There Is another factor that "steers" developers away from harsh death penalties. It is much harder to design and code "dungeons" if the death penalty is harsh.
Players - rightly - expect to have a chance. In pen and paper games the DM would tweak things; coding AI to do the same .... much harder.
So missions are essentially "dumb" with the decision on whether it is to hard or not being left to the players.
If the death penalty is "lower" they will be more likely to take a risk; if it is "harsh" they will play safe and make sure they are overpowered.
Bottom line: a harsh death penalty would probably dumb down the game!
Very succinctly said. It's a trade off. Developers have to choose where to make things hard. Success can be easier, but the punishment for failure is harder, or success can be harder, but the punishment for failure is easier. Nice.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If we say EQ was too harsh and modern games were too soft I'd agree with that.
To me the part of the EQ system that was harsh was the whole CR for gear. The xp was harsh, but not crippling. Losing all your gear was devastating and CR could be horrible.
I'd like to see some motivation to NOT die. To me it would make it a better game. I'd be ok with exactly EQ's system, but I'd also be ok with something that makes sure that you don't lose your gear.
If we say EQ was too harsh and modern games were too soft I'd agree with that.
To me the part of the EQ system that was harsh was the whole CR for gear. The xp was harsh, but not crippling. Losing all your gear was devastating and CR could be horrible.
I'd like to see some motivation to NOT die. To me it would make it a better game. I'd be ok with exactly EQ's system, but I'd also be ok with something that makes sure that you don't lose your gear.
Vanguard had the answer for that. The corpse shrines that was placed around the world. It gave you a choice, do you want to go back and get your corpse yourself for a minor penalty hit on xp gained or do you want your corpse right away at the shrine with all your gear for a major penalty hit from xp gained.
I like a good stiff death penalty. It gives the game an edge, it changes the way you play and makes it a little more realistic. But, losing gear or levels is too harsh. A death penalty that becomes more severe as you progress in the game is a bad thing; at some point, the risk won't be worth the reward and you will stop playing.
It'd be funny if EQN was like an old-time arcade game and charged you 25 station cash (or whatever $0.25 works out to) to get back up when knocked out. Now that would be annoying -- and yet you wouldn't lose time, no graveyard run, no XP penalty, etc. For those that can't pay, I guess their respawn would take 12 hours.
As someone who played wow for a long time, I can let you know that I quit because it got dumbed down tot he point that there were no rewards for playing well or consequences for playing badly.
When they introduced a full inspect so people could copy your builds, it ruined any competitiveness in PvP particularly but also PvE.
That and easy respecs made the game so dumbed down that you no longer had to work at the game, you could just copy other peoples builds cuz you could inspect them rather than working things out yourself and you could respect at any time.
There were numerous other dumbed down things that made the game basically a game for 6 year olds.
For those of us who like to play adult games where intellect and skill matter, we want consequences and yes that means harsh death penalties as well.
There are a million mmo rpgs for 9 year olds out there, if youa re that despereate to play a casual game where skill and intellect don't matter, just go play wow or wild star or the numerous clones already out there but the tag line for everquest next is 'A life of consequence' so like the everquests before it should be an adult game where there are consequences for smart playing like rewards and consequences for bad playing like bad builds which you cant just rectify by not understanding the game and inspecting someone who does or harsh death penalties.
There is a market for both the 9 year old casual player who wants a generic game with no consequences and the adult player who wants to play a competitive gave which must thus have consequences.
If you are the former, go play wow, guildwars or wildstar but if you want an adult based mmo then hit up everquest next but as a non competitive, casual player don't try to spoil the game for those who go to everquest next specifically for a game based on skill, intellect and consequences.
By the way to the guy who mentioned Diablo3, Ive played that as well. That game is as casual as wow and I say that as someone who loved diablo ever since diablo 1.
The inspect skill also ruins any competitive element of diablo 3 hence its an uncompetitive game. Its not like in Diablo 2 where you had to do corpse runs to pick up your loot from where you died as a harsh death penalty and couldn't respec. It has improvements over d2 sure but a lot of new declines as well such as the includion of a full build and gear inspect skill when inspect should be optional so that you don't have to let players steal your builds or work.
Anyway back on topic, as eq next is billed as a life of consequence and an adult orientated rpg (ie one where intellect/skill matter because consequences are not easily reversible), I support harsh death penalties.
All the adult players who are sick of games where you might as well let a bot just play for you since there will be no rewards or punishments for your actions like in wow, ie a large part of the untapped market have been looking for a mmorpg like that for a long time ever since wow got dumbed down in wotlk and diablo in d3. As a long standing blizzard supporter, im now jumping ship for this reason. Heck, I didn't even buy my diablo 3 because of this reason and don't plan on buying more blizzard games.
As someone who played wow for a long time, I can let you know that I quit because it got dumbed down tot he point that there were no rewards for playing well or consequences for playing badly.
When they introduced a full inspect so people could copy your builds, it ruined any competitiveness in PvP particularly but also PvE.
That and easy respecs made the game so dumbed down that you no longer had to work at the game, you could just copy other peoples builds cuz you could inspect them rather than working things out yourself and you could respect at any time.
There were numerous other dumbed down things that made the game basically a game for 6 year olds.
For those of us who like to play adult games where intellect and skill matter, we want consequences and yes that means harsh death penalties as well.
There are a million mmo rpgs for 9 year olds out there, if youa re that despereate to play a casual game where skill and intellect don't matter, just go play wow or wild star or the numerous clones already out there but the tag line for everquest next is 'A life of consequence' so like the everquests before it should be an adult game where there are consequences for smart playing like rewards and consequences for bad playing like bad builds which you cant just rectify by not understanding the game and inspecting someone who does or harsh death penalties.
There is a market for both the 9 year old casual player who wants a generic game with no consequences and the adult player who wants to play a competitive gave which must thus have consequences.
If you are the former, go play wow, guildwars or wildstar but if you want an adult based mmo then hit up everquest next but as a non competitive, casual player don't try to spoil the game for those who go to everquest next specifically for a game based on skill, intellect and consequences.
By the way to the guy who mentioned Diablo3, Ive played that as well. That game is as casual as wow and I say that as someone who loved diablo ever since diablo 1.
The inspect skill also ruins any competitive element of diablo 3 hence its an uncompetitive game. Its not like in Diablo 2 where you had to do corpse runs to pick up your loot from where you died as a harsh death penalty and couldn't respec. It has improvements over d2 sure but a lot of new declines as well such as the includion of a full build and gear inspect skill when inspect should be optional so that you don't have to let players steal your builds or work.
Anyway back on topic, as eq next is billed as a life of consequence and an adult orientated rpg (ie one where intellect/skill matter because consequences are not easily reversible), I support harsh death penalties.
All the adult players who are sick of games where you might as well let a bot just play for you since there will be no rewards or punishments for your actions like in wow, ie a large part of the untapped market have been looking for a mmorpg like that for a long time ever since wow got dumbed down in wotlk and diablo in d3. As a long standing blizzard supporter, im now jumping ship for this reason. Heck, I didn't even buy my diablo 3 because of this reason and don't plan on buying more blizzard games.
While I agree with you on the features you advocate, I invite you to take a look at what EQNext actually looks like so far. If you can look at that and see an adult game then I don't know what to say. The game is being targeted at the least common denominator attention span and availability, as well as younger players.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Respawn naked where you are bound. Possibly with an experience loss. A game without consequences to death will destroy itself. Bring back corpse runs!
Nope, penalties will destroy it. I vote pro REMOVA of ALL penalties, just respawn in place and continue to play. All the rest is just one big ANNOYING ANNOYANCE!
As for easy dying: not sure if all, but I really hate to dye. That is biggest penalty. And if I see I will die and can not escape I will always try to bring with me as many as I can.
For those of us who like to play adult games where intellect and skill matter, we want consequences and yes that means harsh death penalties as well.
so like the everquests before it should be an adult game where there are consequences for smart playing like rewards and consequences for bad playing like bad builds which you cant just rectify by not understanding the game and inspecting someone who does or harsh death penalties.
There is a market for both the 9 year old casual player who wants a generic game with no consequences and the adult player who wants to play a competitive gave which must thus have consequences.
All the adult players who are sick of games where you might as well let a bot just play for you since there will be no rewards or punishments for your actions like in wow, ie a large part of the untapped market have been looking for a mmorpg like that for a long time ever since wow got dumbed down in wotlk and diablo in d3.
What about those of us that want a social cooperative game where we adventure together to achieve goals and overcome obstacles? AKA Everquest.
The whole competitive, everyone for themselves, I'm the best attitude that exploded (didn't start) with WoW and has made the genre what it is today is something I do not want at all.
