Originally posted by Aelious I definitely think there needs to be a penalty for dying, even if it doesn't induce rage quitting. As ButeoRegalis said its important to keep people from being able to zerg spawn to take targets down. The most important aspect of course is to make people not want to die, which makes them okay better, especially in a group where others don't want to die because they bite it.
Corpse run with XP loss? Sure, but it's been done before, is grossly overcompensating for what can cause you to die and I think most of us agree it wont happen.
I think the key to a good death penalty mechanic is time detriment. That doesn't mean it can't also be fun, right? If you're in a group and dying means being out of the action 10-15 minutes... you wont want to die.
I think they should have a persistent "spirit world" version of the map, include content in it and when you die are randomly placed within X distance of your place of death. EQ lore already has this place, it's called the Ethermere and it's the connection point between all "Norrath" worlds (EQ & EQ2).
If a player was sent to the Ethermere after death they would have to not only find but fight their way back to where they died. There would also be opportunities to tie other content and fight mechanics into the Ethermere since it would be persistent. If someone dies the group mates could "commune" next to their dead ally in order to enter themselves and help the process along.
That, IMO, would be a death mechanic that not only made you not want to die (remember the group was already interrupted from what they were doing) but makes it engaging and keeps players from abusing death as an easy way to gain in other areas, such as zerg rezzing.
Years ago I saw a dev journal where the author referenced a study they'd done on death penalties. They said the single highest factor was 'time getting back into the action'. For thematic and immersion reasons, I like the general take of the spirit plane idea. I prefer it when the mechanics of the game are tied as closely as possible to the world's story.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
I'm the last one that wants EQN to be easy but I don't believe "think" and "know" are interchangeable simply because there is a preexisting axe to grind. We don't know how "cake-walk" EQN will be and if it is that means SoE hasn't been paying as much attention to the market as they seem to with all the other features EQN has.
Like most games over time mechanics rule what is possible. A lot of the features we liked about the original EQ were there because the coding wasn't in to give it that functionality. We now see those as paramount reasons we liked it. I'll agree with you that it was hokey to put all those conveniences in the current EQ and EQ2 but they are older games. Right or wrong they made those changes for existing players who have probably died many, many times already.
EQN will be a "different" MMO, allegedly, so who's to say what will be the same or apply. They are going for newer tech which could give us options we haven't had yet, who knows.
Oh, I don't have an axe to grind. I am simply fully aware of what the eventuality of EQN will be with Dave Georgeson having his mucky hands in it from the beginning. I'd love for it to be otherwise, and I really wish I could be proved wrong at launch, but I've just seen and heard too much in all my years with EQ and EQ2 to know what he's all about, and what his products end up being.
Respawn naked where you are bound. Possibly with an experience loss. A game without consequences to death will destroy itself. Bring back corpse runs!
It will never happen , the XBox generation that invaded the MMO genre will not approve , and the genre continues its Morph into a console driven dumpster of instanced theme parks where everyone can do everything and everyone wins
Originally posted by CaldicotA game without consequences to death will destroy itself. Bring back corpse runs!
So I guess you're just going to hope SOE has never heard of WoW before and buy that line of bullshit ?
So you want another wow-clone? If that's what we are getting we can kiss this game goodbye.
So corpse runs are going to determine whether it's a EQ clone and whether the game succeeds? Tehehehehehe, you are so funny.
On a serious note - I liked the DP GW1 had, where you accumulated a 15% stat penalty for each death, until you got past 60% at which point you got booted out of the instance back to the last hub. Kills allowed you to slowly "work off" the DP. So, it's not a permanent loss, but it stopped you from just blindly trying to wear down a mob, or "death zerging".
Also, would whatever DP apply to open world PvP deaths? Coz that would ruin a game faster than you can say "g-aaargh-ank!!".
I was about to reference GW1 as one of the death penalties I've liked the least in a game. Making the player weaker for failing to complete challenging content only prevents that player from continuing to attempt that content. It was very frustrating to progress through a difficult area only to die, and to often have that death mean it was no longer possible for me to continue.
