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skills = monthly fee, not player abilities in the game..
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Eve is not for everybody.
It's natural selection.
Let it go, don't try to convince the unwashed masses to join up, don't need em dragging down the quality of the game.
I wish you luck in your next game OP.
Hi guys. I only chanced upon this forum when I followed a link from an Eve-online.com news item.. I felt like I had to register, because there is a very important point I don't think has been covered.
Yes.. the length of time you have held an eve-online account is the primary factor in how many skill points you have.. and thus, how well you can do things in the game.
HOWEVER. The Eve training system follows a pattern known as diminishing returns. For example.. the drones skill allows you to fly one additional combat drone per level. Up to a maximum of 5.
Level 1 takes minutes to train... level 2 takes an hour or so, 3 takes hours, 4 takes tens of hours and 5 takes days.
However each level of drone skill still only allows you to fly ONE additional drone. This means that your days of training required to get that last drone do not have nearly as much impact upon your characters abilities as the few minutes required to fly the first.
This is true of every single feature in the game. If you take a 2 year old character, and a 4 month old character with the same skills... the 2 year old character will be better, yes.. but his abilities will not be vastly superior, since the first 4 months worth of skill points are worth more to your performance than the next 4.. and so on.
A system like that is very realistic - see real life for example with language skills - it does not need much time to be able to speak basic english, but every time you want to get to a higher degrade of speaking this language you need to invest more and more time - and to become perfect you will need to live nearly your whole life in the mother country - even native english speakers need a dictionary for their own language from time to time.
So in my opinion this is not just a [money invested = skill gained] equation, it does also reflect real life in a very good way without making it too complicated. It is also very good for casual players and an overall fair system - I really like it.
Ragosch
How so? His new character is still restricted just like a new player would be, here merely has more experience on what to train to get where he wants. That same info is available to any player who looks for it on the forums or in the help channels and takes the time to ask the questions. He is already able to complete with several month old players and will soon be able to compete with year old players. He isn't magically going to go from 300k SP to 20 million SP just like that, his new character is going to have to take the time to train up just like any new player would. His experience and personal skills are going to be the reason why he's winning, not his SP total.
You just keep repeating the Mantra of Time Payed = Skill and though it's quite obvious we aren't going to change your mind, we're perfectly entitled to put forth examples showing where you are wrong so that anyone else who reads this can make a more informed decision than you are. In EVE time payed = wider range of skill choice, but if a player sucks a player sucks, all the time in the world won't change that.
As I said above.. diminishing returns in Eve allow newer players to COMPETE with much older players.. very large ships like carriers and titans require years of skill training to fly effectively... and so it should be. These vessels are ridiculously powerful.. but also require the resources of entire alliances to construct and field.
The concept of "time = skills perdiod" Is hopelessly simplistic. Eve offers players a much longer lasting appeal than any other MMOG in existence,.. and as I said.. a new player might not be quite as good skills wise as an older one.. but they can at least compete.
...
send me an PM here, I will contact you ingame... I will show you how a 3 month newb like me take down a 1year menecery (sasripper? I dont remember much ^^) and 6 month pirate ( ForeverBlue - I made friend w/ him now), or at least my killmail and 1 HAC on our T1 cruiser and a BC gang... times dont count mate ... join in and feel the rage
ZZZ
Skills = Time payed, agreed.
So what?
You pay for every other MMORPG as well, but in those games you have to be at your comp for 6 hrs a day doing a very monotonous thing to train that skill. in EVE, the skills train for you, so you are actually allowed to do something productive with your time in EVE, or mabye even *gasp* have a life?
And as for your arguement, a noob player can't beat a vet player, no s***. Noob players are not supposed to be able to beat a vet, in any game. If you've played for a long time, ofcourse you are going to have high skills, high level ships with good equipment. What you are saying is that you want to be as good as the vets by only putting in half the time they have put in. What you should be doing, is hanging back and learning the game while training your skills, so when you've put in the time they've put in, then you can compete with the vets. There is no way you can jump right into the game and start blowing away capital ships in a few months, but what you can do, is get into a mid size ship and support a group of higher level characters, which would still allow you to participate and be usefull and would be a fun learning experience in EVE.