While I get that if you are big into being "the best" you don't want people to copy your build or whatever, but shouldn't there be more to it? Such as how you use the build? The copycat is taking a shortcut, but that doesn't make them any more skilled with the info.
I didn't realize Everquest was for adults (think I was 16-17 when it released). Nor the majority of mmos for that matter. I'm a bit older then some of the younger gamers that appear to have all the intellect and skill, looking at the pro competitive players. Age doesn't seem to help me too much.
I'm all for risk vs reward, challenging content (various levels), and an all around game that pushes players to their limits (cross fingers for Storybricks), but it doesn't have to be faceroll easy mode or dedicate your life to the game to be "good" either. Well designed, EQN could cater to a wide variety of players, because overall, we are a very diverse group.
I never found early EQ or WoW "hard" or to require skill/intellect. Was just a matter being new experiences and trial and error, figuring out the dance/pattern, getting the gear and perfecting it. Sure those with "skill" did it faster/easier, but anyone that could get a decent sized group together and everyone do their part wasn't that crazy hard.
PVP is a different story though. That side of most of these games is an entirely different animal. Being amazing at WoW's arenas didn't have a huge connection to being able to do the hardest PVE content.
I've also never played a game with a harsh death penalty that really mattered. Losing gear, gold, XP, etc is not harsh. It is a time sink and simply requires more play time. Games with Permadeath usually have easy to get ..... so losing it isn't the end of the world. Then there are games like Diablo 3 with Hardcore mode where one death can wipe out quite a lot of hours of investment. I hope to not see to much focus being on forcing players to play more simply because of death, rather the game be entertaining enough to want to do that already.
"Life of consequence" doesn't mean amazing rewards or severe punishments from what I've seen. I look at it more as putting choices into the players hands and allowing them to decide their path. Want to be a SK, go do stuff that helps that path, but it will hurt your chances at being a Paly. Killed a bunch of Halfling children, the adults are probably going to hunt you down. Actions and consequences.
Not, "Crap I didn't pick the correct race, class, diety, build, gear, skill, etc and wasn't able to see into the future, now I'm screwed forever."
For those of us who like to play adult games where intellect and skill matter, we want consequences and yes that means harsh death penalties as well.
so like the everquests before it should be an adult game where there are consequences for smart playing like rewards and consequences for bad playing like bad builds which you cant just rectify by not understanding the game and inspecting someone who does or harsh death penalties.
There is a market for both the 9 year old casual player who wants a generic game with no consequences and the adult player who wants to play a competitive gave which must thus have consequences.
All the adult players who are sick of games where you might as well let a bot just play for you since there will be no rewards or punishments for your actions like in wow, ie a large part of the untapped market have been looking for a mmorpg like that for a long time ever since wow got dumbed down in wotlk and diablo in d3.
What about those of us that want a social cooperative game where we adventure together to achieve goals and overcome obstacles? AKA Everquest.
The whole competitive, everyone for themselves, I'm the best attitude that exploded (didn't start) with WoW and has made the genre what it is today is something I do not want at all.
While I get that if you are big into being "the best" you don't want people to copy your build or whatever, but shouldn't there be more to it? Such as how you use the build? The copycat is taking a shortcut, but that doesn't make them any more skilled with the info.
I didn't realize Everquest was for adults (think I was 16-17 when it released). Nor the majority of mmos for that matter. I'm a bit older then some of the younger gamers that appear to have all the intellect and skill, looking at the pro competitive players. Age doesn't seem to help me too much.
I'm all for risk vs reward, challenging content (various levels), and an all around game that pushes players to their limits (cross fingers for Storybricks), but it doesn't have to be faceroll easy mode or dedicate your life to the game to be "good" either. Well designed, EQN could cater to a wide variety of players, because overall, we are a very diverse group.
I never found early EQ or WoW "hard" or to require skill/intellect. Was just a matter being new experiences and trial and error, figuring out the dance/pattern, getting the gear and perfecting it. Sure those with "skill" did it faster/easier, but anyone that could get a decent sized group together and everyone do their part wasn't that crazy hard.
PVP is a different story though. That side of most of these games is an entirely different animal. Being amazing at WoW's arenas didn't have a huge connection to being able to do the hardest PVE content.
I've also never played a game with a harsh death penalty that really mattered. Losing gear, gold, XP, etc is not harsh. It is a time sink and simply requires more play time. Games with Permadeath usually have easy to get ..... so losing it isn't the end of the world. Then there are games like Diablo 3 with Hardcore mode where one death can wipe out quite a lot of hours of investment. I hope to not see to much focus being on forcing players to play more simply because of death, rather the game be entertaining enough to want to do that already.
"Life of consequence" doesn't mean amazing rewards or severe punishments from what I've seen. I look at it more as putting choices into the players hands and allowing them to decide their path. Want to be a SK, go do stuff that helps that path, but it will hurt your chances at being a Paly. Killed a bunch of Halfling children, the adults are probably going to hunt you down. Actions and consequences.
Not, "Crap I didn't pick the correct race, class, diety, build, gear, skill, etc and wasn't able to see into the future, now I'm screwed forever."
The reply to this is simple.
Even without allowing players to steal your work via a fully invasive inspect skill, players will still work together to overcome obstacles because you cant do obstacles by yourself so that argument is void.
The second argument you made is about the copy cat who steals your build, one which he cant make himself because he is not skilled enough, might not be more skilled than you once he steals your work. This is a stupid argument for several reasons.
Firstly, he is probably not as smart as you so cant make your build so him stealing your build is him stealing your advantage, your work and skill for himself by copying. This is like someone who cant get an A on an exam but if he copies your work he will. An example of this is someone who cant do basic maths and put the factors into spreadsheet to maximise his build or someone whos understanding of maths is so bad that they cant even use basic multipliers or someone who has never learnt even basic science and doesn't know how to identify factors for analysis even without a spreadsheet.
Secondly, apart from the fact that he doesn't have the skill to build as well as you but wants to cheat off your work which is wrong, he might be worse at building but might be better at playing which would make you the loser after he steals your work which is unfair. Even if he is still worse than you, the gap between his skill level and yours will seem smaller because he has cheated off your work.
Thirdly, if one person does the work to create a build carefully, it should be up to them to decide who they believe deserves help and who doesn't, their work shouldn't just eb available for even people they dislike or their opponents in game to steal their work.
Next argument.
You seem to be misunderstanding what I mean by for adults. I am talking about the underlying gameplay mechanics not the preface of the world itself. The game is made accessible for kids with the graphics, storyline, non mature content but any game where the building is complex and people cant steal your work or obtain it without your permission is 'for adults.'
A good example of this is wow before WOTLK, before it had a fully invasive inspect feature. I calculated the DPS of my build and this was the highest DPS in multiple guilds till my last guild and could never be matched. I was made class leader etec etc etc but then a fully invasive inspect feature came along and in pvp and pve people could just copy my build and thus dps output without being able to work it out for themselves. Also respeccing prior to WOTLK was exceptionally hard so there were penalties for failure making it more adult.
Another good example of what I mean as adult is dragon age. it is clearly a game marketed for kids but the underlying gameplay is complex to model, you have to be able to calculate how much increses in stats increase effective life and defective damage, combine that with abilities and gear etc.
So what Im saying is any idiot can pick up and play these games but not any idiot can make a great build, they majority of players are middle of the road cannon fodder and then the few great ones emerge as long as their work cant be stolen.
By the way you never found wow hard for this reason because you just intuitively built, you never calculated dps, you never spreadsheet modelled, you never put the work in because you didn't know how. You are the exact type of player who would try to cheat off the back of the work of others. In PvP especially this is a huge detriment to any game but also for any competitive element of PvE.
Also your trial and error method will never result in optimisation, that's merely guessing and it results in big mistakes that you never realise because you don't know what to look for. People like me don't want people like you stealing our work without our permission then trying to beat us in PvP or PvE.
Players should win on their own merit and skill not off the backs of others who consider them competition.
Lastly, you say harsh death penalties are a time sink and that's right. Those time sinks act as a barrier to bad playing just like the lack of a fully invasive inspect acts as a barrier to people trying to copy other peoples builds or an expensive respect skill penalises people for mistakes and acts as a barrier to making too many mistakes.
All these barriers add up, for example without a fully invasive inspect, youw ould have to make someone believe you were worth it before they teach you things you don't understand or alternatively you could still create the same build by yourself but that's because the barrier made you do so. So lets take the example of magic the gathering, you could make the same build but would you know what to look for, would you know how to go about it. Would you figure out that you have to look for hypergeometric distributions and then find out how to do it and then model it on a spreadsheet or would you rather just inspect me, then copy me and cheat.
Lesser players would choose the easy way.
