If you pay without spending money all you get is a chance to get the items through crafting.
If I pay with my credit card I am guaranteed to get the gear.
If they never ever release more gear maybe you will win the RNG and end up as geared.
But it's absolute that when I pay, I get the gear.
And anyone who thinks their is no advantage is choosing to be ignorant.
Where can you buy gear with credit card ?
He never said you buy gear with credit card. He said you're guaranteed to get the gear. By that, he means you buy the materials from the cash shop (via lots of RNG boxes) and then just keep clicking the craft button until you finally get the gear you want.
Gets expensive fast of course, but quite a few people have done it anyways regardless of the thousands of dollars it costs.
I am sorry that's not what he said, even while paying you could still end up with nothing.
And to add to it, I could also get whatever I want with ingame gold, I just buy it from the crafter.
In-game gold without paying is limited by time and labor points.
In-game gold with paying RL money (or using RL money to dodge in-game gold requirements in some cases, like buying mats from the cash shop) is limited by the size of your real life wallet.
The above becomes an issue because some peoples' wallets are really really REALLY big. In essence, their in-game gold limit is faaaaar higher than the in-game gold limit of a non-paying player. (especially if the paying player ALSO plays the game and gets gold from their own game-time and labor points, which they're probably doing. Most people don't pay for a game they aren't going to play, after all)
How is it different than any other games ? Some people have always had more time to play than others, even paying you are still limited to how many labor potion you can drink. And everything you can ever achieve by paying real $ can be done by just playing the game. Someone could win the lottery and make some epic gear on his first try.
Whether or not someone gets ahead of someone else because they have more time to play is a separate issue . (it's normally called the "Casuals vs Hardcore" debate)
You need to segregate that issue out when determining Pay-to-Win. It is as you said, if you removed Pay to Win, Casuals vs Hardcore would stlil be an issue (if you are the type that believes people ever being stronger than others regardless of the cause is an issue). Likewise, if you removed Casuals vs Hardcore, Pay to Win would still be an issue. Both are issues, but they are two separate issues that should be solved on their own merits. The fact that sometimes a person might be able to use one in-game to try to beat another aspect in game (like, for example, being Hardcore in order to win in place of Pay) is a red herring because there are lots of people who are both Hardcore AND Pay. (in fact, most Pay people are also Hardcore. Lots of people wouldn't spend thousands of dollars on a game in the first place if they weren't also playing the game like crazy. Why spend so much on a game you don't play a lot?)
Therefore, "Some people have always had more time to play than others" needs to be separated to have any point of debate. It's a separate issue and if a game has problems because someone gets stronger than someone else via time, that issue needs to be looked at on its own merits. The one exception to this is if/when everyone hits the gear cap. In which case a non-paying Hardcore can be on the same level as a paying Hardcore by virtue of BOTH having the best gear. This, however, will never happen in Archeage (proof being that even in Korea after 2 years, no one has all the best gear).
As for "Someone could win the lottery and make some epic gear on his first try", again, that too is a separate issue that needs to be looked at on its own merits. In this case, that debate is known as "This game's itemization is too RNG-based." Once again, sometimes the Pay people can get lucky, and sometimes the Pay people can get unlucky. Likewise, sometimes the non-Pay people can get lucky, and sometimes the non-Pay people can get unlucky. These factors cancel each other out anyways for the most part (at least if you aren't factoring in the fact that many Pay items increase the Payer's success rate, in which case, like the whole "Hardcore vs Casuals" factor, this one actually goes in favor of the payer on average, too. But then.... there's a reason why this business model is so successful)
TL;DR: Casuals vs Hardcore, and RNG-itemization are two separate factors apart from whether or not a game is pay-to-win.
As an aside, any good whaling F2P business model will purposefully increase the Casual VS Hardcore issue and the RNG issue. IE, they will make the game purposefully WORSE because it encourages people to spend to make up for it. That's in R2game's business presentation, where they flat out admit that making it exponentially harder over time to improve your character and making things more random-based is bad for the life of the game but good for profits.
If you pay without spending money all you get is a chance to get the items through crafting.
If I pay with my credit card I am guaranteed to get the gear.
If they never ever release more gear maybe you will win the RNG and end up as geared.
But it's absolute that when I pay, I get the gear.
And anyone who thinks their is no advantage is choosing to be ignorant.
Where can you buy gear with credit card ?
He never said you buy gear with credit card. He said you're guaranteed to get the gear. By that, he means you buy the materials from the cash shop (via lots of RNG boxes) and then just keep clicking the craft button until you finally get the gear you want.
Gets expensive fast of course, but quite a few people have done it anyways regardless of the thousands of dollars it costs.
I am sorry that's not what he said, even while paying you could still end up with nothing.
And to add to it, I could also get whatever I want with ingame gold, I just buy it from the crafter.
In-game gold without paying is limited by time and labor points.
