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Eluwien
Member UncommonPosts: 196
The way I see it there are two emerging groups of modern dim wits
Pay to win - critics to the left || Pay to play - critics to the right
The arguments and discussions go on for kilometers on these forums and others alike, and only thing reading them proves is how victims of entitlement upbringing egalitarian liberals have brought their misconception of reality to be a misconception how MMORPG's should be.
"Is this or that pay to win", "How subscription is so bad", "Never sell advantage over me", "I wont pay if paying effects the gaming experience", "I will cry if I lose", it just goes on and on, deeper and deeper into schemantics and word meanings, while it's abundantly obvious that the fundamental reasoning is based on underlying concept where paying for enterntainment is repulsive and how even the slightest unfairness or inequality is attacked as if it is the damn ISIS.
Don't these people feel in anyway contradicted in their thoughts and words when they scream like horde of hipster goblins against paid in-game benefits and for equal treatment for all players, while in practice it means that it brings the whole community down to the level of the lowest nominator, a player who just finds paying repulsive - or is simply poor. Time limited can't pay for speed ups. Skill limited can't pay for easier game experience. Communities can't pay for extra content. Don't they get that this means developer can't deliver better games?
No, because it's "unfair" and "I'm entitled to equal chance of winning". Frack you.
Monthly subscription fee faced the same repulsion for paying. "It's not fair because people who play less pay the same amount". Suddenly the self deceiving bloodsuckers of this genre turned their egalitarian philosohpy upside down for their own twisted reality where fun should be free. They got this idea through by repeating "P2P not fair for those who pay the same amount, but play less, to get less value from the game". It's equal counterpart means that it would be fair that those who play less, paid the same, get more out of the game ... aka, paid benefits. But somehow when P2P games tried to allow boosters for those who were time limited, 7th hell broke loose. This if anything is a proof, that it's more about repulsion for paying and entitlement "give me all the entertainment for free" mentality, than anything else that can be disquised as an argument.
Don't these minds which are not developed enough for logical conversation realise what they have done when they voiced these "thoughts". Don't they get what brining the misconception of general equality into a virtual reality does to it's most core ascepts that makes it special, what makes its so much more enjoyable than reality? No, they didn't, and thats why I want to slap them.
Your midguided whine has been heard, and now every MMORPG player has equally lost.
Everyone having equal chance to win, means no one wins.
If its fair to everyone, no one has advantage. No one becomes better than others. So everyone is as bad.
Egalitarism removes all risks and penalties, as they happen only to those who fail. No one is allowed to fail, so no one is allowed a reward either.
Egalitarism removed rock paper scissors and brought in "every class is the same". Lowest nominator, idiots.
If you are forced to be fair, you can't dominate. If you can't dominate, how can there be enemies? As there can't be enemies, you can't win. Battlegrounds are meaningles form of PVP, as there is no domination, no victory and they're not really enemies.
If no one is winning, what is there to aim for? At the end of the progression, you're all the same. Thus linearly growing games only fill more progression so you don't notice that you lack any sort of meaningful interaction.
P2W as an option, not mandatory, doesn't remove from the experience you individually have. It maeby adds stronger enemies, thus risk, thus rewards.
Pay to play is a spamer and bot wall.
Pay to play is good way to keep kids from playing adults games. Also, it allows adult games.
Pay to play lowers risk for production, more games in general would get green light.
Pay to play allows better production values over time and longer total lifespan.
Pay to play promotes product loyalty.
Pay to play removes business incentive for attempting to grab as much money off you as possible, and instead deliver quality content. They only get flat amount, if they keep flat number of players pleased.
People who could enjoy games, if they could buy a booster every now and then are gone. Paying customers, part of the community, mostly stable adults, gone.
Those with excess money, who would pour it if allowed to superexceed, allowing higher production value. Gone.
F2P allows unlimited accounts. Thank these F2P guys for spammers, gold sellers, bots, queues, undesirable players. This hurts everyone, the business, the launches, the overall gaming experience, the sustainability of the game.
