An MMO is supposed to be all about the comunity, that's why people play, if a Pub want to draw in Single player gamers, make a single player game.
MMO's Should have a sever death penilty, like the games of old, loading a tape game on a speky 48k playing for 20 minutes to die, spend another 20 minutes loading the game, you don't wanna die again, do you. In sp games the only problem this causes is the player will keep reloading the game until there skill level an brainpower increases enough to allow them to play on. In an MMO you can turn and should turn to the comunity.
When i started playing SWG i was struggling compleating some solo mission's to get my pilot up, they didn't have to be solo missions. after i spawned back on the ground stations someone who saw me having trouble was waiting for me, they offered me advice, gave me a great ship, bought me components and helped me though the mission as my wingman.
firstly that wouldn't of happened if it was instanced, secondly if it hadn't happened i probably wouldn't have turned to the comunity for help, as there was no real death penilty, and im quite stuborn i would have just kept pounding away death after death, oo woopie my week staff has degrated again, oh well i'll by another with the money i made from ship kills even though i died. I probably would have died 20 time before either giving up for a time, and try out a different quest. if there was a severe death penilty the first thing i would have to do would be hit the cantina, the starports, talk to people, yes talking is what people should be doing in a MMO.
It is the comunity who makes the game, and yes for all the greifers and expleatives out there, there be pleanty of nice folk who want to play the game and help.
as gor griefers, steal kill from me, i should be able to gather a group and hunt him down, bh style, and if they don't learn there lesson, with a deadly penelty you will always have them killing the comunity spirit.
there are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.
I love death penalties, and I think without them you do not get as immersed into the game as you could and it's not nearly as fun. I've played both UO pre-trammel and WoW, two games which are as far divided as a game can get on the issue as possible, and I can say with having a lot of experience in both (4+ years in UO and a level 60 on a pvp server in WoW), a UO-type death penalty makes the game more fun.
One thing that I think that is important though which a lot of players, who are not in support of a more severe death penalty, don't realize, is that UO had a magic ability which allowed the death penalty to be more fun called recall. EVERY player and character type in UO used some of their skill to level magery high enough to get the spell recall. This allowed people to use pre-marked runes and with a quick cast they could transport themselves to a spot they wanted to go (ie: like a bank to replenish their stuff). That way, if you died and you spent two-hours getting to a place and were working to kill something, all would not be lost because you could quickly get back to a bank, replenish your stuff and recall back and loot your body. It was a beautiful system and I believe it's an important spell to have in any game that considers having a serious full-loot death penalty system like UO had.
Gamers who haven't experienced UO pvp and dealth penalty simply do not know how much more fun it is than a game like WoW. It truly gets your blood pumping, and if you think WoW does that you have no idea what it's like to be immersed in a game where you are always watching your back, always ready to fight to defend not just your honor and reputation if you die (WoW has no such system that allows a player to gain a player-based reputation), but also that bow of vanquishing that you picked up from the last guy you killed
I must agree the lightness of the death penalty in games such as WoW is catastrophic to the entire experience of playing. The most attractive aspect of the MMO to myself and many others I don't doubt, is excitement of "living" in a virtual world. You can't do everything you can in the real world, but one thing you sure can do is fight. You can fight like you never dreamed in real life. It's remarkable to me how pushed aside death has become in games so centered around fighting! Please, stop catering to those who are unwilling to put their time and efforts on the line! All good things require some sort of risk and we're only running into a wall by pretending we can keep these games exciting and "white-knuckle", as it was so accurately described, by removing the consequences.
Worse than those who pamper the players who refuse to accept this kind of gameplay are the players them self who ravage our genre with their complaint. "Why should I play a game where my hours, days even, of hard work can be erased by a single unfortunate event?" I'll tell you why, because it's fun on a deeper level than any other game you can play. It's as real as it gets! I'm tired of suffering class nerfs and death penalties because these players are not ingenuitive or resilient enough for my genre! I would crawl through Lower Guk in the original Everquest, keeping one eye on my invisibility and the other making sure I was hugging each wall and safespot I had carefully mastered because I DIDN'T WANT TO DIE. Does this pluck any reality strings for anyone else? Not wanting to die?? Many of you say you don't spend your money on a game to deal with this kind of tension or stress.. but that you just want to have fun. What can I say? How can I be more honest than to tell you the truth: you're not right for this genre. This genre offers you stimulation on a level comparable to none other because the investment of one's self has no equivalent as well. You want adventure and excitement of the kill without any risk or consequence. You insult our games. MMO's like EQ taught me things as a child the same way you learn when you go away to summer camp for the first time. There's a very big, very consequential world out there. Learn the rules and the world can be your oyster, ignore the rules and you may suffer! Learn to be responsible for your actions, damnit! I don't care about gear or level or anything in WoW because I never risked anything to get there.
