It's not nostalgia, it's the de-evolution of the genre.
Look at it this way. No one is playing on their smart phones and going, "oh gee, I sure do miss the days of rotary phones". At least, not very many.
No one is using their broadband and saying, "I sure miss the golden years of dial up, i really loved when loading a web page took 5 minutes"
No one is climbing into their brand new car and saying, "Man, I miss the days when heat and ac barely worked and I had 3 radio stations that worked or when I had to crank start my car. These new fangled aux audio systems that play pandora or any song I have loaded onto my phone (mp3 player, whatever) are so much crappier."
The genre has gone backwards, period. Wow was ok, appealed to the masses, and made LOTS of $$$. Since then we all know the story, wow clone after wow clone after wow clone and all of them have been pretty close to crap.
We need to look at games like UO, Asheron's Call, Everquest, ya know... the games that got the genre rolling in the first place. And we need to EXPAND upon them. Look at zelda, lets say "A Link to the Past" and look at where it's going now... skyrim. That is the opposite direction of going from Asheron's Call to FFXIV.
We need BIGGER worlds, more OPEN worlds, more QUALITY worlds. We need fully developed games free of most of the bugs. We need games where the gameplay is about being in the world, be it level 10 or level 50, or level 100. Content needs to be accessible and rewarding.
I'm not saying there isn't room for themeparks. As a fan of the more sandboxy type open worlds/seamless thing I fully believe that themepark is the bigger market. But we haven't had ANYTHING even remotely sandboxy-AAA released that wasnt a shit-tastic bug-fest pile of crap in the last 15 years minus a few SUPER niche games.
Novelty fuels nostalgia. Novelty arises with GRANDER experiences. This is why gross candy is so amazing when you're 5 but just gross when you're 30. This is why McDonalds is GREAT as a kid but nothing like a 5 star surf and turf buffet as an adult.
Take the things we love and make the bigger and better and you create novelty and instead of sitting around being all nostalgic you are going to be enjoying the novelty of the moment.
Take the things we love and make the smaller and crappier and you remove any chance of novelty and people sit around going "been there, done that".
Nostalgia can be very dangerous. People tend to look back on games they played 15 years ago and think they were so much better than they actually were. WoW was the first mmorpg that I played, unfortunately, so nostalgia may be the only reason I keep going back to it.
Originally posted by Zarf42 Nostalgia can be very dangerous. People tend to look back on games they played 15 years ago and think they were so much better than they actually were. WoW was the first mmorpg that I played, unfortunately, so nostalgia may be the only reason I keep going back to it.
OR, just maybe, it's a lack of Novelty being created in a Myopic market that's creating the nostalgia in the first place and the real "danger" is the growing stagnation.
As long as technology stays relatively similar and there are new gamers born every minute this trend will continue as a 5 year old can always find the same reskinned 1080p version of doom to be "the greatest thing ever".
If you want to get rid of nostalgia then provide some novelty in the new stuff. IMHO, this will likely come from technological advancements (vr like the rift, or other such similar advancements).
It's not nostalgia, it's the de-evolution of the genre.
Look at it this way. No one is playing on their smart phones and going, "oh gee, I sure do miss the days of rotary phones". At least, not very many.
No one is using their broadband and saying, "I sure miss the golden years of dial up, i really loved when loading a web page took 5 minutes"
No one is climbing into their brand new car and saying, "Man, I miss the days when heat and ac barely worked and I had 3 radio stations that worked or when I had to crank start my car. These new fangled aux audio systems that play pandora or any song I have loaded onto my phone (mp3 player, whatever) are so much crappier."
The genre has gone backwards, period. Wow was ok, appealed to the masses, and made LOTS of $$$. Since then we all know the story, wow clone after wow clone after wow clone and all of them have been pretty close to crap.
We need to look at games like UO, Asheron's Call, Everquest, ya know... the games that got the genre rolling in the first place. And we need to EXPAND upon them. Look at zelda, lets say "A Link to the Past" and look at where it's going now... skyrim. That is the opposite direction of going from Asheron's Call to FFXIV.
We need BIGGER worlds, more OPEN worlds, more QUALITY worlds. We need fully developed games free of most of the bugs. We need games where the gameplay is about being in the world, be it level 10 or level 50, or level 100. Content needs to be accessible and rewarding.
I'm not saying there isn't room for themeparks. As a fan of the more sandboxy type open worlds/seamless thing I fully believe that themepark is the bigger market. But we haven't had ANYTHING even remotely sandboxy-AAA released that wasnt a shit-tastic bug-fest pile of crap in the last 15 years minus a few SUPER niche games.
Novelty fuels nostalgia. Novelty arises with GRANDER experiences. This is why gross candy is so amazing when you're 5 but just gross when you're 30. This is why McDonalds is GREAT as a kid but nothing like a 5 star surf and turf buffet as an adult.
Take the things we love and make the bigger and better and you create novelty and instead of sitting around being all nostalgic you are going to be enjoying the novelty of the moment.
Take the things we love and make the smaller and crappier and you remove any chance of novelty and people sit around going "been there, done that".
I have to completely agree with this and this maybe a more eloquent way of trying to get my previous point across. It's exactly what I was going after. I think anyone who looks back at previous games is looking for the expansion of those games. We're not looking for the same game but games built off of those foundations. Kudos to you Paperbear, exactly what I was going after.
It's really hard to replace the feelings of things that leave a significant impact on you when it was the first of something you tried. FFXI was my first MMO, and I only ever gave it a shot simply because it was a FF game. I only played it for maybe 4 years, but no other MMO has had the lasting impact that game did on me. I thoroughly enjoy playing FFXIV and delving into its story and lore, but it's just not the same compared to the experiences I had in FFXI.
I had my share of gripes and complaints about how things worked in FFXI, but it's that nostalgia factor that makes me look back fondly on it. Could I go back and play it now even if it hadn't changed drastically? Hell no. Life circumstances prevent me from having the necessary time to dump into that kind of game. It's different being a college kid shut in a dorm with no real responsibilities versus having a full time professional job and other hobbies that occupy my time. I simply don't have 8 hours a day to dump into a MMO anymore, and that's pretty much what was required to play anything pre-WoW.
This whole "nostalgia" thing is ridiculous. This isn't your 1st kiss, this is a damned video game. It's not about nostalgia. It's about "They don't make em like they used to". I know that I am sure of this. Why? Because I have almost 2k hrs logged into Skyrim. Skyrim offers nothing that I haven't done before, yet taking the same old mechanics, they provide an experience that I have enjoyed over and over. It's re-playable. Mods improve this experience, but even still, I don't have any that change Bleak Falls Barrow, and yet I've played so new toons so many times, I have lost count. If these MMORPG developers could get off their high horse arrogance, stop listening to wishy-washy fanboys who cream their pants in beta and are gone 60 days after release and start looking at their real target audience and provide the experience these players are looking for then you'd have a game to log into for months if not years.