F2P promotes come-and-go playstyle, disloyalty, realm/server hops, loose communities, thus breaking community spirit.
F2P makes money out of "whales", google it up, it's unethical abuse of addiction.
Money needs to change hands for quality to be ensured is more often true than not.
In past 5 years multiplayer games became solo-online games, as fair doesn't actually exist in human interaction. And it shouldn't, its not natural. Only our government and laws should be fair, isn't that enough to fight for? Go argue those schemantics, go fight for equal rights for all mankind, fair access to free education, decent chance. Leave all that out of MMORPG's, they thrive on conflict. Thats what they're there for, a virtual reality where we can fight, conquer, dominate, own, and yes lose, die and pay abit to fight back.
And spend a god damn buck to the fun you have in the process. That would be fair treatment of those who made the game.
Don't get me wrong - mandatory disclaimer
While these P2W and P2P critics, whose loud scream over the past decade has practically wrecked what MMORPG's could be and reduced them to the level of the most stupid player, removed all reward and torn down the realm pride. There are still masses of silent players who enjoy the genre. For you, who have a back bone, who can handle a bit of unfairness that you know will drive rewarding feelings. For you whose pocket money allows you to pay for your entertainment and are willing to use it. For you who believe in a community, realm pride, loyalty and still remember what the 2nd M means, I raise my hat to you and truly hope you'd be more audible voice in the future and take a stand.
Comments
P2P is the only way for me.
I like to support products I enjoy, however, I'm not willing to support "free" players in F2P/B2P cash shop games anymore - I've spent enough money in cash shops and quite frankly, I'll just not play those games anymore or in the future. I'm paying for ME to play, not for others.
It's also an inducement to credit card fraud. Plenty of pay to play games have had problems with spammers and bots.
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To me, the question is not "do I have to pay?" but "how much do I have to pay?" I have no problem with paying $15/month for a game that I like. But when someone who pays $100/month is at a big disadvantage as compared to someone who pays $200/month, I have a big problem with that.
Totally agree, and I'm very much in the same boat as you.
I've tried a good few F2P games just to have a look or I got caught up in them as they dropped their P2P system (thanks for nothing SWTOR!!!), and I personally hate them. It's either a toxic hellhole full of asshats or it's spam heaven with bots & gold sellers.
Also agree with what the op says about P2P building communities and having a stable income to make the product better for all (ie. more stuff to do in the long run).
The only downside to that (imo) is the LRG system that let's other subbed players act like asshats because they can get away with it as you'll most likely never meet them again (hopefully). The joint battlenet servers on WoW totally killed that game for me (along with Cata & Pandaville ofc lol), you turn up for a "fun" event like winter veil only to find 100 asshats on flying mounts on greatfather winter... I've not played it since, way to go guys!
No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!
...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!
I feel the same way. I just wanna pay the $14.99 a month and know that I have access to everything in the game. I hate this F2P nonsense where they nickel-and-dime you for everything.
I don't mind paying if i feel it's worth it. If a game is F2P, it's F2P. I don't buy something from the shop just to actually having paid something. If they don't want people really playing for free, don't make it F2P. On the other hand, if i like the game and there is something on the shop i like, i don't mind paying, as long as it's reasonable for the thing in question, so no €50 for a new hairstyle.
If a game forces the cash shop on me, as you literally hit a new wall you can't get past without paying, or just barely with hundreds of hours of grind, it certainly makes me less inclined to buying.
The things in a cash shop should be auxillary. That doesn't mean it can't be a flat out character upgrade in some form, or stuff like equipment protection when upgrading (enhancing/enchanting and stuff), as long as there is a reasonable chance of achieving the same without (so a couple of tries, not several dozen or hundred) or the end effect isn't too glaring. Like, making a dungeon impossible to beat unless you bought a specifc item from the cash shop or whatever.
E.g, i like the way Vindictus (EU) does it (mostly). There are a lot of visual upgrades there, so new outfits. But you aren't limited to the same old look without buying, either, because the game offers so many different armors - on all levels, and you can fuse it, so you can choose from the whole range even when wearing endgame equipment.