I could rant for hours on this but it gets me too worked up to express my thoughts on the matter concisely enough for this forum. I want to mention something though in conclusion, about 'ganking, or zerging' or whatever you want to call it when you are surprised by another player who outmatches you- be it by skill and practice or simply by out leveling or gearing you. You're right, it really, really sucks. This is undeniable. But that's where it stops as far as your assumptions go about this player induced reality. Many claim PvP combined with stronger death consequence results in some sort of cataclysmic mass confusion of death and grief in a game. Horrendously incorrect.. as the person who was speaking in favor of a stronger death penalty said, this is what brings out the best in players and the best part about the MMORPG.. the community. For as many griefers there are that spring up there will be anti-griefer players and groups and guilds that will face them. If you've played games like Shadowbane you know this is undeniable. You've been killed, I'm sorry. Stop crying, pick yourself up, and make your decision. Will you take this moment to swear yourself to growing in strength and using your power to defend others by hunting back down these griefers? Will you take a stance of neutrality and watch out only for your own hide? Will you become embittered or inspired by this cruelty and take up a life of pillaging and murder for yourself as well? These real pains and real consequences bring real emotions that provide real motivation for your characters life. Real, real, real damnit. Take a chance and maybe you'll have real memories like I do of when I was ambushed, when I retaliated, when I planned and calculated and the friends and bonds we made. When we won and lost and what was lost and gained. If you actually made it through this, thanks for reading. This is some of how I feel about this issue.
I have to agree with Frank. WoW has the worst gaming audience ever and no community from no death penalty and other kiddyfied things they did. The game would have kept me longer if it's audience wasn't obnoxious.
I think there are other ways to discourage PKing in a fun way also. I can not remember which game did this but if you Pk'ed you was labled and outlaw. I would like to see a modified version of that. I think the death penalty should be there as well but not too much to scare off the customers but enough to make you not want to die. XP Debt seems like the best way to go and maybe running back to get your equipment that is now covering your skeleton.
If you kill another player as you initiate the fight you should have a bounty placed on your head and your name or some other means of recognizing this Pker should be obvious. The bounty could be XP, Gold, or some other reward for killing the PKer. As you kill more and more players the bounty increases. Now the hunter would become the hunted. O
I also wanted to add not only is no death penalty killing the community in MMORPGs, but being a soloable game has had effects as well. I think to level a full group of 5 should be required, this forms the community. This also weeds out the tards that just want to ruin the game for others. Think about it, most soloers are anti social in the first place.
Not all are obnoxious twits but it is a great breeding ground for that attitude. Solo is about me me me me me. They are not community oriented people. Take World of Warcraft for an example one of the worst communities in a game to date.
When we going to get the Solo v/s Grouping Debate ?
Originally posted by qombi I also wanted to add not only is no death penalty killing the community in MMORPGs, but being a soloable game has had effects as well. I think to level a full group of 5 should be required, this forms the community. This also weeds out the tards that just want to ruin the game for others. Think about it, most soloers are anti social in the first place.
Not all are obnoxious twits but it is a great breeding ground for that attitude. Solo is about me me me me me. They are not community oriented people. Take World of Warcraft for an example one of the worst communities in a game to date.
When we going to get the Solo v/s Grouping Debate ?
Absolute and utter TRASH! Soloers are some of the friendliest gamers around!
It's the anti-social groupers that are the problem...they get their group of 3 to 5 all setup and never talk to ANYONE ELSE FOR THE REST OF THEIR GAME! They're the ones who run around and never accept group invites, never invite others into their group and basically do "team soloing".
I solo mostly (and accept nearly every group I get invited to, but don't generally organise to team up again...I don't like getting stuck to the one group)...and I find that it's ME who answers nearly all the questions in general chat, and ME who helps people with stuff. (I have had many comments in game about how I'm nice and friendly and actually helpful) And I find a lot of other "soloers" very much like myself.
Sorry...but you have the WRONG idea about soloers.
I am a bit new to MMO's, my first, if you will even call it one was PSO on Dreamcast. I did not play much else, besides xbox live till I heard about City of Heroes, that's when I ordered a PC just to play that game. I played till about level 15, I HATED the death penalty , the loss of exp made no sense to me, all it made for was more frustration. I felt it was a cheap was to make the game last longer. The WOW previews started hitting and I read no experience on exp loss and I freaked, I pre-ordered it and cancelled my CoH account as soon as I recieved it. Now after more than a year of playing WoW and getting a solid mmorpg experience behind me I am thinking I can now handle an exp loss mmo, WoW was a good primer, but it is easy as can be, and the expansion is about 7 months overdue already , although the patches have been good and delivered on some promised content.
Also, I think if there is going to be harsh penalties for those being murdered or ganked then the other person, the killer should have to face harsh consequences too, like maybe a bounty hunter npc starts to trail them or the police in every town are on the look out for him, etc. There should be reprecussions for that act as well.
