Isn't EVE both Horizontal and Vertical in terms of progression? Also, it's not really a great example. While the game is a successful game, I don't think it has the draw where anything like it will ever be big enough. EVE has plenty of active subscriptions, but how many active players does it have compared? When you remove multi-boxing and Multi-accounts from the equation, you are left with the number of people who play the game, That number won't be nearly as impressive as subscriptions.
Are you saying you think the progression system is a major factor in making EVE a niche game? I don't agree, but would be curious to hear your rationale if you think that.
Also just feel compelled to point out that there's nothing wrong with being a well designed game that knows and serves its niche and people paying for multiple accounts contribute the same amount of money to the game as more players playing for single accounts.
Level restrictioned open world pvp would solve the problem with pvp being exclusively end-game content. Make it either harder for highly progressed players attacking lower ones with either penalties or outright game restrictions. Make it so progressing to the end game is just as fun as the end game itself.
If it takes you less than 3 months to get your character to max level, then the game didn't do enough of a good job. It should take an average player a year to get to that level.
I do think end game is important but just focusing on dungeons/raid content for end game is to narrow. There needs to be more things ay end game in order to keep more people playing as only a part of the players will even attempt raid content.
But, before worrying about that they need to keep people engaged in the game. There needs to be enough good content that will keep the most people possible around for end game. What good is it to have a lot of end game things to do if only a small portion of the player base ever gets to it?
As I see it is the problem with "endgame" that it makes 90% of the game useless, it just turns into a 3 week tutorial.
Now, if the game had 90% of it's content in the endgame there wouldn't be a problem but the game are still made like M59 and EQ with most of it in the open world for leveling purpose. They cut the times it takes to level down with at least 10 times but they still makes the game the same way anyways.
In a MMO you should spend most of the time in most of the content, everything else is a waste of loads of resources.
So there is 3 ways to go:
1. Increase the leveltimes again.
2. Have a lot less content for leveling and a lot more for the endgame.
3. Skip levels altogether and let people start in the endgame from the start.
Either of those 3 are way better than the current one.
Isn't EVE both Horizontal and Vertical in terms of progression? Also, it's not really a great example. While the game is a successful game, I don't think it has the draw where anything like it will ever be big enough. EVE has plenty of active subscriptions, but how many active players does it have compared? When you remove multi-boxing and Multi-accounts from the equation, you are left with the number of people who play the game, That number won't be nearly as impressive as subscriptions.
Are you saying you think the progression system is a major factor in making EVE a niche game? I don't agree, but would be curious to hear your rationale if you think that.
Also just feel compelled to point out that there's nothing wrong with being a well designed game that knows and serves its niche and people paying for multiple accounts contribute the same amount of money to the game as more players playing for single accounts.
Not at all, I am saying EVE is just a different game from what this discussion is about. As far as EVE being Niche...I'm not making any claims to say why. All I am saying there, is that there is a difference between the number of active players and the number of active accounts.
If I had to say what EVE is most successful at, it's in giving those who would play the game, the game they want. I know how redundant that sounds, but I really don't have much more to describe it other than those who like it, like it because. it delivers what it's supposed to. It doesn't try to appeal to those who won't like it.
To OP, problem are more PLAYERS then developers. No matter how much time developers put into incredible questing, a lot of players just rush to end to do ... WHAT??? Same dungeons over and over and over again? On the other side I'm kind of player that love questing. With all my alts. And only then I will consider engaging "end game".
End game is what happens when the content of the original game the developers wanted to make runs out of content. Basically it means the core game failed. Very few mmos have truly made a consistent product from character creation through "end game".
The big issue with mmos based on a world's surface is content designed for leveling becoming obsolete and further content becomes nothing but a repeating grind. It all means the game concept ran out and a "fix" is put in place. It is how raiding style end game first developed. It wasn't by design. It was my necessity ... and players drank the kool-aid and accepted a 100% deviation from the game's original design concept.
Traditional mmos will always run into this problem until content is truly dynamic and their worlds are truly massive where exploration is effectively eternal. Luckily this tech exists and is slowly working toward gaming. Future mmos will be about logging into a game where traveling across it's entire map takes DAYS ... not minutes or even hours. Large map rendering is the future but no amount of designers can fill such large map spaces. They must develop truly powerful dynamic content creation as well. In this case EQNext is headed in the right direction but will only be a small test platform compared to what future mmos will be like.