This is why I like this game. It does not requite the monotonous beating of an orc with a flaming long sword for 6 hours at a time. EVE allows me to study, hang out with friends, work, enjoy my life, then come home and use the skill i had been training all day.
completly disagree sir !
All we used in pvp was best named T1 and T2 sir, if you happened to find any HAC or AF or watever mounting a faction items to pvp dont hesistance to post it here to open my eye sir ! and a 26m SP AF pilot has less than 5% take a 2mil SP pilot Battle cruiser sir (both fitting pvp) , sir !
And I completly think that you havent fought very much in pvp, not mention of taking down belting guys and agent b****es Sir !
ZZZ
yeah yeah, laugh at the noob an hes stupid questions. ive just started eve.. just wondering.. do the skill research while offline, or is it Only when Online?
Always.
I suggest you use the eve-online forums from now on for such info, they are much more mature and helpful than this flame-fest
Always.
I suggest you use the eve-online forums from now on for such info, they are much more mature and helpful than this flame-fest
The Eve official forums more mature? hmmm.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
First off EVE's subscription number are growing, and rapidly. They are not going the other way around, some people don't mind not being the first to do something. You don't have to equal the vets skillswise to be worth anything in the game, pick what you want to focus on and make that your main goal. You can be very compitent in it in little time.
It sounds to me like you suffer from elite-ism, if you can't grind your way up ahead of everyone else then you don't want anything to do with it. Uber or nothing is what you seem to need in order for you to like EVE.
I have 2 accounts with EVE and all though I feel the game has some failings the skill system is not one of them. I am nowhere near what some of the vets have skillwise but I am no slouch either. Up until the latest expansion my miner mined as efficiently as possible skill and gearwise and with perfect refines. That account is only 4 months old if that and now I have near gear to work for and some new mining skills to get to make me even more efficient. My combat character is in a battleship and very effective with cruise missiles and I did that without even being sure what I wanted to focus on when I started playing again and spending a month in mining on that character before I decided to start the second account. And that account has only been active again for maybe 6 months and when I started back up I started from scratch because I hadn't played since launch and never got very far the first time around in game.
You don't need to "catch up", all you need to do is become effective in what you want to do. The ONLY place I see the game suffering from the vets to any degree is the economy. And the only way that is a problem is by the large amounts of old money in the game because EVE doesn't have a burn out factor like grind based MMO's.
The skill system is what keeps the game going and gives players something worth staying for so they don't get bored when they reach their level cap and don't feel like grinding another one. I think your completely backwards, the skill system gives the game longevity and retention, not the reason the game will die.
- Scaris
"What happened to you, Star Wars Galaxies? You used to look like Leia. Not quite gold bikini Leia (more like bad-British-accent-and-cinnamon-bun-hair Leia), but still Leia nonetheless. Now you look like Chewbacca." - Computer Gaming World
Personally, I have just started playing Eve a mere month ago.
Although you are true in saying the new players will never catch up to the old ones, that wont kill the game per say.... In my experience (and in my future life goals in Eve) the skills which you earn are time based because some new players are not ready! Let me explain. In WOW, EQ2, or EQ1 (kinda). Spells at the max level are very similiar to those at low levels, and a low level could play a higher level character and do alright. Now if I were to jump into a titan at this time, I would be totally destroyed....I wouldnt know what to do. However someone who have played this game since the begginging would have the skills (in game) and REAL skills and REAL knowledge to pilot one. For example, I just got my first battlecruiser....Unfrotunetly I was not ready for it and I soon found I sped a little farther then I should have along the ship tech tree.
The main key here is that there are OTHER ways to catch up on the veteran players. If the divide in veterans/newbs is so big, then newbies could gang up, group, help each other, to overcome such a huge obstacle. Although I am not saying it is that big of a deal, it does give you ability to even out hte odds.
Can someone please tell me exactly what this means?
There are "teirs" of skills. Eg, "advanced weapon upgrades" requires that you have "weapon upgrades" trained to level5 already.
In future they seem to be saying that there will be less "level5" prereq skills, but only level4 or level3.