Life of consequence means rewards for good playing and consequences for bad playing. Yes it does mean putting choices in players hands but that means those choices must have consequences. That means no easy respecs, no making builds which don't matter. Every choice in your build must matter, must have a consequence and if you can easily fix it or just copy another, there are no consequences for bad playing.
I'm all for risk vs reward, challenging content (various levels), and an all around game that pushes players to their limits (cross fingers for Storybricks), but it doesn't have to be faceroll easy mode or dedicate your life to the game to be "good" either. Well designed, EQN could cater to a wide variety of players, because overall, we are a very diverse group. Well first, it is next to impossible to code open world challenging content that scales to the players abilities..(especially for groups).. As you said, we are very diverse and that is true.. I have friends that are better then me in dps roles, and I'm better then them in support roles.. This is why even scaling AI's like GW2's DE's are still faceroll material.. Take any group that has a mix of good and bad players.. How does the AI scale the challenge so that the lesser players don't die often and quick, but then make it too easy that the better players still laugh and win?
I never found early EQ or WoW "hard" or to require skill/intellect. Was just a matter being new experiences and trial and error, figuring out the dance/pattern, getting the gear and perfecting it. Sure those with "skill" did it faster/easier, but anyone that could get a decent sized group together and everyone do their part wasn't that crazy hard. True.. I really really hated the "learn the dance" raid formula, but I guess everyone needs a trophy in the end.. I personally like to see mobs coded with more variables, so the fights are unpredictable.. Does the mob turn and run, or does it charge, or does it charm me, stun? or maybe he likes to do dps from a distance.. Does the tribal shaman heal his buddies, or does he curse me? I never did like combat when I knew what the outcome will be before I started the fight.. lol
PVP is a different story though. That side of most of these games is an entirely different animal. Being amazing at WoW's arenas didn't have a huge connection to being able to do the hardest PVE content. And why should PvP arena players get to faceroll raid content, without earning their way to that point? I noticed you didn't say anything about PvE raiders being able to dominate the PvP arena.. Freudian slip?
"Life of consequence" doesn't mean amazing rewards or severe punishments from what I've seen. I look at it more as putting choices into the players hands and allowing them to decide their path. Want to be a SK, go do stuff that helps that path, but it will hurt your chances at being a Paly. Killed a bunch of Halfling children, the adults are probably going to hunt you down. Actions and consequences. But are they "real" consequences or just faction playing.. I have yet to see anything that shows "real" consequences.. Sure the player wants to become a SK (evil) and in doing so, he tanks his good rep into the sewers.. Now the player is an SK and has all the skills and abilities of being one.. Darn it.. EQN promotes obtaining "all" the 40 classes.. So where is the consequences of losing ALL your SK class abilities if you are no longer evil because you decide to pursue the good path instead.. From what I'm hearing and seeing is that consequences are ONLY TEMPORARY.. Shit, that isn't a consequence, that is just a time sink speed bump.. lol
Not, "Crap I didn't pick the correct race, class, diety, build, gear, skill, etc and wasn't able to see into the future, now I'm screwed forever." Now that is a real consequence of being a half elf druid.. I did that in EQ1 when I first started playing and never regretted it.. If you felt you chose the wrong class, deity, etc etc.. Just create a new character, I had lots of alts and loved playing them.. I"m so sick and tired of players feeling they are entitled to be EVERYTHING all of the time..Think about it Allein.. You promote consequences but then change your tune when it works against you.. YES.. "you just killed the wrong girl" and yes you are screwed forever in doing so.. Now that is a consequence just like picking the wrong deity.. LOL
Life of consequence means rewards for good playing and consequences for bad playing. Yes it does mean putting choices in players hands but that means those choices must have consequences. That means no easy respecs, no making builds which don't matter. Every choice in your build must matter, must have a consequence and if you can easily fix it or just copy another, there are no consequences for bad playing.
There should be more consequences and trade offs in ALL aspects of the game as well.. Which armor should I wear? Sure the cloth is lighter and makes me more mobile, and less encumbered, but I can't take damage as easily.. Let me put on some plate armor.. Damn, I'm buffed and ready to tank, but I sure feel encumbered and my dodge percentage just dropped.. I loved when food/drink was required on your person ALL of the time or you became hungry or thirsty and that had consequences to your character.. Do I carry and eat snack size foods, or large meals? Meals lasted longer, but inventory was an issue.. I miss the consequences and trade off of "managing" your character, outside of PURE combat numbers.. I always had friends and guildies seeking me out for my cooking and leather working skills.. I was good for the economy..
Now there is another consequence too.. Crafting.. You want to focus all your time in hack and slash and could give a rats ass about crafting.. FINE.. Go buy your needed items off someone else.. But games today "GIVE" all the hack and slasher players everything thru "loot" drops or vendor purchase.. Grrrr I don't see EQN being a game about "consequences" at all..
Originally posted by nbtscan You could always just log out of the game for an hour everytime you die rather than trying to impose an unpopular decision on the majority of people that don't want this.
This.
The OP or anyone else can, at their own discretion, create their own death penalty, by logging out for a particular period of time, vendor trashing all their gear, deleting and rerolling... the possibilities are endless.
Pretty sure the desire for a harsh death penalty isn't for them; they want it for other players. Whether it's for more satisfaction in PvP griefing, or to get other players to play the way they want them to, I suppose we have our own motivations.
On another point...
I'd have no problem with a developer creating a voluntary DP system in which players who partake will get a bonus of some kind. Tabula Rasa had this toward the end, where you could put up a piece of gear that would be lost if you died. You would get an XP bonus based on the quality of the gear.
However, most game just amp up the difficulty vs. reward side of the equation, rather than risk vs. reward(they are two ENTIRELY different things). Examples are Elite dungeons, CoX difficulty sliders, etc. Basically, better loot for fighting more powerful enemies.
Given that devs have moved more toward difficulty vs. reward, rather than risk vs. reward(reduced or eliminated the latter in many cases), well, we can only speculate as to why. But the truth of the matter is, they have FAR more data with which to make decisions than we armchair devs do.
Please don't make this game fluffy -- it's already been hinted by Disney gfx .. One of the coolest things in the EQ series is that there are places that few dare to go! And those that go there were respected, but others that don't dare feared that place... "WHOA he has gear from xx place!!!!" rather than "oh...that gear... everyone has it..everyone's been there because there's no fear in going there..."
Risk:Reward
--------------------------- Former EQ1 Rallos Zek (PvP) Ascendant Chronei Immortal of Rallos Zek (Now @ Prexus)
There Is another factor that "steers" developers away from harsh death penalties. It is much harder to design and code "dungeons" if the death penalty is harsh.
Players - rightly - expect to have a chance. In pen and paper games the DM would tweak things; coding AI to do the same .... much harder.
So missions are essentially "dumb" with the decision on whether it is to hard or not being left to the players.
If the death penalty is "lower" they will be more likely to take a risk; if it is "harsh" they will play safe and make sure they are overpowered.
Bottom line: a harsh death penalty would probably dumb down the game!
Exactly. Even some not very harsh, but insanely counterproductive penalties:
They aren't as common anymore, but what can I say about the sheer idiocy of weakness penalties? Especially in dungeons. "Yes, here we are, 3 hours into a raid going after the big boss. TPW! Now we're waiting around for this 30 minute weakness timer to expire, when the only alternative is to leave and have to run this 3 hour raid again later.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. If there's better evidence that past DP's were idiologically(misspelling intended) driven rather than gameplay driven, I don't know of one.
Anyhoo, the devs did have another option, which is to make the boss easier; a choice they often made back in the days when MMO's were still clinging to this notion that these setback DP's just HAD to exist. Or they made them easier in the first place.
Fully agree with Radison. He has completely the right idea there, consequences for all actions either good or bad so that they matter.
No quick fixes for mistakes, no ability to copy anothers work via a fully invasive inspect skill etc.
There are many games in which there are no consequences which as so casual they are almost meaningless. They make up about 90% of mmos soi if you are desperate for a game with no consequences there are many for you to choose from.
However, for all the people that want a deep and serious game with adult gameplay even if it has pg undertones, there is everquest next.
Thirdly, if one person does the work to create a build carefully, it should be up to them to decide who they believe deserves help and who doesn't, their work shouldn't just eb available for even people they dislike or their opponents in game to steal their work.
While I understand this view, what does someone else win or you lose if they were to copy you? How are you being personally harmed? People seem to love sharing their builds (see forums/youtube/twitch) and I've never seen anyone scarred for life from someone else using their build. If I could help someone else have a more enjoyable/productive experience, I have no issue sharing, that's me though. I'm not trying to be "the best" to prove how amazing I am in a game.