Of course, it will be smaller budget, won't be geared to try to get 10 Million players, But that's what MMOs were originally founded on anyways. 6 figure populations, across a handful of servers with reasonably outdated graphics. But they were always about the "Meta".
Originally posted by Zarf42 Nostalgia can be very dangerous. People tend to look back on games they played 15 years ago and think they were so much better than they actually were. WoW was the first mmorpg that I played, unfortunately, so nostalgia may be the only reason I keep going back to it.
How is that 'very dangerous'? What if they go back to those games after a break and find out they still love that core philosophy and set of mechanics? Surely then they have only come out ahead?
As I said, I really enjoy playing classic EQ. I have a great time and would choose it over any newer MMORPG if I was ever forced to choose. I have a preference for it's core design philosophy and rules set. I enjoy a community that has tons of people that will happily give their time in game to help others have fun. I enjoy the challenge of the world.
I might have gone back initially driven by old memories of when the genre was more fun to me ('nostalgia'), but when I got there it became a current contemporary experience in the fun it was delivering.
This whole "nostalgia" thing is ridiculous. This isn't your 1st kiss, this is a damned video game. It's not about nostalgia. It's about "They don't make em like they used to".
Bingo, and why the whole "nostalgia" argument falls apart, at least for me.
My first MMORPG was Lineage 1, and after 6 months I decided, this sucks, and started playing DAOC. (one of my all time favorites).
It was a totally different gaming experience, and I spent almost 3 years back in the day playing, only leaving after Mythic f'd it up with "raiding." (a portent of things to come in my future)
Interestingly enough, I spent most of last year playing DAOC on a freeshard that had been more or less set to a circa 2003 rule set and the old magic was back., which dispels in my mind those who say if the old games of yesterday were available now (in their original form) you wouldn't play them.
Obviously not true, at least in the case of me and the 1000 or so folk who played on that server. It's supposed to re-open in 2015, better than ever, and I expect to spend some time there.
So during those early years I got to play Shadowbane, again a really different experience from L1 or DAOC, however problems with performance kept me from enjoying that one long term.
Next came Lineage 2, where I was expecting L1 with better graphics, boy was I wrong, totally different game, and not always for the better, most especially the huge leveling curve that title had, which ultimately proved to be too much for my more casual playing time. (stupid real life) But it was almost totally different than all prior titles, and I enjoyed my 6 months or so there.
Then came WOW, and yes, I had a great time there for about 2 years, enjoying the new quest driven experience, and even took up raiding for the first (and last) time of my life working my way through AQ40 before BC dropped and killed my interest in the game.
So then I went and played LOTRO, and hit my first WOW clone experience, where I really felt I was playing the same game again. Vanguard was in there somewhere, and it was a bit of a different playing experience (probably not to EQ1 players) but had the performance issues been resolved and a better PVP experience developed I might have stuck around.
So all these MMORPG's, and yet, no nostalgia factor yet, all very different, all very enjoyable, (well, except for LOTRO) so there is no way I could ever rediscover the awe from these early titles right? Yet, I found EVE.
Now this was a radically different MMORPG from anything I'd ever tried before and 7 years later I'm back with it on 4 accounts because I've decided there never will be another like it, so stick with what works the best for me.
I have regrets, I think I missed out playing UO, AC1, FFXI, SWG which I suspect would again have offered some radically different playing experiences.
But around 2006 the homogenization of MMO's started, (I call them the Dark Ages) and we are just now starting to break out of the mold that was set by WOW across the landscape.
So no, don't call it nostalgia, those MMORPG's had designs and game play mechanics that were clearly different from more modern titles, and whether or not I'm in a minority in enjoying them then and now, doesn't change the facts and why I and some others don't like the "100's" of new MMO's in the market today.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem isn't nostalgia, it's more about the fact that many players dismiss newer MMO's as sub-par based on the nostagic feelings they have for older games.
My first MMO was SWG and I absolutely fell in love the game and the MMO concept within the first few days of playing it back in 2003.
Some friends and I tried the EMU version a couple of years back and were bored out of our minds within an hour or two.
The wonder and amazement of being online with other players in a persistent world was what made the original MMO's so great.
Other than that, they had very poor mechanics and were overly time consuming. Of course we didn't care at the time because it was just cool to be online with your friends doing stuff.
Originally posted by LazzaroCompletely agree OP, it's the reason I have a really hard time getting into MMO's or if I do that can keep my attention like UO and SWG did.They felt like 'Worlds' where it wasn't static like MMO worlds are today. Hell, you could eliminate the world from 90% of MMO's and it wouldn't matter since it isn't utilized after you hit max level and all it is is instance this instance that.
You are not accounting for players growing up and newness of MMOs wearing off.
There are games today that are more virtual worlds than any gen 1 game - why aren't you playing them?
Because you changed, the newness awe feeling is gone forever.
Like?
Nothing I say can be seen clearly as long as you have those glasses on - so its pointless to even say anything.
If you couild take any good open world modern game *today* and you transport it back through time and show it to gamers back in 1999-2003 - they would drop UO and EQ1, AC, AO, DAoC in a heartbeat.
lol...nice non response....You meant to say none. No current MMO (not including WoW...for me at least. It was a breathing world when I played it. Dunno bout now)
If they made a STALKER MMO, a Fallout MMO, Halflife maybe? THEN...you would have a world. A REAL Elder Scrolls world MMO? Yes please.
But that it what is meant to be a world.
There are 100s of MMOs out there - again if you really were looking for one - you would be doing so, trying lots of games - including smaller indie titles.
Again it seems that you would rather play "all MMOs suck, nothing to play" card than genuinely looking.
I agree with DMKano here.
But I'll also answer your question.
Wildstar is every bit as much a living breathing world as any of the 'original' mmos.
It has all of the same ingredients, plus more. Big zones, consistent, fun lore, chat functionality, guild functionality, combat, grind for top tier, group only content, etc. Name one feature Wildstar does NOT have that earlier mmo's had. It has every single feature the original games had. Ok, harsh death penalty - I'll give you that one. But is that what made EQ great? You may say it is an element but not the hinge everything else rested on.
What made EQ great?
Good friends, great guilds, raiding, questing, exploring, lore, challenge, learning all the nuances of the game, finding all the nooks and crannies. They still exist - but you simply won't put the effort in like you did when mmo gaming was new. Because, you can't rewind history and go back and experience the exact same thing you have already experienced and have it feel new and exciting. You cannot unlearn what you have learned.
But what is the common cry against Wildstar or any other modern mmo?
"Been there, done that"
One can't have their cake and eat it too.
One cannot on the one hand claim, "No game has what I had in the original games, and they need to put it back" and then whine that all the new mmo's are boring because, "it brings nothing new to the table".
This is the paradox of nostalgia.
You want exactly what you had originally, but you want something new you have never experienced before.
Those two things are mutually exclusive.
You either want what you used to have or you want something different.
If you want what you used to have, don't get bored with the games that emulate past games.
All mmo worlds are dead and don't breath.