Anyway. I just started a new character to see what the new player experience is like in RMR. I've been playing this char for less than a week, and already have 6 mill isk in the bank, 3 frigates, and a cruiser. Most of my money has been made by pirating too
And its more fun to pirate with a "newer" character, as my clone costs is like 50k isk, rather than some 100mill isk for my 3 year character.
I am having more fun in a small group with my new char than i do in the fleet battles with my old char.
<shrug>
Yes, but dont mix up your "new char" experience with that experience a real newbie has. You cannot experience how EVE is like in RMR for a newbie - just because you are no newbie anymore. What you experience now is the effect of using "experience" and "a new life" at the same time - something you cannot have in real life that easy.
So you have more fun to live this second life as a pseudo-newbie because you have the experience of your older char. If you would not have it you would make the same mistakes as any normal newbie and your fun would be of another quality as you experience it now.
Ragosch
Can someone please tell me exactly what this means?
Here is the developer quote he is talking about, might make more sence:
"We also have a number of other measures that will be introduced over time, such as Boosters and lower prerequisites for new skills, and having more level 4 requirements and fewer level 5 ones.."
Basicly the only problem with the diminishing returns of the current skill system is the fact that most tech 2 ships and equipment requiers several skills at level 5 to be flown and traing a skill from level 4 to 5 takes about 5 times as long as it take to train the same skill from 0 to 4. This requierment is something the developers by the above quote is going to use less.
"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."
Yeah. Now that they've released the ships which must, absolutely, have high skill requirements to preserve game balance (capital ships - dreadnoughts, carriers, motherships, and titans), they will hopefully go back to releasing modules and skills will lower prereqs.
As it is I've chosen to train for a dreadnought, I should have the skills to use one effectively sometime around April. :P
(BTW, that's by no means a general indication of how long it takes to train most things - dreadnoughts and other capital ships are, after a fashion, "endgame" content, and only intended for use by players who are willing to spend a long-ass time training for them. Most skills and ships take far less time to get into. For instance, you can go from frigate to cruiser to battleship in under a month, assuming you can also make enough money as a new player to buy the ships. The skills are definitely possible, however.)
-Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
my 0.2 ISK:
If someone says skill points = subscrition time, has (more-less) right. Subsctiption time = money. So skill points = money. Nothing wrong is with that as long as you know that skill points mean much, but not everything. If you dont lvl5 everything, only the most necessary things, you can match veterans in some aspects, depending on situation. Nothing is wrong with that and in my read this topic is not a complain, it tells the fact: you cant be "teh uber BBQer" with your 2 month old char, even if you are a powergamer. Its a fact and nothing is wrong with that.
So what can a youngster do? After discovering the game, getting some friends and stuff, it can do start being successful. If you chose your goals, your role, your friends wisely, no complain about skills should be taking place. Skill ponts are gathering and gathering, you will be closer and closer the top category if you make your skill plan dedicated to something.
If this is not enough for you, because you want a better character, check auctions like http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=283633. It cost much, but if you are powergamer and you think you can do better than others, gathering a few billion ISK should not be an issue. Getting a 10 mil char is about 900 M ISK. Getting that amount of money by doing lvl3 agent missions should not be a problem for a powergamer. So this means a 7-8 month old char can buy a 2.5 year char with 32 mil SP. Let me tell you this 32 mil SP char can be beaten by two 8-8 mil SP char smoothly. Thats about skills.
I think the current system is just ok. Powergamers can buy their "uber BBQer" char with OMGH4X skillpoints. I would not exchange my 25 mil char. Over 15 mil SP there is no difference between 15 mil and 25 mil, cause you own an excellently useful char already. As you train more and more, you will be able to try out more and more aspects of the game. The result is sweater if you gained this by your own blood and sweltering.
So mister "i can better than others" collect your 1B ISK and start bidding. I hope until you get that amount of ISK, you will realise, there is no real need of uber amount of SP. I hope you will find your role if you start once again.
regards:
Apply
ps: spelling errors ahoy
Ive been playing for 2 months. Within the first two weeks *without power gaming, and yes I have PL'd to the highest lvls of most of the hyped MMO's (CoH, CoV, WoW, EQ2) within weeks. Not hard, then whats left? Account Canceled out of sheer boredom. Yes, within the first 2 weeks I accumulated over 10mil isk. It really wasn't hard, and if I was still into power lvling, im sure I could I make much more. But, its irrelevant to me as the game only revolves around isk if you need to buy something big. What do you need when you first start out?