Asheron's Call way back in the day sort of tried this. You could run off in any direction without zone loading and simply explore ... and run into things so powerful they one shot you. This is how mmos must be eventually. With massive map rendering you can have a game that effectively never runs out of content. Even if your character is "max level" and top geared there could always be things much more powerful than you somewhere you have not explored. How powerful players become could simply be tied into so called sandbox elements of societal progression and not hard capped by developers ... yet dynamic pve content always potentially stronger because such large map spaces could never be fully controlled by players (much the same way much of our planet Earth still is wide open expanses despite thousands of years of human social growth).
Put simply mmo end game must be resolved by the game's original design. There simply shouldn't be a need to even use the term "end game". Yes this means sandbox but so entirely seamless and massive that it all simply appears endless ... within the restraints of human mortality that is. This is why space based sandbox games work so well. Space is eternal from our perspective (and also VERY empty which is why developers love it) ... there is always something new to find. This must be emulated in ground based games as well. Basically entire planets to explore must be made.
Yeah, I like to progress. I either want to level up or go through item progression via raiding. Thinking about it, item progression and level progression different systems that do the same thing. They give the player a sense of progression.
I dont know about these other games but FF14 has not only retained its player base but has increased it. I had to queue 3 times over the weekend to log onto my server and the amount of green leafed players (those with under 40h played)is quite alot.
I do feel the main reason for this is the large variety of things to do. At 50 you have a dozen things to do if you choose to partake in them. Every day i play i accomplish about 50% of the activities i would like to. Of course if raiding is your only thing then the game will grow stale fast i imagine.
I think for games with short leveling experienced, you pretty much have to focus on the end game.
If its a game with long leveling curve, or a game with no end game system(the whole game is the end game), you dont' need to worry about it.
I dont' think wildstar being end game focus is what cause the huge population drop. Nowaday, many people just buy game to try. The reality is no game have great retention rate. Even for older game, the retention rate isn't good, the only reason very few games were able to sustain is they gain new players at the rate they loss old players.
You level from 1 - 100 at a steady and enjoyable pace and then you hit cap and the game stops being enjoyable and becomes a job.
EQ and WoW took a very long time to reach level cap because it had consistant pacing from the start and people adapted to that with a goal in mind.
Another problem i have with end game is that it is run a dungeon in the hope of a low percentage drop, rinse , repeat for 12 months.
That is not fun or enjoyable game play and players are sick of that.
I agree with the OP. There is a lot of focus and emphasis on the end game. The problem with this is that everyone is after the SAME gear. People are so focused on getting the same gear from dungeon runs and raiding. And what I highlighted in yellow from above. You do the same run over and over again just to get the gear that EVERYONE has.
That's the problem. You grind for the very same stuff until you're done. Now the reason why OLD Ultima Online and Diablo 1 and 2 was so fun was that, you can grind and grind and farm. But the big difference was ALL items have randomize stats and there is no end game. It makes a game that much funner and more enjoyable to play. You can have a "longsword" as anyone else, but the stats can be completely different. But then anyone can still beat anyone PvP wise. It all just came down to how you play your character.
Get rid of end game, make all items/gear totally randomized. That's not saying that they shouldn't go out and do dungeon runs. Its just saying they shouldn't have to have a big bad ass boss at the end of the dungeon. Go out there kill stuff and have fun with people. Hell all they need to do is have some quests to lead people to dungeons or even raids. But that's it, it doesn't have to have a super long storyline as to what's at the end of it. Any game like this is something I'd love to play.
I don't felt vanilla wow take all that long to reach the level cap. I'm not sure why people keep saying that. Eventhough I'm an addicted gamer, so it could shorter for me.
FFXI is like 11 years old now and still going. I remember playing that game way back in 2003 for over 12 months strait before I reached my first level 75 (cap) with my whm. Even when I got to cap I barely did any end game. I pretty much just farmed, camped nm's, fished, did merit parties quit a bit, and skilled up. Oh also got into making prism powders with alchemy just to support the market on um. Peaple used those a lot, that and sneak oils.