The also sell stuff like enhancment runes etc., but you can get quite far even without using them. There are also regularly event where you can get some, and you can buy/sell them (like most stuff), so even if you want them you do not need to spend cold hard cash, but can use gold.
Neverwinter on the other hand has a quite heavy cash shop. Like, you can buy a epic mount for as low as 2000 Zen or so, which equals around $25 or 1.25 million AD (astral diamonds). $25 is already quite far from "micro" as in micro transactions. But: To upgrade the best mount you can get by simply playing to epic, you had to spent like 2.8 million AD. It's still 2 million AD now that theys reduced it. So a whopping 5600/4000 Zen, which equasl around $56 or $40. So it's still costs 60% more. Now, you can exchange AD and Zen, so you do not have to spend Zen personally, but in the end *someone* did. And as an average player, you will not be swimming in millions of AD in the first place.
There is also the issue with upgrading enchantments. There are 5 levels for most enchantments, meaning you have to upgrade 4 times to get the best. Each time with a 1% chance. You will also need the same enchantment twice, once the one you want to upgrade, once as ingredient. So you need to gamble 15 times. Or you buy a ward that guarentees success for $10. You can get that for free, by (very low)chance, but no where in the amounts needed.
By the way, you may also want to equip both your weapon and your armor with the best you can get. Or several weapons/armors..on several characters.
Another big problem is that you can not sell most stuff that would actually be worth something, so most loot. Event items are usually bound, too, and you do not get wards or high level enchants or epic mounts, but regular mounts or artifacts etc., so instead of allowing you to shorten the grind a bit, you either have to basically ignore or get rid of the event items, or grind even more to upgrade those, too.
The good thing is that there is literally only one armor and weapon per class thats viable if you want to go for the best, and there is basically only one outfit per class (each armor looks almost the same. It's like the skirt is two cm shorter, or the sash goes from left to right instead of right to left etc, but thats it.
This is the kind of cash shop that makes me NOT want to spend anything, because there is no end to the things you need to buy, and the one thing i want most (viable options to change the looks of my character) is basically unavailable.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Yuppers, and there's really nothing wrong with that. F2P is fine as long as we aren't proving that crappy cookie-cutter games are "ok". Unfortunately, we seem to do that too often. Take a look at Candy Crush or Clash of Clans. The paradigm is just crazy and it won't end well.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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My past year of spending / games played
Buy to play
Cod ghosts - $15 ebay xb1
BF4 - $25 ebay xb1
Diablo 3 - $39 Xb1
GTA4 - $5 steam pc
Halo - $60 xb1
Destiny - $95 ps4 ( ouch my butt hurts)
Sub games spending
WoW - approx $ 200 pc
Wildstar - $45 pc
ESO - $0 beta was enough pc
FFARR - $40 ps4
psn sub $50
Xbl sub $50
F2p
ArcheAge - $0
Neverwinter - $0
RIFT - $0
Stwtor - $0
Ps2 - $0
Dota2 - $0
Hearthstone - $0
Well i prefer the game to come out as P2P when it comes to mmo's and if in the long run it is not as good as it should be then becomes F2P. There is some games that can not have that model like fps, rpg, etc.. Because lets face it they can't keep the players online to ply for that long or if they can they don't offer the content that mmo's do.
The thing i don't like is F2P games that comes right out as that. Because i know they will have in-game shop from the start and they are usually the same thing over and over with different graphics and spell re-written to give new shinny colors and effect but in the end they are all the same grindy little games. There missing something that P2P has. But because there is some people that prefer those games, they come out at a rate that surpass the real good mmo's and it is killing the genre to the point that even the best mmo's out there are having a hard time and even the future ones. They even change the names of the games when it has failed and replublish them a few years after and makes some tweaks to them and still fails. That is what F2P is.
So in the end P2P is the way to go for me at least.
I have no problem paying for a game... a boxed game... you know, the type that came on a CD/DVD and you installed it on your machine and were free to play it for all eternity. Closest thing in online gaming is B2P.