I see many are for harder penalty, thats great, but problem is that only a very small percentage come to forums and even fraction of that read or reply to topics like this.
Im affraid it wont happen more then 5million playing wow now and growing.
Majority mmorpgs players are carebear 95% mmorpgs are carebear and i think wow sets example of how future mmorpg,s will be, EASY CAREBEAR ITEM BASED FAMELY KIDS GAMES (WOW-GW BIGGEST EXAMPLES) of that trend:(.
WoW is a very bad mmorpg overall its unbelievble that so many play it and unbelievble thats so few see its a terrible mmorpg, realy crap.
But then again majority of mmorpg players are crap and stupid and they dont come to mmorpg.com most who play wow or gw are from consoles or from CS fps games.
Yes for kids and others who act or think like 12 year olds its a great game.
But all who want more thinking, more role play, more harder pvp and more skill based pvp keep dreaming im affraid there is no money for companys in this.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
I liked PVP in UO best; The fact that you could lose all you were wearing simple created a huge adrenaline rush. I haven't found anything like it... in any game really. Especially if you were up to an equally skilled foe and the battle took some time it was quite exciting. Yeah you lost your stuff... but so what; You didn't have to pay millions for your items.
I myself am in favor of flagging 1 item as undroppable on you... Your favorite gizmo or whatever; I dunno.. a sword for a fighter.. a ring for a mage.. doesn't really matter. If you have reseve stuff you put that on. If you do not you kill some mobs en go back to work.
The one thing I truely hate is XP loss though. It sucks. You already had that skill and it's just dumb to lose that. Loss of gear is much better.
Also the red/blue system always works fine. Smell a PK
Carebears are ok, I don't have anything against them, as long they stay out of my way, what realy bothers me is that curently only way is the Carebear way
Why is that? Mass market and money, gaming industry is making more money then movie industry, it's only normal that with mindless movies come mindless games, and there will always be ppl who yell "It's just a movie!" "It's just a game!"
So nobody is actualy making games for the gamers, they are making games for dead president's, and the games itself tell that story, WOW comes first to mind when I think about any MMO(RPG????), grind, grind, grind, farm, farm, farm, just to get that item, just to have some more gold, and the true meaning of beeing able to meet new ppl is lost along the way
I'm following a game called Adellion, it's made for Gamers, by Gamers, it has perma-death and lootable corpse, but it also has player justice system, so griefer can end up in Jail and if he can't justify reasons for killing another player, he get's executed, and yeah, roleplay is forced
I understand that most ppl see this is harsh, but that's why most new games are mellow, but as long there is at least 1 game that is focused more on story and comunity then money I'll be satysfied
Death penalty is key factor is mmorpgs! I mean im playing WOW and im bored farming some mob for quest or so and i die and i say to myself "lol big deal ill just run to my corpse and continue farming". Well in UO () there was the fear the fear that somebody might found you corpse and loot you just like that and you left with no regents to go home or some red name apearing on the screen ( well not in my case coz i was a PK and when i see a blue name i see loot ^^ but hey he might kill me xD ). Is there actually pvp in WOW ? well, no You are horde and you want to kill some alliances and you go on their ground and what !? they are blue u cant attack them, I MEAN WTF? IM ON A PVP SERVER!? Instances are making players more social, LOL i love that one I've never seen a group of 40 people getting along for a long time really there is aways someone greedy and someone to say something. I've seen a guildmaster that pissed and left the guild taking the 'guild bank' well In other words instacing sucks. You'll say you dont have much friends and stuff well is there somebody who has 39 good peers !? i think no (Think of the paid tranfer, so much people changed servers just because they didnt like the people around them and wanted to play with their real friends)
hey, remember, blizzard game patch means more dmg more stats just like in diablo. Getting the numbers bigger doesnt make the game more fun, will blizzard ever learn... ohh yeah they want the money and they dont give a crap. ops forgot.
As much as we'd like to, we can't go home again. I hear it a lot, and you know Frank, I too said to myself at one time, "if only someone had the guts to bring out the viceral game like Ultima Online, nobody would ever need another game."
We have a very romantic and idealized notion of that game, but we have to keep in mind that the culture of gaming was different back then. In those times, many of us didn't even know what an MMO was. We came to UO as individuals, and formed a community of individuals in the game. Guilds were almost an afterthought, and fast internet connections were rare. Chat was done longhand, using the game server as the facilitator of every important interaction between players. Official forums were not around initially. The secondary market and third party influences were not as prevalent.
In short, it was an MMO in its purest state, with little to nothing from outside Ultima Online influencing what went on within Ultima Online.
These days, players really have no need to create a community within a game. They bring their community en masse with them in the form of their guild or clan, which is self-sustaining, self-reinforcing, and abides by its own standards of conduct. People that they already know, already trust, and who look at the game as just another activity to play with each other within. Interactions between the members are insular, meaning that it is privately facilitated through AIM, or more likely these days, voice chat, across many different games.
