Originally posted by winter Just check the news about every black Friday for God knows how long. People trampling other people, fighting and staying up to weird hours to be the first to get a few dollars off some item.
Why black Fridays only? Why limited offers? If your theory was true, they should make more money if they just sell at lower price all the time.
Yes, but I think people (and OP especially) is forgetting that credit card payment and banking has a lot of costs.
It maybe invisible to you but not to the people running the game. Setting up transaction systems can cost them a lot.
So there is a problem with MMO I think that sub cost can't be too low (after including all other costs such as servers, datacenters, staffs etc) otherwise they will lose money to transaction fees.
I suspect $5 month is probably the lowest any company can go for monthly subs, if they can pay for the other overheads and still make some profits at that price.
Tons of games out there charge less than $15 and make more than enough to support or expand their team and provide regular updates... See Tibia, Zezenia, RS, ATitD, Eldevin, the list goes on. All tend to be smaller, independent companies whose games are less graphically demanding. I bet lower-end (graphically speaking; the gameplay experiences in these games are some of the best I have had) games like these wouldn't be able to cut it by demanding $15/mo.
Theres a sizeable market for long-term MMOs that will run well on low-end PCs, and theres probably a tenable correlation between having a lower-end PC and not being able to afford $15/mo. As for proving that the decrease in revenue per customer is offset by an increase in total revenue due to higher customer base, I couldn't say. I would love to look at the books of some of these smaller private companies thought to find out
If people can't or won't spend 50 cents a day on a game itas pretty unlikely they will spend 30 cents a day on a game. (OMG Look I just save 20 cents daily I'm so subscribing to this game)
I don't know about you, but the games I play do not let me plop down $.50 on the days I want to play vs the days I do not want to play. They all seem to want their money up front, so that is really a different between $15 and $10. In some households it is more like the difference between $45 and $30. Now if I look at the second example it is far more affordable. Start adding in more games and more people, then I as a consumer can afford to spend more to keep more happy at the lower price, thus in the long run the company will earn more of my money.
Please do the math, Pretty much every subscription game has you pay for a month. On average there's 30 days in a month so if your paying 15 dollars a month your paying roughly 50 cents a day. Don't kid yourself in the end your basically saying I not gonna try this game it will cost 20 cents more a day per month or I will try this game because I'm saving 20 cents per day per month.
I personally can't think of any other entertainment one can get for 50 cents a day. Cable tv will cost you more per day, your cell phone will cost you more per day. etc
And this is why I laugh at this example. Please get this correct. It is not $.50 a day. it is $.50 for a CHANCE to play. if there is downtime for what ever reason I do not get this money back. Lets take another example Where I live we just got hit with some massive hail and wind damage. My house was without power for 2 days, Add on top of that days that I was unable to play at all for various reasons, lets just call them 5 days. I'm up to 7, I'll leave it at that. Take in a 30 day month and now my sub is roughly $.71 cents (a day)this month.
Do the math. This is why I say it is not X a day, it is a 1 time a month fee that has to be allocated into a monthly budget. I wish I could just pay things on a daily basis, Bills would rock. No need to tightly balance that last paycheck each month to make sure all the bills are paid because everyone wants their money at one (or two) particular times each month. When you add in multiple person sub fee's it (can) get extremely expensive, that one day they all want their money
Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going! --> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <-- Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
It is a standard assumption of economics that the demand curve is shaped such that people will buy more of a given good at lower prices.
No, it isn't. It is a common mistake of people who knows little about econ or business.
Demand is actually quite inelastic and any deviation in price - up or down, from product price point mostly always results in a loss of money.
Think of it this way:
If people accept 15 USD for MMO sub as standard price, what would you achieve with setting up sub at 10 USD? It won't make your product any more attractive since people have no issue paying even half more what you ask. Result? You lose money.
Exactly.
The entire thread is silly in all actuality. The OP presents either intended ruse or lack of understanding of the actual business model of Champions Online.