I subbed to WoW for a number of years but that was because there was a strong community of friends playing together. Not the case anymore... you're playing with a bunch of strangers who could care less who was playing with them and vice-versa. The subscription model is dead because it no longer delivers on the one thing that made the subscription worthwhile... community. And quite frankly it never will deliver it ever again.
Just sell us the game. Then put out real expansions every year or two. Sell us those. The hell with subscriptions, they aren't worth the money. It's like paying for an extended warranty that covers the manufacturer's warranty period. Fleecing, nothing more, nothing less.
If they want to go the F2P route... no problem, that's their choice. They could have gotten a box price, but hey, they wish to gamble on those who live in the cash shop to recoup their costs. If the game is too restrictive, I won't play it for long. Since most games don't last that long, it really doesn't matter.
Long term investments in games are over. Everyone jumps to the new shiny as soon as it hits the streets. They know this, so they are no longer as invested in any game as they used to be. It's just a character of many characters that they will play. If another game sounds more exciting, off they go... myself included.
Hence why B2P is the best model. They may want us to lease software for all eternity but it's not cost effective to the consumer, just pure profit for the developer. They're not paying my mortgage, why should I pay for theirs?
Cheap? No. Smart. Sell me the game or don't... but don't expect me to lease it.
This is like a perfect example of a F2P lover in P2P clothing. This is pretty much exactly what the OP is talking about. You SAY that P2P is your favourite model, but you don't really play any P2P games, "right now". You'll play F2P games that started out as P2P and then went F2P, but definitely not games that are straight-up F2P like, say Archeage. You equate P2P with quality and F2P with crap. The reality is, though, that you like F2P games, as long as you don't have to actually pay for it. So you actually ARE the bloodsucker that the OP is talking about to a "T".
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Nice way to start your post by insulting both sides of the topic.
First - I think P2P only works when the product gives you a lot and in return you pay for it. WoW is currently the only game that seems to be doing that - all others pale in comparison and I dislike WoW also. A game that says it is F2P and then - makes sure you are so crippled that you really HAVE to sub to it is a P2W in my estimation - AA is a great example. In order to have a farm and own land you have to sub and have a founders pak (that is like buying the box but much more expensive) and then you still can't do it all because of the shitty LP system that ties your hands. IF you have to continually throw money down the rat hole (buying LP potions for example from the CS) in order to get anywhere in the game - that is P2W. Heck, you even have to have LP in order to report a bot/gold spammer in AA - that is just stupid.
Second - the fee for the game should not be ridiculous. I would like to say that 5 USD a month is more than fair for a P2P game. Any more and then they are competing with Netflix, etc. which gives you so much more variety that there is no comparison.
Third - the game companies have not really been good with the games they have put out recently. AA ESO, etc are all really mediocre to poor games that when WoW, ES or other games like that came out, they would have been trounced.
Fourth - The big problem is players are so desperate for anything, they basically turn a blind eye to how the game is actually setup. Then, with rose coloured glasses on, they defend the game, because they spent so much money on it.
^this.
If its a GOOD p2p game, I'll subscribe. If its a GOOD p2w game, I'll drop some money on wrecking other people in PvP. Too many kids today expect a game thats A: completely free and B: totally balanced. Its just entitlement issues and no clue of how the business world works. They're like those people that expect a band to live off selling t-shirts at a concert or something.
Wait a minute. Are we even sure who 'these people' are? I'll admit to being a little mystified as to who exactly is supposed to be in the wrong. I don't want to assume that it's a standard "F2P is bad" discussion when it isn't.
Are we all just wading in, fists swinging with whatever side of the debate we think is relevant to our interests? I mean, I can do that, but this discussion seems remarkably undefined. I'd like to know I'm jumping into a random free for all before I start running.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Even B2P games have a HEAVY cash shop these days, although they sometimes can get away with sticking to mostly cosmetics. Look at GW2 for example. There are no new cosmetic items that come out in game and you only get new ones via the cash shop now (or buying from someone else using the cash shop). Sure, you can't buy anything really significant that'll give you a significant advantage over everyone else (what with like, eveyrone being capped out and all) but as several GW2 players have realized, the only reason for most of them to keep playing the game in the first place when there's only horizontal progression left is the cosmetics...