In-game gold with paying RL money (or using RL money to dodge in-game gold requirements in some cases, like buying mats from the cash shop) is limited by the size of your real life wallet.
The above becomes an issue because some peoples' wallets are really really REALLY big. In essence, their in-game gold limit is faaaaar higher than the in-game gold limit of a non-paying player. (especially if the paying player ALSO plays the game and gets gold from their own game-time and labor points, which they're probably doing. Most people don't pay for a game they aren't going to play, after all)
How is it different than any other games ? Some people have always had more time to play than others, even paying you are still limited to how many labor potion you can drink. And everything you can ever achieve by paying real $ can be done by just playing the game. Someone could win the lottery and make some epic gear on his first try.
Whether or not someone gets ahead of someone else because they have more time to play is a separate issue . (it's normally called the "Casuals vs Hardcore" debate)
You need to segregate that issue out when determining Pay-to-Win. It is as you said, if you removed Pay to Win, Casuals vs Hardcore would stlil be an issue (if you are the type that believes people ever being stronger than others regardless of the cause is an issue). Likewise, if you removed Casuals vs Hardcore, Pay to Win would still be an issue. Both are issues, but they are two separate issues that should be solved on their own merits. The fact that sometimes a person might be able to use one in-game to try to beat another aspect in game (like, for example, being Hardcore in order to win in place of Pay) is a red herring because there are lots of people who are both Hardcore AND Pay. (in fact, most Pay people are also Hardcore. Lots of people wouldn't spend thousands of dollars on a game in the first place if they weren't also playing the game like crazy. Why spend so much on a game you don't play a lot?)
Therefore, "Some people have always had more time to play than others" needs to be separated to have any point of debate. It's a separate issue and if a game has problems because someone gets stronger than someone else via time, that issue needs to be looked at on its own merits. The one exception to this is if/when everyone hits the gear cap. In which case a non-paying Hardcore can be on the same level as a paying Hardcore by virtue of BOTH having the best gear. This, however, will never happen in Archeage (proof being that even in Korea after 2 years, no one has all the best gear).
As for "Someone could win the lottery and make some epic gear on his first try", again, that too is a separate issue that needs to be looked at on its own merits. In this case, that debate is known as "This game's itemization is too RNG-based." Once again, sometimes the Pay people can get lucky, and sometimes the Pay people can get unlucky. Likewise, sometimes the non-Pay people can get lucky, and sometimes the non-Pay people can get unlucky. These factors cancel each other out anyways for the most part (at least if you aren't factoring in the fact that many Pay items increase the Payer's success rate, in which case, like the whole "Hardcore vs Casuals" factor, this one actually goes in favor of the payer on average, too. But then.... there's a reason why this business model is so successful)
TL;DR: Casuals vs Hardcore, and RNG-itemization are two separate factors apart from whether or not a game is pay-to-win.
So there is actually no debate then. Remove luck and time, what is left ?
Paying real money doesn't guarantee anything, if you go thru Trion. Sure if you pay real cash on a shady black market you can buy your way to the best gear, but that is not Trion's doing.
Paying real money is simply a shortcut, gives you more chances to obtain something.
If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?
If you pay without spending money all you get is a chance to get the items through crafting.
If I pay with my credit card I am guaranteed to get the gear.
If they never ever release more gear maybe you will win the RNG and end up as geared.
But it's absolute that when I pay, I get the gear.
And anyone who thinks their is no advantage is choosing to be ignorant.
Where can you buy gear with credit card ?
He never said you buy gear with credit card. He said you're guaranteed to get the gear. By that, he means you buy the materials from the cash shop (via lots of RNG boxes) and then just keep clicking the craft button until you finally get the gear you want.
Gets expensive fast of course, but quite a few people have done it anyways regardless of the thousands of dollars it costs.
I am sorry that's not what he said, even while paying you could still end up with nothing.
And to add to it, I could also get whatever I want with ingame gold, I just buy it from the crafter.
In-game gold without paying is limited by time and labor points.
In-game gold with paying RL money (or using RL money to dodge in-game gold requirements in some cases, like buying mats from the cash shop) is limited by the size of your real life wallet.
The above becomes an issue because some peoples' wallets are really really REALLY big. In essence, their in-game gold limit is faaaaar higher than the in-game gold limit of a non-paying player. (especially if the paying player ALSO plays the game and gets gold from their own game-time and labor points, which they're probably doing. Most people don't pay for a game they aren't going to play, after all)
How is it different than any other games ? Some people have always had more time to play than others, even paying you are still limited to how many labor potion you can drink. And everything you can ever achieve by paying real $ can be done by just playing the game. Someone could win the lottery and make some epic gear on his first try.