Unlike those days in Ultima Online, guilds are no longer a thing that the game facilitates. It exists wholly independent of the game, with its own websites, and its own communications network, and its own notion of membership that is centered around the TeamSpeak server as the social hub, and not the game server. Unlike those days in Ultima Online, gamers today do not band together spontaneously into guilds out of necessity. Rather, they come to the games already guilded, and approach the game methodically to maximize the guild's presence in opposition to everyone else.
In a sense Frank, the problem with the harsh and high stakes game you argue for, is that it presumes that everything that influences the outcomes happen within the context of play, and that individuals play these games. That was indeed true in terms of Ultima Online way back in the late '90s, because we didn't have the sort of gamer culture, and outside influences back then, like we do now.
Today, what determines in-game success or failure is only partly determined by what goes on in the game, and I would argue, the least important factor. The ones who tend to do better in the "risk versus reward" scenario don't play as individuals, but a mass of accounts who log on as needed, heap up wealth in communal accounts, and do whatever it takes to maximize their combat prowress in a very calculative, methodical, and efficient manner, for the sake of producing tangible symbols of their superiority in all areas.
And I am not even saying that it is wrong to have ambition for these things. The problem is though that most of the things that determine success or failure in the games these days have actually very little to do with the things that go on in the game, but rather, all of those things that influence the games from the outside, be it farming, professionalized guilds, teamspeak, forums, macros, etc. Its the sort of stuff you think is the essence of being in an MMO, but what I would argue, cheapens the MMO.
What made Ultima Online so good, and so exciting, is that the only thing that influenced the game was playing the game itself, and not playing to all the outside factors that made some players better than others. Each player saw himself as an individual, a hero, and a character. Not some interchangeable and disposable commodity playing a position in what some have called "geek football," for the sake of some gamehopping, 200 member geek football club.
You say that you want a stiff death penalty for losers in PvP, so that it causes more realistic behavior on the part of players. But it seems to me that when we argue that we want full looting, that the desire is not to create a death penalty, as much as it is to create a killing reward. And what do we want to reward? Specialized, PvP builds designed to "play a position," on a raid team with maximum statistical efficiency, membership in an established gaming community you can bring with you to your game, so you don't have to build relationships with outsiders (or even have to type, for that matter), and the ability to sacrifice any attempt at balance, realism, and depth for the sake of kill/loss ratios, and the transfering of wealth from the ones who are playing the game, to the twinks just gaming the game.
Sorry Frank. I wish we could go back to a time when we weren't so serious about these games, and played them like we did back in the late '90s with UO. The problem is, somewhere along the line, we as players have forgotten how we used to play UO, and EQ, and I'll repeat something I told the Vanguard fans awhile back.
Back in the old days we didn't have "DKPs." We didn't have the bandwith to logon to private clan coms. We took people as they were, took chances, and roleplayed. It was easy to find groups back then and have fun, because we didn't organize our games, our friends, and our time there as a whole like a business investor or a professional sports team would. We never let the "business of playing" interfere with the play.
Times have changed though, and we have lost that ability to put the game in perspective. Now we have "PUG bashing," and "voice freezeouts." We have more excuses why we shouldn't group with this or that particular person, than why we should. Our worlds, our friends, and our tolerance for wasted time (as if the whole point of an MMO isn't to waste time in the most enjoyable way possible), has become small. Therefore, it is no wonder why the games have become small, and the death penalties have become small. MMO gamers have become too stuffy, too judgemental, too clanish, and too obsessed with status to handle a game like UO these days.
And why? Because back in the UO days, we treated it as a game. Today however, with all the seriousness and clinical obsession with efficiency, it looks less like a jovial pasttime, and more like a boring lecture in statistics and management science.
Making death mean something is not going to bring back the passion, when there is nothing passionate anymore in how we choose to approach play.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Ahh the good ole days of UO, hours spent tracking down Big Bird and his gang of Sesame Street pkers to exact a nice revenge.
[quote=Age of Conan forums]Originally Posted by Sevensword to sum up, so far, based on opinon trends:
- Death penalty should not take player out of game for long - Force rez far enough away to avoid rez camping/ganking - No permanent loss or very minor permanent loss - XP debt, but not XP loss (do not lose levels) - Correctable item deterioration, at least... "minor item" loss, at most - Rez sickness/weakness - Blood money (already in system)[/quote]
I think this is a nice balance, though I personally lean more towards a hardcore death penalty- I can understand how that can be very aggravating for some players. Also substitute blood money for minor item loss.
Comments
An MMO is supposed to be all about the comunity, that's why people play,
if a Pub want to draw in Single player gamers, make a single player game.