Oh, wait, is that not what's happening here? Lol.
Yeah, I had to re-read my post, actually. I think that what I was getting at was that people who are repulsed by paying for a game are of no consequence to the financial success of the game anyway and, therefore, don't exist as far as the company is concerned. I don't think it really matters the model, but P2P kinda puts everyone on the same level, right?
My second point was just that I think that the F2P model can be profitable, but the players do very little, right now, to positively influence the industry by backing games that are ACTUALLY free. We usually end up with P2W or "Death by a thousand paper cuts" type games like, apparently, Archeage or, on the other side of the spectrum, Candy Crush. You choose either model. I'm sure they're both profitable in North America. Then I look at something like PoE and find it funny that people complain about buying bag slots, lol. Makes my brain hurt.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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That makes sense. The people who aren't going to pay money don't matter. Their opinions don't really matter either. I think it's hard to see which people are the people who aren't going to pay money though. When someone complains about paying for bag slots, are they complaining about paying, or would they really rather pay for an XP potion kind of thing? Is someone who complains about subscriptions really just complaining about paying money at all, or would they really prefer to pay for bag slots, XP potions, etc.?
Then there are people like me who would rather pay a subscription, but only if I can buy it a month at a time with no recurring charges. This is how I play WoW. If I want a month of time, I buy it, and when it's up, I'll either buy another month, or take a month off. It's a teeny, tiny difference, but for me, it's the difference between actually playing WoW or giving it a pass. I really think more games should do this. When I get into a F2P game, there is nearly zero chance that I'm going to buy anything. I'm not even sure why. I would just rather pay for blanket access with a single, initial purchase or for blanket access through monthly game time. I don't have a good reason for this, it amounts to mostly the same thing and the same amount of money over the same amount of time, but I prefer the B2P/P2P models. *shrug* I get to the hard stop pay wall in a F2P game and then just stop playing. I am one of those freeloaders, but I'm not someone who is unwilling to pay money in general to play games. All the unplayed but paid for games in my Steam games list would attest to that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Let's not bash around those freeloaders, because they are there for your entertainment.
Though i don't really like to spend money on "F2P" games, i do it time to time.
Mostly, within those games i like to play. And to be honest, there is none at this moment.
Most of these games also tend to have serious community issues.
And why else would i play an mmo, if not for the sake of playing with other people.
So i pass on the F2P camp.
I've played only one P2P game with subscription, which was Aion.
And "i felt betrayed" when i got banned due to an argument with a legion leader that had a GM amongst his men.
Sure the official version was that, i was caught using third party sofwares.
Yeah, i hacked myself to death, with my low dps templar. And died in pvp all the time on purpose.
And im sure most of the players know how bad it feel loosing everything.
So im not sure, if i'd like to support the P2P camp either.
B2P model is also thing though.
I can't even say any other title than GW2 and perhaps TSW.
And im not really interested in those.
Just wish i'd see anything, that actually worth the money.Lol, well I'm no less guilty. I do subscribe to WoW. I subscribed to bot SWTOR and RIFT as well, but not all at the same time (just too much). I do love F2P though. I actually started both RIFT and SWTOR as F2P, but the value was there to buy the subscription. I play many games that I don't pay for. I don't really play them long-term, but there are usually inherent issues surrounding that, too. Games where I do play extensively, though, or return to periodically, I do buy into. I buy something. I buy bag slots, or character slots. I just have a real hard time paying for consumables. It's what I never went back to RoM (even though I spent money there). Gosh, I wonder what my house looks like at this point. Probably pretty dusty. If your game is good enough, you shouldn't need to sell XP Pots. I know they're looking for recurring income, but I think that implementing hybrid systems is a much better way to get that recurring income.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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