On the other hand I did enjoy the corpse runs from EQ2. You could leave the corpse behind for a small exp hit, or you could try to recover it to make up the lost exp. I think the game also had rez sickness where you took a hit to stats, but it was only for a couple minutes and would usually wear off by the time you were ready to retrieve your corpse. I really enjoyed helping friends recover corpses that were lost in one of the many public dungeons.
I've never feared death in any online mmorpg. I've feared wasting my time having to spend even more time to regain lost time, gold, gear, progress, etc which is tedious and a deterrent to taking risks.
"Oh look guys a giant, lets kill it!" 20 seconds later "Crap, there went two days work of xp, gold, progress, my shoe..."
I do enjoy a decent level of risk vs reward, but time sinks are not exciting.
Permadeath is the only real death I would fear and no chance of that happening.
Regardless of what system is put in place, there is always something to balance it. Rez sick & debuffs = some type of gold cost to heal or waste time to let it pass, lost gear = usually fairly easy to gain, lost xp/progress = simply play more. All of which are designed to keep us playing. I'd much rather play a game longer because it is engaging and fun not because I am an addict and gotta make up for that lost time.
Corpse runs in EQ were not something that struck fear into my soul. Oh no I have to run back or get someone to help me...so difficult. Only time they were a pain in the ass is when the game's poor design kicked in and my corpse was at the bottom of the ocean or some random spot that I can't easily get to.
I know some equate time played = hardcore, but that isn't the market anymore. Hopefully EQN can cater to all to a point, but I don't have 40+ hours a week to play like some adults sadly.
They could have different servers and rules, which hopefully we can pass on to them at some point, but I highly doubt it would be that popular. When push comes to shove, when an alternative is offered that is simply "harder" without anything in return (see D3), only those that have the time and something to prove will do it, which is not the majority.
Most just want to have a good time. Death should be avoided, but punishing players for having fun seems pointless.
Much rather die and have to run back to find what I was fighting is gone and all my work to get to it (making to bottom of TIer 5 for example) is for nothing. Only time is lost, but I can continue on. Still should of had a good time getting there and moving on afterwards.
Originally posted by CrazKanuk IMO, harsh death penalties simply force you down the path of least resistance. Like I think about Hardcore mode in D3 and it's like, you sit at the edge of the map and just pew pew single mobs and run away if you run into anything halfway difficult, until you're such a level that you can't advance any more by being in that area. Sorry, that's not the way to play a game. I would prefer a game that rewards you in death for risks that you took. For instance, let's say that someone is ganking a lowbie and I come to help him. I should get rewarded for trying to help that person. What about when I die like 10 times on a boss? I should be rewarded for my persistence. Similarly, I should be rewarded for doing something well the first time. If I can complete a raid my first time though, I should get something substantial. I always say that we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes, so death is important in a game to learning what to do in order to be successful.
Can you believe this guy? "I die 10 times and expect a reward." Yeah, that's a great mechanic. People would run in and die like lemmings to get rewarded...
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
Originally posted by CrazKanuk IMO, harsh death penalties simply force you down the path of least resistance. Like I think about Hardcore mode in D3 and it's like, you sit at the edge of the map and just pew pew single mobs and run away if you run into anything halfway difficult, until you're such a level that you can't advance any more by being in that area.
Sorry, that's not the way to play a game. I would prefer a game that rewards you in death for risks that you took. For instance, let's say that someone is ganking a lowbie and I come to help him. I should get rewarded for trying to help that person. What about when I die like 10 times on a boss? I should be rewarded for my persistence. Similarly, I should be rewarded for doing something well the first time. If I can complete a raid my first time though, I should get something substantial.
I always say that we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes, so death is important in a game to learning what to do in order to be successful.
Can you believe this guy? "I die 10 times and expect a reward." Yeah, that's a great mechanic. People would run in and die like lemmings to get rewarded...
It's what they learn in school with that no child left behind BS.
Originally posted by TiamatRoar Originally posted by CaldicotTheory: The now burned out wow-crowd has matured and is ready for something that actually makes you stop and think if something is worth doing considering the risk involved.
Where is your evidence to back this theory up?
As an aside, in my experience, people who are "burned out" end up wanting things EASIER, not harder. Because they're... you know, burned out and tired and everything. That's why WoW and every other MMO has had to progressively dumb things down more and more, and why Wildstar is not doing so well now. People just got TIRED of added tedium and stressful things like corpse-rushing and long levelling times. That's what "burned out" means. TIRED.