You seem to be misunderstanding what I mean by for adults. I am talking about the underlying gameplay mechanics not the preface of the world itself. The game is made accessible for kids with the graphics, storyline, non mature content but any game where the building is complex and people cant steal your work or obtain it without your permission is 'for adults.'
So adults don't share then? Still lost on this.
A good example of this is wow before WOTLK, before it had a fully invasive inspect feature. I calculated the DPS of my build and this was the highest DPS in multiple guilds till my last guild and could never be matched. I was made class leader etec etc etc but then a fully invasive inspect feature came along and in pvp and pve people could just copy my build and thus dps output without being able to work it out for themselves. Also respeccing prior to WOTLK was exceptionally hard so there were penalties for failure making it more adult.
So until WOTLK, WoW was for "adults"? Guess all the teenagers playing were lost. Maybe there is a better term for it, but adults isn't doing it for me. But I get it as WoW had many elitist folks that had to top every chart and be "the best" to prove something. Guess I just don't share that mentality. I want to have a good time, but not at the expense of others or because others aren't as good as me.
So what Im saying is any idiot can pick up and play these games but not any idiot can make a great build, they majority of players are middle of the road cannon fodder and then the few great ones emerge as long as their work cant be stolen.
Makes sense, just think you are in or want to be in the top ~5% or less of gamers and aren't really the main focus when companies make games. I'm sure min/maxing will still exist in EQN, but as it won't have the vertical power grind, maybe it will happen in a different way. Not sure how someone could be "the best" in EQN. Beyond some personal bar. If you want to have the highest DPS, go for it, but not sure that will translate into being "the best" unlike other games. Maybe someone with a good CC build will be better in one situation and good healing in the next. All very subjective and dependent on how much your put into your epeen.
By the way you never found wow hard for this reason because you just intuitively built, you never calculated dps, you never spreadsheet modelled, you never put the work in because you didn't know how. You are the exact type of player who would try to cheat off the back of the work of others. In PvP especially this is a huge detriment to any game but also for any competitive element of PvE.
Don't try to know me. When I played WoW, I min/maxed and was in a top end raiding guild (not world top, but still a head of the pack). No I didn't calculate down to the .000001% cause I don't enjoy math that much, have that much free time, nor care that much about a game. Excel is no stranger to me though. Now though, I am much more casual and my priorities and reasons for playing have changed. So I have no issue looking for help if I need it. Luckily there are plenty of folks that don't live in box only caring for themselves.
Also your trial and error method will never result in optimisation, that's merely guessing and it results in big mistakes that you never realise because you don't know what to look for. People like me don't want people like you stealing our work without our permission then trying to beat us in PvP or PvE.
Again this goes back to knowing what to do with it. Give me a lvl 100 WoW character and I'd have no clue what to do as I stopped during TBC. Just because I have access to something doesn't equate to using it effectively, although it could speed up the process. Good job on your part I guess for unlocking the secret formula. Without a lot of data mining, trial and error is needed to some degree. I'm too lazy to read what I wrote, but I was probably talking about raiding and not knowing how a boss worked. There is no spreadsheet to see into the future. Skill wise though, no I'm not going to waste my time on math to get a tiny boost in performance. WoW (or any game) is that complicated really to make a huge difference.
Players should win on their own merit and skill not off the backs of others who consider them competition.
I understand this and hopefully full inspection down to what underwear you are wearing in EQN isn't a thing.
Lastly, you say harsh death penalties are a time sink and that's right. Those time sinks act as a barrier to bad playing just like the lack of a fully invasive inspect acts as a barrier to people trying to copy other peoples builds or an expensive respect skill penalises people for mistakes and acts as a barrier to making too many mistakes.
Yet they are fairly meaningless in the long run. Unless a game has a very tedious death system, eventually everyone will end up in the same place. If your goal is to be the first of something, good for you, but with enough effort anyone can do it. Never seen a game where death keeps someone from reaching a goal by months/years or anything. Usually those that are first to max level or have a ton of gold quickly or whatever random thing are using some exploit or game flaw that is fixed leaving those that didn't abuse it playing as intended.
Lesser players would choose the easy way.
Or ones with different priorities. We all value things differently. Could just as easily say a bigger person would share what they've learned and not be selfish...
Life of consequence means rewards for good playing and consequences for bad playing. Yes it does mean putting choices in players hands but that means those choices must have consequences. That means no easy respecs, no making builds which don't matter. Every choice in your build must matter, must have a consequence and if you can easily fix it or just copy another, there are no consequences for bad playing.
Obviously this is subjective and we aren't going to agree, nor is SOE going to share what we think. Just words. With what they've shown so far, they are going for fun and not punishing players for making the wrong choice. Seems there won't be a "wrong" choice and simply choices that lead to different results. Door A goes to X, Door B goes to Y, not Door A you get a prize, Door B you get kicked in the face.
However, for all the people that want a deep and serious game with adult gameplay even if it has pg undertones, there is everquest next.
I'm not going to go reread this thread, but is anyone actually in favor of a shallow, unserious, steal all your special builds game? Thread was about death penalties, but seems to have gotten a bit derailed like pretty much every other topic, then again we are all serious, complex, adults that just have to force feed our opinions on others
Well first, it is next to impossible to code open world challenging content that scales to the players abilities..(especially for groups).. As you said, we are very diverse and that is true.. I have friends that are better then me in dps roles, and I'm better then them in support roles.. This is why even scaling AI's like GW2's DE's are still faceroll material.. Take any group that has a mix of good and bad players.. How does the AI scale the challenge so that the lesser players don't die often and quick, but then make it too easy that the better players still laugh and win?
I was going for more of different portions of the game have different challenge levels. Not that the AI is smart enough to not hurt Billy too much cause he sucks, but smack me in the face because I'm good. But instead of the WoW/EQ design where all the "good" content is the "end game" there would be content for every challenge level, spread through the world (Tiers/Procedurally generated) where players could always find something to do.
Not either get good and do "end game" or suck and run the same easy mode dungeon that isn't as cool as the "end game" ones. None of which is too drastically different then what has come before, just not making it so focused on the vertical elements. So there could be a Dragon in Tier 1 that is a good challenge for 50 Tier 1 players and a Tier 5 Dragon plus some friends for a 20 Tier 5 players. Both with varying degrees of rewards. Again since there isn't a focus on vertical power or "best" gear, things go vary greatly where you HAVE to kill one particular mob for a certain pair of boots.
True.. I really really hated the "learn the dance" raid formula, but I guess everyone needs a trophy in the end.. I personally like to see mobs coded with more variables, so the fights are unpredictable.. Does the mob turn and run, or does it charge, or does it charm me, stun? or maybe he likes to do dps from a distance.. Does the tribal shaman heal his buddies, or does he curse me? I never did like combat when I knew what the outcome will be before I started the fight.. lol
Exactly. My ideal system would have a Tier 1 Shaman that can do 1 attack, 1 heal. Tier 5 shaman has 12 skills (same as a player Shaman) and is able to utilize them to a decent degree. So they'd CC/Heal/DPS along with their buddies against mine. As the classes should stand out, I'd know "Hey that's a Shaman and I bet he can do XYZ" but I wouldn't know when/how it would happen. No magic dance to get it all go perfectly in my direction. Still can learn and beat it, but always variables to keep me on my toes.
And why should PvP arena players get to faceroll raid content, without earning their way to that point? I noticed you didn't say anything about PvE raiders being able to dominate the PvP arena.. Freudian slip?
Too lazy tonight to look into what I was even talking about, but I don't think there should be a difference between PVP/PVE players as I don't want to see PVP be a mini-game within EQN or even be in the core game at all. Tired of all the issues PVP brings despite loving PVP itself. Think I was pointing out that gear doesn't give someone "skill" nor does copying a build. Someone that has enough skill to copy and use it well probably isn't benefiting that greatly from copying to begin with, just being lazy. As EQN won't focus on vertical power/gear, hopefully these issues are such a big deal where someone that has done PVE for a year can't just walk into a PVP setting and dominate people because of gear.
But are they "real" consequences or just faction playing.. I have yet to see anything that shows "real" consequences.. Sure the player wants to become a SK (evil) and in doing so, he tanks his good rep into the sewers.. Now the player is an SK and has all the skills and abilities of being one.. Darn it.. EQN promotes obtaining "all" the 40 classes.. So where is the consequences of losing ALL your SK class abilities if you are no longer evil because you decide to pursue the good path instead.. From what I'm hearing and seeing is that consequences are ONLY TEMPORARY.. Shit, that isn't a consequence, that is just a time sink speed bump.. lol
One of the many "we shall see" features. As they seem to be going for long term fun with one character, I'm doubting any choices will impact a character forever. Maybe you can only be a SK or Pally, not both or by going down one path, the other takes 10 times longer. Who knows. I'm sure "factions" will play into it, but that is how life works in general, you do stuff and earn/lose stuff. Highly doubt they will "punish" or remove parts of the game if someone makes the wrong choice. As in, "Sorry Billy, you chose to follow the path of the SK five years ago, you can't try to be a Pally now." Rabid seems to be a big min/max "serious" gamer, which doesn't seem to be EQN's main priority and my response was to that mentality.