Champions Online isn't a subscription-based MMO. It's free to play with a monthly VIP level. Any fluctuation in monthly memberships would be more a reflection on the value of 500 zen (included in the package) than anything else.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If a MMO wants to charge a sub fee, then do away with the box price. make it free for 30 days from the start, restricting trade and mail for players who do not sign on for a subscription. Make the subscription $7 - $10.
Reducing price only work for household products,clothes ,shoes and stuff you would buy anyway. Not talking about big ticket items like a new kitchen or car but monthly stuff that you would buy anyway. A game subscription not so much.
I'm currently subbed to two games and on my income I could easily afford to sub to more. The issue for me isn't the cost its the time. I play one mmo full time and the other when my main mmo isn't available for whatever reason. They take every minute of my free time.
So no, reducing sub cost would not allow me to play a larger variety of subscription games.
I don't think it'll make a huge difference. But then again, PWE's marketing people are much more business savvy than I am, so who knows what the outcome will be.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Only speaking for myself the sub has never been the issue, it's the value I place on my time vrs what else I could be doing that pulls me away from most games.
Exactly.. The price in itself has little impact.. The issue for me and most consumers is your return.. Are you getting your money's worth? If a game only gives me $3 worth of entertainment per month, then anything beyond that is wasting my money.. However, if a AAA game is worth $40 a month, then any subscription below that is a good trade.. It's just like golfing.. I can go to a shitty golf course that I really don't care about, but if their green fees are only $10 for 18 holes, I"ll play it.. But as soon as that fee goes up, the less likelihood I'll play.. Same with 4 star courses that I think are way over priced.. Yes, the courses are in pristine condition, but really? $800 for 18 holes is just insane.. I don't care if a buddy of mine told me he has a tee time at Pebble Beach, it's not worth it.. I'd rather go play the shitty $10 course.. LOL
That is simple economics 101.. And that is the ever changing flow of business.. Customers perception of product and service and is it worth it..
edit: Marketing 101 > Sell the sizzle, not the steak.. There are times your product just isn't worth the price tag, so marketing has to find ways to influence customers to believe it is..
If people can't or won't spend 50 cents a day on a game itas pretty unlikely they will spend 30 cents a day on a game. (OMG Look I just save 20 cents daily I'm so subscribing to this game)
Why don't don't you break the numbers down to how much it cost per minute? You know just to make the numbers look more trivial and thus strengthen your case.
Here is what you should really be saying:
-OMG Look I just save 40% daily I'm so subscribing to this game.-
If you saw something you wanted at 40% off the regular price would you not be more tempted? If someone told you you could save 40% on mortgage payments would you not consider that? Naw why should you bother, its only another 40% per day, right?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I could play Guild Wars 1 if I wanted, anytime. I have the game. Yet I dont play. I dont play a game I could play for free. Why ? Because its DEAD BORING OMG CANT STAND THE PAIN GET ME OUT OF HERE WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE THIS SH** I HAVE NO CLUE MAKE THE PAIN STOP MAKE THE PAIN STOP PRETTY PLEASE OMG.
Originally posted by Adamantine I could play Guild Wars 1 if I wanted, anytime. I have the game. Yet I dont play. I dont play a game I could play for free. Why ? Because its DEAD BORING OMG CANT STAND THE PAIN GET ME OUT OF HERE WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE THIS SH** I HAVE NO CLUE MAKE THE PAIN STOP MAKE THE PAIN STOP PRETTY PLEASE OMG.
So the point of your post is, don't play GW1??
Or is it, don't play any game because it might be boring?? I dunno, you lost me there...
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
If people can't or won't spend 50 cents a day on a game itas pretty unlikely they will spend 30 cents a day on a game. (OMG Look I just save 20 cents daily I'm so subscribing to this game)
Why don't don't you break the numbers down to how much it cost per minute? You know just to make the numbers look more trivial and thus strengthen your case.
Here is what you should really be saying:
-OMG Look I just save 40% daily I'm so subscribing to this game.-
If you saw something you wanted at 40% off the regular price would you not be more tempted? If someone told you you could save 40% on mortgage payments would you not consider that? Naw why should you bother, its only another 40% per day, right?