I did do znm's for a few months with a linkshell. Did windurst dynamis 2 times. Other than that I didn't really toch end game stuff in that game. Played it for like around 3 years till my computer broke and took over a month to fix it. By then I moved on. now kinda wish I didn't, but I can't see myself getting back into that game after all these years now.
Man how I miss those days.
FFXIV it took me little over a month to reach cap.. Yep end game focus is very heavily focused on ffxiv arr. I swear 90 percent of the people I click on says lvl 50. Althogh I do see a few new players, but caped people clearly out numbers those. Plus everything they add in that game is for cap players with each expantian.
Originally posted by Bladestrom It's called immersion and role play.
If going through the same wagon ride for 30 times is immersion and RP, then immersion and RP is boring to me.
then you're missing the point of immersion and RP so it's not something you can understand.
If they have to involve repeating the same wagon ride for 30 times, gladly. May be you need to look at fun, rather than immersion. It is way over-rated, particularly if the game requires the player to participate in repeated, boring activities in the name of "realism".
Originally posted by Bladestrom It's called immersion and role play.
If going through the same wagon ride for 30 times is immersion and RP, then immersion and RP is boring to me.
then you're missing the point of immersion and RP so it's not something you can understand.
If they have to involve repeating the same wagon ride for 30 times, gladly. May be you need to look at fun, rather than immersion. It is way over-rated, particularly if the game requires the player to participate in repeated, boring activities in the name of "realism".
I've repeated the wagon ride a few times. But I'll also admit to re-using the "Prisoner" save. It all depends on my mood at the time I decide to spawn off a new play-through....which I'll generally do on an instant whim, typically while I am already in one play-through and/or I discover a cool new I want to try.
same ^^ down to mood. Re fun v immersion comment, that makes no sense, people immerse because they get pleasure out of it, done people don't, it's not overrated because you generally don't rate how engaged you are in a game, e.g I don't say, ooh in 23.4% needed in a game.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Personally.. I don't think it's an issue about progression or end game raiding.. Both can be fun, both can be a horrible grind.. I think it comes down simply to "FUN FACTOR".. And I think one of the biggest keys to that is variety, which helps you to avoid boredom.. The games I enjoyed the most where the games that allowed me to do a vast number of things. It didn't matter if I was playing an end game raiding toon doing dailies, or leveling an alt.. If all you do from day to day is repeat the same crap, it is just natural for most to quit.. I would and have..
I always imagined a game that has 6 or more starting points, 6+ paths to progress, and giving people the ability to jump around in the world experiencing everything within reason.. I thought GW2 was a good start into giving people progression options with multiple paths, but they too caved into "instancing" and that just isn't fun for most after time.. I always tried to find action in the open world zones in GW2, but it was rare to bump into people and most of the DE went unchecked.. Maybe because they offered lesser rewards then their instanced counterpart? I don't know..
Personally.. I don't think it's an issue about progression or end game raiding.. Both can be fun, both can be a horrible grind.. I think it comes down simply to "FUN FACTOR".. And I think one of the biggest keys to that is variety, which helps you to avoid boredom.. The games I enjoyed the most where the games that allowed me to do a vast number of things. It didn't matter if I was playing an end game raiding toon doing dailies, or leveling an alt.. If all you do from day to day is repeat the same crap, it is just natural for most to quit.. I would and have..
I always imagined a game that has 6 or more starting points, 6+ paths to progress, and giving people the ability to jump around in the world experiencing everything within reason.. I thought GW2 was a good start into giving people progression options with multiple paths, but they too caved into "instancing" and that just isn't fun for most after time.. I always tried to find action in the open world zones in GW2, but it was rare to bump into people and most of the DE went unchecked.. Maybe because they offered lesser rewards then their instanced counterpart? I don't know..
I'm not so sure it's all about fun factor. I think there needs to be more than fun factor alone. GW2 focused on that, and while it didn't entirely fail, I don't think it entirely succeeded either.