MMO's Should have a sever death penilty, like the games of old, loading a tape game on a speky 48k playing for 20 minutes to die, spend another 20 minutes loading the game, you don't wanna die again, do you. In sp games the only problem this causes is the player will keep reloading the game until there skill level an brainpower increases enough to allow them to play on. In an MMO you can turn and should turn to the comunity.
When i started playing SWG i was struggling compleating some solo mission's to get my pilot up, they didn't have to be solo missions. after i spawned back on the ground stations someone who saw me having trouble was waiting for me, they offered me advice, gave me a great ship, bought me components and helped me though the mission as my wingman.
firstly that wouldn't of happened if it was instanced, secondly if it hadn't happened i probably wouldn't have turned to the comunity for help, as there was no real death penilty, and im quite stuborn i would have just kept pounding away death after death, oo woopie my week staff has degrated again, oh well i'll by another with the money i made from ship kills even though i died.
I probably would have died 20 time before either giving up for a time, and try out a different quest.
if there was a severe death penilty the first thing i would have to do would be hit the cantina, the starports, talk to people, yes talking is what people should be doing in a MMO.
It is the comunity who makes the game, and yes for all the greifers and expleatives out there, there be pleanty of nice folk who want to play the game and help.
as gor griefers, steal kill from me, i should be able to gather a group and hunt him down, bh style, and if they don't learn there lesson, with a deadly penelty you will always have them killing the comunity spirit.
there are 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary, and those who don't.
I love death penalties, and I think without them you do not get as immersed into the game as you could and it's not nearly as fun. I've played both UO pre-trammel and WoW, two games which are as far divided as a game can get on the issue as possible, and I can say with having a lot of experience in both (4+ years in UO and a level 60 on a pvp server in WoW), a UO-type death penalty makes the game more fun.
One thing that I think that is important though which a lot of players, who are not in support of a more severe death penalty, don't realize, is that UO had a magic ability which allowed the death penalty to be more fun called recall. EVERY player and character type in UO used some of their skill to level magery high enough to get the spell recall. This allowed people to use pre-marked runes and with a quick cast they could transport themselves to a spot they wanted to go (ie: like a bank to replenish their stuff). That way, if you died and you spent two-hours getting to a place and were working to kill something, all would not be lost because you could quickly get back to a bank, replenish your stuff and recall back and loot your body. It was a beautiful system and I believe it's an important spell to have in any game that considers having a serious full-loot death penalty system like UO had.
Gamers who haven't experienced UO pvp and dealth penalty simply do not know how much more fun it is than a game like WoW. It truly gets your blood pumping, and if you think WoW does that you have no idea what it's like to be immersed in a game where you are always watching your back, always ready to fight to defend not just your honor and reputation if you die (WoW has no such system that allows a player to gain a player-based reputation), but also that bow of vanquishing that you picked up from the last guy you killed
I must agree the lightness of the death penalty in games such as WoW is catastrophic to the entire experience of playing. The most attractive aspect of the MMO to myself and many others I don't doubt, is excitement of "living" in a virtual world. You can't do everything you can in the real world, but one thing you sure can do is fight. You can fight like you never dreamed in real life. It's remarkable to me how pushed aside death has become in games so centered around fighting! Please, stop catering to those who are unwilling to put their time and efforts on the line! All good things require some sort of risk and we're only running into a wall by pretending we can keep these games exciting and "white-knuckle", as it was so accurately described, by removing the consequences.
Worse than those who pamper the players who refuse to accept this kind of gameplay are the players them self who ravage our genre with their complaint. "Why should I play a game where my hours, days even, of hard work can be erased by a single unfortunate event?" I'll tell you why, because it's fun on a deeper level than any other game you can play. It's as real as it gets! I'm tired of suffering class nerfs and death penalties because these players are not ingenuitive or resilient enough for my genre! I would crawl through Lower Guk in the original Everquest, keeping one eye on my invisibility and the other making sure I was hugging each wall and safespot I had carefully mastered because I DIDN'T WANT TO DIE. Does this pluck any reality strings for anyone else? Not wanting to die?? Many of you say you don't spend your money on a game to deal with this kind of tension or stress.. but that you just want to have fun. What can I say? How can I be more honest than to tell you the truth: you're not right for this genre. This genre offers you stimulation on a level comparable to none other because the investment of one's self has no equivalent as well. You want adventure and excitement of the kill without any risk or consequence. You insult our games. MMO's like EQ taught me things as a child the same way you learn when you go away to summer camp for the first time. There's a very big, very consequential world out there. Learn the rules and the world can be your oyster, ignore the rules and you may suffer! Learn to be responsible for your actions, damnit! I don't care about gear or level or anything in WoW because I never risked anything to get there.