I don't think that is the issue for most.. I love golf, but I do not subscribe to Golf Digest or Golf magazine for a reason.. The cost of that magazine in itself isn't worth it.. Sure it's 12 issues for $12.. The thing is, the content inside the covers don't interest me.. I don't care for all the commercial ads inside, and the articles are often bland and boring.. The could offer a 40% discount tomorrow and I would still pass on it.. To me that magazine is "OK" free bathroom material next to The National Inquirer.. lol Now, if GD would change their content of the magazine to MY liking, then I might consider subscribing to it..
Will a lower price attract more people? Answer yes - assuming quality etc. is maintained.
The OP then goes on to talk about often arguing that the answer is no. However that would be to a different question namely: would the publisher make more money with a lower subscription. And that answer is: it depends.
You cannot simply say a higher price will make the company more money because ...... well why stop at $15/month. Why not make it $150,000/month. Its a higher price so ....
I don't want to discuss theory because there is a lot of - very cohesive work - around the issue. If anyone is seriously interested I would suggest they checkout a Fundamentals of Marketing site rather than an economic one; it will cover a lot more than simply price.
My own impression:
1. When mmo games came out "everyone" appreciated that the "online element" cost more. People bought search engines; ISPs were expensive; if you wanted to connect two computers together in your house you needed an expensive router top do so. So paying a subscription in addition to the box price and any extra content was "accepted". Not everyone will have been able to afford it but it wasn't seen as unreasonable.
2. Prices felt - people no longer accepted the reason for the sub. So increasingly publishers started to say: with the sub comes content.
3. Today a sub is associated with fleecing basically - since (proper) new content is rare and often comes with a box price.
4. In reality I suspect it may be becoming a "luxury price". Prices that bear no actual link to the actual cost but which make those who purchase such products feel "special".
Originally posted by cheyane Reducing price only work for household products,clothes ,shoes and stuff you would buy anyway. Not talking about big ticket items like a new kitchen or car but monthly stuff that you would buy anyway. A game subscription not so much.
No Price works for big ticket items as well.
What you mean to say is that the ability to use Price to differentiate your Product is more difficult for basic items. The absolute basic items being e.g. raw material. A bottle of water is a bottle of water is a bottle of water. Doesn't stop sellers spending money to Promote their bottle of water as "special" though.
With a game subscription it comes down to what it actually buys. On day 1 your subscription - the $60 you paid when you bought or downloaded the box - gets you "lots of new stuff". The second subscription - after 30 days - gets you the same stuff. ditto the third.
It would be like subscribing to 12 issues of the Golf Magazine but they then say - well we may send you a 4 page supplement on month 4 and maybe another page on month 7 but the plan for one a month ... sorry. didn't get enough subscribers.
I would lifetime sub to FFXI if it was 10$/month including 4-5 extra characters. Too much paying 13$+1$ per character you want for the age on the game.
You can't beat your competition with price, only quality of your product is what matters. People won't play your "bad" game because it's cheap, they will play it because it is better than others.
Econ 101.
Obviously you are wrong. Why does Walmart succeed? Price. Why does Macdonald succeed? Price. Quality is just one factor, same as price.
And why does F2P succeed? .... no .. not price ... WHALES!
Originally posted by nariusseldonObviously you are wrong. Why does Walmart succeed? Price. Why does Macdonald succeed? Price. Quality is just one factor, same as price.And why does F2P succeed? .... no .. not price ... WHALES!
Walmart's success is in logistics, MCD made their money in real estate, F2P provides much better monetization in current market than P2P...
Realistically, no a cheaper price would not lead to more subscribers. This is evident in many F2P and B2P games. For instance, TSW top notch game, cheap as chips to play now, but, a lot of people dislike mechanics used in game. This preference is deemed a quality issue, which I am inclined to agree on.
Quality sells, people who play great games wish to continue to re-invest in it, this is apparent with DLC as it is with subscriptions. Anyone saying "No" are either on the unfortunate side of low income or unemployment to where a subscription could be met as a detriment.