Players need a reason to log in. Something to motivate them, to drive them. It doesn't always have to be fun, but I think it does always have to lead to a reward or an accomplishment of some kind. There needs to be some work and effort to enhance the fun. Make it more valuable.
Personally.. I don't think it's an issue about progression or end game raiding.. Both can be fun, both can be a horrible grind.. I think it comes down simply to "FUN FACTOR".. And I think one of the biggest keys to that is variety, which helps you to avoid boredom.. The games I enjoyed the most where the games that allowed me to do a vast number of things. It didn't matter if I was playing an end game raiding toon doing dailies, or leveling an alt.. If all you do from day to day is repeat the same crap, it is just natural for most to quit.. I would and have..
I always imagined a game that has 6 or more starting points, 6+ paths to progress, and giving people the ability to jump around in the world experiencing everything within reason.. I thought GW2 was a good start into giving people progression options with multiple paths, but they too caved into "instancing" and that just isn't fun for most after time.. I always tried to find action in the open world zones in GW2, but it was rare to bump into people and most of the DE went unchecked.. Maybe because they offered lesser rewards then their instanced counterpart? I don't know..
I'm not so sure it's all about fun factor. I think there needs to be more than fun factor alone. GW2 focused on that, and while it didn't entirely fail, I don't think it entirely succeeded either.
Players need a reason to log in. Something to motivate them, to drive them. It doesn't always have to be fun, but I think it does always have to lead to a reward or an accomplishment of some kind. There needs to be some work and effort to enhance the fun. Make it more valuable.
I agree totally. Sorry I failed to mention that as well.. Not only does it need to be a variety of fun, but there needs to be a purpose.. Actually.. MULTIPLE purposes as well.. It has to be more then just repeating the same instance dungeon so that you can earn that brand new piece of armor after 40 times.. However, I do love things that WoW semi touched on, and what WoT does as well.. I had always thought it would be great to have a game where the fun is more about horizontal progression then vertical, similar to WoT awarding medals and ribbons.. WoW's achievement system doesn't quite fill that need.. It's missing something to make it meaningful..
OH. I think EQ1's AA system is a step in the right direction too.. Hundreds and thousands of minor buffs and abilities earned through XP..
Comments
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Are you saying you think the progression system is a major factor in making EVE a niche game? I don't agree, but would be curious to hear your rationale if you think that.
Also just feel compelled to point out that there's nothing wrong with being a well designed game that knows and serves its niche and people paying for multiple accounts contribute the same amount of money to the game as more players playing for single accounts.
Level restrictioned open world pvp would solve the problem with pvp being exclusively end-game content. Make it either harder for highly progressed players attacking lower ones with either penalties or outright game restrictions. Make it so progressing to the end game is just as fun as the end game itself.
If it takes you less than 3 months to get your character to max level, then the game didn't do enough of a good job. It should take an average player a year to get to that level.
I do think end game is important but just focusing on dungeons/raid content for end game is to narrow. There needs to be more things ay end game in order to keep more people playing as only a part of the players will even attempt raid content.
But, before worrying about that they need to keep people engaged in the game. There needs to be enough good content that will keep the most people possible around for end game. What good is it to have a lot of end game things to do if only a small portion of the player base ever gets to it?
As I see it is the problem with "endgame" that it makes 90% of the game useless, it just turns into a 3 week tutorial.
Now, if the game had 90% of it's content in the endgame there wouldn't be a problem but the game are still made like M59 and EQ with most of it in the open world for leveling purpose. They cut the times it takes to level down with at least 10 times but they still makes the game the same way anyways.
In a MMO you should spend most of the time in most of the content, everything else is a waste of loads of resources.
So there is 3 ways to go:
1. Increase the leveltimes again.
2. Have a lot less content for leveling and a lot more for the endgame.
3. Skip levels altogether and let people start in the endgame from the start.
Either of those 3 are way better than the current one.
Not at all, I am saying EVE is just a different game from what this discussion is about. As far as EVE being Niche...I'm not making any claims to say why. All I am saying there, is that there is a difference between the number of active players and the number of active accounts.
If I had to say what EVE is most successful at, it's in giving those who would play the game, the game they want. I know how redundant that sounds, but I really don't have much more to describe it other than those who like it, like it because. it delivers what it's supposed to. It doesn't try to appeal to those who won't like it.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
But it has a large passive aspect to it.