You don't get "burned out" on something being too easy. You get "bored" instead. But just because people are "bored" doesn't mean they want corpse runs. Such a thing would imply that corpse runs are fun, which, for most people, even back during EQ's days from what I recall when I kept up with EQ forums, they are certainly NOT.
No evidence other than that it is a logical conclusion given that the WoW-virgins indeed now have matured and are still looking to play MMOs.
And yes, "bored" might be a better word than "burned-out".
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
Originally posted by CrazKanuk IMO, harsh death penalties simply force you down the path of least resistance. Like I think about Hardcore mode in D3 and it's like, you sit at the edge of the map and just pew pew single mobs and run away if you run into anything halfway difficult, until you're such a level that you can't advance any more by being in that area.
Sorry, that's not the way to play a game. I would prefer a game that rewards you in death for risks that you took. For instance, let's say that someone is ganking a lowbie and I come to help him. I should get rewarded for trying to help that person. What about when I die like 10 times on a boss? I should be rewarded for my persistence. Similarly, I should be rewarded for doing something well the first time. If I can complete a raid my first time though, I should get something substantial.
I always say that we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes, so death is important in a game to learning what to do in order to be successful.
Can you believe this guy? "I die 10 times and expect a reward." Yeah, that's a great mechanic. People would run in and die like lemmings to get rewarded...
Yes I can. Then again I play games to accomplish something and to have fun. Maybe you missed the highlighted part, but basically the opposite of what you are saying.
Kill without dying = 22 progress points, each player death would result in loss of 3 progress point possible. Three deaths later, success = 13 progress points. Still rewarded for effort, but don't get as much because it took so many tries.
So lemmings in this case with 10 deaths would get maybe baseline 5 points or something.
Much like mob is designed with 5 people in mind, if you zerg it with 50, each person should get .00005 reward or whatever to factor in risk vs reward.
Difference between playing smart and not really playing. Like the D3 example. Avoiding death while avoiding actually playing is not fun for me. I want to die and have a consequence, but not to the point that I either only try when overly prepared and no longer challenged or skip content to avoid being punished for trying and failing.
I'm very against the shift to everyone is a winner and gets a trophy for showing up, but at the same time, if someone shows up, tries and sucks, they shouldn't get punched in the jaw either.
Originally posted by Allein I'm very against the shift to everyone is a winner and gets a trophy for showing up, but at the same time, if someone shows up, tries and sucks, they shouldn't get punched in the jaw either.
The question then becomes if it's possible to have it both ways, maybe it is.
Look, I know my OP was a bit over the top. All I'm saying really is that we need some other consequence of death other than being able to respawn at one of the hundred nearby graveyard with no penalties incurred.
This is not to say that the game shouldn't be "accessible" or user friendly. I'm all for that.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
Originally posted by Allein I'm very against the shift to everyone is a winner and gets a trophy for showing up, but at the same time, if someone shows up, tries and sucks, they shouldn't get punched in the jaw either.
The question then becomes if it's possible to have it both ways, maybe it is.
Look, I know my OP was a bit over the top. All I'm saying really is that we need some other consequence of death other than being able to respawn at one of the hundred nearby graveyard with no penalties incurred.
This is not to say that the game shouldn't be "accessible" or user friendly. I'm all for that.
You can't have a game that is harsh with the death penalties but easy with everything else. There would be a thematic disconnect in how the game is presented to the player. An extreme example would be something like having a harsh death penalty in Hello Kitty Online: Adventure Island. It just wouldn't make sense to the players that showed up for the accessbile and user friendly game play.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Allein I'm very against the shift to everyone is a winner and gets a trophy for showing up, but at the same time, if someone shows up, tries and sucks, they shouldn't get punched in the jaw either.
The question then becomes if it's possible to have it both ways, maybe it is.
Look, I know my OP was a bit over the top. All I'm saying really is that we need some other consequence of death other than being able to respawn at one of the hundred nearby graveyard with no penalties incurred.
This is not to say that the game shouldn't be "accessible" or user friendly. I'm all for that.