I could rant for hours on this but it gets me too worked up to express my thoughts on the matter concisely enough for this forum. I want to mention something though in conclusion, about 'ganking, or zerging' or whatever you want to call it when you are surprised by another player who outmatches you- be it by skill and practice or simply by out leveling or gearing you. You're right, it really, really sucks. This is undeniable. But that's where it stops as far as your assumptions go about this player induced reality. Many claim PvP combined with stronger death consequence results in some sort of cataclysmic mass confusion of death and grief in a game. Horrendously incorrect.. as the person who was speaking in favor of a stronger death penalty said, this is what brings out the best in players and the best part about the MMORPG.. the community. For as many griefers there are that spring up there will be anti-griefer players and groups and guilds that will face them. If you've played games like Shadowbane you know this is undeniable. You've been killed, I'm sorry. Stop crying, pick yourself up, and make your decision. Will you take this moment to swear yourself to growing in strength and using your power to defend others by hunting back down these griefers? Will you take a stance of neutrality and watch out only for your own hide? Will you become embittered or inspired by this cruelty and take up a life of pillaging and murder for yourself as well? These real pains and real consequences bring real emotions that provide real motivation for your characters life. Real, real, real damnit. Take a chance and maybe you'll have real memories like I do of when I was ambushed, when I retaliated, when I planned and calculated and the friends and bonds we made. When we won and lost and what was lost and gained. If you actually made it through this, thanks for reading. This is some of how I feel about this issue.
I think there are other ways to discourage PKing in a fun way also. I can not remember which game did this but if you Pk'ed you was labled and outlaw. I would like to see a modified version of that. I think the death penalty should be there as well but not too much to scare off the customers but enough to make you not want to die. XP Debt seems like the best way to go and maybe running back to get your equipment that is now covering your skeleton.
If you kill another player as you initiate the fight you should have a bounty placed on your head and your name or some other means of recognizing this Pker should be obvious. The bounty could be XP, Gold, or some other reward for killing the PKer. As you kill more and more players the bounty increases. Now the hunter would become the hunted. O
I also wanted to add not only is no death penalty killing the community in MMORPGs, but being a soloable game has had effects as well. I think to level a full group of 5 should be required, this forms the community. This also weeds out the tards that just want to ruin the game for others. Think about it, most soloers are anti social in the first place.
Not all are obnoxious twits but it is a great breeding ground for that attitude. Solo is about me me me me me. They are not community oriented people. Take World of Warcraft for an example one of the worst communities in a game to date.
When we going to get the Solo v/s Grouping Debate ?
Absolute and utter TRASH! Soloers are some of the friendliest gamers around!
It's the anti-social groupers that are the problem...they get their group of 3 to 5 all setup and never talk to ANYONE ELSE FOR THE REST OF THEIR GAME! They're the ones who run around and never accept group invites, never invite others into their group and basically do "team soloing".
I solo mostly (and accept nearly every group I get invited to, but don't generally organise to team up again...I don't like getting stuck to the one group)...and I find that it's ME who answers nearly all the questions in general chat, and ME who helps people with stuff. (I have had many comments in game about how I'm nice and friendly and actually helpful) And I find a lot of other "soloers" very much like myself.
Sorry...but you have the WRONG idea about soloers.
I am a bit new to MMO's, my first, if you will even call it one was PSO on Dreamcast. I did not play much else, besides xbox live till I heard about City of Heroes, that's when I ordered a PC just to play that game. I played till about level 15, I HATED the death penalty , the loss of exp made no sense to me, all it made for was more frustration. I felt it was a cheap was to make the game last longer. The WOW previews started hitting and I read no experience on exp loss and I freaked, I pre-ordered it and cancelled my CoH account as soon as I recieved it. Now after more than a year of playing WoW and getting a solid mmorpg experience behind me I am thinking I can now handle an exp loss mmo, WoW was a good primer, but it is easy as can be, and the expansion is about 7 months overdue already , although the patches have been good and delivered on some promised content.
Also, I think if there is going to be harsh penalties for those being murdered or ganked then the other person, the killer should have to face harsh consequences too, like maybe a bounty hunter npc starts to trail them or the police in every town are on the look out for him, etc. There should be reprecussions for that act as well.
Keep yer feet on tha' Ground !
Jahbenzi
I see many are for harder penalty, thats great, but problem is that only a very small percentage come to forums and even fraction of that read or reply to topics like this.
Im affraid it wont happen more then 5million playing wow now and growing.
Majority mmorpgs players are carebear 95% mmorpgs are carebear and i think wow sets example of how future mmorpg,s will be, EASY CAREBEAR ITEM BASED FAMELY KIDS GAMES (WOW-GW BIGGEST EXAMPLES) of that trend:(.
WoW is a very bad mmorpg overall its unbelievble that so many play it and unbelievble thats so few see its a terrible mmorpg, realy crap.
But then again majority of mmorpg players are crap and stupid and they dont come to mmorpg.com most who play wow or gw are from consoles or from CS fps games.