If going through the same wagon ride for 30 times is immersion and RP, then immersion and RP is boring to me.
End game is what happens when the content of the original game the developers wanted to make runs out of content. Basically it means the core game failed. Very few mmos have truly made a consistent product from character creation through "end game".
The big issue with mmos based on a world's surface is content designed for leveling becoming obsolete and further content becomes nothing but a repeating grind. It all means the game concept ran out and a "fix" is put in place. It is how raiding style end game first developed. It wasn't by design. It was my necessity ... and players drank the kool-aid and accepted a 100% deviation from the game's original design concept.
Traditional mmos will always run into this problem until content is truly dynamic and their worlds are truly massive where exploration is effectively eternal. Luckily this tech exists and is slowly working toward gaming. Future mmos will be about logging into a game where traveling across it's entire map takes DAYS ... not minutes or even hours. Large map rendering is the future but no amount of designers can fill such large map spaces. They must develop truly powerful dynamic content creation as well. In this case EQNext is headed in the right direction but will only be a small test platform compared to what future mmos will be like.
Asheron's Call way back in the day sort of tried this. You could run off in any direction without zone loading and simply explore ... and run into things so powerful they one shot you. This is how mmos must be eventually. With massive map rendering you can have a game that effectively never runs out of content. Even if your character is "max level" and top geared there could always be things much more powerful than you somewhere you have not explored. How powerful players become could simply be tied into so called sandbox elements of societal progression and not hard capped by developers ... yet dynamic pve content always potentially stronger because such large map spaces could never be fully controlled by players (much the same way much of our planet Earth still is wide open expanses despite thousands of years of human social growth).
Put simply mmo end game must be resolved by the game's original design. There simply shouldn't be a need to even use the term "end game". Yes this means sandbox but so entirely seamless and massive that it all simply appears endless ... within the restraints of human mortality that is. This is why space based sandbox games work so well. Space is eternal from our perspective (and also VERY empty which is why developers love it) ... there is always something new to find. This must be emulated in ground based games as well. Basically entire planets to explore must be made.
You stay sassy!
Yeah, I like to progress. I either want to level up or go through item progression via raiding. Thinking about it, item progression and level progression different systems that do the same thing. They give the player a sense of progression.
http://gnomophobia.com
I dont know about these other games but FF14 has not only retained its player base but has increased it. I had to queue 3 times over the weekend to log onto my server and the amount of green leafed players (those with under 40h played)is quite alot.
I do feel the main reason for this is the large variety of things to do. At 50 you have a dozen things to do if you choose to partake in them. Every day i play i accomplish about 50% of the activities i would like to. Of course if raiding is your only thing then the game will grow stale fast i imagine.
I think for games with short leveling experienced, you pretty much have to focus on the end game.
If its a game with long leveling curve, or a game with no end game system(the whole game is the end game), you dont' need to worry about it.
I dont' think wildstar being end game focus is what cause the huge population drop. Nowaday, many people just buy game to try. The reality is no game have great retention rate. Even for older game, the retention rate isn't good, the only reason very few games were able to sustain is they gain new players at the rate they loss old players.
I feel it's a pacing problem.
You level from 1 - 100 at a steady and enjoyable pace and then you hit cap and the game stops being enjoyable and becomes a job.
EQ and WoW took a very long time to reach level cap because it had consistant pacing from the start and people adapted to that with a goal in mind.
Another problem i have with end game is that it is run a dungeon in the hope of a low percentage drop, rinse , repeat for 12 months.
That is not fun or enjoyable game play and players are sick of that.
I agree with the OP. There is a lot of focus and emphasis on the end game. The problem with this is that everyone is after the SAME gear. People are so focused on getting the same gear from dungeon runs and raiding. And what I highlighted in yellow from above. You do the same run over and over again just to get the gear that EVERYONE has.
That's the problem. You grind for the very same stuff until you're done. Now the reason why OLD Ultima Online and Diablo 1 and 2 was so fun was that, you can grind and grind and farm. But the big difference was ALL items have randomize stats and there is no end game. It makes a game that much funner and more enjoyable to play. You can have a "longsword" as anyone else, but the stats can be completely different. But then anyone can still beat anyone PvP wise. It all just came down to how you play your character.