Whether or not someone gets ahead of someone else because they have more time to play is a separate issue . (it's normally called the "Casuals vs Hardcore" debate)
You need to segregate that issue out when determining Pay-to-Win. It is as you said, if you removed Pay to Win, Casuals vs Hardcore would stlil be an issue (if you are the type that believes people ever being stronger than others regardless of the cause is an issue). Likewise, if you removed Casuals vs Hardcore, Pay to Win would still be an issue. Both are issues, but they are two separate issues that should be solved on their own merits. The fact that sometimes a person might be able to use one in-game to try to beat another aspect in game (like, for example, being Hardcore in order to win in place of Pay) is a red herring because there are lots of people who are both Hardcore AND Pay. (in fact, most Pay people are also Hardcore. Lots of people wouldn't spend thousands of dollars on a game in the first place if they weren't also playing the game like crazy. Why spend so much on a game you don't play a lot?)
Therefore, "Some people have always had more time to play than others" needs to be separated to have any point of debate. It's a separate issue and if a game has problems because someone gets stronger than someone else via time, that issue needs to be looked at on its own merits. The one exception to this is if/when everyone hits the gear cap. In which case a non-paying Hardcore can be on the same level as a paying Hardcore by virtue of BOTH having the best gear. This, however, will never happen in Archeage (proof being that even in Korea after 2 years, no one has all the best gear).
As for "Someone could win the lottery and make some epic gear on his first try", again, that too is a separate issue that needs to be looked at on its own merits. In this case, that debate is known as "This game's itemization is too RNG-based." Once again, sometimes the Pay people can get lucky, and sometimes the Pay people can get unlucky. Likewise, sometimes the non-Pay people can get lucky, and sometimes the non-Pay people can get unlucky. These factors cancel each other out anyways for the most part (at least if you aren't factoring in the fact that many Pay items increase the Payer's success rate, in which case, like the whole "Hardcore vs Casuals" factor, this one actually goes in favor of the payer on average, too. But then.... there's a reason why this business model is so successful)
TL;DR: Casuals vs Hardcore, and RNG-itemization are two separate factors apart from whether or not a game is pay-to-win.
So there is actually no debate then. Remove luck and time, what is left ?
Paying real money doesn't guarantee anything, if you go thru Trion. Sure if you pay real cash on a shady black market you can buy your way to the best gear, but that is not Trion's doing.
Paying real money is simply a shortcut, gives you more chances to obtain something.
If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?
"Remove luck and time. What is left?"
Money, obviously. That's the point.
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
But it the end the result is the same, I didn't put real $ in the game, but I still have that epic weapon in my hand. If everyone have a chance to get the same gear, it is not a p2w case. Yes someone used one of the shortcut to get the money from me. But in this game, money, time and luck are essantially as valuable and each one is a shortcut to getting ahead.
You can easily use ingame money to get the maximum Labor pot a day.
There is nothing restricted behind a paywall. That is I think the line which separate P2W and none P2W
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
But it the end the result is the same, I didn't put real $ in the game, but I still have that epic weapon in my hand.
If that were actually the case, the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.
So, do you, or ANY non-paying (lots. Again, I'll ignore small amounts like patron fees. Company's gotta make SOME money) player, actually have that epic in your hand?
Saying "a nonpaying player can get it for 40k gold" is nice and all, but meaningless if no non-paying player actually got the 40k gold and then got the weapon.
Now, I'll tell you this. A MAJOR POINT OF THE WHALE BUSINESS MODEL is to ensure that does NOT happen (non-paying players ACTUALLY getting the best gear, even if they theretically can). It's much easier and profitable to take advantage of whales' spending habits when non-whales never get the best gear despite theretically being able to. And so far, going by how only one person in Korea even has a piece of that top weaponry, they're succeeding in that regards.
In AA, the non-whale players can theretically get the best gear too. But in practice, they don't. (again, proof is in the Korean version). That's how you make money!
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
But it the end the result is the same, I didn't put real $ in the game, but I still have that epic weapon in my hand.
If that were actually the case, the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.
So, do you, or ANY non-paying (lots. Again, I'll ignore small amounts like patron fees. Company's gotta make SOME money) player, actually have that epic in your hand?
Saying "a nonpaying player can get it for 40k gold" is nice and all, but meaningless if no non-paying player actually got the 40k gold and then got the weapon.
Now, I'll tell you this. A MAJOR POINT OF THE WHALE BUSINESS MODEL is to ensure that does NOT happen (non-paying players ACTUALLY getting the best gear, even if they theretically can). It's much easier and profitable to take advantage of whales' spending habits when non-whales never get the best gear despite theretically being able to. And so far, going by how only one person in Korea even has a piece of that top weaponry, they're succeeding in that regards.
In AA, the non-whale players can theretically get the best gear too. But in practice, they don't. (again, proof is in the Korean version). That's how you make money!
No I don't have an epic weapon, I think there is only 1 on my server at this time. I started playing the game 1 month after release so I had to fight an uphill battle. Buying land is expensive without land to begin with. But I now have 60k fishing and I can make 1k a day. In a week or 2 I could buy an epic weapon if I choose to, but I don't think it is worth it, would probably stick with divine for now.