You can't have a game that is harsh with the death penalties but easy with everything else. There would be a thematic disconnect in how the game is presented to the player. An extreme example would be something like having a harsh death penalty in Hello Kitty Online: Adventure Island. It just wouldn't make sense to the players that showed up for the accessbile and user friendly game play.
I think you can tho.. IMO.. EQ1 wasn't that hard if you knew what you were doing.. However, if you messed up the sting was felt.. (unless you had a friend with a epic clicky stick) .. I"m not a fan of pro-long course runs and I think WoW was a step in an alternative direction, but went too easy on dying.. It was nice that Blizzard gave players an option to avoid that naked run across zones, but that should of been a last resort option, not default standard with no serious penalty.. Paying for a repair bill was a joke in WoW..
Originally posted by CrazKanuk IMO, harsh death penalties simply force you down the path of least resistance. Like I think about Hardcore mode in D3 and it's like, you sit at the edge of the map and just pew pew single mobs and run away if you run into anything halfway difficult, until you're such a level that you can't advance any more by being in that area.
Sorry, that's not the way to play a game. I would prefer a game that rewards you in death for risks that you took. For instance, let's say that someone is ganking a lowbie and I come to help him. I should get rewarded for trying to help that person. What about when I die like 10 times on a boss? I should be rewarded for my persistence. Similarly, I should be rewarded for doing something well the first time. If I can complete a raid my first time though, I should get something substantial.
I always say that we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes, so death is important in a game to learning what to do in order to be successful.
Can you believe this guy? "I die 10 times and expect a reward." Yeah, that's a great mechanic. People would run in and die like lemmings to get rewarded...
Lol, yes because that's what I said. Just run in Leeroy style. I'm not a designer, but I'm saying that MMOs are progression-based, so if you're showing progression you should be rewarded. So if that means that you're rewarded for dying 10 times on a raid boss before beating it, then that's how it is. If you die 10 times and give up, you get nothing. However, you make it much more of an incentive to kill the boss on your first try. It's like diminishing returns. So you get RNG boss loot + whatever you earned based on your performance. It's much better than harsh death penalties. My bad, though, I don't know why I'd expect anyone to look any deeper than the surface. It does require mental effort and an open mind, which is obviously lacking.
Originally posted by Allein I'm very against the shift to everyone is a winner and gets a trophy for showing up, but at the same time, if someone shows up, tries and sucks, they shouldn't get punched in the jaw either.
The question then becomes if it's possible to have it both ways, maybe it is.
Look, I know my OP was a bit over the top. All I'm saying really is that we need some other consequence of death other than being able to respawn at one of the hundred nearby graveyard with no penalties incurred.
This is not to say that the game shouldn't be "accessible" or user friendly. I'm all for that.
You can't have a game that is harsh with the death penalties but easy with everything else. There would be a thematic disconnect in how the game is presented to the player. An extreme example would be something like having a harsh death penalty in Hello Kitty Online: Adventure Island. It just wouldn't make sense to the players that showed up for the accessbile and user friendly game play.
I think you can tho.. IMO.. EQ1 wasn't that hard if you knew what you were doing.. However, if you messed up the sting was felt.. (unless you had a friend with a epic clicky stick) .. I"m not a fan of pro-long course runs and I think WoW was a step in an alternative direction, but went too easy on dying.. It was nice that Blizzard gave players an option to avoid that naked run across zones, but that should of been a last resort option, not default standard with no serious penalty.. Paying for a repair bill was a joke in WoW..
EQ1 wasn't easy until after the player leveled up relative to the content, which would involve dying or progressing slowly. The players expected this though. It is a different style of play and the harsh death penalty fits in with that style of play. Slower progression with setbacks to that progression are expected.
If the player is not expecting to receive those setbacks, or if they are expecting a faster paced progression, harsh death penalties (setbacks to progression) are not going to be accepted as "OK". EQNext looks to be one of those games where progression is pretty quick.
If adding a harsh death penalty in and of itself improved games and increased the number of people who enjoyed games they would be added to many games. They would start showing up in single player games. Instead, the reverse is happening. The "harsh" death penalty is becoming less common and is not migrating to other styles of games.
