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Did the rise of the MOBA ruin the MMORPG?
Vesavius
Member RarePosts: 7,908
I don't play MOBAs, they just don't appeal to me, so I ask this as a question rather than making it as a statement.
This isn't a thread about success through numbers and sales, it is a thread about the success of the genre to be everything it once promised.
Many people blame WoW for "ruining the genre", but I wonder if we are looking in the wrong place and that WoW itself was a victim... A victim of MOBA design philosophies, monetisation, and community.
MMORPG devs clearly play MOBAs more than each others games, so how much of what they experienced and heard in the echo chamber of the MOBA community influenced them?
Should be be blaming these games, in a large part, for where we are right now this genre?
So, thoughts about the toxic reach of the MOBA into the DNA of the MMORPG. Go for it.
Comments
I dont see much connection between mobas and mmorpgs. I'm not sure what exactly you are saying because you dont say it
more like a general statement that mobas would affect mmorpgs somehow.
At least in the games I play I dont know what it could be, and the mmorpg future seems more diverse than any time before, with all kinds of sandbox and sandparks and space games coming that are very far from the wow clone style we have been enduring for years.
Wasn't Warcraft 3 one of the first MBAs? (no "O" in there) In that regards, I guess you can still blame Warcraft, lol.
More seriously, I think MOBAs didn't kill MMOs so much as spin off of them. It's like the FPS genre and MMO genre had a baby and only the PvP genes were inherited with the open world aspects that kept on getting in the way gone.
If anything, the only way that MOBAs are killing MMOs is making it blatantly obvious that most MMO aspects only get in the way of the PvP (not just open-world PvP either. I remember tons of people saying they wanted to and loved the PvP in Elder Scrolls Online but couldn't stand the PvE grind that they needed to do to keep up with others so they quit)
MMORPG players don't really have any interest in MOBAs. About the only part of MOBAs that has leeched into MMORPGs is on the game journalism side. It is kind of disappointing to see MMORPG gaming sites trying to run after the biggest crowd possible and not prioritizing their time to dig up more information on indie MMORPGs.
Without actually interviewing developers about this subject, it's hard to say how much they've been influenced. Having said that, I think a case can be made for MOBA influence on, if not ruining MMORPGs.
Take SWTOR for example. Any fun I was having in that game was completely stamped out by its 90 degree shift toward arena combat. Flashpoints and Operations. It's clear that making story content was too expensive moving forward; but MOBA style content is cheap to make....more bang for the buck.
Something similar happened in LOTRO but not to the debilitating extent as in SWTOR. Small arena pve play was introduced with Skirmishes. It hasn't taken over the game, thankfully, but it has a strong presence.
Also, I had hoped Mechwarrior Online would have added more persistence to its game...something the developers hinted at. But it seems they've resigned themselves to a lobby/MOBA style game. Which is sad, and why I stopped playing it.
I'm not sure to what extent other games have felt the MOBA influence. It is clear though that the profit margin is much greater on MOBA style content, so I can see it having an impact.
MMos aren't really 'ruined' to make the claim. If you mean the 'decline' in terms of new MMo getting huge numbers, its primarily on the hands of the MMo market. There are vastly more MMos out there, meaning numbers are thinned much more then they use to.
Its the quantity that hurt MMos. MOBA likely had little to no effect on MMos at all.
MOBAs are good at what they do. They aren't my thing but I can respect them. MMORPGs are however totally different games from MOBAs. The only way MOBAs will ruin MMORPGs is if devs of MMORPGs try to copy MOBAs in order to cash in on their success. We are already seeing this in the combat systems of some newer games unfortunately.
Eh, and on the other hand you have PvPers complaining the game doesn't cater to them enough.
The upcoming expansion's a good example of that; "What?! No new WZ in SoR?! I'm cancelling my account!"
Shadow of Revan will bring a lot of story content from the sound of it, and a unique class mission for each class that goes through the storyline. So story content is definitely still being made.
More on topic: MOBAs are an entirely different genre, and unless we're talking about an MMO with castle sieges and other tangible PvP rewards, MOBAs do PvP better than MMOs for the most part. Kinda like FPS games have always done.
Arena combat, warzones and other PvP elements have been present on MMOs before MOBAs even saw the light of day, and so have Dungeons (Flashpoints) and Raids (Operations). The addition of more of them has nothing to do with MOBAs, just with catering to a different subset of players (those who enjoy group content).
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
well, if many players like MOBA more than MMORPGs, shouldn't we be glad that devs innovate and find something better?
Your premise is as if super hero movies are ruining drama tv .... well to some extent ... all entertainment competes with one another for the audience money & time. So in a business point of view, may be "ruining" is accurate. But i don't think is a bad thing to innovate and have new types of entertainment in the market.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
With the more players statement ... here are 2 simple facts:
1. LoL the most popular MOBA had 620 milllion dollars revenue in 2013 and a "self declared" player number of 67 million...
2. WoW the most popular MMORPG had 1.04 billion dollars revenue worldwide and a "self declared" player numbrr of 7.5 million...
So 2 possibilities here: OR the players in LoL are not very much engaged to even spend 12 dollars in game each year to acquire new Heroes. (and that's an understatement as they acually would spend LESS than 1 dollar a month ON AVERAGE)...