In addition to the problem of getting enough subscriptions to offset the difference between the higher and lower rates, is the problem of retention. Just because something is a bit cheaper doesn't necessarily translate to longer lasting subscribers. There will probably be a certain number that do maintain a longer subscription, but if the game isn't popular, no amount of discount will keep the players there.
But you know what trumps theory? Reality. And now Perfect World Entertainment is running an experiment to determine the answer to precisely the question above. Champions Online is now 1/3 off: a monthly subscription now costs $10/month, not the usual $15/month. Longer subscription periods are likewise discounted, though a lifetime subscription is not.
Its perfect world and Champions online which, imo, isnt much of an experiment in reduced cost gaming. If this was Blizzard, i bet there would be a large influx of subscribers. Enough to offset the reduced price, maybe and maybe not. For a PvP mmorpg the loss in revenue is offset by increased activity, because you do need players as content.
I can see Eve online having success with a 7-10$ sub model where as I dont really see much gain for Champions online. Wildstar could also probably benefit from a reduced sub model due to it being raid focused. I would love to see older games such as Anarchy Online and DAoC adopt a 5$ a month model. I could see the older MMORPGs using this model to gain an influx of players, to see if there is still much interest in the game, and to possibly fund a rework of the title.
You also have the limited time group of players. Me for instance, I only subscribe to 1 MMO at a time simply due to lack of time. Now if I could possibly fund 2 MMO's with 15$ I would be more than likely to dip into other games. I believe this is the only reason that keeps the F2P market afloat. I would bet that a majority of F2P players pay to play another MMO. 15$ a month isnt a big deal but if you jump into 2-3 MMO's it quickly becomes a cell phone bill...
The simple, obvious answer from economics is "yes".
The obvious answer is "No".
You can't beat your competition with price, only quality of your product is what matters. People won't play your "bad" game because it's cheap, they will play it because it is better than others.
Econ 101.
Agree. I would never play that crap of Aion or Rappelz even if they pay me to play. On the other side I would pay any sub for Wow or Swtor. Or even Rift. Only then when I would need break from all this my favorite games and would be presented with EQUALY or at least comparable OTHER games, I could watch for price tag. Maybe.
But that's just me. And you. And many others. On the other side I see there are also so many that would eat any shitty food if CHEAP. So I guess for cheap (not necesarely poor! especially as I'm sure many of them spend few times more for bad habits of theirs then for any sub) people this could matter.
I will always gladly pay sub to have really fun. If game is not fun not even being "free" would not make me play it. Simple as that.
Comments
Why black Fridays only? Why limited offers? If your theory was true, they should make more money if they just sell at lower price all the time.
The reality is, it does not work like that.
Yes, but I think people (and OP especially) is forgetting that credit card payment and banking has a lot of costs.
It maybe invisible to you but not to the people running the game. Setting up transaction systems can cost them a lot.
So there is a problem with MMO I think that sub cost can't be too low (after including all other costs such as servers, datacenters, staffs etc) otherwise they will lose money to transaction fees.
I suspect $5 month is probably the lowest any company can go for monthly subs, if they can pay for the other overheads and still make some profits at that price.
Tons of games out there charge less than $15 and make more than enough to support or expand their team and provide regular updates... See Tibia, Zezenia, RS, ATitD, Eldevin, the list goes on. All tend to be smaller, independent companies whose games are less graphically demanding. I bet lower-end (graphically speaking; the gameplay experiences in these games are some of the best I have had) games like these wouldn't be able to cut it by demanding $15/mo.
Theres a sizeable market for long-term MMOs that will run well on low-end PCs, and theres probably a tenable correlation between having a lower-end PC and not being able to afford $15/mo. As for proving that the decrease in revenue per customer is offset by an increase in total revenue due to higher customer base, I couldn't say. I would love to look at the books of some of these smaller private companies thought to find out
And this is why I laugh at this example. Please get this correct. It is not $.50 a day. it is $.50 for a CHANCE to play. if there is downtime for what ever reason I do not get this money back. Lets take another example Where I live we just got hit with some massive hail and wind damage. My house was without power for 2 days, Add on top of that days that I was unable to play at all for various reasons, lets just call them 5 days. I'm up to 7, I'll leave it at that. Take in a 30 day month and now my sub is roughly $.71 cents (a day)this month.