The players breathed life into those worlds. The game didn't find friends for you in EQ. The game didn't create a group through chat for you. The game didn't put together a raid or a guild or explore the world for you. You did that. You. You made the game great. You. Make your own fate in the games you play. You.
In original EQ, a warrior had auto attack, taunt, kick and bash. That's it. EQ wasn't great. You were.
Name one other area of life where reality has met your nostalgic feelings. Here's some anecdotal evidence. My generation feels that Star Wars, Empire and Jedi were by far the best. We grew up on them. The last 3 (I, II and III) don't even come close. In fact, many of us abhor them with all of our being because they simply do not recreate the feelings we had when we saw the originals. My nephews first saw I, II and III. They grew up on them, it was their first taste of the Star Wars universe. They saw the originals as late teens and hate them - "They look so fake", "there isn't any action", "the light saber fights are lame". My jaw drops when I hear this and I'm pretty sure those statements make baby Jesus cry. We are nostalgic for the 'first time feel' not for our 2nd experience.
I remember my first kiss. I remember the first time I had sex. I remember driving a car for the first time. I kissed my wife today - but I doubt I'm taking that kiss to my grave, even though it was in every single conceivable way better than my first. Why? Because I've kissed my wife 1000s of times. It isn't a new experience for me. I'm not nostalgic for 'the time I drove to work yesterday' - but somehow am nostalgic for the first time I drove my 1978 AMC concord with 3 on the fly. Explain that.
Do I go onto automobile forums ranting about how the 1978 AMC concord has never been recreated and no car has made me feel that way since and how car manufacturers owe me that same feeling I had at the age of 17? Cuz back then you had to work. I remember struggling with the clutch and the 3 on the fly. The seat belts didn't quite work. Sometimes I had to push start it. I remember the smell of the vinyl seats. I remember the cracked and faded dash and vague odor of cigarettes from the guy who sold it to me - and it was awesome. Why can't a modern car company give me that feeling back? I mean I truly had to get to know my car back then.
See it is silly. Yet we do it with games all the time.
That is the crux of what nostalgia is all about. It's about the way we felt when it was a new experience for us. It has nothing to do with the way it was. Everything to do with how I felt. Games do not create my feelings. I do. I will not relinquish my right as a human to be in charge of my own feelings. I don't passively let binary code determine my happiness or dispair.
Developers can never make a game where you experience an mmo for the first time again. You did that yourself already. Be proud, you did it yourself - a computer did not create your emotion.
I guarantee you that no mmo will ever release that will make you as stoked as your first. Ever. Ever. Ever.
It's not nostalgia, it's the de-evolution of the genre.
Look at it this way. No one is playing on their smart phones and going, "oh gee, I sure do miss the days of rotary phones". At least, not very many.
No one is using their broadband and saying, "I sure miss the golden years of dial up, i really loved when loading a web page took 5 minutes"
No one is climbing into their brand new car and saying, "Man, I miss the days when heat and ac barely worked and I had 3 radio stations that worked or when I had to crank start my car. These new fangled aux audio systems that play pandora or any song I have loaded onto my phone (mp3 player, whatever) are so much crappier."
The genre has gone backwards, period. Wow was ok, appealed to the masses, and made LOTS of $$$. Since then we all know the story, wow clone after wow clone after wow clone and all of them have been pretty close to crap.
We need to look at games like UO, Asheron's Call, Everquest, ya know... the games that got the genre rolling in the first place. And we need to EXPAND upon them. Look at zelda, lets say "A Link to the Past" and look at where it's going now... skyrim. That is the opposite direction of going from Asheron's Call to FFXIV.
We need BIGGER worlds, more OPEN worlds, more QUALITY worlds. We need fully developed games free of most of the bugs. We need games where the gameplay is about being in the world, be it level 10 or level 50, or level 100. Content needs to be accessible and rewarding.
I'm not saying there isn't room for themeparks. As a fan of the more sandboxy type open worlds/seamless thing I fully believe that themepark is the bigger market. But we haven't had ANYTHING even remotely sandboxy-AAA released that wasnt a shit-tastic bug-fest pile of crap in the last 15 years minus a few SUPER niche games.
Novelty fuels nostalgia. Novelty arises with GRANDER experiences. This is why gross candy is so amazing when you're 5 but just gross when you're 30. This is why McDonalds is GREAT as a kid but nothing like a 5 star surf and turf buffet as an adult.
Take the things we love and make the bigger and better and you create novelty and instead of sitting around being all nostalgic you are going to be enjoying the novelty of the moment.
Take the things we love and make the smaller and crappier and you remove any chance of novelty and people sit around going "been there, done that".
I have to completely agree with this and this maybe a more eloquent way of trying to get my previous point across. It's exactly what I was going after. I think anyone who looks back at previous games is looking for the expansion of those games. We're not looking for the same game but games built off of those foundations. Kudos to you Paperbear, exactly what I was going after.
Honestly people would argue that the sun is not a star if they had a chance.
a dictionary definition of nostalgia is 'a sentimental longing or wistful affection for a period in the past'.
this is pretty common in mmorpg's - or used to be until dimwit devs decided some mmos should be buckets of mini games or redesigned worlds on a whim without a flake of awareness about emotional attachment.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by LazzaroCompletely agree OP, it's the reason I have a really hard time getting into MMO's or if I do that can keep my attention like UO and SWG did.They felt like 'Worlds' where it wasn't static like MMO worlds are today. Hell, you could eliminate the world from 90% of MMO's and it wouldn't matter since it isn't utilized after you hit max level and all it is is instance this instance that.
You are not accounting for players growing up and newness of MMOs wearing off.
There are games today that are more virtual worlds than any gen 1 game - why aren't you playing them?
Because you changed, the newness awe feeling is gone forever.
Like?
Nothing I say can be seen clearly as long as you have those glasses on - so its pointless to even say anything.
If you couild take any good open world modern game *today* and you transport it back through time and show it to gamers back in 1999-2003 - they would drop UO and EQ1, AC, AO, DAoC in a heartbeat.
lol...nice non response....You meant to say none. No current MMO (not including WoW...for me at least. It was a breathing world when I played it. Dunno bout now)
If they made a STALKER MMO, a Fallout MMO, Halflife maybe? THEN...you would have a world. A REAL Elder Scrolls world MMO? Yes please.
But that it what is meant to be a world.
There are 100s of MMOs out there - again if you really were looking for one - you would be doing so, trying lots of games - including smaller indie titles.
Again it seems that you would rather play "all MMOs suck, nothing to play" card than genuinely looking.
I agree with DMKano here.
But I'll also answer your question.
Wildstar is every bit as much a living breathing world as any of the 'original' mmos.
It has all of the same ingredients, plus more. Big zones, consistent, fun lore, chat functionality, guild functionality, combat, grind for top tier, group only content, etc. Name one feature Wildstar does NOT have that earlier mmo's had. It has every single feature the original games had. Ok, harsh death penalty - I'll give you that one. But is that what made EQ great? You may say it is an element but not the hinge everything else rested on.