Within a month of play, you can be in a battleship if you wanted to. Again, no power lvl'ing involved. And I have yet to mention SP's.
I have since joined a smallish corp and have taken part in a few giant fleet engagements. I killed quite a few 2yr+ vets in with 1-2months worth of SP's. There are various tactics involved, so a vet may be playing a very fast but very weak ship. I may be playing with an anti-small fast ship. Guess what, I came out on top. Maybe if it is was 1v1 they could have had a chance, but they were not fitted to fight with me - and my 1month worth of SP's. I wasn't their main target as they were trying to lock a much larger ship down. Thats part of the tactics in a fleet battle. I was crushed fairly quickly by a small volley of cruise missiles, but then ANYONE in my ship no matter the SP's would have gotten ganked right then and there.
Its really not about SP's at all. Like I said, you can be in one of the most powerful ships in the game (outside of dreadnoughts, Carriers, and HAC's) within 1-2 months of play. Infact, you don't even have to be in game to accumulate SP's as has been mentioned before. So, essentially, if I wanted, I wouldn't even have to play to get to SP's. Why is that? Not b/c SP = money, but b/c SP's don't mean a whole lot in general compared to how you play the game.
Hell, if didn't mind suicide, you could take a less than 1month old character and take out a vet of 2+ years Battleship. Within less than a month you could grind another corps mining ops into the ground. Its not about the accumulated skill points in the game, its about the skill and tactics used by the player. If you have none of those - you will feel like you are only paying for SP's and nothing else, and to me thats very sad.
Its so hard to for thousands of players in WoW, or EQ2 to even hit lvl 20, and its going to take at least a year before they can participate in any of the higher lvl content. Forget about PvP, you would never take a lvl 5 up against a lvl 50. Because those are games in which lvl is the only thing thats important, well maybe 95% most important, you do have to click something for your spells, arrows, or whatever to work. Maybe the order in which you click them for your "alpha" strike makes up the other 2.5%
Whatever, I hate grinding - its like waiting in line at an amusement park that takes a couple of years to get to the ride. I prefer to get to any of the games content whenever I choose. After a while, you realize that games don't have to be about killing giant rats, and bugs. That you don't have to be in a group to do something fun. I like to solo, and within my 2mil SP's I can do just about anything I want. I may be 10% slower than the guy whos 1 year ahead of me, but in 2 weeks, it'll be 5% *without grinding. In CoH thats the difference between 1 or 2 SO's that took you 3 months to be able to use *without power lvl'ing.
I grind at work, why should I have to grind when I get home? If you think you're spending you money just to get SP's, I would say you have to. You have to pay something to play, and SP's are in the game. SP's don't dictate the content of the game - which by the way, IS the game. Most power lvl'ers miss most of it grinding to lvl 50. But then again, I played those games and there really wasn't anything to miss... Lvl 1 gameplay was the exact same as lvl 50. Just bigger mobs and l33t l00t. Thats a fact. Oh, maybe your guild/SG's/whatever get to add more rooms to your base, which outside of CoH/CoV I have yet to see a real use for. I correct myself, b/c I did have fun at lvl 40 building my SG base. It was a lot like SIM's, before you get bored and drown them all.
The next paragraph has to with proper grammar and the reasons I could care less about it. So, no more game talk from here on.
I get real tired of these guys. They forget this is just friendly online banter, not something that goes on our "permanant records."
Yes, as for grammar and spelling - if you were not able to get my point, or you have no idea what im talking about when I say "speling" instead of "spelling." I feel sorry for you, b/c you will never get the point b/c you basically were whipped into such submission by your English teacher, you are paralyzed at the sight of a missing period. Or multiple periods in a row, like ........ <--- that. Your world is truly that of a lonely individual...... wait, you do have your english teacher, im sure he/she is very impressed that you take their idea of communication as the word of god and spread it to the "undereducated" masses who's souls are in danger of burning in a firery grammatical hell. You do know that the rest of the non-english speaking world use entirely different rules of grammar to communicate? It must be amazing to you that they even survive to build giant multi-national corporations worth billions of dollars, without even thinking once about the rules and regulations of english grammar...