Get rid of end game, make all items/gear totally randomized. That's not saying that they shouldn't go out and do dungeon runs. Its just saying they shouldn't have to have a big bad ass boss at the end of the dungeon. Go out there kill stuff and have fun with people. Hell all they need to do is have some quests to lead people to dungeons or even raids. But that's it, it doesn't have to have a super long storyline as to what's at the end of it. Any game like this is something I'd love to play.
I don't felt vanilla wow take all that long to reach the level cap. I'm not sure why people keep saying that. Eventhough I'm an addicted gamer, so it could shorter for me.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
FFXI is like 11 years old now and still going. I remember playing that game way back in 2003 for over 12 months strait before I reached my first level 75 (cap) with my whm. Even when I got to cap I barely did any end game. I pretty much just farmed, camped nm's, fished, did merit parties quit a bit, and skilled up. Oh also got into making prism powders with alchemy just to support the market on um. Peaple used those a lot, that and sneak oils.
I did do znm's for a few months with a linkshell. Did windurst dynamis 2 times. Other than that I didn't really toch end game stuff in that game. Played it for like around 3 years till my computer broke and took over a month to fix it. By then I moved on. now kinda wish I didn't, but I can't see myself getting back into that game after all these years now.
Man how I miss those days.
FFXIV it took me little over a month to reach cap.. Yep end game focus is very heavily focused on ffxiv arr. I swear 90 percent of the people I click on says lvl 50. Althogh I do see a few new players, but caped people clearly out numbers those. Plus everything they add in that game is for cap players with each expantian.
If they have to involve repeating the same wagon ride for 30 times, gladly. May be you need to look at fun, rather than immersion. It is way over-rated, particularly if the game requires the player to participate in repeated, boring activities in the name of "realism".
I've repeated the wagon ride a few times. But I'll also admit to re-using the "Prisoner" save. It all depends on my mood at the time I decide to spawn off a new play-through....which I'll generally do on an instant whim, typically while I am already in one play-through and/or I discover a cool new I want to try.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Personally.. I don't think it's an issue about progression or end game raiding.. Both can be fun, both can be a horrible grind.. I think it comes down simply to "FUN FACTOR".. And I think one of the biggest keys to that is variety, which helps you to avoid boredom.. The games I enjoyed the most where the games that allowed me to do a vast number of things. It didn't matter if I was playing an end game raiding toon doing dailies, or leveling an alt.. If all you do from day to day is repeat the same crap, it is just natural for most to quit.. I would and have..
I always imagined a game that has 6 or more starting points, 6+ paths to progress, and giving people the ability to jump around in the world experiencing everything within reason.. I thought GW2 was a good start into giving people progression options with multiple paths, but they too caved into "instancing" and that just isn't fun for most after time.. I always tried to find action in the open world zones in GW2, but it was rare to bump into people and most of the DE went unchecked.. Maybe because they offered lesser rewards then their instanced counterpart? I don't know..
I'm not so sure it's all about fun factor. I think there needs to be more than fun factor alone. GW2 focused on that, and while it didn't entirely fail, I don't think it entirely succeeded either.
Players need a reason to log in. Something to motivate them, to drive them. It doesn't always have to be fun, but I think it does always have to lead to a reward or an accomplishment of some kind. There needs to be some work and effort to enhance the fun. Make it more valuable.
I agree totally. Sorry I failed to mention that as well.. Not only does it need to be a variety of fun, but there needs to be a purpose.. Actually.. MULTIPLE purposes as well.. It has to be more then just repeating the same instance dungeon so that you can earn that brand new piece of armor after 40 times.. However, I do love things that WoW semi touched on, and what WoT does as well.. I had always thought it would be great to have a game where the fun is more about horizontal progression then vertical, similar to WoT awarding medals and ribbons.. WoW's achievement system doesn't quite fill that need.. It's missing something to make it meaningful..
OH. I think EQ1's AA system is a step in the right direction too.. Hundreds and thousands of minor buffs and abilities earned through XP..