What made EQ great?
Good friends, great guilds, raiding, questing, exploring, lore, challenge, learning all the nuances of the game, finding all the nooks and crannies. They still exist - but you simply won't put the effort in like you did when mmo gaming was new. Because, you can't rewind history and go back and experience the exact same thing you have already experienced and have it feel new and exciting. You cannot unlearn what you have learned.
But what is the common cry against Wildstar or any other modern mmo?
"Been there, done that"
One can't have their cake and eat it too.
One cannot on the one hand claim, "No game has what I had in the original games, and they need to put it back" and then whine that all the new mmo's are boring because, "it brings nothing new to the table".
This is the paradox of nostalgia.
You want exactly what you had originally, but you want something new you have never experienced before.
Those two things are mutually exclusive.
You either want what you used to have or you want something different.
If you want what you used to have, don't get bored with the games that emulate past games.
All mmo worlds are dead and don't breath.
The players breathed life into those worlds. The game didn't find friends for you in EQ. The game didn't create a group through chat for you. The game didn't put together a raid or a guild or explore the world for you. You did that. You. You made the game great. You. Make your own fate in the games you play. You.
In original EQ, a warrior had auto attack, taunt, kick and bash. That's it. EQ wasn't great. You were.
Name one other area of life where reality has met your nostalgic feelings. Here's some anecdotal evidence. My generation feels that Star Wars, Empire and Jedi were by far the best. We grew up on them. The last 3 (I, II and III) don't even come close. In fact, many of us abhor them with all of our being because they simply do not recreate the feelings we had when we saw the originals. My nephews first saw I, II and III. They grew up on them, it was their first taste of the Star Wars universe. They saw the originals as late teens and hate them - "They look so fake", "there isn't any action", "the light saber fights are lame". My jaw drops when I hear this and I'm pretty sure those statements make baby Jesus cry. We are nostalgic for the 'first time feel' not for our 2nd experience.
I remember my first kiss. I remember the first time I had sex. I remember driving a car for the first time. I kissed my wife today - but I doubt I'm taking that kiss to my grave, even though it was in every single conceivable way better than my first. Why? Because I've kissed my wife 1000s of times. It isn't a new experience for me. I'm not nostalgic for 'the time I drove to work yesterday' - but somehow am nostalgic for the first time I drove my 1978 AMC concord with 3 on the fly. Explain that.
Do I go onto automobile forums ranting about how the 1978 AMC concord has never been recreated and no car has made me feel that way since and how car manufacturers owe me that same feeling I had at the age of 17? Cuz back then you had to work. I remember struggling with the clutch and the 3 on the fly. The seat belts didn't quite work. Sometimes I had to push start it. I remember the smell of the vinyl seats. I remember the cracked and faded dash and vague odor of cigarettes from the guy who sold it to me - and it was awesome. Why can't a modern car company give me that feeling back? I mean I truly had to get to know my car back then.
See it is silly. Yet we do it with games all the time.
That is the crux of what nostalgia is all about. It's about the way we felt when it was a new experience for us. It has nothing to do with the way it was. Everything to do with how I felt. Games do not create my feelings. I do. I will not relinquish my right as a human to be in charge of my own feelings. I don't passively let binary code determine my happiness or dispair.
Developers can never make a game where you experience an mmo for the first time again. You did that yourself already. Be proud, you did it yourself - a computer did not create your emotion.
I guarantee you that no mmo will ever release that will make you as stoked as your first. Ever. Ever. Ever.
Ever.
This guy knows what he's talking about!!!!!!!!!
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
Originally posted by LazzaroCompletely agree OP, it's the reason I have a really hard time getting into MMO's or if I do that can keep my attention like UO and SWG did.They felt like 'Worlds' where it wasn't static like MMO worlds are today. Hell, you could eliminate the world from 90% of MMO's and it wouldn't matter since it isn't utilized after you hit max level and all it is is instance this instance that.
You are not accounting for players growing up and newness of MMOs wearing off.
There are games today that are more virtual worlds than any gen 1 game - why aren't you playing them?
Because you changed, the newness awe feeling is gone forever.
Like?
Nothing I say can be seen clearly as long as you have those glasses on - so its pointless to even say anything.
If you couild take any good open world modern game *today* and you transport it back through time and show it to gamers back in 1999-2003 - they would drop UO and EQ1, AC, AO, DAoC in a heartbeat.
lol...nice non response....You meant to say none. No current MMO (not including WoW...for me at least. It was a breathing world when I played it. Dunno bout now)
If they made a STALKER MMO, a Fallout MMO, Halflife maybe? THEN...you would have a world. A REAL Elder Scrolls world MMO? Yes please.
But that it what is meant to be a world.
There are 100s of MMOs out there - again if you really were looking for one - you would be doing so, trying lots of games - including smaller indie titles.
Again it seems that you would rather play "all MMOs suck, nothing to play" card than genuinely looking.
I agree with DMKano here.
But I'll also answer your question.
Wildstar is every bit as much a living breathing world as any of the 'original' mmos.
It has all of the same ingredients, plus more. Big zones, consistent, fun lore, chat functionality, guild functionality, combat, grind for top tier, group only content, etc. Name one feature Wildstar does NOT have that earlier mmo's had. It has every single feature the original games had. Ok, harsh death penalty - I'll give you that one. But is that what made EQ great? You may say it is an element but not the hinge everything else rested on.
What made EQ great?
Good friends, great guilds, raiding, questing, exploring, lore, challenge, learning all the nuances of the game, finding all the nooks and crannies. They still exist - but you simply won't put the effort in like you did when mmo gaming was new. Because, you can't rewind history and go back and experience the exact same thing you have already experienced and have it feel new and exciting. You cannot unlearn what you have learned.
But what is the common cry against Wildstar or any other modern mmo?
"Been there, done that"
One can't have their cake and eat it too.
One cannot on the one hand claim, "No game has what I had in the original games, and they need to put it back" and then whine that all the new mmo's are boring because, "it brings nothing new to the table".
This is the paradox of nostalgia.
You want exactly what you had originally, but you want something new you have never experienced before.
Those two things are mutually exclusive.
You either want what you used to have or you want something different.
If you want what you used to have, don't get bored with the games that emulate past games.
All mmo worlds are dead and don't breath.
The players breathed life into those worlds. The game didn't find friends for you in EQ. The game didn't create a group through chat for you. The game didn't put together a raid or a guild or explore the world for you. You did that. You. You made the game great. You. Make your own fate in the games you play. You.
In original EQ, a warrior had auto attack, taunt, kick and bash. That's it. EQ wasn't great. You were.