It really comes down to what people prefer. Death penalties, harsh or light, do not have inherent value. Their value is only in what people like. More people prefer the light death penalties. Probably because more people are accustomed to just starting over from a save point or something similar.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by CrazKanuk IMO, harsh death penalties simply force you down the path of least resistance. Like I think about Hardcore mode in D3 and it's like, you sit at the edge of the map and just pew pew single mobs and run away if you run into anything halfway difficult, until you're such a level that you can't advance any more by being in that area.
Sorry, that's not the way to play a game. I would prefer a game that rewards you in death for risks that you took. For instance, let's say that someone is ganking a lowbie and I come to help him. I should get rewarded for trying to help that person. What about when I die like 10 times on a boss? I should be rewarded for my persistence. Similarly, I should be rewarded for doing something well the first time. If I can complete a raid my first time though, I should get something substantial.
I always say that we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes, so death is important in a game to learning what to do in order to be successful.
Can you believe this guy? "I die 10 times and expect a reward." Yeah, that's a great mechanic. People would run in and die like lemmings to get rewarded...
Lol, yes because that's what I said. Just run in Leeroy style. I'm not a designer, but I'm saying that MMOs are progression-based, so if you're showing progression you should be rewarded. So if that means that you're rewarded for dying 10 times on a raid boss before beating it, then that's how it is. If you die 10 times and give up, you get nothing. However, you make it much more of an incentive to kill the boss on your first try. It's like diminishing returns. So you get RNG boss loot + whatever you earned based on your performance. It's much better than harsh death penalties. My bad, though, I don't know why I'd expect anyone to look any deeper than the surface. It does require mental effort and an open mind, which is obviously lacking.
What you are describing is already how raiding works. Players who cannot get past a particular raid boss will kill lower tier raid bosses or complete dungeons to collect the gear necessary to allow them to kill the "next" raid boss. The raid boss is just the test. The lower tier raid bosses and dungeons are the preparatory material. Once the test is passed, that "next" raid boss becomes part of the preparatory material for the "next next" raid boss.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
A lot of it also depends on how easy it is to make back what you've lost.
If it's an old school Lineage (and other Korean) style "Haha, you died once, now you've lost days progress!" death penalty, goodluck on convincing any developer to add something to their game that will drive 95% of the playerbase away the moment they get to those levels.
MMOs are already a niche genre that requires huge time investments to get anywhere. No need to shrink the playerbase even further to stroke the e-peens of those who live glued to their computer screen and aren't bothered with such silly concepts such as wasted time.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
I would rather have challenging content where I run the risk of dying ten times because of my mistakes than have harsh death penalties. Problem is that death penalties "forces" you to play it safe since you lose too much if you try something that causes you to die 4-5 times.
Getting something down after 100 deaths is something special.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Respawn naked where you are bound. Possibly with an experience loss. A game without consequences to death will destroy itself. Bring back corpse runs!
Will not happen.
EQN is clearly aiming for the broad mainstream, 'harsh' anything will not be on the cards.
true but i am hoping for server specific rule sets
- like a server where there is a harsh death penalty resulting in experience and level loss
What else would be included in that server specific rule set? It doesn't seem likely that they are going to setup a server where everything is the same as a normal PvP or PvE server, except the death penalty.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by CrazKanuk IMO, harsh death penalties simply force you down the path of least resistance. Like I think about Hardcore mode in D3 and it's like, you sit at the edge of the map and just pew pew single mobs and run away if you run into anything halfway difficult, until you're such a level that you can't advance any more by being in that area.
Sorry, that's not the way to play a game. I would prefer a game that rewards you in death for risks that you took. For instance, let's say that someone is ganking a lowbie and I come to help him. I should get rewarded for trying to help that person. What about when I die like 10 times on a boss? I should be rewarded for my persistence. Similarly, I should be rewarded for doing something well the first time. If I can complete a raid my first time though, I should get something substantial.
I always say that we learn more from our failures than we do from our successes, so death is important in a game to learning what to do in order to be successful.
Can you believe this guy? "I die 10 times and expect a reward." Yeah, that's a great mechanic. People would run in and die like lemmings to get rewarded...