There will never be anyone in full mythic gear because there will probably never be a full set ever made hehe.
The argument to say AA is not pay to win because everything can be bought off the auction house is rubbish. Just because stuff on the market place can be sold on the auction house, doesn't derail the fact, a whale can acquire certain items faster than someone who simply farms gold in-game.
When you add real money transactions into a game's economy, you automatically create a P2W scenario. It doesn't matter how the hell you try to spin it, it is still P2W.
UNLESS
The items in the cash shop provide no clear advantage in stats or RNG to a player. Unfortunately in AA's case, there are plenty of advantages being sold in the market place.
SUMMARY
AA is a P2W game.
You will have to accept the fact that people have different definition of P2W. Your opinion is your own, to me AA is not P2W.
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
But it the end the result is the same, I didn't put real $ in the game, but I still have that epic weapon in my hand.
If that were actually the case, the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.
So, do you, or ANY non-paying (lots. Again, I'll ignore small amounts like patron fees. Company's gotta make SOME money) player, actually have that epic in your hand?
Saying "a nonpaying player can get it for 40k gold" is nice and all, but meaningless if no non-paying player actually got the 40k gold and then got the weapon.
Now, I'll tell you this. A MAJOR POINT OF THE WHALE BUSINESS MODEL is to ensure that does NOT happen (non-paying players ACTUALLY getting the best gear, even if they theretically can). It's much easier and profitable to take advantage of whales' spending habits when non-whales never get the best gear despite theretically being able to. And so far, going by how only one person in Korea even has a piece of that top weaponry, they're succeeding in that regards.
In AA, the non-whale players can theretically get the best gear too. But in practice, they don't. (again, proof is in the Korean version). That's how you make money!
No I don't have an epic weapon, I think there is only 1 on my server at this time. I started playing the game 1 month after release so I had to fight an uphill battle. Buying land is expensive without land to begin with. But I now have 60k fishing and I can make 1k a day. In a week or 2 I could buy an epic weapon if I choose to, but I don't think it is worth it, would probably stick with divine for now.
There will never be anyone in full mythic gear because there will probably never be a full set ever made hehe.
1k a day would be 40 days to get an epic weapon at 40k, not a week or two ^^;
(also, are they actually sold for 40k gold? That's rather unlikely if there's only one on your server. Once again the point being it's theretically possible to buy from someone else or make it yourself without paying a lot of RL $$$ somewhere but in practice.... nope.)
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
But it the end the result is the same, I didn't put real $ in the game, but I still have that epic weapon in my hand.
If that were actually the case, the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.
So, do you, or ANY non-paying (lots. Again, I'll ignore small amounts like patron fees. Company's gotta make SOME money) player, actually have that epic in your hand?
Saying "a nonpaying player can get it for 40k gold" is nice and all, but meaningless if no non-paying player actually got the 40k gold and then got the weapon.
Now, I'll tell you this. A MAJOR POINT OF THE WHALE BUSINESS MODEL is to ensure that does NOT happen (non-paying players ACTUALLY getting the best gear, even if they theretically can). It's much easier and profitable to take advantage of whales' spending habits when non-whales never get the best gear despite theretically being able to. And so far, going by how only one person in Korea even has a piece of that top weaponry, they're succeeding in that regards.
In AA, the non-whale players can theretically get the best gear too. But in practice, they don't. (again, proof is in the Korean version). That's how you make money!
No I don't have an epic weapon, I think there is only 1 on my server at this time. I started playing the game 1 month after release so I had to fight an uphill battle. Buying land is expensive without land to begin with. But I now have 60k fishing and I can make 1k a day. In a week or 2 I could buy an epic weapon if I choose to, but I don't think it is worth it, would probably stick with divine for now.
There will never be anyone in full mythic gear because there will probably never be a full set ever made hehe.
1k a day would be 40 days to get an epic weapon at 40k, not a week or two ^^;
(also, are they actually sold for 40k gold? That's rather unlikely if there's only one on your server. Once again the point being it's theretically possible to buy from someone else or make it yourself without paying a lot of RL $$$ somewhere but in practice.... nope.)
I already have money, and no there aren't any sold on my server right now. I took that 40k from that picture posted earlier.
If I can make that money already after a month imagine people that been playing more and for longer.
In the end it always comes down to the same, yes people that play more are luckier and drop more money on the game will most likely be better geared. But it always as been like that.
There are games however that require you to drop money to be competitive, I don't put AA in that category because the .00001% playerbase that will drop couple 10k on the game will probably never cross my path in the game. The rest that spend some money will have relatively the same gear as me.
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
But it the end the result is the same, I didn't put real $ in the game, but I still have that epic weapon in my hand.
If that were actually the case, the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.