Name one other area of life where reality has met your nostalgic feelings. Here's some anecdotal evidence. My generation feels that Star Wars, Empire and Jedi were by far the best. We grew up on them. The last 3 (I, II and III) don't even come close. In fact, many of us abhor them with all of our being because they simply do not recreate the feelings we had when we saw the originals. My nephews first saw I, II and III. They grew up on them, it was their first taste of the Star Wars universe. They saw the originals as late teens and hate them - "They look so fake", "there isn't any action", "the light saber fights are lame". My jaw drops when I hear this and I'm pretty sure those statements make baby Jesus cry. We are nostalgic for the 'first time feel' not for our 2nd experience.
I remember my first kiss. I remember the first time I had sex. I remember driving a car for the first time. I kissed my wife today - but I doubt I'm taking that kiss to my grave, even though it was in every single conceivable way better than my first. Why? Because I've kissed my wife 1000s of times. It isn't a new experience for me. I'm not nostalgic for 'the time I drove to work yesterday' - but somehow am nostalgic for the first time I drove my 1978 AMC concord with 3 on the fly. Explain that.
Do I go onto automobile forums ranting about how the 1978 AMC concord has never been recreated and no car has made me feel that way since and how car manufacturers owe me that same feeling I had at the age of 17? Cuz back then you had to work. I remember struggling with the clutch and the 3 on the fly. The seat belts didn't quite work. Sometimes I had to push start it. I remember the smell of the vinyl seats. I remember the cracked and faded dash and vague odor of cigarettes from the guy who sold it to me - and it was awesome. Why can't a modern car company give me that feeling back? I mean I truly had to get to know my car back then.
See it is silly. Yet we do it with games all the time.
That is the crux of what nostalgia is all about. It's about the way we felt when it was a new experience for us. It has nothing to do with the way it was. Everything to do with how I felt. Games do not create my feelings. I do. I will not relinquish my right as a human to be in charge of my own feelings. I don't passively let binary code determine my happiness or dispair.
Developers can never make a game where you experience an mmo for the first time again. You did that yourself already. Be proud, you did it yourself - a computer did not create your emotion.
I guarantee you that no mmo will ever release that will make you as stoked as your first. Ever. Ever. Ever.
Ever.
This guy knows what he's talking about!!!!!!!!!
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
The poster you quoted is making a sweeping generalization. It simply doesn't fit my experience. In my early MMOs I was drawn to the meta-gaming in them. (long term character and economic development) This generation of MMOs is based too heavily on combat as their source of stimulation. There is a HUGE difference. and it is noticeable. And as such, I have to disagree with the whole nostalgia argument. I know for a fact, even today, that I'd play a game for a long time if it offers an experience I want. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
Originally posted by GeezerGamert. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
A better question is, why do some feel something like Skyrim offers a longer term experience than your typical Themepark, when it basically offers the same thing? Why can they sit around and essentially do nothing there, yet not in an MMO when there are actually other players around, and in most cases more game-play options?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by GeezerGamert. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
A better question is, why do some feel something like Skyrim offers a longer term experience than your typical Themepark, when it basically offers the same thing? Why can they sit around and essentially do nothing there, yet not in an MMO when there are actually other players around, and in most cases more game-play options?
Originally posted by Meowhead One thing I think people don't take into account is that it's even harder to have a sense of wonder and mystery in games with the proliferation of things like google, gamefaqs, let's play and the like.Before you had to talk with people in games to really learn how to play. Now everything can be found out online, by yourself. People calculate and minmax everything, to ridiculous degrees.Just that one factor alone has changed how people interact with games in general, not just MMOs.
Have to agree here, Meow. The information and experience can now be more easily sought outside of the games/MMOs.
For me, I avoid "Let's Play videos" and "Walkthrough Blogs" like a plague in order to try to keep that sense of wonder and mystery
One thing I will search for, that seems more present in games these days, is bugs and how to get around them.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
The poster you quoted is making a sweeping generalization. It simply doesn't fit my experience. In my early MMOs I was drawn to the meta-gaming in them. (long term character and economic development) This generation of MMOs is based too heavily on combat as their source of stimulation. There is a HUGE difference. and it is noticeable. And as such, I have to disagree with the whole nostalgia argument. I know for a fact, even today, that I'd play a game for a long time if it offers an experience I want. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
Yeah, there's a HUGE difference. I feel they have taken out all the inconveniences and annoyances from those older games. Don't get me long, I loved those games back in the day. It was like crack, I couldn't stay off of them more than a few hours a day but If I had to choose, I would never go back to those old and archaic systems. They were not fun. Just a bunch of annoyances and the reason I kept playing was because there was nothing out there like it. It was awesome to play online with a bunch of people at the time. The feeling was great. But it's getting old, the awe of playing with thousands of players online is not there anymore. Right now, I'm perfectly happy having the Devs create content for me to tackle patch after patch expansion after expansion until I get bored. The main thing is finding like minded players to play with you and any game, regardless if it's old or new, sandbox or themepark, etc. will be fun. IMO
Originally posted by GeezerGamert. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
A better question is, why do some feel something like Skyrim offers a longer term experience than your typical Themepark, when it basically offers the same thing? Why can they sit around and essentially do nothing there, yet not in an MMO when there are actually other players around, and in most cases more game-play options?
As I have been saying. New MMOs have lost their Meta Gaming. The complex and layered experiences. It's all about making combat more fun now.
It's not nostalgia, it's the de-evolution of the genre.
Look at it this way. No one is playing on their smart phones and going, "oh gee, I sure do miss the days of rotary phones". At least, not very many.
No one is using their broadband and saying, "I sure miss the golden years of dial up, i really loved when loading a web page took 5 minutes"
No one is climbing into their brand new car and saying, "Man, I miss the days when heat and ac barely worked and I had 3 radio stations that worked or when I had to crank start my car. These new fangled aux audio systems that play pandora or any song I have loaded onto my phone (mp3 player, whatever) are so much crappier."
The genre has gone backwards, period. Wow was ok, appealed to the masses, and made LOTS of $$$. Since then we all know the story, wow clone after wow clone after wow clone and all of them have been pretty close to crap.
We need to look at games like UO, Asheron's Call, Everquest, ya know... the games that got the genre rolling in the first place. And we need to EXPAND upon them. Look at zelda, lets say "A Link to the Past" and look at where it's going now... skyrim. That is the opposite direction of going from Asheron's Call to FFXIV.
We need BIGGER worlds, more OPEN worlds, more QUALITY worlds. We need fully developed games free of most of the bugs. We need games where the gameplay is about being in the world, be it level 10 or level 50, or level 100. Content needs to be accessible and rewarding.
I'm not saying there isn't room for themeparks. As a fan of the more sandboxy type open worlds/seamless thing I fully believe that themepark is the bigger market. But we haven't had ANYTHING even remotely sandboxy-AAA released that wasnt a shit-tastic bug-fest pile of crap in the last 15 years minus a few SUPER niche games.
Novelty fuels nostalgia. Novelty arises with GRANDER experiences. This is why gross candy is so amazing when you're 5 but just gross when you're 30. This is why McDonalds is GREAT as a kid but nothing like a 5 star surf and turf buffet as an adult.
