Originally posted by voltt to some of the other comments above, the devs arent making this game to appease all players so if pvp and full loot is not your thing then dont play, plain and simple. If you die in a non pvp zone you have 10 min to get your corpse before it becomes lootable, pvp zones full loot on death. But thats why you go with some guildies they can pick up your loot for you and give it back. Also if you havnt played much the decay rate on your equipment can seem high but as you level your crafting skill and get better tiered weapons and armour its not that bad.
Which I understand. What I want Developers to understand is this whole notion of Forced PvP is not needed for a sandbox MMO. Turbine got it......SOE is hopefully getting it......so why not more. I understand if you want to restrict your game to some niche market then you make it forced PvP. If their fine with that then so be it but we as gamers want....nay we as gamers demand more out of MMO's. It's not like the genre is lacking Forced PvP MMO's and all of them are niche and small in popularity. Precisely because it doesn't appeal to the average MMO gamer.
I like open PvP, even in cities, but only when you have a "real world" model of punishment. Are you a criminal? Well, you have to live as an outlaw. The outlaws will have to build their own cities, where nobody can't trust nobody. Places with black market, shady deals, own rules. An outlaw can't enter in "oficial" cities without pay for his crime. And the punish have to be severe. Follow this path should be something a player really planned, or, in the case where he did something which regrets, feel the justice.
The games today offer too many easy ways for PK. Isn't a risk choice.
The problem with full loot PVP is that millions of players are thinking "theme park" and all the work they put into getting their gear. Then they think EFF THAT! I'm not losing that to some griefer. But if a game has gear that is nothing special, Where the player and his skills and abilities define him, then FFA might work as a system. But these are games that are more susceptable to bad apples and they can ruin a good thing for everyone else. That right there is enough for me to stay away. I'll never play another Open PVP MMO. Not for fear of losing my gear, but just don't want to deal with griefing. I'm done with OWPVP.
To me, there are 2 choices with PVP servers/games.
The problem with full loot PVP is that millions of players are thinking "theme park" and all the work they put into getting their gear. Then they think EFF THAT! I'm not losing that to some griefer. But if a game has gear that is nothing special, Where the player and his skills and abilities define him, then FFA might work as a system. But these are games that are more susceptable to bad apples and they can ruin a good thing for everyone else. That right there is enough for me to stay away. I'll never play another Open PVP MMO. Not for fear of losing my gear, but just don't want to deal with griefing. I'm done with OWPVP.
To me, there are 2 choices with PVP servers/games.
[ ] Yes: I wish to be ganked.
[ ] No: I do not wish to be ganked.
Sorry but I look at it like this: Might as well play a MOBA or FPS for your PvP kicks. I know this is brutally opinionated but it is honest none the less and the evidence points toward this. Millions of players playing games like Leage of Legend or Call of Duty over the thousands playing Eve or Darkfall.
Removing any incentive for progression and gearing is downright an anathema for an RPG, remove any core part of that and the incentives aren't there for the average mmo"RPG" player. Gear should matter, Skill should matter, Exploration should matter, Progression should matter. If you built a PvP MMO where gear means nothing then you might as well play another genre. Just speaking the honest truth here.
Besides it's not like there is any shortage of PvP centric sandboxes to chose from. What there isn't is a plethora of sandbox PvE MMO's to chose from......at least not yet, holding out hope for EQN here. While I understand your side of the argument in wanting a Triple-A Sandbox PvP game, it isn't going to happen. It takes millions of dollars to make an MMO of that caliber and no studio is going to put that kind of money into something that is historically the smallest subset in the genre. Deal with your indie studios or chose another genre.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I am one of the people working on Albion Online and thank you everyone for the comments. One very important information: The world of Albion Online is NOT Open-PvP everywhere.
You start in safe zones and you can decide when you want to go into PvP zones (like in DAoC).
We also have limited PVP zones where attackers get a penalty and therefore less pvp happens (a bit like high/low sec in EVE).
Overall I have met a lot of people who have never been in touch with Open-World-PvP games but started to like the concept when playing Albion Online.