Lol, yes because that's what I said. Just run in Leeroy style. I'm not a designer, but I'm saying that MMOs are progression-based, so if you're showing progression you should be rewarded. So if that means that you're rewarded for dying 10 times on a raid boss before beating it, then that's how it is. If you die 10 times and give up, you get nothing. However, you make it much more of an incentive to kill the boss on your first try. It's like diminishing returns. So you get RNG boss loot + whatever you earned based on your performance. It's much better than harsh death penalties. My bad, though, I don't know why I'd expect anyone to look any deeper than the surface. It does require mental effort and an open mind, which is obviously lacking.
What you are describing is already how raiding works. Players who cannot get past a particular raid boss will kill lower tier raid bosses or complete dungeons to collect the gear necessary to allow them to kill the "next" raid boss. The raid boss is just the test. The lower tier raid bosses and dungeons are the preparatory material. Once the test is passed, that "next" raid boss becomes part of the preparatory material for the "next next" raid boss.
Not really, no. You have a roll for gear, and you might get a few gold pieces (guaranteed), but there really isn't a great deal of incentive to endure the costly, frustrating process of raid progression. Now we're onto the topic of raids specifically, which really wasn't my intention, but even without a death penalty, raiding is costly and extremely time consuming. There's a reason that 1% or a fraction of 1% of players actually complete Heroic raid content. What I'm suggesting is that if there is something like a random dice roll for a piece of loot for me and only me at the end of a boss fight then it would be more incentive for people to actually attempt more difficult raid content. The only incentive, currently, is self-motivation. For most, though, it's a hassle because the reward doesn't outweigh the risk/frustration.
I think that the only way that a harsh death penalty would work, IMO, is if there is a counter-balanced incentive system which actually rewards those who take risks. That's all I'm saying. Otherwise, it's basically a game full of people hanging out in hub cities and never going outside.
It's not going to happen, but I miss the days when you died you would rant and run around cursing because you died. Now if you die you're just like "oh, well".
Originally posted by Nadia i am hoping for server specific rule sets
- like a server where there is a harsh death penalty resulting in experience and level loss
What else would be included in that server specific rule set? It doesn't seem likely that they are going to setup a server where everything is the same as a normal PvP or PvE server, except the death penalty.
i agree, it doesnt seem likely -- specialty servers were not favored by the poll
Comments
Years ago I saw a dev journal where the author referenced a study they'd done on death penalties. They said the single highest factor was 'time getting back into the action'. For thematic and immersion reasons, I like the general take of the spirit plane idea. I prefer it when the mechanics of the game are tied as closely as possible to the world's story.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Oh, I don't have an axe to grind. I am simply fully aware of what the eventuality of EQN will be with Dave Georgeson having his mucky hands in it from the beginning. I'd love for it to be otherwise, and I really wish I could be proved wrong at launch, but I've just seen and heard too much in all my years with EQ and EQ2 to know what he's all about, and what his products end up being.
It will never happen , the XBox generation that invaded the MMO genre will not approve , and the genre continues its Morph into a console driven dumpster of instanced theme parks where everyone can do everything and everyone wins
I was about to reference GW1 as one of the death penalties I've liked the least in a game. Making the player weaker for failing to complete challenging content only prevents that player from continuing to attempt that content. It was very frustrating to progress through a difficult area only to die, and to often have that death mean it was no longer possible for me to continue.
On the other hand I did enjoy the corpse runs from EQ2. You could leave the corpse behind for a small exp hit, or you could try to recover it to make up the lost exp. I think the game also had rez sickness where you took a hit to stats, but it was only for a couple minutes and would usually wear off by the time you were ready to retrieve your corpse. I really enjoyed helping friends recover corpses that were lost in one of the many public dungeons.
No thank you.
I've never feared death in any online mmorpg. I've feared wasting my time having to spend even more time to regain lost time, gold, gear, progress, etc which is tedious and a deterrent to taking risks.
"Oh look guys a giant, lets kill it!" 20 seconds later "Crap, there went two days work of xp, gold, progress, my shoe..."
I do enjoy a decent level of risk vs reward, but time sinks are not exciting.
Permadeath is the only real death I would fear and no chance of that happening.