Take the things we love and make the bigger and better and you create novelty and instead of sitting around being all nostalgic you are going to be enjoying the novelty of the moment.
Take the things we love and make the smaller and crappier and you remove any chance of novelty and people sit around going "been there, done that".
I have to completely agree with this and this maybe a more eloquent way of trying to get my previous point across. It's exactly what I was going after. I think anyone who looks back at previous games is looking for the expansion of those games. We're not looking for the same game but games built off of those foundations. Kudos to you Paperbear, exactly what I was going after.
So wrong in so many ways!!!!!
Care to elaborate?
Oh, and back this up with your understanding of Novelty and Nostalgia from a psychological perspective as well as your understanding of the MMO markets and trends since MUDDS.
Also, a nice list of MMORPGS that have done UO, EQ, WOW, and AC better than those games did it.
And then after that explain to me why I don't get all nostalgic for the original smash brothers or mario kart when I play the new wii u versions and explain exactly why the novelty of the moment of playing a newer better version of those games isn't making me nostalgic for the older ones.
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
The poster you quoted is making a sweeping generalization. It simply doesn't fit my experience. In my early MMOs I was drawn to the meta-gaming in them. (long term character and economic development) This generation of MMOs is based too heavily on combat as their source of stimulation. There is a HUGE difference. and it is noticeable. And as such, I have to disagree with the whole nostalgia argument. I know for a fact, even today, that I'd play a game for a long time if it offers an experience I want. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
Yeah, there's a HUGE difference. I feel they have taken out all the inconveniences and annoyances from those older games. Don't get me long, I loved those games back in the day. It was like crack, I couldn't stay off of them more than a few hours a day but If I had to choose, I would never go back to those old and archaic systems. They were not fun. Just a bunch of annoyances and the reason I kept playing was because there was nothing out there like it. It was awesome to play online with a bunch of people at the time. The feeling was great. But it's getting old, the awe of playing with thousands of players online is not there anymore. Right now, I'm perfectly happy having the Devs create content for me to tackle patch after patch expansion after expansion until I get bored. The main thing is finding like minded players to play with you and any game, regardless if it's old or new, sandbox or themepark, etc. will be fun. IMO
I don't agree with any of your other posts but the last sentence of this one I do agree with. I don't go back and play old MMO's because of "rose-tinted glasses" as a lot of posters here want to try and assert. I go back because the gameplay is what I enjoy. However what keeps me playing games is the people that I play with.
In one of my previous posts I explained how most of this year I have been playing EQ1 with only kunark and was having a BLAST of a time. Absolutely loved going back and grouping with like minded people. It's absolutely what made me spend 8-10 months playing the game for sure. If I could have made the same times for raids to continue to play with those folks, I would still be there for sure. Instead I'm playing wow now with RL friends. It's fun because of the people for sure. I still enjoy wow but if it wasn't for the people I would still be in EQ after a break.
In the end, I think nostalgia has an affect but again, it's not the driving force. Many of us who still go back to those older MMO's aren't going back to walk to the zone line that we died at 10 times before or to take a tour of places we had great PVP battles. We go back because we like the gameplay and have no other alternative for that style of gameplay as well as finding new friends that like the same type of games that we do. People definitely make games, new or old, more fun to be sure which is why for the most part if it wasn't for friends I wouldn't be playing wow, as the garrisons separate you from people even more. I think the crux of the problem is also, the older games offer more social gameplay while new mmo's it's a lot more solo/antisocial. I can't count how many times I've gone into instances in multiple games, never have anyone respond to me in chat, run through instance and then people disband right off the bat. People definitely make it more fun and especially in the games that make socializing a large part of gameplay..... like older MMO's.
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
The poster you quoted is making a sweeping generalization. It simply doesn't fit my experience. In my early MMOs I was drawn to the meta-gaming in them. (long term character and economic development) This generation of MMOs is based too heavily on combat as their source of stimulation. There is a HUGE difference. and it is noticeable. And as such, I have to disagree with the whole nostalgia argument. I know for a fact, even today, that I'd play a game for a long time if it offers an experience I want. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
Yeah, there's a HUGE difference. I feel they have taken out all the inconveniences and annoyances from those older games. Don't get me long, I loved those games back in the day. It was like crack, I couldn't stay off of them more than a few hours a day but If I had to choose, I would never go back to those old and archaic systems. They were not fun. Just a bunch of annoyances and the reason I kept playing was because there was nothing out there like it. It was awesome to play online with a bunch of people at the time. The feeling was great. But it's getting old, the awe of playing with thousands of players online is not there anymore. Right now, I'm perfectly happy having the Devs create content for me to tackle patch after patch expansion after expansion until I get bored. The main thing is finding like minded players to play with you and any game, regardless if it's old or new, sandbox or themepark, etc. will be fun. IMO
I don't agree with any of your other posts but the last sentence of this one I do agree with. I don't go back and play old MMO's because of "rose-tinted glasses" as a lot of posters here want to try and assert. I go back because the gameplay is what I enjoy. However what keeps me playing games is the people that I play with.
In one of my previous posts I explained how most of this year I have been playing EQ1 with only kunark and was having a BLAST of a time. Absolutely loved going back and grouping with like minded people. It's absolutely what made me spend 8-10 months playing the game for sure. If I could have made the same times for raids to continue to play with those folks, I would still be there for sure. Instead I'm playing wow now with RL friends. It's fun because of the people for sure. I still enjoy wow but if it wasn't for the people I would still be in EQ after a break.
In the end, I think nostalgia has an affect but again, it's not the driving force. Many of us who still go back to those older MMO's aren't going back to walk to the zone line that we died at 10 times before or to take a tour of places we had great PVP battles. We go back because we like the gameplay and have no other alternative for that style of gameplay as well as finding new friends that like the same type of games that we do. People definitely make games, new or old, more fun to be sure which is why for the most part if it wasn't for friends I wouldn't be playing wow, as the garrisons separate you from people even more. I think the crux of the problem is also, the older games offer more social gameplay while new mmo's it's a lot more solo/antisocial. I can't count how many times I've gone into instances in multiple games, never have anyone respond to me in chat, run through instance and then people disband right off the bat. People definitely make it more fun and especially in the games that make socializing a large part of gameplay..... like older MMO's.
This is why i'm so sick of the Rose colored glasses / nostalgia arguments. When games come out that are equivalent to or better than the old ones (with enough similar features to be comparable) THEN and ONLY THEN can you say that nostalgia is getting in the way.
The old games are popular with a certain crowd for a lot of different reasons and for some people I'm sure that nostalgia is a huge factor. However, for pretty much everyone I know we go back to those older games because nothing else compares or does it even on par with those games, let alone better.
Give me a reason to enjoy the new games and I will. Give me a reskinned crappier version of the old games and I'm not gonna want to play it. It's not nostalgia, it's crap game development.
It's not nostalgia, it's the de-evolution of the genre.
Look at it this way. No one is playing on their smart phones and going, "oh gee, I sure do miss the days of rotary phones". At least, not very many.