So, do you, or ANY non-paying (lots. Again, I'll ignore small amounts like patron fees. Company's gotta make SOME money) player, actually have that epic in your hand?
Saying "a nonpaying player can get it for 40k gold" is nice and all, but meaningless if no non-paying player actually got the 40k gold and then got the weapon.
Now, I'll tell you this. A MAJOR POINT OF THE WHALE BUSINESS MODEL is to ensure that does NOT happen (non-paying players ACTUALLY getting the best gear, even if they theretically can). It's much easier and profitable to take advantage of whales' spending habits when non-whales never get the best gear despite theretically being able to. And so far, going by how only one person in Korea even has a piece of that top weaponry, they're succeeding in that regards.
In AA, the non-whale players can theretically get the best gear too. But in practice, they don't. (again, proof is in the Korean version). That's how you make money!
No I don't have an epic weapon, I think there is only 1 on my server at this time. I started playing the game 1 month after release so I had to fight an uphill battle. Buying land is expensive without land to begin with. But I now have 60k fishing and I can make 1k a day. In a week or 2 I could buy an epic weapon if I choose to, but I don't think it is worth it, would probably stick with divine for now.
There will never be anyone in full mythic gear because there will probably never be a full set ever made hehe.
1k a day would be 40 days to get an epic weapon at 40k, not a week or two ^^;
(also, are they actually sold for 40k gold? That's rather unlikely if there's only one on your server. Once again the point being it's theretically possible to buy from someone else or make it yourself without paying a lot of RL $$$ somewhere but in practice.... nope.)
I already have money, and no there aren't any sold on my server right now. I took that 40k from that picture posted earlier.
If I can make that money already after a month imagine people that been playing more and for longer.
In the end it always comes down to the same, yes people that play more are luckier and drop more money on the game will most likely be better geared. But it always as been like that.
There are games however that require you to drop money to be competitive, I don't put AA in that category because the .00001% playerbase that will drop couple 10k on the game will probably never cross my path in the game. The rest that spend some money will have relatively the same gear as me.
AA isn't on the level of various mobile or F2P games where the game will force you to cross their paths in 80% of the activities, directly or indirectly. I'd be marginally surprised if you don't end up crossing the paths of those $10,000+ guys here and there regardless, though, unless you stick entirely to safe zones. From most reports/posts I've seen, they're very active when it comes to camping the docks and pirating and everything else, and if you intend to siege castles at all, you're pretty much guaranteed to have to compete with some of them.
Course, maybe you don't intend to siege castles at all and don't care about arena rankings. But again, you'll still probably run into them at least a few times when running trade packs.
As in the "month" part of the discussion, again, in that amount of time, that weapon might not even be that good anymore relative to the other weapons that big-spending players (pirates, castle fighters, etc) have. Especially with the level 55 patch on the horizon...
You can get everything in this game with ingame gold and spend no real money, or you can spend money and progress faster than other people. You can own and obscene amount of land and afford to run AH prices with your crafted gear that you can make faster than other people.
p2w - pay to progress - pay to be cool
whatever you want to call it, spending real money gets you ahead in this game, period.
There is nothing restricted behind a paywall. That is I think the line which separate P2W and none P2W
All these items that are not restricted behind a paywall, how do they end up ingame in the first place?
But those item are not bound to the player, which would make it P2W. Those are on the AH accessible by anyone.
IF they choose to sell them on the AH, in which case effectively they're buying ingame gold with $
Which doesn't make a game p2w by itself, simply quicken it, same as time and luck also affect your progression.
Time is limited (considering this is an openly competitive PvP game where they release new better weapons over time) and luck is set so that the vast majority of players won't get it (look at those success rates). Enough real life money bypasses both of those.
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
But it the end the result is the same, I didn't put real $ in the game, but I still have that epic weapon in my hand.
If that were actually the case, the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.
So, do you, or ANY non-paying (lots. Again, I'll ignore small amounts like patron fees. Company's gotta make SOME money) player, actually have that epic in your hand?
Saying "a nonpaying player can get it for 40k gold" is nice and all, but meaningless if no non-paying player actually got the 40k gold and then got the weapon.
Now, I'll tell you this. A MAJOR POINT OF THE WHALE BUSINESS MODEL is to ensure that does NOT happen (non-paying players ACTUALLY getting the best gear, even if they theretically can). It's much easier and profitable to take advantage of whales' spending habits when non-whales never get the best gear despite theretically being able to. And so far, going by how only one person in Korea even has a piece of that top weaponry, they're succeeding in that regards.
In AA, the non-whale players can theretically get the best gear too. But in practice, they don't. (again, proof is in the Korean version). That's how you make money!
No I don't have an epic weapon, I think there is only 1 on my server at this time. I started playing the game 1 month after release so I had to fight an uphill battle. Buying land is expensive without land to begin with. But I now have 60k fishing and I can make 1k a day. In a week or 2 I could buy an epic weapon if I choose to, but I don't think it is worth it, would probably stick with divine for now.