.... OR ... the self declared "active players" is complete and utter bull shit PR claim by a company owned by some Chinese company (also known for inventing nmbers on the fly). How about accounts created ?
In my view, this MOBA genre IS popular but not to the degree everyone else thinks.
For instance did you know that Supercell with just 3 iPad/iPhone games made 950 million dollars in 2013 ???
And personally I don't know ANYONE playing LOL extensively, except for trying it for a few plays and than ditching it (although that is just pure anecdotal evidence, the Above Figures are hard $$$$ facts ....)
LoL got a first boost when Xfire showed it was number one... the moment both Riot and Xfire fell into ... the same hands... These days Xfire is so obsolete that even CoD gets more plays over there. The same for Twitch e sports. It is quite normal that pvp is more viewed than mostly pve games.
So in my view Moba/Dota is not so much popular as everyonr thinks it is, except for the PvP crowd. In any case it is a genre that is doomed to fail in the long run as it only attracts males and is based on a 15 year old engine.
Blizzard will be surprised by the lack of REAL player numbers this genre has to offer when they 'll launch HotS.
Revenue never lies.
Sure record number of players charged into the space, making big,short term money, but they quickly filed back out leaving most titles a wasteland.
MOBAS cater more to people who really didn't like the full gameplay experience that MMOs try to provide, rather they focus on the combat side which is what most of those MMORPG tourists were really only interested in.
Remember the guy who always said he only enjoyed PVP and hatred leveling, crafting and socializing? He's off playing MOBAs now more often than not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This pretty much sums it up. Kids typically can't afford the equipment to play other games. The moba is free and you can play it on almost any pc.I am one of these guys and I think BG PvP or even Arenas beat any MoBa any time.
As I commented above: even the most popular DOTA game of the last years has a doubtful number of revenue compared to the player numbers they proclaim.
It just filled a great spot in e-sports (views) as SC2 mechanics are old and going back to 20 years of RTS.
It is a good market but only played by hardcore pvp ers. In no way they have 67 million "active" players in LoL. the revenue proves it.
It is a kind of sad that even Blizzard thinks that another Dota game will have more success than their new MMORPG. I bet they will be surprised by the real numbers though.
Hearthstone has more potential than yet another new dota game (just by looking at 50% of humanity , the female species
)
I believe what the Op is saying, is that over time, the Persistant World part of MMO definition was removed in order to fit MOBA and CORPG games into the list of MMOs.
This site been a prime example. Before the Staff of this site came out with a statement, they were adding MOBA/CORPGs to the game list and confusing consumers of the definition of what is and isnt a MMO.
So now we are at the point, were any developer can hype up their new game, and call it a MMO, but hide as much details of the game behind a Paywall/NDA/Beta to prevent consumers from knowing the game really is a MOBA/CORPG and not a MMO.
we saw this same tactic I mentioned above with Star Trek Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, etc.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
And what have we seen grow in the MMORPG space?
That's right, much easier leveling, a huge general shift away from the importance of crafting, and the need for socialising being reduced to the barest minimum. Add to this the ever increasing reliance on arenas and PvP as a design focus, including death matches and capture the flag games.
It seems MMORPGs may well be chasing that guy as well, by becoming more MOBA like in their philosophy of all this and 'small chunk' play (30-60 mins).
And what of the shrinking of skills on the hotbar? The deliberate chasing of E-Sport balance?
I am surprised so few can understand what's being said in the OP and can't draw parallels... Maybe there are just a lot of newer players now that don't fully understand how these games have actually changed, I don't know.
I'd say MOBA's did have an impact on PvP population.
A lot of PvPers who just want to PvP but don't want to engage in any of the other RPG content (crafting, gathering, exploring, questing) have found a home in MOBA's. They basically offer a place to hop in, punch each other in the face, and then hop out. You get an accelerated leveling system in which you can max out in 15 minutes or so, and by then the match is over and you re-queue, often with a different class/role/playstyle.
Makes sense, so basically the question should be did moba damage instanced pvp within mmorpgs? I would say yes based on the scenario Rusque and many others have described.I believe Arena Esport PvP became popular in MMOs because WoW during TBC was trying to copy Guild Wars 1 which at the time was overhyped for its PvP arena stuff.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Yes, and yes.
TBC was released in 2007, and what was soaring in popularity in 2007?
Yup, MOBAs, as in DotA. And of course WoW devs were playing them.
Are we really saying that WoW devs looked towards a niche game such as GW for influence and not the already incredibly popular games that they themselves were playing? Even ignoring the facts of DotA's origins?
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/15/feature/8275/The-Impact-of-WoWs-Instant-Boost-to-Level-Cap.html
Taken from this site, just offered as a thought piece, not as any kind of real evidence...
"...One thing Blizzard seems to be unaware of, or willfully ignoring, is that an MMORPG community is (or was, if you’re more cynical than I) built upon journeys. These journeys that we take together, separately, with one other player, or with an entire guild. If we all skipped to cap in an instant, the game wouldn’t be the same. There wouldn’t be a foundation. Might as well be playing a lobby game like a MOBA at that point."