Now that is a real consequence of being a half elf druid.. I did that in EQ1 when I first started playing and never regretted it.. If you felt you chose the wrong class, deity, etc etc.. Just create a new character, I had lots of alts and loved playing them.. I"m so sick and tired of players feeling they are entitled to be EVERYTHING all of the time..Think about it Allein.. You promote consequences but then change your tune when it works against you.. YES.. "you just killed the wrong girl" and yes you are screwed forever in doing so.. Now that is a consequence just like picking the wrong deity.. LOL
While I've enjoyed it as that's how many games function, I think in general most like having options and the longer we play a single game, the more serious those choices and become. No way to know that 10 years down the line XYZ will be in the game and the choice made on day 1 seriously impacts you now. While I would like to see day to day choices have some decent longevity, things like race shouldn't. Unless nothing down the road is going to factor them in and limit gameplay.
I hate alts and want to play one character, having 10 characters is immersion breaking for me and why I get burnt out. While I don't want to instantly have access to everything, if I put in the equivalent amount of work as two characters into one, I'd like to get double the reward. Find it such a waste to put in 6 months of work into 2 characters and 1 year into 1 and basically be at the same place as the 2.
Life of consequence means rewards for good playing and consequences for bad playing. Yes it does mean putting choices in players hands but that means those choices must have consequences. That means no easy respecs, no making builds which don't matter. Every choice in your build must matter, must have a consequence and if you can easily fix it or just copy another, there are no consequences for bad playing.
Who determines what is bad? You? The devs? What is bad? How do players know what is a bad build? Players must spend countless hours on the meta before doing anything in game? I have nothing against folks that want to invest their time and perfect themselves, but see no reason others have to submit themselves to the same.
Take a Mage in WoW (I played one so it's what I'll go with). Initially had 3 main specs. At any given time/patch, one could be better then another in various ways. How would I know which would get buffed/nerfed, tweaked, whatever? Or do any changes equal a free respec and we are simply at the mercy of the devs design changes?
What if I think one spec is the best DPS looking at the numbers, but in actual play it turns out not to be? I'm screwed because I simply can't factor in the countless variables?
While I don't mind consequences for choices, there has to be some relaxation in some areas.
Huge factor, what if every single detail isn't revealed to the players or easy data mined (WoW)? What if the math is hidden to some degree? Now players not only have to decide their fate and pick a spec, they have to do it semi blindly? Where is the fun for those that don't want to min/max and just want to attempt to play, even if their choices lead to them having a tough time? For me, picking a crap build, sucking, having to respec, trying again until the suck decreases seems like a consequence in itself. I'm not harmed if someone has to respec 20 times before they find a "good" build. While I can choose to spend a month before I decide on mine and get it right on the 1st go. No need to impose personal style on others.
There should be more consequences and trade offs in ALL aspects of the game as well.. Which armor should I wear? Sure the cloth is lighter and makes me more mobile, and less encumbered, but I can't take damage as easily.. Let me put on some plate armor.. Damn, I'm buffed and ready to tank, but I sure feel encumbered and my dodge percentage just dropped.. I loved when food/drink was required on your person ALL of the time or you became hungry or thirsty and that had consequences to your character.. Do I carry and eat snack size foods, or large meals? Meals lasted longer, but inventory was an issue.. I miss the consequences and trade off of "managing" your character, outside of PURE combat numbers.. I always had friends and guildies seeking me out for my cooking and leather working skills.. I was good for the economy..
I like these features as well, but think they fit in more with an open system where a character can be anything and isn't tied down to classes or lore. A Warrior putting on cloth to be more agile is a bit silly to me and usually leads to some random combo that is OP and gets toned down anyway. Plate Mage Healer to rule them all!
Now there is another consequence too.. Crafting.. You want to focus all your time in hack and slash and could give a rats ass about crafting.. FINE.. Go buy your needed items off someone else.. But games today "GIVE" all the hack and slasher players everything thru "loot" drops or vendor purchase.. Grrrr I don't see EQN being a game about "consequences" at all..
I do hope crafting is a huge part of EQN and they've said something along the lines that crafting and social will be the soul of EQN. Hoping most mobs drop crafting materials and not straight gear. At least make it have to be repaired/altered to be usable. Very against the run a dungeon 100 times for a pair of boots or tokens to turn in for boots. Much rather materials be obtainable in reasonable ways that can then be used to our liking.
Thirdly, if one person does the work to create a build carefully, it should be up to them to decide who they believe deserves help and who doesn't, their work shouldn't just eb available for even people they dislike or their opponents in game to steal their work.
While I understand this view, what does someone else win or you lose if they were to copy you? How are you being personally harmed? People seem to love sharing their builds (see forums/youtube/twitch) and I've never seen anyone scarred for life from someone else using their build. If I could help someone else have a more enjoyable/productive experience, I have no issue sharing, that's me though. I'm not trying to be "the best" to prove how amazing I am in a game.
This is the problem with people like you. You don't want to be competitive and that's fine but many if not most people do. People want to compete in multiplayer games, they are built around competition. So very simple, how is a person harmed if a crap player copies their build? They are harmed because they are made less competitive, less superior to their opponent not only that but they could become worse and lose. If I am better at building and spreadsheet modelling and you are better at twitch playing, 9 out of 10 times my superior building skills will enable me to beat you but if you steal my build even though you cant model gameplay mechanics, you steal my work and ability which you couldn't have made yourself. Then ofcourse there is the moral argument, lets say I don't like you for whatever reason, then I shouldn't have to help you by being forced to allow you to steal my build.
You seem to be misunderstanding what I mean by for adults. I am talking about the underlying gameplay mechanics not the preface of the world itself. The game is made accessible for kids with the graphics, storyline, non mature content but any game where the building is complex and people cant steal your work or obtain it without your permission is 'for adults.'
So adults don't share then? Still lost on this.
You are lost on this because you didn't understand that paragraph at all. It was about what makes a game an adult game in my opinion and that is complex gameplay mechanics. For example, in diablo 3 the way the multipliers work, which are exclusive multipliers and which aren't, which abilities have hard caps and soft caps, how skills, gear, paragon points are put together to create what is called effective dps as opposed to weapon dps. To work these things out, you need to understand maths, gameplay mechanics, how to test the mechanics and to build spreadsheets. These are fundamentals of building that (1) a child cannot do and (2) an uneducated adult cannot do.
A good example of this is wow before WOTLK, before it had a fully invasive inspect feature. I calculated the DPS of my build and this was the highest DPS in multiple guilds till my last guild and could never be matched. I was made class leader etec etc etc but then a fully invasive inspect feature came along and in pvp and pve people could just copy my build and thus dps output without being able to work it out for themselves. Also respeccing prior to WOTLK was exceptionally hard so there were penalties for failure making it more adult.
So until WOTLK, WoW was for "adults"? Guess all the teenagers playing were lost. Maybe there is a better term for it, but adults isn't doing it for me. But I get it as WoW had many elitist folks that had to top every chart and be "the best" to prove something. Guess I just don't share that mentality. I want to have a good time, but not at the expense of others or because others aren't as good as me.
Again you fail to understand so I will explain for you using diablo. The mechanics in diablo 3 that I mentioned above make it adult but the game is ruined because someone like me can find out the gameplay mechanics and model them n a spreadsheet or someone with less but some knowledge can work out a basic approximation of exlusive, non exclusive multipliers and ntheir relationships to build a better character than someone like you. That would be worthwhile and allow us to defeat you in competition but Diablo just like wow in WOTLK is ruined by the fact that a fully invasive inspect feature lets a bad player like you who realises he is losing to look at our builds and copy them thereby taking away our advantage in skill over you without actually being able to do the work themselves. You would have no idea how to understand and simulate the gameplay mechanics to create a good build so instead you would just copy us without our permission like cheating in an exam.
So what Im saying is any idiot can pick up and play these games but not any idiot can make a great build, they majority of players are middle of the road cannon fodder and then the few great ones emerge as long as their work cant be stolen.