I am one of the people working on Albion Online and thank you everyone for the comments. One very important information: The world of Albion Online is NOT Open-PvP everywhere.
You start in safe zones and you can decide when you want to go into PvP zones (like in DAoC).
We also have limited PVP zones where attackers get a penalty and therefore less pvp happens (a bit like high/low sec in EVE).
Overall I have met a lot of people who have never been in touch with Open-World-PvP games but started to like the concept when playing Albion Online.
Keep this clip in mind but change its context to that of your player-base.
When setting up your game, you think of rules and mechanics to govern and define the player experience and their environment. But remember...................
And at some point that'll turn into "Bah, another one of those? No thanks!"
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
The nice thing about UO, crafted armor was as good as you found off of NPCs. It also did NOT have huge stats associated with them. You could also miss in combat too. How could you not understand what killed UO was the "Age of Shadows" expansion whitch assigned huge stats to equipment. How can you be so blind to such an obvious fact????
So obviously these developers really don't get what made UO a fun exercise. I always have to wonder why developers can't look at what worked and did not work in past games and learn from that. It does not take a genius to figure that out.
What I see with this game is design mistake after design mistake.
I wish them luck, but all I see is a train wreck!
Oh and NO sandbox has to have full loot open pvp. SWG didn't and it was one of the better sandboxes.
I really Like this game however the pvp is really dull at this point in time, It doesnt feel skillful it just seems to be who ever has the most people will win. 2 major big zerg clans allied each other and just run around in groups of 20+ and small guilds dont stand a chance i just laugh tho as if we die most of the stuff just turns into trash ... =/
I dont like that I have to be forced to ally up just to be able to do anything or mass recruit noobs to zerg down the zerg .... however the devs did a good job regarding sieging as i believe its set to 5v5 for terrys and 20vs20 for cities.
Unforuntetly it will be the community which will kill this game for many.
I am one of the people working on Albion Online and thank you everyone for the comments. One very important information: The world of Albion Online is NOT Open-PvP everywhere.
You start in safe zones and you can decide when you want to go into PvP zones (like in DAoC).
We also have limited PVP zones where attackers get a penalty and therefore less pvp happens (a bit like high/low sec in EVE).
Overall I have met a lot of people who have never been in touch with Open-World-PvP games but started to like the concept when playing Albion Online.
If you stick the best crafting materials or the best of anything in the FFA PvP zones then you might as well make the game Open World PvP. Thanks for reply though.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Sorry the game looks too much like a mobile or facebook game. Plus I'm not at all interested in being forced to PvP. See sig for reference.
"If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!"
Well... first of all, you don't get to define the word sandbox. Second, if sandbox means open world, then how does restricting pvp fit into that? Doesn't make sense. You're assuming a starting place of no pvp, and then you view open world pvp games as "forcing pvp" on you. Not logical.
Forced PvP is not and never will be the determinging factor of a sandbox MMO. Up till a few years ago when the Wikipedia was changed the core feature of a sandbox MMO was open world, non linear game. The linearity was always the defining characteristic of whether or not a game was sandbox or not. Crafting, PvP and anything else that is modernly associated with Sandbox can be had in a Themepark, hence the main determining characteristic has always been linearity.
There is no single factor that determines whether a game is a sandbox or not. If you're going to try to define what sandbox means, it's FREEDOM. Open world pvp is a very obvious example of freedom.
Another term to define sandbox would be player-created content. That means interaction and organic game design. Heroes, villains, mercenaries, rivals, etc. Open world pvp fits in PERFECTLY with what defines sandbox games.
And again, you're just shoehorning in the term "forced pvp." Nobody's forcing you to play the game. Having open world pvp is the natural state, it's LESS restrictive.
Games like Asheron's Call, while had an PvP server was never as popular as the PvE only ones and that is why AC will forever be the greatest and todate only PvE sandbox MMO. Plenty of non-MMO's are considered Sandbox.....from Two Worlds to Just Cause and even Skyrim, yet it lacks PvP but are still deemed Sandbox. Until MMO Developers get this through their head you'll never ever ever ever ever have a popular sandbox MMO. Hopefully EQN and SOE is getting this and are on the cusp of breaking the mode for the Sandbox MMO.