Yes for kids and others who act or think like 12 year olds its a great game.
But all who want more thinking, more role play, more harder pvp and more skill based pvp keep dreaming im affraid there is no money for companys in this.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
I liked PVP in UO best; The fact that you could lose all you were wearing simple created a huge adrenaline rush. I haven't found anything like it... in any game really.
Especially if you were up to an equally skilled foe and the battle took some time it was quite exciting.
Yeah you lost your stuff... but so what; You didn't have to pay millions for your items.
I myself am in favor of flagging 1 item as undroppable on you... Your favorite gizmo or whatever;
I dunno.. a sword for a fighter.. a ring for a mage.. doesn't really matter. If you have reseve stuff you put that on. If you do not you kill some mobs en go back to work.
The one thing I truely hate is XP loss though. It sucks. You already had that skill and it's just dumb to lose that. Loss of gear is much better.
Also the red/blue system always works fine. Smell a PK
No death penalty creates apathedic MMO gamers.
If you die and you dont care.
Something is very very wrong.
Should all death penalty be measured in minutes?
WOW: 5 mins to run back to corpse.
AC:DT: 5+ mins to buff, 5+ mins to work off vitae, maybe 5 min to get new DIs
Whats the apropriate time? 10 min to get back on track?
Carebears are ok, I don't have anything against them, as long they stay out of my way, what realy bothers me is that curently only way is the Carebear way
Why is that? Mass market and money, gaming industry is making more money then movie industry, it's only normal that with mindless movies come mindless games, and there will always be ppl who yell "It's just a movie!" "It's just a game!"
So nobody is actualy making games for the gamers, they are making games for dead president's, and the games itself tell that story, WOW comes first to mind when I think about any MMO(RPG????), grind, grind, grind, farm, farm, farm, just to get that item, just to have some more gold, and the true meaning of beeing able to meet new ppl is lost along the way
I'm following a game called Adellion, it's made for Gamers, by Gamers, it has perma-death and lootable corpse, but it also has player justice system, so griefer can end up in Jail and if he can't justify reasons for killing another player, he get's executed, and yeah, roleplay is forced
I understand that most ppl see this is harsh, but that's why most new games are mellow, but as long there is at least 1 game that is focused more on story and comunity then money I'll be satysfied
Death penalty is key factor is mmorpgs! I mean im playing WOW and im bored farming some mob for quest or so and i die and i say to myself "lol big deal ill just run to my corpse and continue farming". Well in UO (
Is there actually pvp in WOW ? well, no
You are horde and you want to kill some alliances and you go on their ground and what !? they are blue u cant attack them, I MEAN WTF? IM ON A PVP SERVER!?
Instances are making players more social, LOL i love that one
I've never seen a group of 40 people getting along for a long time really there is aways someone greedy and someone to say something. I've seen a guildmaster that pissed and left the guild taking the 'guild bank' well
In other words instacing sucks. You'll say you dont have much friends and stuff well is there somebody who has 39 good peers !? i think no
(Think of the paid tranfer, so much people changed servers just because they didnt like the people around them and wanted to play with their real friends)
hey, remember, blizzard game patch means more dmg more stats just like in diablo. Getting the numbers bigger doesnt make the game more fun, will blizzard ever learn... ohh yeah they want the money and they dont give a crap. ops forgot.
It's hard to live and easy to die..
As much as we'd like to, we can't go home again. I hear it a lot, and you know Frank, I too said to myself at one time, "if only someone had the guts to bring out the viceral game like Ultima Online, nobody would ever need another game."
We have a very romantic and idealized notion of that game, but we have to keep in mind that the culture of gaming was different back then. In those times, many of us didn't even know what an MMO was. We came to UO as individuals, and formed a community of individuals in the game. Guilds were almost an afterthought, and fast internet connections were rare. Chat was done longhand, using the game server as the facilitator of every important interaction between players. Official forums were not around initially. The secondary market and third party influences were not as prevalent.
In short, it was an MMO in its purest state, with little to nothing from outside Ultima Online influencing what went on within Ultima Online.
These days, players really have no need to create a community within a game. They bring their community en masse with them in the form of their guild or clan, which is self-sustaining, self-reinforcing, and abides by its own standards of conduct. People that they already know, already trust, and who look at the game as just another activity to play with each other within. Interactions between the members are insular, meaning that it is privately facilitated through AIM, or more likely these days, voice chat, across many different games.
Unlike those days in Ultima Online, guilds are no longer a thing that the game facilitates. It exists wholly independent of the game, with its own websites, and its own communications network, and its own notion of membership that is centered around the TeamSpeak server as the social hub, and not the game server. Unlike those days in Ultima Online, gamers today do not band together spontaneously into guilds out of necessity. Rather, they come to the games already guilded, and approach the game methodically to maximize the guild's presence in opposition to everyone else.
