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Character progression withouth leveling
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
What i have learned from WoD is that starting a game from 90 with lots of skills is fun... But all those other 90 levels of comtent actually have become obsolete.. Useless... It would be so good to replay some of the older dungeons or questlines, or explore those areas you have never been to, but the fact that they are lower level and so non challenging for a max level character that it goes to a waste... With 100 levels of game, you step trough levels much to fast to finsih much stuff, and the population and society sits at max level.
now you can levellock while leveling in WoW, but thats not enough, and even mentoring like in EQ2 is not enough as there is not really a reason except for playing storiees to go back to lower levels since also in EQ2 everyone is living the max level game.
Why hasnt anyone created a world withouth levels, with mobs off equall levels? Where people travel around the world exploring and having adventures while collecting new skills and finding new armor, or fighting other players in certain parts of the world
The answer to that is simple, character and gear progression are for most MMO players a main reason to play MMOs. As a reward for doing things, your characters improve, get better, get more skills, better stats, can take on greater challenges.
Now here comes the question, how can you give all these people that feeling of progress, withouth levels? If you know the answer, you can become very rich, ..
(Imagine if all of WoWs pre WoD comtent would be available as level 100 zones, combined with an AA system, that would be close to the perfect gameworld for me... Molten core would have allways been a challenging place.... And they could expand the old zones with new epic stories... That would be so much easier to give monthly content updates, and keep people playing...)
maybe, they could make a game with hidden levels.. That get ballanced and normalised all the time wherever you go, but your armor drops either in the normal world or older dungeons would be on par with your current average gear level.... On top of that there could be a progression game for better gear with instanced dungeons, raidinstaces, worldbosses, scenarios, PvP, that allow you to get newer and better gear, it would be the same progressive endgame so many love.... But all the world would stay challenging all the time...
offcourse i am only using WoW as an example, as it is the game we all know.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
with the exception of Prophecies - GW1 was largely likely that
starting area would take less than 2 hours to get through
and then you were level 20
the vast majority of PVE content in GW1 is created for level 20
in Prophecies, players were also collecting elite skills from named monsters
disclaimer:
I know ANET says that GW1 is not a mmo and is a CORPG
but i played GW1 PVE like a mmo
GW1 has the same instanced outpost mechanics as Dungeons and Dragons Online, Turbines mmo
EQ2 fan sites
I've often thought about this
Imagine if maybe there were no levels but by collecting experience points you were able to purchase skills, or better yet maybe open up special quest with which to gain the skill.
Bottom line is a system that would not leave all the content obsolete.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I Found the skill progression in the game "Project Gorgon" to be amazing! You don't lvl your char directly, you level your skills by doing them! This game doesnt hold your hand and tell you where everything is. It has puzzles to solve, lots of exploration, and a gigantic array of skills. You main char can level up in as many skills as you want to level them up in by doing them. You can even play as one of several beasts < werewolf, spider, pig, deer, and even a Cow, each with there own armor sets! >
This game, projectgorgon.com , is still in pre alpha testing and is open for play to all for free, there is No cash store. TRY IT I know i am glad i did!
You missed thepoint of character progression, sure thedownleveling is great, but there is virtually no skillprogression nor any gearprogression and only minimal story progression at max level.... However with a progressive endgame the downleveling system could also be used for ballancing thehigher armor stats....... Still leaves us withno character or skillprogression
gw1 suffers from the same pain, but atleast there is some skillprogression...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
The reason it hasn't been done is because its not possible.
Games have tried the auto leveling BS and it doesnt work, at all. Oblivion was the first one that came to mind.
People aren't dumb. Whether you're hitting the same skeleton in the same area for 10dmg and its hitting you for 20 dmg, and 20 hours later you're now hitting it for 100dmg and its hitting you for 200dmg is 6 of one half a dozen of the other. Its NOT progression.
For you to progress means you have to get better in some way. Getting shiny new armor skins generally, by most people's standards, is not "better". It might be "cooler", but its not "better".
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
EVE is doing that no leveing thing for 10 years now. There is no such metric as "experience" in that game.
However in contrast to what the OP has said, i think an improved Gw2 system would really fit nice. Downscaling so lower level content is still somewhat challenging and not just run in the park (twitch/action combat helps improve this feeling) and
more dynamic events with more altering states minus TESO's phasing.
I honestly don't know how anybody can possible say this and be serious. I tried redoing the content in GW2 and it was extremely boring, not fun in the slightest. I can only re-read the same book so many times before its boring. I can only watch the same TV show episode so many times before it becomes boring. How is an mmo zone/dungeon/etc any different?
The way to make content fun to do again is to add an element of excitement, that element is traditionally gear, and in my opinion is the right way to incentivize redoing content. Dungeons in particular can also benefit from having random chances at certain bosses spawning in an area, so instead of like in WoW, or most MMO's, where EVERY single time you go into the dungeon, the exact same mobs are in the exact same place, and have the exact same abilities, models, etc, etc, etc.
ARPG's like Grim Dawn, Diablo 3, Path of Exile have this stuff down pat. And it works, people play through the same content literally hundreds of times. Why? Because you never know, next time you walk into a room, it might have a Skeleton Warlord spawned who might drop a really cool useful item you need. And the next time you run it, that room might be empty, but another room down the hall might have the Plasmatic Goo Lord who might drop a different item that you want, etc.
Doesn't anybody find it odd that people will clock thousands of hours into non persistent games like D3, and yet MMO's have trouble keeping people for a few hundred hours?
