point. At some point, SOE should've developed a single solo quest line from 1-55 similarly to what they did for the SWG NGE.
Secondly, the game world was just too big. If they consolidated the game world, they could've spent more time squashing bugs and polishing content. Because the population died off, it became difficult to locate players within the massive gameworld and 90% of the content was virtually useless.
Talk for yourself i playd it when it come out and i dident have the latest top notch computer.I ident play on highe but medium i whill remember, So dont talk like you talk for all of us
x1muft.png
x1muft.png
Vanguard was the last mmorpg to present us a world rather than a themepark. Vanguard was the last mmorpg I wanted to explore what a dungeon held deep inside because it was unknown what surprices it held. Vanguard had combat/class mechanics that still today is more inventive and interesting than most games I can think of.
Vanguard was an infant all its life, it had the right genes but living in poverty it never grew past childhood. The only mmorpg that could have raised the bar set by eq.. Well but only if it had been developed and iterated, expanded, but in 7 years it moved nowhere (significantly).
Maybe one day will come another mmorpg that is a world and not a themepark, that let players form and choose their own stories instead of having premade stories fed to them on rails.. A game in the spirit of Vanguard and Eq.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
This is what happens when a game doesn't change with times. Even EQ kept evolving over the years and is still alive. Vanguard community was against any change and would rather let the game die then change and progress.
Well be careful what you wish for.
This is actually one of the games where i think a second take would work. As pointed out the game was good at it´s core. It just failed at so many individual points that the whole game was brought down.
But when it comes down to it i am unsure anyone at this day and age is prepared to spend the kind of money it would take to build a new Vanguard. It is after all very expensive to make a MMO in this particular style.
This have been a good conversation
Awesome article. I agree completely. Really wishing a Vanguard 2 is in the works. Hoping one of these other kickstarter games can do it too, like Pathfinder or something. Not holding my breath though, as the latest round of action combat games might change things in the genre for good or bad, hard to tell just yet.
What I hope other developers take away from it is all that you said, the 3 spheres of progression, the depth and beauty of a large open world setting and the plethora of races and classes to choose from. I'll also add, that each class in Vanguard had unique qualities, and many had ways to earn skills or other class specific aspects via quests or in game play. Like Necro's and finding those special spells/skills out in the game world. Really makes them feel unique. Instead of homogenizing that other MMOs do. Still annoyed at WoW for taking away Pally only quests instead of just adding quests per class, but I digress.
Here's to hoping the future of MMOs doesn't make the mistake of not learning from the past.
Vanguard was certainly a themepark in my eyes as to me the #1 feature of a themepark is quest hub design which Vanguard certainly had. You could maybe say it was a hybrid themepark/whatever you would call EQ1.
SOE is one of the oldest and biggest dedicated MMORPG development companies. They've consistently tried new ideas and reaching new markets and yes they have tried to buy a resurrect failing MMOs. I think they have done their best to try and fix these games and make them passable but it's not an easy job and I think they unfortunately learned the hard way that it's not generally feasible.
I really dislike the crap SOE gets from the players. Yes they have made some bad decisions you don't like. And yes they are a business and try to make money however they can. Anyone who really follows the developers and even the president John Smedley can see they really are passionate gamers who really love the genre.
Unfortunately business interests and creative desire can often fight with each other and produce undesirable results. But the blind hatred many have for the fine people at SOE is so very uncalled for. They've produced some of the most interesting and different MMORPGs over the years and if WoW had never happened and changed the market forever I think most people would have a very different opinion of them. I feel like WoWs success and other subscription games' failure to compete directly resulted in the F2P phenomenon. That and the over saturation of the genre with way more games than can be realistically sustained by the consumer base.
Botched Launch killed most of the hype around this game.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
What I said in the post before that.
In the oversaturated MMO market of today, you only get one chance! And that's at launch.
Sigil Games screwed up bad With launch. SOE bought them up to save it. They tried what they could, but to no avail!
The damage was already done by Sigil before and around launch period.