Makes sense, just think you are in or want to be in the top ~5% or less of gamers and aren't really the main focus when companies make games. I'm sure min/maxing will still exist in EQN, but as it won't have the vertical power grind, maybe it will happen in a different way. Not sure how someone could be "the best" in EQN. Beyond some personal bar. If you want to have the highest DPS, go for it, but not sure that will translate into being "the best" unlike other games. Maybe someone with a good CC build will be better in one situation and good healing in the next. All very subjective and dependent on how much your put into your epeen.
You are wrong once again, almost all people who play multiplayer games want a competitive aspect and in rpgs a big factor in the competitive aspect is building because that's a fundamental of rpgs. What you are suggesting is that there is no competitive aspect or people don't want competition or want a clone shooter because you don't have the intellect to build so if you want a clone shooter, go play halo or gears of war. As for best, the guy who gets the highest pvp rating is the best, the guy who gets the highest raid dps is the best dps, your definition and fear of competition is irrelevant.
By the way you never found wow hard for this reason because you just intuitively built, you never calculated dps, you never spreadsheet modelled, you never put the work in because you didn't know how. You are the exact type of player who would try to cheat off the back of the work of others. In PvP especially this is a huge detriment to any game but also for any competitive element of PvE.
Don't try to know me. When I played WoW, I min/maxed and was in a top end raiding guild (not world top, but still a head of the pack). No I didn't calculate down to the .000001% cause I don't enjoy math that much, have that much free time, nor care that much about a game. Excel is no stranger to me though. Now though, I am much more casual and my priorities and reasons for playing have changed. So I have no issue looking for help if I need it. Luckily there are plenty of folks that don't live in box only caring for themselves.
You don't know how to mix max, you don't know how to theory craft, everything you have written so far is about supporting your right to copy other peoples builds and how no one should be able to hide their work and about how you don't care about competition and think no one else does. You aren't fooling anyone. Btw no one enjoys maths, people enjoy using it to make something meaninfuly, you lack of ability to use it in building or to understand gameplay mechanics is your weakness, don't blame others for it and say that just because you aren't able, they shouldn't be allowed to use it either or their ability should be negated by you stealing their work by a fully invasive inspect feature.
Also your trial and error method will never result in optimisation, that's merely guessing and it results in big mistakes that you never realise because you don't know what to look for. People like me don't want people like you stealing our work without our permission then trying to beat us in PvP or PvE.
Again this goes back to knowing what to do with it. Give me a lvl 100 WoW character and I'd have no clue what to do as I stopped during TBC. Just because I have access to something doesn't equate to using it effectively, although it could speed up the process. Good job on your part I guess for unlocking the secret formula. Without a lot of data mining, trial and error is needed to some degree. I'm too lazy to read what I wrote, but I was probably talking about raiding and not knowing how a boss worked. There is no spreadsheet to see into the future. Skill wise though, no I'm not going to waste my time on math to get a tiny boost in performance. WoW (or any game) is that complicated really to make a huge difference.
All I hear here is excuses. Anyone can raid, to be competitive you have to do something others cant and that's exactly what you are afraid of. Thank you for admitting that you cant optimise though but just because you are unable to doesn't mean you should have the right to try to prevent everyone else from doing so. You don't want to be competitive according to your words anyway so you should have no problem with losing to people who do have optimised builds.
Players should win on their own merit and skill not off the backs of others who consider them competition.
I understand this and hopefully full inspection down to what underwear you are wearing in EQN isn't a thing.
On this part I don't want to have a huge go at you. Long story short, inspect should be optional and allowable at different levels if at all but not mandatory like in wow and diablo.
Lastly, you say harsh death penalties are a time sink and that's right. Those time sinks act as a barrier to bad playing just like the lack of a fully invasive inspect acts as a barrier to people trying to copy other peoples builds or an expensive respect skill penalises people for mistakes and acts as a barrier to making too many mistakes.
Yet they are fairly meaningless in the long run. Unless a game has a very tedious death system, eventually everyone will end up in the same place. If your goal is to be the first of something, good for you, but with enough effort anyone can do it. Never seen a game where death keeps someone from reaching a goal by months/years or anything. Usually those that are first to max level or have a ton of gold quickly or whatever random thing are using some exploit or game flaw that is fixed leaving those that didn't abuse it playing as intended.
Actually, in the long run, they are very meaningful because these barriers are what deter careless playing and give worth to the actions you do choose to make. Btw no one cares about being 1st, people care about being the best or one of the best. Btw ive seen games where barriers work very well but ill use a popular example, wow prior to wotlk had expensive respecs, people really had to put effort into their build then because if they went by trial and error, they would have to record their damage numbers over several monthes as it would take that much time to constantly farm enough to afford all the respecs which would mean they would have to sacrifice a lot of raiding and other things to do so. Hence, there were big consequences for those choices and the choices were meaningful. It works.
Lesser players would choose the easy way.
Or ones with different priorities. We all value things differently. Could just as easily say a bigger person would share what they've learned and not be selfish...
You call selfishness the choice not to give lesser players your work without them having to do it. If they are paying for your work, then fair enough but just like real life, we don't work for free, lesser players shouldn't be able to copy work they cant do themselves for free either.
Life of consequence means rewards for good playing and consequences for bad playing. Yes it does mean putting choices in players hands but that means those choices must have consequences. That means no easy respecs, no making builds which don't matter. Every choice in your build must matter, must have a consequence and if you can easily fix it or just copy another, there are no consequences for bad playing.
Obviously this is subjective and we aren't going to agree, nor is SOE going to share what we think. Just words. With what they've shown so far, they are going for fun and not punishing players for making the wrong choice. Seems there won't be a "wrong" choice and simply choices that lead to different results. Door A goes to X, Door B goes to Y, not Door A you get a prize, Door B you get kicked in the face.
You say that and you could be right but at the same time I have seen many different elements of customisation within this game so far and that means choice, as long as all of those customisations come with consequences which cant easily be fixed with a trial and error method effectively meaning there is no choice since you will just be able to trial and error the best way or copy it via a fully invasive inspect skill. there will be wrong choices as you put it or less effective choices as I would put it. Strictly speaking you making a crap build isn't a wrong choice, its just a less effective choice than the ones I make.
However, for all the people that want a deep and serious game with adult gameplay even if it has pg undertones, there is everquest next.
I'm not going to go reread this thread, but is anyone actually in favor of a shallow, unserious, steal all your special builds game? Thread was about death penalties, but seems to have gotten a bit derailed like pretty much every other topic, then again we are all serious, complex, adults that just have to force feed our opinions on others
Actually death penalties is to do with consequences, other parallels were given and then you decided to try to force feed your opinion down other peoples throats not me.
All I said is it should be down to the individual to allow others to inspect their gear and builds and justified why. That's supporting peoples right to choice and opinion not to share their work. You on the other hand want a fully incasive inspect forced on them so that they have no choice, maybe you should learn not to force your opinion on others.
I like how Anarchy Online does it. You had to periodically save your progress. If you don't and die, your accumulated XP for that level goes into a pool and you have to earn it back. You don't lose it altogether, but at the time of death, your XP gains since either leveling or saving are taken from you and put in that pool where you would slowly gain it back in addition to your normal XP. In essence, you lose time, you have to work for it back, but you do eventually get fully restored if you work at it.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer I like how Anarchy Online does it. You had to periodically save your progress. If you don't and die, your accumulated XP for that level goes into a pool and you have to earn it back. You don't lose it altogether, but at the time of death, your XP gains since either leveling or saving are taken from you and put in that pool where you would slowly gain it back in addition to your normal XP. In essence, you lose time, you have to work for it back, but you do eventually get fully restored if you work at it.
Im cool with that, I just want choices in games to be meaningful which means they need consequences. If there are just a load of quick fixes, there are no consequences and no choices so you might as well give the player the right or best answer everytime instead of pretending to give them choice.
Which is a good point. There are other more constructive ways to provide challenge such as being able to just get past the point, not matter how often you die. The challenge is being good enough to move on, not dealing with being punished for failure. Challenge in many shooters also incorporates resource management (bullets).
Death penalties in early pnp RPGs were to simulate being weakened after resurrection. The popular pnp games had resurrection be a rarer and more powerful skill because it simulated an alternate reality. Death wasn't as common in the pnp games I played.
Fast forward to video games and death was a monetization angle to get you to drop more quarters in the machine, or in the case of mmos to help lend a little life to that endless subscription. It was never about challenge. Nothing about the DP is challenging. The content is the challenge, the DP is just to set you back to keep you playing longer. It doesn't make you a better player, but it does provide incentive to take fewer risks or zerg with a group.
This sums up my feelings on the matter. Death penalty doesn't make a game more challenging, just more tedious and grueling. Personally immersion in a game (aka not wanting to die because it's a natural instinct), annoyance over death, and a sense of defeat and failure upon death are deterrents enough for me. Saying that having no death penalty is like playing with godmode is false. In most singleplayer games you can simply load a save point and retry, but the fact is that just like death in an MMO you have to start over with whatever you were doing and that's already frustrating enough, especially if you were down in a dungeon, or taking part in some drawn out fight.