Clearly they're doing it wrong.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
What is this 2008. We've been over that argument a billion times. Eve has levels, they're called skills. Thats still progression. Just because you gain them through the passage of time versus going out and killing stuff is of no consequence, its still levels.
Someone who starts the game brand new CANT compete, under any circumstance, with someone who has put many years into the game. And thats the way it should be. But, please, stop with the "skill systems aren't level systems" because its been done and done over a million times.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I would recommend you taking a look at the history of role playing games. Go back to the 70s as a great starting place. Then see how games that were not skill based did. I think it would be a great place for you to research the whys.
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As someone already mentioned, Arenanet has already addressed this. In GW1 majority of the game was played at max level. Much of the PvE consisted of following the story campaign. Finding secret places and easter eggs. Acquiring and/or unlocking different skills, upgrades and items.
In GW2, your stats are adjusted to match the content.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
They are called skill points. SP for short.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Gorgon is sort of like this,no levels just classes and skills.There is also no reason to race to some pretend NEW GAME like Blizzard claims with Wow.
There is ONLY one reason Blizzard did that and that was to encourage the sale of their latest xpacs,Square Enix was the first to do that in FFXI and i never approved of it then either.
The problem with progression without levels is that 99% of these games are not progression based they are simply QUEST based.You do not even need levels in a game like Wow,just follow the yellow markers doing all the quests and that is it,there is your game in a nutshell.
If you build a game that you brag about and are confident in,you SHOULD expect people to WANT to play it.However selling instant 90 level is telling people you expect many to NOT like your game,in that case why support it at all?The logic is actually VERY simple,if you don't think i want to play your 1-90 why would i trust the rest of your game?
Really the main reason of levels is it is EASY to show your progress,however it has nothing to do with role playing.It really tells us the level of competence in developers to THINK when creating a role playing game.
What we actually have is just "A GAME" of linear questing and chalking up level numbers, definitely not role playing games.
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Who says it should not be skillbased..... These things are not mutuall exclusive are they?
add a combat system thats skilltree based, and use a type of targetting active blocking and dodging..... If you keep eniugh strategical and tactical Overhead playerskill will be everything..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Its a form of progression that is not leveling. Plain and simple. You can't call skills levels anymore than you can call a car to a camel.
What this type of progressing does is letting you focus on other aspects of the game other than killing XX,XXX,XXX mobs to ding another level or follow then question mark guys to give you quests. And this is not limited to sandbox type of games either.
it is leveling.
instead of illing mob in order to get level, who increase your strength and increase your damage, you research technologies in order to make specific part/skill better.
same thing, different name.
same with gorgon, the secret world and such.
Any MMORPG imply some form of progression... wether you call it experience, skill, alternate advancement, abilities unlock... from the pen and paper D&D to ultima online/meridian59/everquest to the modern MMO market... progression = levels.
without progression you get adventure game like tomb raider, first person shooter ( heck, even those have levels now), or strategy game ( Starcraft 2 and such).
if you gonna put hundred of hour in the same caracter... you expect that caracter to get stronger, not just look different or have access to a large skill of relativly similar abilities.... one can only unlock sidegrade for soo long before he get bored.
( D3 definatly have level.... the obvious kind, as in actual level, the slightly less obvious kind, as in paragon, and the not-so-subtle kind, as in item grinding.)
This guy has explained the concept very well. Building by experience points or action points or ability points as named in different games are all minor fluctuations on the same theme of character building which is the fundamental of rpgs.
Without character building, an rpg is no longer an rpg, its a platformer like tomb raider or a fps like halo.
What you really should have then is a MMO based on "Runequest"/Basic roleplaying then instead of D&D. It was a pen and paper RPG made by a few SCA people who wanted a more realistic system and there your hitpoints don't increase as you play while your skills do. That means you becomes better but fighting something easy still have some risks and you can't outlevel content.
It is funny really, most pen and paper RPGs doesn't actually have levels (Vampire, Shadowrun, Warhammer, Cyberpunk to name a few) but almost all MMOs have them. The few MMOs who don't have levels tend to still have the huge powergap that makes most content obsolete when you played a while.
On a note though do very few levelless pen and paper games have gear progression and there might be a reason to that. It is very hard to make a skill based system with much gear progression.
the HERO system (champions) gave skill point costs to even your gear .. to keep it in balance
EQ2 fan sites
A level system will give you a hitpoint boost when you level up and usually an advantage (like taking less damage) against those that are under you in level.
But yes, masking the levels by calling them something else or allow you to select a few skills besides the usual stuff really still is levels. And many games who call themselves leveless just hide the levels a bit.
What CCP wanted with WoD was not something like that though and you can't really call Eve a levelbased MMO either.
Raising skills and attributes by use is not really something levelbased either, since you can become very strong in certain areas while still being weak in others.
Yeah, a few other systems had similar ideas to balance the character as well. It might work for a PvP based MMO but I have a feeling the PvEers wouldn't like it much.
Never really liked Champions myself for some reason, the basic system felt clunky to me.
i found it cumbersome too
character creation/upgrades were overkill on point costs, GURPS has a similar issue with point costs
EQ2 fan sites
just like my Everquest wizard is strong at magic, but weak at melee? or my WoW warrior strong at melee, but can't heal ( others)?
Aka, one system guide you into a skill tree, while another system let you choose wich skill to pick?... still a skill tree/xperience system.
I do prefer the second one ( picking whatever skill I want)... something like The Secret World... but it's still an experience-based system. The pro of that system is flexibility, creativity, uniqueness of your caracter.... the con would be the possbility of screwing up your caracter and being sub-par