There will never be anyone in full mythic gear because there will probably never be a full set ever made hehe.
1k a day would be 40 days to get an epic weapon at 40k, not a week or two ^^;
(also, are they actually sold for 40k gold? That's rather unlikely if there's only one on your server. Once again the point being it's theretically possible to buy from someone else or make it yourself without paying a lot of RL $$$ somewhere but in practice.... nope.)
I already have money, and no there aren't any sold on my server right now. I took that 40k from that picture posted earlier.
If I can make that money already after a month imagine people that been playing more and for longer.
In the end it always comes down to the same, yes people that play more are luckier and drop more money on the game will most likely be better geared. But it always as been like that.
There are games however that require you to drop money to be competitive, I don't put AA in that category because the .00001% playerbase that will drop couple 10k on the game will probably never cross my path in the game. The rest that spend some money will have relatively the same gear as me.
AA isn't on the level of various mobile or F2P games where the game will force you to cross their paths in 80% of the activities, directly or indirectly. I'd be marginally surprised if you don't end up crossing the paths of those $10,000+ guys here and there regardless, though, unless you stick entirely to safe zones. From most reports/posts I've seen, they're very active when it comes to camping the docks and pirating and everything else, and if you intend to siege castles at all, you're pretty much guaranteed to have to compete with some of them.
Course, maybe you don't intend to siege castles at all and don't care about arena rankings. But again, you'll still probably run into them at least a few times when running trade packs.
As in the "month" part of the discussion, again, in that amount of time, that weapon might not even be that good anymore relative to the other weapons that big-spending players (pirates, castle fighters, etc) have. Especially with the level 55 patch on the horizon...
I actually am in a guild that have a castle, but right now the best geared person you can expect is full heroic GHA gear with tier 3 hasla weapon. I don't think there is anyone that have anything much better than that at this point.
There is nothing restricted behind a paywall. That is I think the line which separate P2W and none P2W
All these items that are not restricted behind a paywall, how do they end up ingame in the first place?
But those item are not bound to the player, which would make it P2W. Those are on the AH accessible by anyone.
IF they choose to sell them on the AH, in which case effectively they're buying ingame gold with $
Which doesn't make a game p2w by itself, simply quicken it, same as time and luck also affect your progression.
Time is limited (considering this is an openly competitive PvP game where they release new better weapons over time) and luck is set so that the vast majority of players won't get it (look at those success rates). Enough real life money bypasses both of those.
Well since there is still no one in full mythic 2 years after release, it tends to prove that there will never be enough money to bypass it .
There is nothing restricted behind a paywall. That is I think the line which separate P2W and none P2W
All these items that are not restricted behind a paywall, how do they end up ingame in the first place?
But those item are not bound to the player, which would make it P2W. Those are on the AH accessible by anyone.
IF they choose to sell them on the AH, in which case effectively they're buying ingame gold with $
Which doesn't make a game p2w by itself, simply quicken it, same as time and luck also affect your progression.
Time is limited (considering this is an openly competitive PvP game where they release new better weapons over time) and luck is set so that the vast majority of players won't get it (look at those success rates). Enough real life money bypasses both of those.
Well since there is still no one in full mythic 2 years after release, it tends to prove that there will never be enough money to bypass it .
It does prove that. You don't need mythic to win, though. You just need better gear than everyone else (or, since we're compariing payers to non-payers, better gear than what all the non-payers have).
Do the whales have better gear than what ALL the non-whales have? Probably yes, unless anyone can point to a non-whale that's also in gear comparable to the whales in the game.
Again, theretically, they can get that gear. In practice, nope, but whales sure do. Maybe not Mythic (which no one, whales or not, has. Besides one whale having one piece) but the stuff below it is within the whales' hands while not within the non-whales'.
P2W does not always mean "paying for something you can get via no other way but paying real money." Sometimes it just means, "paying to get a leg up on others before they have an opportunity to get the same thing via in-game mechanics." Both are pay-to-win scenarios.
... when you can buy ANYTHING in game with game gold including patron, gems and APEX?
ANYTHING in the cash shop you can buy it with in game gold so I cant understand how this is a pay to win....
Its just the same people that cried P2W for SWTOR's cash shop. . .
. . .they just migrated. . .
Well, if true, that's kinda logical. People who don't like P2W games tend to (eventually, at least) leave those games if those games become their definition of P2W.
it isn't popular to like ducks so im going to do everything I can to convince myself and everyone else that this duck is actually a dog for some reason.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
therefore a heavy casher wins in PvP sorry but its true
I have full gha set and play as ranger.. So do you except you spend cash got gold and regraded your set to full red..
Guess what happens when we meet in pvp we both hit same skills I die you live, you just beat me with your wallet, not to mention with your wallet you can get the gold to make a high eld delph bow there so much RnG in the crafting but guess what if you got 100k gold you can beat RnG with number of times tried.