No one is using their broadband and saying, "I sure miss the golden years of dial up, i really loved when loading a web page took 5 minutes"
No one is climbing into their brand new car and saying, "Man, I miss the days when heat and ac barely worked and I had 3 radio stations that worked or when I had to crank start my car. These new fangled aux audio systems that play pandora or any song I have loaded onto my phone (mp3 player, whatever) are so much crappier."
The genre has gone backwards, period. Wow was ok, appealed to the masses, and made LOTS of $$$. Since then we all know the story, wow clone after wow clone after wow clone and all of them have been pretty close to crap.
We need to look at games like UO, Asheron's Call, Everquest, ya know... the games that got the genre rolling in the first place. And we need to EXPAND upon them. Look at zelda, lets say "A Link to the Past" and look at where it's going now... skyrim. That is the opposite direction of going from Asheron's Call to FFXIV.
We need BIGGER worlds, more OPEN worlds, more QUALITY worlds. We need fully developed games free of most of the bugs. We need games where the gameplay is about being in the world, be it level 10 or level 50, or level 100. Content needs to be accessible and rewarding.
I'm not saying there isn't room for themeparks. As a fan of the more sandboxy type open worlds/seamless thing I fully believe that themepark is the bigger market. But we haven't had ANYTHING even remotely sandboxy-AAA released that wasnt a shit-tastic bug-fest pile of crap in the last 15 years minus a few SUPER niche games.
Novelty fuels nostalgia. Novelty arises with GRANDER experiences. This is why gross candy is so amazing when you're 5 but just gross when you're 30. This is why McDonalds is GREAT as a kid but nothing like a 5 star surf and turf buffet as an adult.
Take the things we love and make the bigger and better and you create novelty and instead of sitting around being all nostalgic you are going to be enjoying the novelty of the moment.
Take the things we love and make the smaller and crappier and you remove any chance of novelty and people sit around going "been there, done that".
I have to completely agree with this and this maybe a more eloquent way of trying to get my previous point across. It's exactly what I was going after. I think anyone who looks back at previous games is looking for the expansion of those games. We're not looking for the same game but games built off of those foundations. Kudos to you Paperbear, exactly what I was going after.
So wrong in so many ways!!!!!
Care to elaborate?
Oh, and back this up with your understanding of Novelty and Nostalgia from a psychological perspective as well as your understanding of the MMO markets and trends since MUDDS.
Also, a nice list of MMORPGS that have done UO, EQ, WOW, and AC better than those games did it.
And then after that explain to me why I don't get all nostalgic for the original smash brothers or mario kart when I play the new wii u versions and explain exactly why the novelty of the moment of playing a newer better version of those games isn't making me nostalgic for the older ones.
You talking about WE need. WE don't need anything. Speak for yourself, that's why you're wrong in so many ways. This is entertainment. This is done in every genre. "Music back then was so much better." "These new movies suck compared to movies of the past." I could go on and on. Some of you are doing the same about these videos games. You CLING on to the old and never let it go and it hinders your enjoyment of the new. To be perfectly honest, I've done the same thing for the past few years until I just decided to let it go and just enjoy them and the people I play with. Now, i'm having some of the best times ever playing these newer MMORPGs. To each their own but those old games weren't that great, they were just the only ones there at the time and I can't emphazie enough, THE GENRE WAS NEW. ALMOST EVERYTHING GETS OLD AFTER A WHILE. Especially entertainment. Now we have many choices, you guys just choose to complain instead of enjoying the many choices that are out there.
Comments
It's not nostalgia, it's the de-evolution of the genre.
Look at it this way. No one is playing on their smart phones and going, "oh gee, I sure do miss the days of rotary phones". At least, not very many.
No one is using their broadband and saying, "I sure miss the golden years of dial up, i really loved when loading a web page took 5 minutes"
No one is climbing into their brand new car and saying, "Man, I miss the days when heat and ac barely worked and I had 3 radio stations that worked or when I had to crank start my car. These new fangled aux audio systems that play pandora or any song I have loaded onto my phone (mp3 player, whatever) are so much crappier."
The genre has gone backwards, period. Wow was ok, appealed to the masses, and made LOTS of $$$. Since then we all know the story, wow clone after wow clone after wow clone and all of them have been pretty close to crap.
We need to look at games like UO, Asheron's Call, Everquest, ya know... the games that got the genre rolling in the first place. And we need to EXPAND upon them. Look at zelda, lets say "A Link to the Past" and look at where it's going now... skyrim. That is the opposite direction of going from Asheron's Call to FFXIV.
We need BIGGER worlds, more OPEN worlds, more QUALITY worlds. We need fully developed games free of most of the bugs. We need games where the gameplay is about being in the world, be it level 10 or level 50, or level 100. Content needs to be accessible and rewarding.
I'm not saying there isn't room for themeparks. As a fan of the more sandboxy type open worlds/seamless thing I fully believe that themepark is the bigger market. But we haven't had ANYTHING even remotely sandboxy-AAA released that wasnt a shit-tastic bug-fest pile of crap in the last 15 years minus a few SUPER niche games.
Novelty fuels nostalgia. Novelty arises with GRANDER experiences. This is why gross candy is so amazing when you're 5 but just gross when you're 30. This is why McDonalds is GREAT as a kid but nothing like a 5 star surf and turf buffet as an adult.
Take the things we love and make the bigger and better and you create novelty and instead of sitting around being all nostalgic you are going to be enjoying the novelty of the moment.
Take the things we love and make the smaller and crappier and you remove any chance of novelty and people sit around going "been there, done that".
OR, just maybe, it's a lack of Novelty being created in a Myopic market that's creating the nostalgia in the first place and the real "danger" is the growing stagnation.
As long as technology stays relatively similar and there are new gamers born every minute this trend will continue as a 5 year old can always find the same reskinned 1080p version of doom to be "the greatest thing ever".
If you want to get rid of nostalgia then provide some novelty in the new stuff. IMHO, this will likely come from technological advancements (vr like the rift, or other such similar advancements).
I have to completely agree with this and this maybe a more eloquent way of trying to get my previous point across. It's exactly what I was going after. I think anyone who looks back at previous games is looking for the expansion of those games. We're not looking for the same game but games built off of those foundations. Kudos to you Paperbear, exactly what I was going after.
It's really hard to replace the feelings of things that leave a significant impact on you when it was the first of something you tried. FFXI was my first MMO, and I only ever gave it a shot simply because it was a FF game. I only played it for maybe 4 years, but no other MMO has had the lasting impact that game did on me. I thoroughly enjoy playing FFXIV and delving into its story and lore, but it's just not the same compared to the experiences I had in FFXI.
I had my share of gripes and complaints about how things worked in FFXI, but it's that nostalgia factor that makes me look back fondly on it. Could I go back and play it now even if it hadn't changed drastically? Hell no. Life circumstances prevent me from having the necessary time to dump into that kind of game. It's different being a college kid shut in a dorm with no real responsibilities versus having a full time professional job and other hobbies that occupy my time. I simply don't have 8 hours a day to dump into a MMO anymore, and that's pretty much what was required to play anything pre-WoW.