Do the math. This is why I say it is not X a day, it is a 1 time a month fee that has to be allocated into a monthly budget. I wish I could just pay things on a daily basis, Bills would rock. No need to tightly balance that last paycheck each month to make sure all the bills are paid because everyone wants their money at one (or two) particular times each month. When you add in multiple person sub fee's it (can) get extremely expensive, that one day they all want their money
--> http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs <--
Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
Exactly.
The entire thread is silly in all actuality. The OP presents either intended ruse or lack of understanding of the actual business model of Champions Online.
Champions Online isn't a subscription-based MMO. It's free to play with a monthly VIP level. Any fluctuation in monthly memberships would be more a reflection on the value of 500 zen (included in the package) than anything else.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If a MMO wants to charge a sub fee, then do away with the box price. make it free for 30 days from the start, restricting trade and mail for players who do not sign on for a subscription. Make the subscription $7 - $10.
I'm currently subbed to two games and on my income I could easily afford to sub to more. The issue for me isn't the cost its the time. I play one mmo full time and the other when my main mmo isn't available for whatever reason. They take every minute of my free time.
So no, reducing sub cost would not allow me to play a larger variety of subscription games.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Exactly.. The price in itself has little impact.. The issue for me and most consumers is your return.. Are you getting your money's worth? If a game only gives me $3 worth of entertainment per month, then anything beyond that is wasting my money.. However, if a AAA game is worth $40 a month, then any subscription below that is a good trade.. It's just like golfing.. I can go to a shitty golf course that I really don't care about, but if their green fees are only $10 for 18 holes, I"ll play it.. But as soon as that fee goes up, the less likelihood I'll play.. Same with 4 star courses that I think are way over priced.. Yes, the courses are in pristine condition, but really? $800 for 18 holes is just insane.. I don't care if a buddy of mine told me he has a tee time at Pebble Beach, it's not worth it.. I'd rather go play the shitty $10 course.. LOL
That is simple economics 101.. And that is the ever changing flow of business.. Customers perception of product and service and is it worth it..
edit: Marketing 101 > Sell the sizzle, not the steak.. There are times your product just isn't worth the price tag, so marketing has to find ways to influence customers to believe it is..
Why don't don't you break the numbers down to how much it cost per minute? You know just to make the numbers look more trivial and thus strengthen your case.
Here is what you should really be saying:
-OMG Look I just save 40% daily I'm so subscribing to this game.-
If you saw something you wanted at 40% off the regular price would you not be more tempted? If someone told you you could save 40% on mortgage payments would you not consider that? Naw why should you bother, its only another 40% per day, right?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
So the point of your post is, don't play GW1??
Or is it, don't play any game because it might be boring?? I dunno, you lost me there...
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I don't think that is the issue for most.. I love golf, but I do not subscribe to Golf Digest or Golf magazine for a reason.. The cost of that magazine in itself isn't worth it.. Sure it's 12 issues for $12.. The thing is, the content inside the covers don't interest me.. I don't care for all the commercial ads inside, and the articles are often bland and boring.. The could offer a 40% discount tomorrow and I would still pass on it.. To me that magazine is "OK" free bathroom material next to The National Inquirer.. lol Now, if GD would change their content of the magazine to MY liking, then I might consider subscribing to it..
Will a lower price attract more people? Answer yes - assuming quality etc. is maintained.
The OP then goes on to talk about often arguing that the answer is no. However that would be to a different question namely: would the publisher make more money with a lower subscription. And that answer is: it depends.
You cannot simply say a higher price will make the company more money because ...... well why stop at $15/month. Why not make it $150,000/month. Its a higher price so ....
I don't want to discuss theory because there is a lot of - very cohesive work - around the issue. If anyone is seriously interested I would suggest they checkout a Fundamentals of Marketing site rather than an economic one; it will cover a lot more than simply price.