Its a good game with fun to be had but stop pretending it isnt pay2win if you are willing to cash hard it is.
Comments
Whether or not someone gets ahead of someone else because they have more time to play is a separate issue . (it's normally called the "Casuals vs Hardcore" debate)
You need to segregate that issue out when determining Pay-to-Win. It is as you said, if you removed Pay to Win, Casuals vs Hardcore would stlil be an issue (if you are the type that believes people ever being stronger than others regardless of the cause is an issue). Likewise, if you removed Casuals vs Hardcore, Pay to Win would still be an issue. Both are issues, but they are two separate issues that should be solved on their own merits. The fact that sometimes a person might be able to use one in-game to try to beat another aspect in game (like, for example, being Hardcore in order to win in place of Pay) is a red herring because there are lots of people who are both Hardcore AND Pay. (in fact, most Pay people are also Hardcore. Lots of people wouldn't spend thousands of dollars on a game in the first place if they weren't also playing the game like crazy. Why spend so much on a game you don't play a lot?)
Therefore, "Some people have always had more time to play than others" needs to be separated to have any point of debate. It's a separate issue and if a game has problems because someone gets stronger than someone else via time, that issue needs to be looked at on its own merits. The one exception to this is if/when everyone hits the gear cap. In which case a non-paying Hardcore can be on the same level as a paying Hardcore by virtue of BOTH having the best gear. This, however, will never happen in Archeage (proof being that even in Korea after 2 years, no one has all the best gear).
As for "Someone could win the lottery and make some epic gear on his first try", again, that too is a separate issue that needs to be looked at on its own merits. In this case, that debate is known as "This game's itemization is too RNG-based." Once again, sometimes the Pay people can get lucky, and sometimes the Pay people can get unlucky. Likewise, sometimes the non-Pay people can get lucky, and sometimes the non-Pay people can get unlucky. These factors cancel each other out anyways for the most part (at least if you aren't factoring in the fact that many Pay items increase the Payer's success rate, in which case, like the whole "Hardcore vs Casuals" factor, this one actually goes in favor of the payer on average, too. But then.... there's a reason why this business model is so successful)
TL;DR: Casuals vs Hardcore, and RNG-itemization are two separate factors apart from whether or not a game is pay-to-win.
As an aside, any good whaling F2P business model will purposefully increase the Casual VS Hardcore issue and the RNG issue. IE, they will make the game purposefully WORSE because it encourages people to spend to make up for it. That's in R2game's business presentation, where they flat out admit that making it exponentially harder over time to improve your character and making things more random-based is bad for the life of the game but good for profits.
So there is actually no debate then. Remove luck and time, what is left ?
Paying real money doesn't guarantee anything, if you go thru Trion. Sure if you pay real cash on a shady black market you can buy your way to the best gear, but that is not Trion's doing.
Paying real money is simply a shortcut, gives you more chances to obtain something.
If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?
"Remove luck and time. What is left?"
Money, obviously. That's the point.
"If the person that craft this epic sell it to me on the AH for 40k gold, am I paying to win ?"
As I've stated before (possibly in another thread. Honestly a lot of these threads are kinda similar to each other), in that case you're not paying to win. Assuming he paid RL money for mats to craft that weapon, he's paying to get your 40k gold which he'll presumably use to improve his own character somewhere, so he's the one paying to win. Unless he's just quitting and plans on selling the gold to someone else for RL money instead of improving his own gear, in which case that someone else would be the one paying to win, obviously.
And if no one paid any RL money anywhere? Then no one's paying to win. But only for this one case (not for the game as a whole). That said, I'd be rather surprised if the crafter didn't pay (a lot. We'll ignore small amounts) somewhere. The average time needed to get the materials needed to make a weapon of that caliber even for a guild without paying generally exceed the current age of the game (and, several months from now when a non-paying guild might finally make it, itt won't be worth 40k gold anymore or even that good compared to the new gear out there)
But it the end the result is the same, I didn't put real $ in the game, but I still have that epic weapon in my hand. If everyone have a chance to get the same gear, it is not a p2w case. Yes someone used one of the shortcut to get the money from me. But in this game, money, time and luck are essantially as valuable and each one is a shortcut to getting ahead.
You can easily use ingame money to get the maximum Labor pot a day.
There is nothing restricted behind a paywall. That is I think the line which separate P2W and none P2W
If that were actually the case, the game wouldn't be pay-to-win.
So, do you, or ANY non-paying (lots. Again, I'll ignore small amounts like patron fees. Company's gotta make SOME money) player, actually have that epic in your hand?
Saying "a nonpaying player can get it for 40k gold" is nice and all, but meaningless if no non-paying player actually got the 40k gold and then got the weapon.