Regardless of what system is put in place, there is always something to balance it. Rez sick & debuffs = some type of gold cost to heal or waste time to let it pass, lost gear = usually fairly easy to gain, lost xp/progress = simply play more. All of which are designed to keep us playing. I'd much rather play a game longer because it is engaging and fun not because I am an addict and gotta make up for that lost time.
Corpse runs in EQ were not something that struck fear into my soul. Oh no I have to run back or get someone to help me...so difficult. Only time they were a pain in the ass is when the game's poor design kicked in and my corpse was at the bottom of the ocean or some random spot that I can't easily get to.
I know some equate time played = hardcore, but that isn't the market anymore. Hopefully EQN can cater to all to a point, but I don't have 40+ hours a week to play like some adults sadly.
They could have different servers and rules, which hopefully we can pass on to them at some point, but I highly doubt it would be that popular. When push comes to shove, when an alternative is offered that is simply "harder" without anything in return (see D3), only those that have the time and something to prove will do it, which is not the majority.
Most just want to have a good time. Death should be avoided, but punishing players for having fun seems pointless.
Much rather die and have to run back to find what I was fighting is gone and all my work to get to it (making to bottom of TIer 5 for example) is for nothing. Only time is lost, but I can continue on. Still should of had a good time getting there and moving on afterwards.
Can you believe this guy? "I die 10 times and expect a reward." Yeah, that's a great mechanic. People would run in and die like lemmings to get rewarded...
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
It's what they learn in school with that no child left behind BS.
As an aside, in my experience, people who are "burned out" end up wanting things EASIER, not harder. Because they're... you know, burned out and tired and everything. That's why WoW and every other MMO has had to progressively dumb things down more and more, and why Wildstar is not doing so well now. People just got TIRED of added tedium and stressful things like corpse-rushing and long levelling times. That's what "burned out" means. TIRED.
You don't get "burned out" on something being too easy. You get "bored" instead. But just because people are "bored" doesn't mean they want corpse runs. Such a thing would imply that corpse runs are fun, which, for most people, even back during EQ's days from what I recall when I kept up with EQ forums, they are certainly NOT.
No evidence other than that it is a logical conclusion given that the WoW-virgins indeed now have matured and are still looking to play MMOs.
And yes, "bored" might be a better word than "burned-out".
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
Yes I can. Then again I play games to accomplish something and to have fun. Maybe you missed the highlighted part, but basically the opposite of what you are saying.
Kill without dying = 22 progress points, each player death would result in loss of 3 progress point possible. Three deaths later, success = 13 progress points. Still rewarded for effort, but don't get as much because it took so many tries.
So lemmings in this case with 10 deaths would get maybe baseline 5 points or something.
Much like mob is designed with 5 people in mind, if you zerg it with 50, each person should get .00005 reward or whatever to factor in risk vs reward.
Difference between playing smart and not really playing. Like the D3 example. Avoiding death while avoiding actually playing is not fun for me. I want to die and have a consequence, but not to the point that I either only try when overly prepared and no longer challenged or skip content to avoid being punished for trying and failing.
I'm very against the shift to everyone is a winner and gets a trophy for showing up, but at the same time, if someone shows up, tries and sucks, they shouldn't get punched in the jaw either.
The question then becomes if it's possible to have it both ways, maybe it is.
Look, I know my OP was a bit over the top. All I'm saying really is that we need some other consequence of death other than being able to respawn at one of the hundred nearby graveyard with no penalties incurred.
This is not to say that the game shouldn't be "accessible" or user friendly. I'm all for that.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
You can't have a game that is harsh with the death penalties but easy with everything else. There would be a thematic disconnect in how the game is presented to the player. An extreme example would be something like having a harsh death penalty in Hello Kitty Online: Adventure Island. It just wouldn't make sense to the players that showed up for the accessbile and user friendly game play.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Will not happen.
EQN is clearly aiming for the broad mainstream, 'harsh' anything will not be on the cards.
I think you can tho.. IMO.. EQ1 wasn't that hard if you knew what you were doing.. However, if you messed up the sting was felt.. (unless you had a friend with a epic clicky stick) .. I"m not a fan of pro-long course runs and I think WoW was a step in an alternative direction, but went too easy on dying.. It was nice that Blizzard gave players an option to avoid that naked run across zones, but that should of been a last resort option, not default standard with no serious penalty.. Paying for a repair bill was a joke in WoW..