The reason there's no open world pvp in games like skyrim is because there are any other players.....? Not sure what you're getting at. I know what you THINK you're getting at, but it doesn't make sense. You're assuming that people like me are claiming that you can't have a sandbox game without open world pvp. Wrong. What I'm saying is that sandbox is about less restrictions, and that's why so many sandbox games are also open world pvp.
Also, FFXI was another (maybe better?) example of a pve-only sandbox game. But the reason there are so few example of that is because open world pvp fits perfectly with sandbox.
The problem with full loot PVP is that millions of players are thinking "theme park" and all the work they put into getting their gear. Then they think EFF THAT! I'm not losing that to some griefer. But if a game has gear that is nothing special, Where the player and his skills and abilities define him, then FFA might work as a system. But these are games that are more susceptable to bad apples and they can ruin a good thing for everyone else. That right there is enough for me to stay away. I'll never play another Open PVP MMO. Not for fear of losing my gear, but just don't want to deal with griefing. I'm done with OWPVP.
To me, there are 2 choices with PVP servers/games.
[ ] Yes: I wish to be ganked.
[ ] No: I do not wish to be ganked.
Gotta have the low points in order to get the most out of the high points. I prefer a game that allows for natural, organic, player-driven encounters. After playing games like these, nothing else does it for me. Same for most other people. Once you go sandbox, you never go back.
Though as a whole -- and more to the question at hand -- I'm used to full looting systems. They're not bad or scary if you know how they're done and you understand the system / the system is well worked out.
I think a lot of people assume because it's an MMO that they will be losing raid gear/epic weapons to random griefers. I think if these games were more open about how readily available gear is then more people would play them.
Also if you're the PvE/Crafter type, make friends and equip them so they can protect you. Or become rich enough to just hire a merc army.
Comments
I like open PvP, even in cities, but only when you have a "real world" model of punishment. Are you a criminal? Well, you have to live as an outlaw. The outlaws will have to build their own cities, where nobody can't trust nobody. Places with black market, shady deals, own rules. An outlaw can't enter in "oficial" cities without pay for his crime. And the punish have to be severe. Follow this path should be something a player really planned, or, in the case where he did something which regrets, feel the justice.
The games today offer too many easy ways for PK. Isn't a risk choice.
The problem with full loot PVP is that millions of players are thinking "theme park" and all the work they put into getting their gear. Then they think EFF THAT! I'm not losing that to some griefer. But if a game has gear that is nothing special, Where the player and his skills and abilities define him, then FFA might work as a system. But these are games that are more susceptable to bad apples and they can ruin a good thing for everyone else. That right there is enough for me to stay away. I'll never play another Open PVP MMO. Not for fear of losing my gear, but just don't want to deal with griefing. I'm done with OWPVP.
To me, there are 2 choices with PVP servers/games.
[ ] Yes: I wish to be ganked.
[ ] No: I do not wish to be ganked.
Sorry but I look at it like this: Might as well play a MOBA or FPS for your PvP kicks. I know this is brutally opinionated but it is honest none the less and the evidence points toward this. Millions of players playing games like Leage of Legend or Call of Duty over the thousands playing Eve or Darkfall.
Removing any incentive for progression and gearing is downright an anathema for an RPG, remove any core part of that and the incentives aren't there for the average mmo"RPG" player. Gear should matter, Skill should matter, Exploration should matter, Progression should matter. If you built a PvP MMO where gear means nothing then you might as well play another genre. Just speaking the honest truth here.
Besides it's not like there is any shortage of PvP centric sandboxes to chose from. What there isn't is a plethora of sandbox PvE MMO's to chose from......at least not yet, holding out hope for EQN here. While I understand your side of the argument in wanting a Triple-A Sandbox PvP game, it isn't going to happen. It takes millions of dollars to make an MMO of that caliber and no studio is going to put that kind of money into something that is historically the smallest subset in the genre. Deal with your indie studios or chose another genre.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Hello guys,
I am one of the people working on Albion Online and thank you everyone for the comments. One very important information: The world of Albion Online is NOT Open-PvP everywhere.