In a sense Frank, the problem with the harsh and high stakes game you argue for, is that it presumes that everything that influences the outcomes happen within the context of play, and that individuals play these games. That was indeed true in terms of Ultima Online way back in the late '90s, because we didn't have the sort of gamer culture, and outside influences back then, like we do now.
Today, what determines in-game success or failure is only partly determined by what goes on in the game, and I would argue, the least important factor. The ones who tend to do better in the "risk versus reward" scenario don't play as individuals, but a mass of accounts who log on as needed, heap up wealth in communal accounts, and do whatever it takes to maximize their combat prowress in a very calculative, methodical, and efficient manner, for the sake of producing tangible symbols of their superiority in all areas.
And I am not even saying that it is wrong to have ambition for these things. The problem is though that most of the things that determine success or failure in the games these days have actually very little to do with the things that go on in the game, but rather, all of those things that influence the games from the outside, be it farming, professionalized guilds, teamspeak, forums, macros, etc. Its the sort of stuff you think is the essence of being in an MMO, but what I would argue, cheapens the MMO.
What made Ultima Online so good, and so exciting, is that the only thing that influenced the game was playing the game itself, and not playing to all the outside factors that made some players better than others. Each player saw himself as an individual, a hero, and a character. Not some interchangeable and disposable commodity playing a position in what some have called "geek football," for the sake of some gamehopping, 200 member geek football club.
You say that you want a stiff death penalty for losers in PvP, so that it causes more realistic behavior on the part of players. But it seems to me that when we argue that we want full looting, that the desire is not to create a death penalty, as much as it is to create a killing reward. And what do we want to reward? Specialized, PvP builds designed to "play a position," on a raid team with maximum statistical efficiency, membership in an established gaming community you can bring with you to your game, so you don't have to build relationships with outsiders (or even have to type, for that matter), and the ability to sacrifice any attempt at balance, realism, and depth for the sake of kill/loss ratios, and the transfering of wealth from the ones who are playing the game, to the twinks just gaming the game.
Sorry Frank. I wish we could go back to a time when we weren't so serious about these games, and played them like we did back in the late '90s with UO. The problem is, somewhere along the line, we as players have forgotten how we used to play UO, and EQ, and I'll repeat something I told the Vanguard fans awhile back.
Back in the old days we didn't have "DKPs." We didn't have the bandwith to logon to private clan coms. We took people as they were, took chances, and roleplayed. It was easy to find groups back then and have fun, because we didn't organize our games, our friends, and our time there as a whole like a business investor or a professional sports team would. We never let the "business of playing" interfere with the play.
Times have changed though, and we have lost that ability to put the game in perspective. Now we have "PUG bashing," and "voice freezeouts." We have more excuses why we shouldn't group with this or that particular person, than why we should. Our worlds, our friends, and our tolerance for wasted time (as if the whole point of an MMO isn't to waste time in the most enjoyable way possible), has become small. Therefore, it is no wonder why the games have become small, and the death penalties have become small. MMO gamers have become too stuffy, too judgemental, too clanish, and too obsessed with status to handle a game like UO these days.
And why? Because back in the UO days, we treated it as a game. Today however, with all the seriousness and clinical obsession with efficiency, it looks less like a jovial pasttime, and more like a boring lecture in statistics and management science.
Making death mean something is not going to bring back the passion, when there is nothing passionate anymore in how we choose to approach play.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
[quote=Age of Conan forums]Originally Posted by Sevensword
to sum up, so far, based on opinon trends:
- Death penalty should not take player out of game for long
- Force rez far enough away to avoid rez camping/ganking
- No permanent loss or very minor permanent loss
- XP debt, but not XP loss (do not lose levels)
- Correctable item deterioration, at least... "minor item" loss, at most
- Rez sickness/weakness
- Blood money (already in system)[/quote]
I think this is a nice balance, though I personally lean more towards a hardcore death penalty- I can understand how that can be very aggravating for some players.
Also substitute blood money for minor item loss.
Yes-we need cruel death penalties.
Perty much rpg are now a solo grindfest.
Not much need to party.
You must be prepared to lose to win.
And there are lots of payers that do quit games realy fast-reason?
There is very litle death penalty so why quit?
Did you check out dofus-they have a hardcore server-with permanent death penalty and it's kind of popular.
In a fighting game death wouldn't even be an isue since it would be about keyboard play.
But in an rpg the gameplay itself is not super atractive and that is why it's important for you to be stratigical.
And rpg should be about strategy and team work.
Gues what is knew now-bot systems.
It's no longer necesary to even be online now-just leave your computer open and go out .
I am looking for a game with a cruel death penalty.
I say this.
If you want an easy game with close to no death penalty pay a monthly subscription in a special server.
If you don't mind a cruel death penalty play for free with everyone else-maybe add a permanent death penalty.
so there.