My own impression:
1. When mmo games came out "everyone" appreciated that the "online element" cost more. People bought search engines; ISPs were expensive; if you wanted to connect two computers together in your house you needed an expensive router top do so. So paying a subscription in addition to the box price and any extra content was "accepted". Not everyone will have been able to afford it but it wasn't seen as unreasonable.
2. Prices felt - people no longer accepted the reason for the sub. So increasingly publishers started to say: with the sub comes content.
3. Today a sub is associated with fleecing basically - since (proper) new content is rare and often comes with a box price.
4. In reality I suspect it may be becoming a "luxury price". Prices that bear no actual link to the actual cost but which make those who purchase such products feel "special".
No Price works for big ticket items as well.
What you mean to say is that the ability to use Price to differentiate your Product is more difficult for basic items. The absolute basic items being e.g. raw material. A bottle of water is a bottle of water is a bottle of water. Doesn't stop sellers spending money to Promote their bottle of water as "special" though.
With a game subscription it comes down to what it actually buys. On day 1 your subscription - the $60 you paid when you bought or downloaded the box - gets you "lots of new stuff". The second subscription - after 30 days - gets you the same stuff. ditto the third.
It would be like subscribing to 12 issues of the Golf Magazine but they then say - well we may send you a 4 page supplement on month 4 and maybe another page on month 7 but the plan for one a month ... sorry. didn't get enough subscribers.
Obviously you are wrong. Why does Walmart succeed? Price. Why does Macdonald succeed? Price. Quality is just one factor, same as price.
And why does F2P succeed? .... no .. not price ... WHALES!
Walmart's success is in logistics, MCD made their money in real estate, F2P provides much better monetization in current market than P2P...
Realistically, no a cheaper price would not lead to more subscribers. This is evident in many F2P and B2P games. For instance, TSW top notch game, cheap as chips to play now, but, a lot of people dislike mechanics used in game. This preference is deemed a quality issue, which I am inclined to agree on.
Quality sells, people who play great games wish to continue to re-invest in it, this is apparent with DLC as it is with subscriptions. Anyone saying "No" are either on the unfortunate side of low income or unemployment to where a subscription could be met as a detriment.
I self identify as a monkey.
Its perfect world and Champions online which, imo, isnt much of an experiment in reduced cost gaming. If this was Blizzard, i bet there would be a large influx of subscribers. Enough to offset the reduced price, maybe and maybe not. For a PvP mmorpg the loss in revenue is offset by increased activity, because you do need players as content.
I can see Eve online having success with a 7-10$ sub model where as I dont really see much gain for Champions online. Wildstar could also probably benefit from a reduced sub model due to it being raid focused. I would love to see older games such as Anarchy Online and DAoC adopt a 5$ a month model. I could see the older MMORPGs using this model to gain an influx of players, to see if there is still much interest in the game, and to possibly fund a rework of the title.
You also have the limited time group of players. Me for instance, I only subscribe to 1 MMO at a time simply due to lack of time. Now if I could possibly fund 2 MMO's with 15$ I would be more than likely to dip into other games. I believe this is the only reason that keeps the F2P market afloat. I would bet that a majority of F2P players pay to play another MMO. 15$ a month isnt a big deal but if you jump into 2-3 MMO's it quickly becomes a cell phone bill...
which allows all of them to charge lower prices, and lure the customers in.
Don't tell me you think Walmart wins customers on quality.
Agree. I would never play that crap of Aion or Rappelz even if they pay me to play. On the other side I would pay any sub for Wow or Swtor. Or even Rift. Only then when I would need break from all this my favorite games and would be presented with EQUALY or at least comparable OTHER games, I could watch for price tag. Maybe.
But that's just me. And you. And many others. On the other side I see there are also so many that would eat any shitty food if CHEAP. So I guess for cheap (not necesarely poor! especially as I'm sure many of them spend few times more for bad habits of theirs then for any sub) people this could matter.
I will always gladly pay sub to have really fun. If game is not fun not even being "free" would not make me play it. Simple as that.