Thus, if you can understand and show us your grammatical prowess to make us/me feel inferior in your communistic superiority, figure this one out and get back to me when youre finished. Until then, I will write as freely as I please without your baseless comments or permission.
"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."
Thanks!
Vulnerant omnia, ultima necat.
The difference between EVE and other MMORPGs is this,
Effectiveness in EVE = time spent learning the skills + making cash + modules (in EVE by the time you've learnt the skills you already have the cash to buy the modules/ships which you can now use).
Effectiveness in most other MMORPGs = grinding XP + making cash + that uber item/weapon (trouble is you can often get the skills quick but then spend 99% of gametime trying to loot the item or make cash to buy it.)
In the end you can be effective in a Battleship in EVE in 3-6 months with proper guidance. I have taken down players twice my age 1v1, and age doesn't equal combat effectiveness by any means!
In other MMORPGS I've found I can have all my skills done within a month and then have a tedious grind to try and get that uber weapon. Without which I'm just not going to cut it against those vets as most other MMORPGS (in my opinion) boil down to a keyboard/mouse mashing competition with some ping rate thrown in for frustration.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
"Effectiveness in EVE = time spent learning the skills + making cash + modules (in EVE by the time you've learnt the skills you already have the cash to buy the modules/ships which you can now use)."
I would disagree, as to my points here and other topics on the board. IT CERTAINLY DOESNT HURT, but you dont have to have them to be an effective player. *note: Caracal missle boat as perfect example. Mining, it will speed up the process - but unless youre trying to mine ice or get a mining barge... meh. My corp has a bunch of guys who love to do this, absolving me completely of a task I dont care for - I DONT need skill points for something someone else can do for me!
"Effectiveness in most other MMORPGs = grinding XP + making cash + that uber item/weapon (trouble is you can often get the skills quick but then spend 99% of gametime trying to loot the item or make cash to buy it.)"
This is absolutely true.
"In the end you can be effective in a Battleship in EVE in 3-6 months with proper guidance. I have taken down players twice my age 1v1, and age doesn't equal combat effectiveness by any means!"
Not 3-6, 1-3. Or even 1.5 Yes, that does require guidance from the first week of character creation, and there are many topics on the eve forums that will go into great detail on how you can be effective in a BS in a short period of time. Modules are not cheap either and will take starting capital to achieve a BS in 1-3 months. The BS itself is expensive on its own, unless you mine and make one yourself. 1v1? good luck. But small fleet engagements, soloing, large fleet engagements, gate ganking/camping, tanking a pirate spawn - The majority of what you might find yourself doing in a BS is completely possible and also effective. As effective as the vet? no. But its mostly what you lack in real experience that handicaps the noob. A vet can take any ship and make it something to run from - asside from a freightor or something industrial, well even then ive seen some interesting things done with those as well that I would never try even with maxed SP's.
Ive destroyed geddons in a an iteron simply by targeting them in .5 sec space. Well, concord did for me, but the idiot (and believe me he did deserve it for reasons I wont get into) was a little jumpy on the trigger finger and bascially commited suicide. Loss for me = nothing My skill points = <1mil . His loss was extremely heavy, I forget what geddons cost, as I dont play the Amarr and dont really care, but just off the top of my head cost him aroumd 50mil?? correct me here. Not including modules (which couldnt have been that great.) Im fairly sure he was a noob in a big ship with lots of money to toss around, or he bought somones account... either way, just dont be stupid and you will be surprised what can happen. In .4 - a few vollies from him would have ended me, probably before I could even turn around to warp.
Vulnerant omnia, ultima necat.
I've been playing EVE for nearly 10 months now and played SWG and Anarchy online before that. I accept you can get into a battlesip in 90 days, but try and do a lvl 3 mission solo, many have and they all died horribly.
Many new players get into that first Battleship and feel like the god of war himself, go on a lvl 3 mission or hunt solo in 0.0 and ALWAYS come back home with thier tails between thier pods. You're correct that in a group you can be effective but this teaches you little and makes you feel better than you really are.