Additionally with how reliant you are on quests for EXP now in many MMOs it seems like heavy EXP loss wouldn't work well at all. Unlike older games where a lot of EXP was gained by killing mobs, now if you lose EXP you got from doing a quest, how do you get it back? Killing mobs usually gives little to no EXP, and you already finished the quest so you can't get it back that way. You could easily lose EXP to the point that you make it exponentially more difficult to achieve the next level.
Played: DAoC, AC2, WoW, CoH, GW, GW2, WAR, AoC, Champions Online, Rift, Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Warframe, Neverwinter, Dungeon Fighter Online
Comments
Very succinctly said. It's a trade off. Developers have to choose where to make things hard. Success can be easier, but the punishment for failure is harder, or success can be harder, but the punishment for failure is easier. Nice.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
If we say EQ was too harsh and modern games were too soft I'd agree with that.
To me the part of the EQ system that was harsh was the whole CR for gear. The xp was harsh, but not crippling. Losing all your gear was devastating and CR could be horrible.
I'd like to see some motivation to NOT die. To me it would make it a better game. I'd be ok with exactly EQ's system, but I'd also be ok with something that makes sure that you don't lose your gear.
Asdar
Vanguard had the answer for that. The corpse shrines that was placed around the world. It gave you a choice, do you want to go back and get your corpse yourself for a minor penalty hit on xp gained or do you want your corpse right away at the shrine with all your gear for a major penalty hit from xp gained.
I like a good stiff death penalty. It gives the game an edge, it changes the way you play and makes it a little more realistic. But, losing gear or levels is too harsh. A death penalty that becomes more severe as you progress in the game is a bad thing; at some point, the risk won't be worth the reward and you will stop playing.
It'd be funny if EQN was like an old-time arcade game and charged you 25 station cash (or whatever $0.25 works out to) to get back up when knocked out. Now that would be annoying -- and yet you wouldn't lose time, no graveyard run, no XP penalty, etc. For those that can't pay, I guess their respawn would take 12 hours.
As someone who played wow for a long time, I can let you know that I quit because it got dumbed down tot he point that there were no rewards for playing well or consequences for playing badly.
When they introduced a full inspect so people could copy your builds, it ruined any competitiveness in PvP particularly but also PvE.
That and easy respecs made the game so dumbed down that you no longer had to work at the game, you could just copy other peoples builds cuz you could inspect them rather than working things out yourself and you could respect at any time.
There were numerous other dumbed down things that made the game basically a game for 6 year olds.
For those of us who like to play adult games where intellect and skill matter, we want consequences and yes that means harsh death penalties as well.
There are a million mmo rpgs for 9 year olds out there, if youa re that despereate to play a casual game where skill and intellect don't matter, just go play wow or wild star or the numerous clones already out there but the tag line for everquest next is 'A life of consequence' so like the everquests before it should be an adult game where there are consequences for smart playing like rewards and consequences for bad playing like bad builds which you cant just rectify by not understanding the game and inspecting someone who does or harsh death penalties.
There is a market for both the 9 year old casual player who wants a generic game with no consequences and the adult player who wants to play a competitive gave which must thus have consequences.
If you are the former, go play wow, guildwars or wildstar but if you want an adult based mmo then hit up everquest next but as a non competitive, casual player don't try to spoil the game for those who go to everquest next specifically for a game based on skill, intellect and consequences.
By the way to the guy who mentioned Diablo3, Ive played that as well. That game is as casual as wow and I say that as someone who loved diablo ever since diablo 1.
The inspect skill also ruins any competitive element of diablo 3 hence its an uncompetitive game. Its not like in Diablo 2 where you had to do corpse runs to pick up your loot from where you died as a harsh death penalty and couldn't respec. It has improvements over d2 sure but a lot of new declines as well such as the includion of a full build and gear inspect skill when inspect should be optional so that you don't have to let players steal your builds or work.
Anyway back on topic, as eq next is billed as a life of consequence and an adult orientated rpg (ie one where intellect/skill matter because consequences are not easily reversible), I support harsh death penalties.
All the adult players who are sick of games where you might as well let a bot just play for you since there will be no rewards or punishments for your actions like in wow, ie a large part of the untapped market have been looking for a mmorpg like that for a long time ever since wow got dumbed down in wotlk and diablo in d3. As a long standing blizzard supporter, im now jumping ship for this reason. Heck, I didn't even buy my diablo 3 because of this reason and don't plan on buying more blizzard games.
While I agree with you on the features you advocate, I invite you to take a look at what EQNext actually looks like so far. If you can look at that and see an adult game then I don't know what to say. The game is being targeted at the least common denominator attention span and availability, as well as younger players.
This thread should be posted on SOE's website for them to see so that they know what their fans want.
As much as I'd like to see some kind of challenge like harsh death penalties this is never going to happen. [mod edit]
I can see the headlines:
"Serial Killers Hunt Down Hundreds of Bad MMO Players"
Nope, penalties will destroy it. I vote pro REMOVA of ALL penalties, just respawn in place and continue to play. All the rest is just one big ANNOYING ANNOYANCE!
As for easy dying: not sure if all, but I really hate to dye. That is biggest penalty. And if I see I will die and can not escape I will always try to bring with me as many as I can.
What about those of us that want a social cooperative game where we adventure together to achieve goals and overcome obstacles? AKA Everquest.
The whole competitive, everyone for themselves, I'm the best attitude that exploded (didn't start) with WoW and has made the genre what it is today is something I do not want at all.
While I get that if you are big into being "the best" you don't want people to copy your build or whatever, but shouldn't there be more to it? Such as how you use the build? The copycat is taking a shortcut, but that doesn't make them any more skilled with the info.
I didn't realize Everquest was for adults (think I was 16-17 when it released). Nor the majority of mmos for that matter. I'm a bit older then some of the younger gamers that appear to have all the intellect and skill, looking at the pro competitive players. Age doesn't seem to help me too much.
I'm all for risk vs reward, challenging content (various levels), and an all around game that pushes players to their limits (cross fingers for Storybricks), but it doesn't have to be faceroll easy mode or dedicate your life to the game to be "good" either. Well designed, EQN could cater to a wide variety of players, because overall, we are a very diverse group.
I never found early EQ or WoW "hard" or to require skill/intellect. Was just a matter being new experiences and trial and error, figuring out the dance/pattern, getting the gear and perfecting it. Sure those with "skill" did it faster/easier, but anyone that could get a decent sized group together and everyone do their part wasn't that crazy hard.
PVP is a different story though. That side of most of these games is an entirely different animal. Being amazing at WoW's arenas didn't have a huge connection to being able to do the hardest PVE content.
I've also never played a game with a harsh death penalty that really mattered. Losing gear, gold, XP, etc is not harsh. It is a time sink and simply requires more play time. Games with Permadeath usually have easy to get ..... so losing it isn't the end of the world. Then there are games like Diablo 3 with Hardcore mode where one death can wipe out quite a lot of hours of investment. I hope to not see to much focus being on forcing players to play more simply because of death, rather the game be entertaining enough to want to do that already.
"Life of consequence" doesn't mean amazing rewards or severe punishments from what I've seen. I look at it more as putting choices into the players hands and allowing them to decide their path. Want to be a SK, go do stuff that helps that path, but it will hurt your chances at being a Paly. Killed a bunch of Halfling children, the adults are probably going to hunt you down. Actions and consequences.
Not, "Crap I didn't pick the correct race, class, diety, build, gear, skill, etc and wasn't able to see into the future, now I'm screwed forever."
The reply to this is simple.
Even without allowing players to steal your work via a fully invasive inspect skill, players will still work together to overcome obstacles because you cant do obstacles by yourself so that argument is void.
The second argument you made is about the copy cat who steals your build, one which he cant make himself because he is not skilled enough, might not be more skilled than you once he steals your work. This is a stupid argument for several reasons.
Firstly, he is probably not as smart as you so cant make your build so him stealing your build is him stealing your advantage, your work and skill for himself by copying. This is like someone who cant get an A on an exam but if he copies your work he will. An example of this is someone who cant do basic maths and put the factors into spreadsheet to maximise his build or someone whos understanding of maths is so bad that they cant even use basic multipliers or someone who has never learnt even basic science and doesn't know how to identify factors for analysis even without a spreadsheet.
Secondly, apart from the fact that he doesn't have the skill to build as well as you but wants to cheat off your work which is wrong, he might be worse at building but might be better at playing which would make you the loser after he steals your work which is unfair. Even if he is still worse than you, the gap between his skill level and yours will seem smaller because he has cheated off your work.