You start in safe zones and you can decide when you want to go into PvP zones (like in DAoC).
We also have limited PVP zones where attackers get a penalty and therefore less pvp happens (a bit like high/low sec in EVE).
Overall I have met a lot of people who have never been in touch with Open-World-PvP games but started to like the concept when playing Albion Online.
Here is a good video explaining a lot of Albion Online from our current running Alpha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=362EEQJn4Nw&list=UUHWRzq45vbfzPagu3AuzwGQ
Kind regards,
Stefan
A medieval sandbox MMO
http://www.facebook.com/albiononline/
Love open pvp full loot games.. will check this out when its released but i am not fan of the art style they ahve gone with or the top down view.
Still its godo to finally be getting a few more options other than Darkfall and Mortal online.
Hello, I think it's great that the team want's to hear input from potential players. If there was one message I had, it would be this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkWeMvrNiOM
Keep this clip in mind but change its context to that of your player-base.
When setting up your game, you think of rules and mechanics to govern and define the player experience and their environment. But remember...................
And at some point that'll turn into "Bah, another one of those? No thanks!"
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
The nice thing about UO, crafted armor was as good as you found off of NPCs. It also did NOT have huge stats associated with them. You could also miss in combat too. How could you not understand what killed UO was the "Age of Shadows" expansion whitch assigned huge stats to equipment. How can you be so blind to such an obvious fact????
So obviously these developers really don't get what made UO a fun exercise. I always have to wonder why developers can't look at what worked and did not work in past games and learn from that. It does not take a genius to figure that out.
What I see with this game is design mistake after design mistake.
I wish them luck, but all I see is a train wreck!
Oh and NO sandbox has to have full loot open pvp. SWG didn't and it was one of the better sandboxes.
I really Like this game however the pvp is really dull at this point in time, It doesnt feel skillful it just seems to be who ever has the most people will win. 2 major big zerg clans allied each other and just run around in groups of 20+ and small guilds dont stand a chance i just laugh tho as if we die most of the stuff just turns into trash ... =/
I dont like that I have to be forced to ally up just to be able to do anything or mass recruit noobs to zerg down the zerg .... however the devs did a good job regarding sieging as i believe its set to 5v5 for terrys and 20vs20 for cities.
Unforuntetly it will be the community which will kill this game for many.
If you stick the best crafting materials or the best of anything in the FFA PvP zones then you might as well make the game Open World PvP. Thanks for reply though.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
You'll never see a Triple-A PvP Sandbox MMO. Get used to Indie or more to another genre.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
There is no single factor that determines whether a game is a sandbox or not. If you're going to try to define what sandbox means, it's FREEDOM. Open world pvp is a very obvious example of freedom.
Another term to define sandbox would be player-created content. That means interaction and organic game design. Heroes, villains, mercenaries, rivals, etc. Open world pvp fits in PERFECTLY with what defines sandbox games.
And again, you're just shoehorning in the term "forced pvp." Nobody's forcing you to play the game. Having open world pvp is the natural state, it's LESS restrictive.
The reason there's no open world pvp in games like skyrim is because there are any other players.....? Not sure what you're getting at. I know what you THINK you're getting at, but it doesn't make sense. You're assuming that people like me are claiming that you can't have a sandbox game without open world pvp. Wrong. What I'm saying is that sandbox is about less restrictions, and that's why so many sandbox games are also open world pvp.
Also, FFXI was another (maybe better?) example of a pve-only sandbox game. But the reason there are so few example of that is because open world pvp fits perfectly with sandbox.
Gotta have the low points in order to get the most out of the high points. I prefer a game that allows for natural, organic, player-driven encounters. After playing games like these, nothing else does it for me. Same for most other people. Once you go sandbox, you never go back.
I think a lot of people assume because it's an MMO that they will be losing raid gear/epic weapons to random griefers. I think if these games were more open about how readily available gear is then more people would play them.
Also if you're the PvE/Crafter type, make friends and equip them so they can protect you. Or become rich enough to just hire a merc army.