Lol, yes because that's what I said. Just run in Leeroy style. I'm not a designer, but I'm saying that MMOs are progression-based, so if you're showing progression you should be rewarded. So if that means that you're rewarded for dying 10 times on a raid boss before beating it, then that's how it is. If you die 10 times and give up, you get nothing. However, you make it much more of an incentive to kill the boss on your first try. It's like diminishing returns. So you get RNG boss loot + whatever you earned based on your performance. It's much better than harsh death penalties. My bad, though, I don't know why I'd expect anyone to look any deeper than the surface. It does require mental effort and an open mind, which is obviously lacking.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
OP
im still waiting on EQ2 ..not these nonsence titles they keep releasing with the "EQ" title infront of them
EQ1 wasn't easy until after the player leveled up relative to the content, which would involve dying or progressing slowly. The players expected this though. It is a different style of play and the harsh death penalty fits in with that style of play. Slower progression with setbacks to that progression are expected.
If the player is not expecting to receive those setbacks, or if they are expecting a faster paced progression, harsh death penalties (setbacks to progression) are not going to be accepted as "OK". EQNext looks to be one of those games where progression is pretty quick.
If adding a harsh death penalty in and of itself improved games and increased the number of people who enjoyed games they would be added to many games. They would start showing up in single player games. Instead, the reverse is happening. The "harsh" death penalty is becoming less common and is not migrating to other styles of games.
It really comes down to what people prefer. Death penalties, harsh or light, do not have inherent value. Their value is only in what people like. More people prefer the light death penalties. Probably because more people are accustomed to just starting over from a save point or something similar.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
What you are describing is already how raiding works. Players who cannot get past a particular raid boss will kill lower tier raid bosses or complete dungeons to collect the gear necessary to allow them to kill the "next" raid boss. The raid boss is just the test. The lower tier raid bosses and dungeons are the preparatory material. Once the test is passed, that "next" raid boss becomes part of the preparatory material for the "next next" raid boss.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
A lot of it also depends on how easy it is to make back what you've lost.
If it's an old school Lineage (and other Korean) style "Haha, you died once, now you've lost days progress!" death penalty, goodluck on convincing any developer to add something to their game that will drive 95% of the playerbase away the moment they get to those levels.
MMOs are already a niche genre that requires huge time investments to get anywhere. No need to shrink the playerbase even further to stroke the e-peens of those who live glued to their computer screen and aren't bothered with such silly concepts such as wasted time.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
I would rather have challenging content where I run the risk of dying ten times because of my mistakes than have harsh death penalties. Problem is that death penalties "forces" you to play it safe since you lose too much if you try something that causes you to die 4-5 times.
Getting something down after 100 deaths is something special.
true but i am hoping for server specific rule sets
- like a server where there is a harsh death penalty resulting in experience and level loss
EQ2 fan sites
What else would be included in that server specific rule set? It doesn't seem likely that they are going to setup a server where everything is the same as a normal PvP or PvE server, except the death penalty.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Not really, no. You have a roll for gear, and you might get a few gold pieces (guaranteed), but there really isn't a great deal of incentive to endure the costly, frustrating process of raid progression. Now we're onto the topic of raids specifically, which really wasn't my intention, but even without a death penalty, raiding is costly and extremely time consuming. There's a reason that 1% or a fraction of 1% of players actually complete Heroic raid content. What I'm suggesting is that if there is something like a random dice roll for a piece of loot for me and only me at the end of a boss fight then it would be more incentive for people to actually attempt more difficult raid content. The only incentive, currently, is self-motivation. For most, though, it's a hassle because the reward doesn't outweigh the risk/frustration.
I think that the only way that a harsh death penalty would work, IMO, is if there is a counter-balanced incentive system which actually rewards those who take risks. That's all I'm saying. Otherwise, it's basically a game full of people hanging out in hub cities and never going outside.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
i agree, it doesnt seem likely -- specialty servers were not favored by the poll
https://www.everquestnext.com/round-table?poll=specialty-server-choices-eqn
EQ2 fan sites