Thirdly, if one person does the work to create a build carefully, it should be up to them to decide who they believe deserves help and who doesn't, their work shouldn't just eb available for even people they dislike or their opponents in game to steal their work.
Next argument.
You seem to be misunderstanding what I mean by for adults. I am talking about the underlying gameplay mechanics not the preface of the world itself. The game is made accessible for kids with the graphics, storyline, non mature content but any game where the building is complex and people cant steal your work or obtain it without your permission is 'for adults.'
A good example of this is wow before WOTLK, before it had a fully invasive inspect feature. I calculated the DPS of my build and this was the highest DPS in multiple guilds till my last guild and could never be matched. I was made class leader etec etc etc but then a fully invasive inspect feature came along and in pvp and pve people could just copy my build and thus dps output without being able to work it out for themselves. Also respeccing prior to WOTLK was exceptionally hard so there were penalties for failure making it more adult.
Another good example of what I mean as adult is dragon age. it is clearly a game marketed for kids but the underlying gameplay is complex to model, you have to be able to calculate how much increses in stats increase effective life and defective damage, combine that with abilities and gear etc.
So what Im saying is any idiot can pick up and play these games but not any idiot can make a great build, they majority of players are middle of the road cannon fodder and then the few great ones emerge as long as their work cant be stolen.
By the way you never found wow hard for this reason because you just intuitively built, you never calculated dps, you never spreadsheet modelled, you never put the work in because you didn't know how. You are the exact type of player who would try to cheat off the back of the work of others. In PvP especially this is a huge detriment to any game but also for any competitive element of PvE.
Also your trial and error method will never result in optimisation, that's merely guessing and it results in big mistakes that you never realise because you don't know what to look for. People like me don't want people like you stealing our work without our permission then trying to beat us in PvP or PvE.
Players should win on their own merit and skill not off the backs of others who consider them competition.
Lastly, you say harsh death penalties are a time sink and that's right. Those time sinks act as a barrier to bad playing just like the lack of a fully invasive inspect acts as a barrier to people trying to copy other peoples builds or an expensive respect skill penalises people for mistakes and acts as a barrier to making too many mistakes.
All these barriers add up, for example without a fully invasive inspect, youw ould have to make someone believe you were worth it before they teach you things you don't understand or alternatively you could still create the same build by yourself but that's because the barrier made you do so. So lets take the example of magic the gathering, you could make the same build but would you know what to look for, would you know how to go about it. Would you figure out that you have to look for hypergeometric distributions and then find out how to do it and then model it on a spreadsheet or would you rather just inspect me, then copy me and cheat.
Lesser players would choose the easy way.
Life of consequence means rewards for good playing and consequences for bad playing. Yes it does mean putting choices in players hands but that means those choices must have consequences. That means no easy respecs, no making builds which don't matter. Every choice in your build must matter, must have a consequence and if you can easily fix it or just copy another, there are no consequences for bad playing.
There should be more consequences and trade offs in ALL aspects of the game as well.. Which armor should I wear? Sure the cloth is lighter and makes me more mobile, and less encumbered, but I can't take damage as easily.. Let me put on some plate armor.. Damn, I'm buffed and ready to tank, but I sure feel encumbered and my dodge percentage just dropped.. I loved when food/drink was required on your person ALL of the time or you became hungry or thirsty and that had consequences to your character.. Do I carry and eat snack size foods, or large meals? Meals lasted longer, but inventory was an issue.. I miss the consequences and trade off of "managing" your character, outside of PURE combat numbers.. I always had friends and guildies seeking me out for my cooking and leather working skills.. I was good for the economy..
Now there is another consequence too.. Crafting.. You want to focus all your time in hack and slash and could give a rats ass about crafting.. FINE.. Go buy your needed items off someone else.. But games today "GIVE" all the hack and slasher players everything thru "loot" drops or vendor purchase.. Grrrr I don't see EQN being a game about "consequences" at all..
This.
The OP or anyone else can, at their own discretion, create their own death penalty, by logging out for a particular period of time, vendor trashing all their gear, deleting and rerolling... the possibilities are endless.
Pretty sure the desire for a harsh death penalty isn't for them; they want it for other players. Whether it's for more satisfaction in PvP griefing, or to get other players to play the way they want them to, I suppose we have our own motivations.
On another point...
I'd have no problem with a developer creating a voluntary DP system in which players who partake will get a bonus of some kind. Tabula Rasa had this toward the end, where you could put up a piece of gear that would be lost if you died. You would get an XP bonus based on the quality of the gear.
However, most game just amp up the difficulty vs. reward side of the equation, rather than risk vs. reward(they are two ENTIRELY different things). Examples are Elite dungeons, CoX difficulty sliders, etc. Basically, better loot for fighting more powerful enemies.
Given that devs have moved more toward difficulty vs. reward, rather than risk vs. reward(reduced or eliminated the latter in many cases), well, we can only speculate as to why. But the truth of the matter is, they have FAR more data with which to make decisions than we armchair devs do.
Please don't make this game fluffy -- it's already been hinted by Disney gfx .. One of the coolest things in the EQ series is that there are places that few dare to go! And those that go there were respected, but others that don't dare feared that place... "WHOA he has gear from xx place!!!!" rather than "oh...that gear... everyone has it..everyone's been there because there's no fear in going there..."
Risk:Reward
---------------------------
Former EQ1 Rallos Zek (PvP)
Ascendant Chronei Immortal of Rallos Zek
(Now @ Prexus)
Exactly. Even some not very harsh, but insanely counterproductive penalties:
They aren't as common anymore, but what can I say about the sheer idiocy of weakness penalties? Especially in dungeons. "Yes, here we are, 3 hours into a raid going after the big boss. TPW! Now we're waiting around for this 30 minute weakness timer to expire, when the only alternative is to leave and have to run this 3 hour raid again later.
Stupid, stupid, stupid. If there's better evidence that past DP's were idiologically(misspelling intended) driven rather than gameplay driven, I don't know of one.
Anyhoo, the devs did have another option, which is to make the boss easier; a choice they often made back in the days when MMO's were still clinging to this notion that these setback DP's just HAD to exist. Or they made them easier in the first place.
Fully agree with Radison. He has completely the right idea there, consequences for all actions either good or bad so that they matter.
No quick fixes for mistakes, no ability to copy anothers work via a fully invasive inspect skill etc.
There are many games in which there are no consequences which as so casual they are almost meaningless. They make up about 90% of mmos soi if you are desperate for a game with no consequences there are many for you to choose from.
However, for all the people that want a deep and serious game with adult gameplay even if it has pg undertones, there is everquest next.
I'm not going to go reread this thread, but is anyone actually in favor of a shallow, unserious, steal all your special builds game? Thread was about death penalties, but seems to have gotten a bit derailed like pretty much every other topic, then again we are all serious, complex, adults that just have to force feed our opinions on others
Actually death penalties is to do with consequences, other parallels were given and then you decided to try to force feed your opinion down other peoples throats not me.
All I said is it should be down to the individual to allow others to inspect their gear and builds and justified why. That's supporting peoples right to choice and opinion not to share their work. You on the other hand want a fully incasive inspect forced on them so that they have no choice, maybe you should learn not to force your opinion on others.
Im cool with that, I just want choices in games to be meaningful which means they need consequences. If there are just a load of quick fixes, there are no consequences and no choices so you might as well give the player the right or best answer everytime instead of pretending to give them choice.
This sums up my feelings on the matter. Death penalty doesn't make a game more challenging, just more tedious and grueling. Personally immersion in a game (aka not wanting to die because it's a natural instinct), annoyance over death, and a sense of defeat and failure upon death are deterrents enough for me. Saying that having no death penalty is like playing with godmode is false. In most singleplayer games you can simply load a save point and retry, but the fact is that just like death in an MMO you have to start over with whatever you were doing and that's already frustrating enough, especially if you were down in a dungeon, or taking part in some drawn out fight.
Additionally with how reliant you are on quests for EXP now in many MMOs it seems like heavy EXP loss wouldn't work well at all. Unlike older games where a lot of EXP was gained by killing mobs, now if you lose EXP you got from doing a quest, how do you get it back? Killing mobs usually gives little to no EXP, and you already finished the quest so you can't get it back that way. You could easily lose EXP to the point that you make it exponentially more difficult to achieve the next level.
Played: DAoC, AC2, WoW, CoH, GW, GW2, WAR, AoC, Champions Online, Rift, Dragon Nest, Vindictus, Warframe, Neverwinter, Dungeon Fighter Online
Currently Playing: Dungeon Fighter Online Global
Waiting for: None