Now, I'll tell you this. A MAJOR POINT OF THE WHALE BUSINESS MODEL is to ensure that does NOT happen (non-paying players ACTUALLY getting the best gear, even if they theretically can). It's much easier and profitable to take advantage of whales' spending habits when non-whales never get the best gear despite theretically being able to. And so far, going by how only one person in Korea even has a piece of that top weaponry, they're succeeding in that regards.
In AA, the non-whale players can theretically get the best gear too. But in practice, they don't. (again, proof is in the Korean version). That's how you make money!
No I don't have an epic weapon, I think there is only 1 on my server at this time. I started playing the game 1 month after release so I had to fight an uphill battle. Buying land is expensive without land to begin with. But I now have 60k fishing and I can make 1k a day. In a week or 2 I could buy an epic weapon if I choose to, but I don't think it is worth it, would probably stick with divine for now.
There will never be anyone in full mythic gear because there will probably never be a full set ever made hehe.
You will have to accept the fact that people have different definition of P2W. Your opinion is your own, to me AA is not P2W.
1k a day would be 40 days to get an epic weapon at 40k, not a week or two ^^;
(also, are they actually sold for 40k gold? That's rather unlikely if there's only one on your server. Once again the point being it's theretically possible to buy from someone else or make it yourself without paying a lot of RL $$$ somewhere but in practice.... nope.)
I already have money, and no there aren't any sold on my server right now. I took that 40k from that picture posted earlier.
If I can make that money already after a month imagine people that been playing more and for longer.
In the end it always comes down to the same, yes people that play more are luckier and drop more money on the game will most likely be better geared. But it always as been like that.
There are games however that require you to drop money to be competitive, I don't put AA in that category because the .00001% playerbase that will drop couple 10k on the game will probably never cross my path in the game. The rest that spend some money will have relatively the same gear as me.
But those item are not bound to the player, which would make it P2W. Those are on the AH accessible by anyone.
IF they choose to sell them on the AH, in which case effectively they're buying ingame gold with $
AA isn't on the level of various mobile or F2P games where the game will force you to cross their paths in 80% of the activities, directly or indirectly. I'd be marginally surprised if you don't end up crossing the paths of those $10,000+ guys here and there regardless, though, unless you stick entirely to safe zones. From most reports/posts I've seen, they're very active when it comes to camping the docks and pirating and everything else, and if you intend to siege castles at all, you're pretty much guaranteed to have to compete with some of them.
Course, maybe you don't intend to siege castles at all and don't care about arena rankings. But again, you'll still probably run into them at least a few times when running trade packs.
As in the "month" part of the discussion, again, in that amount of time, that weapon might not even be that good anymore relative to the other weapons that big-spending players (pirates, castle fighters, etc) have. Especially with the level 55 patch on the horizon...
You can get everything in this game with ingame gold and spend no real money, or you can spend money and progress faster than other people. You can own and obscene amount of land and afford to run AH prices with your crafted gear that you can make faster than other people.
p2w - pay to progress - pay to be cool
whatever you want to call it, spending real money gets you ahead in this game, period.
Which doesn't make a game p2w by itself, simply quicken it, same as time and luck also affect your progression.
Time is limited (considering this is an openly competitive PvP game where they release new better weapons over time) and luck is set so that the vast majority of players won't get it (look at those success rates). Enough real life money bypasses both of those.
I actually am in a guild that have a castle, but right now the best geared person you can expect is full heroic GHA gear with tier 3 hasla weapon. I don't think there is anyone that have anything much better than that at this point.
There is no one running around in full epic gear.
So we disagree on where the line goes. AA for me has crossed it
Well since there is still no one in full mythic 2 years after release, it tends to prove that there will never be enough money to bypass it .
It does prove that. You don't need mythic to win, though. You just need better gear than everyone else (or, since we're compariing payers to non-payers, better gear than what all the non-payers have).
Do the whales have better gear than what ALL the non-whales have? Probably yes, unless anyone can point to a non-whale that's also in gear comparable to the whales in the game.
Again, theretically, they can get that gear. In practice, nope, but whales sure do. Maybe not Mythic (which no one, whales or not, has. Besides one whale having one piece) but the stuff below it is within the whales' hands while not within the non-whales'.
Its just the same people that cried P2W for SWTOR's cash shop. . .
. . .they just migrated. . .
Well, if true, that's kinda logical. People who don't like P2W games tend to (eventually, at least) leave those games if those games become their definition of P2W.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Gold = Win
Cash = gold
therefore a heavy casher wins in PvP sorry but its true
I have full gha set and play as ranger.. So do you except you spend cash got gold and regraded your set to full red..
Guess what happens when we meet in pvp we both hit same skills I die you live, you just beat me with your wallet, not to mention with your wallet you can get the gold to make a high eld delph bow there so much RnG in the crafting but guess what if you got 100k gold you can beat RnG with number of times tried.
Its a good game with fun to be had but stop pretending it isnt pay2win if you are willing to cash hard it is.