I said 3-6 months because by that time you'll have done some solo missions and this is the way to really feel out the ship and adapt your setup to be most effective in combat (in my opinion). Then venture into 0.0 and kill some NPC BS spawns, once you can handle that take on some players. If there are too many I'll warp, I've fought of 3 ships once (wasted the tackler so I could warp away). I've also taken out 2 ships a battleship and cruiser in a 2 vs 1, doing this isn't just skill points but experience in combat. I prefer to fight solo so am not certain how different the experience would be in a group. Just I've had bad experiences in previous MMORPGs (not EVE) of there always being one derv that doesn't listen and screws it up and gets us all killed. Then he asks "What happened?" and I get a sudden urge to re-arrange his teeth with my bootheel!
But what I'm speaking on is my experiences in learning in EVE, I'm sure others find different ways that work better for them. But now that I have 11m sp I can say that before I could "get by" in a Battleship but now I can "be effective", but that is strictly solo. In a group I imagine you can be very effective even with a minnimum of SP.
And BTW the Geddon probably cost about 60 mil maybe 80 mil with decent modules, maybe 100 mil with some T2 parts. And he probably made the mistake of making his weapons ready and he was on auto lock. So whoever locks him he fires on automaticaly, it's an old trick in empire wars for someone to have his buddy lock me in the hope I'll auto-fire on his buddy and concord will waste me. Would've like to have seen his face as he locked on and screamed "Noooooooooo"
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Yeah, it was comical. I do think that is one of those once in a blue moon situations, but I couldn't stop laughing. I was in a different corp at this point, and this guy was in an npc corp... I suspect now, that he may have just been in hiding or he was looking for a good place to start macro mining. Which btw, its much more fun to kill them. They don't even speak english, they just get paid to mine 23/7. With the new RmR rules, killing them without concord intervention is nothing but pure bliss. I hate them.
Anyway, I see where you are going with the 90day BS but it suck to do anything with it. I would still say that I would take a naked BS over a cruiser. If only b/c of the amount of armor/cpu/cap/shields that you get just have being in one. Fitting it with noob mods is much easier than fitting a Thorax with really nice t2 or equivalent mods - that require at least 3 months just to fit.
I would call it a tough trade off. I also don't think you find many players after 30days of play with a BS doing lvl3 missions either. If I was doing lvl 1 missions and killing .3 and above rats, I could do it with basic mods. I would not take it into a lvl 3 mission as you stated with just the hull to protect you. A BS (as you know, but many here may not) is not the end all be all as soon as you get one (a vet player will have 2 or 3 in each base in 5 systems during wartime, all setup in different ways for different tactics). Hell, I don't even have one! I have the skill, I could fly one quite well with advanced mods (named but not all t2), but compared to a hull tearing cruiser with focused skills - I would be afraid for anyone in a BS. Its funny, but the mods cost 4 times what the cruiser did when I built this type of ship. But I built it for killing BS's. It sucks for killing intys and HAC's, but eats BS's. I have to choose my battles with my cruiser however. But its great as an absolute kill in a fleet engagement, that costs 10X less than what im killing! If if I get smoked, resource wise I always come out on top.
If you get to the point of massive fleet engagements, you will get used to having lots of ships, and your fair share of deaths. But also at this point, buying things like BS's and mods is pennies compared to how much it costs for your corp to build a station or capital ship. You could buy hundreds of BS's for one station, in resources and time anyway. So at this level, things like a BS come easier, and tactics and pooling resources becomes key (regardless of skill points!) - if you look at this game as Item = power (which is really more like item = power of 1 person). In EvE, Organized Corp = Power over everything. b/c power is relative not just to the pooled collective power, but it multiplies a players (single person power) power with every new member/station/held system/etc. Its exponential once you hit the alliance multi-corp lvl. It really blows my mind to know how hard it can be to procure resources, then to know how much a station costs in resources. Then not just build and manage the station, but to upgrade and maintain the station! It would take a single player a month to gather enough resources just to keep the station running for another month. Insane quantities. But we build a station every other week it seems, and you do your best to support your corp however you choose - no matter what ship/s you have or how many SP's you have. Irrelevant.
Anyway, enough talking - I take lots of tangents.
Vulnerant omnia, ultima necat.