This whole "nostalgia" thing is ridiculous. This isn't your 1st kiss, this is a damned video game. It's not about nostalgia. It's about "They don't make em like they used to". I know that I am sure of this. Why? Because I have almost 2k hrs logged into Skyrim. Skyrim offers nothing that I haven't done before, yet taking the same old mechanics, they provide an experience that I have enjoyed over and over. It's re-playable. Mods improve this experience, but even still, I don't have any that change Bleak Falls Barrow, and yet I've played so new toons so many times, I have lost count. If these MMORPG developers could get off their high horse arrogance, stop listening to wishy-washy fanboys who cream their pants in beta and are gone 60 days after release and start looking at their real target audience and provide the experience these players are looking for then you'd have a game to log into for months if not years.
Of course, it will be smaller budget, won't be geared to try to get 10 Million players, But that's what MMOs were originally founded on anyways. 6 figure populations, across a handful of servers with reasonably outdated graphics. But they were always about the "Meta".
How is that 'very dangerous'? What if they go back to those games after a break and find out they still love that core philosophy and set of mechanics? Surely then they have only come out ahead?
As I said, I really enjoy playing classic EQ. I have a great time and would choose it over any newer MMORPG if I was ever forced to choose. I have a preference for it's core design philosophy and rules set. I enjoy a community that has tons of people that will happily give their time in game to help others have fun. I enjoy the challenge of the world.
I might have gone back initially driven by old memories of when the genre was more fun to me ('nostalgia'), but when I got there it became a current contemporary experience in the fun it was delivering.
Bingo, and why the whole "nostalgia" argument falls apart, at least for me.
My first MMORPG was Lineage 1, and after 6 months I decided, this sucks, and started playing DAOC. (one of my all time favorites).
It was a totally different gaming experience, and I spent almost 3 years back in the day playing, only leaving after Mythic f'd it up with "raiding." (a portent of things to come in my future)
Interestingly enough, I spent most of last year playing DAOC on a freeshard that had been more or less set to a circa 2003 rule set and the old magic was back., which dispels in my mind those who say if the old games of yesterday were available now (in their original form) you wouldn't play them.
Obviously not true, at least in the case of me and the 1000 or so folk who played on that server. It's supposed to re-open in 2015, better than ever, and I expect to spend some time there.
So during those early years I got to play Shadowbane, again a really different experience from L1 or DAOC, however problems with performance kept me from enjoying that one long term.
Next came Lineage 2, where I was expecting L1 with better graphics, boy was I wrong, totally different game, and not always for the better, most especially the huge leveling curve that title had, which ultimately proved to be too much for my more casual playing time. (stupid real life) But it was almost totally different than all prior titles, and I enjoyed my 6 months or so there.
Then came WOW, and yes, I had a great time there for about 2 years, enjoying the new quest driven experience, and even took up raiding for the first (and last) time of my life working my way through AQ40 before BC dropped and killed my interest in the game.
So then I went and played LOTRO, and hit my first WOW clone experience, where I really felt I was playing the same game again. Vanguard was in there somewhere, and it was a bit of a different playing experience (probably not to EQ1 players) but had the performance issues been resolved and a better PVP experience developed I might have stuck around.
So all these MMORPG's, and yet, no nostalgia factor yet, all very different, all very enjoyable, (well, except for LOTRO) so there is no way I could ever rediscover the awe from these early titles right? Yet, I found EVE.
Now this was a radically different MMORPG from anything I'd ever tried before and 7 years later I'm back with it on 4 accounts because I've decided there never will be another like it, so stick with what works the best for me.
I have regrets, I think I missed out playing UO, AC1, FFXI, SWG which I suspect would again have offered some radically different playing experiences.
But around 2006 the homogenization of MMO's started, (I call them the Dark Ages) and we are just now starting to break out of the mold that was set by WOW across the landscape.
So no, don't call it nostalgia, those MMORPG's had designs and game play mechanics that were clearly different from more modern titles, and whether or not I'm in a minority in enjoying them then and now, doesn't change the facts and why I and some others don't like the "100's" of new MMO's in the market today.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem isn't nostalgia, it's more about the fact that many players dismiss newer MMO's as sub-par based on the nostagic feelings they have for older games.
My first MMO was SWG and I absolutely fell in love the game and the MMO concept within the first few days of playing it back in 2003.
Some friends and I tried the EMU version a couple of years back and were bored out of our minds within an hour or two.
The wonder and amazement of being online with other players in a persistent world was what made the original MMO's so great.
Other than that, they had very poor mechanics and were overly time consuming. Of course we didn't care at the time because it was just cool to be online with your friends doing stuff.
This guy knows what he's talking about!!!!!!!!!
So wrong in so many ways!!!!!
a dictionary definition of nostalgia is 'a sentimental longing or wistful affection for a period in the past'.
this is pretty common in mmorpg's - or used to be until dimwit devs decided some mmos should be buckets of mini games or redesigned worlds on a whim without a flake of awareness about emotional attachment.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
The poster you quoted is making a sweeping generalization. It simply doesn't fit my experience. In my early MMOs I was drawn to the meta-gaming in them. (long term character and economic development) This generation of MMOs is based too heavily on combat as their source of stimulation. There is a HUGE difference. and it is noticeable. And as such, I have to disagree with the whole nostalgia argument. I know for a fact, even today, that I'd play a game for a long time if it offers an experience I want. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
A better question is, why do some feel something like Skyrim offers a longer term experience than your typical Themepark, when it basically offers the same thing? Why can they sit around and essentially do nothing there, yet not in an MMO when there are actually other players around, and in most cases more game-play options?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This!!!
For me, I avoid "Let's Play videos" and "Walkthrough Blogs" like a plague in order to try to keep that sense of wonder and mystery
One thing I will search for, that seems more present in games these days, is bugs and how to get around them.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yeah, there's a HUGE difference. I feel they have taken out all the inconveniences and annoyances from those older games. Don't get me long, I loved those games back in the day. It was like crack, I couldn't stay off of them more than a few hours a day but If I had to choose, I would never go back to those old and archaic systems. They were not fun. Just a bunch of annoyances and the reason I kept playing was because there was nothing out there like it. It was awesome to play online with a bunch of people at the time. The feeling was great. But it's getting old, the awe of playing with thousands of players online is not there anymore. Right now, I'm perfectly happy having the Devs create content for me to tackle patch after patch expansion after expansion until I get bored. The main thing is finding like minded players to play with you and any game, regardless if it's old or new, sandbox or themepark, etc. will be fun. IMO
As I have been saying. New MMOs have lost their Meta Gaming. The complex and layered experiences. It's all about making combat more fun now.
Care to elaborate?
Oh, and back this up with your understanding of Novelty and Nostalgia from a psychological perspective as well as your understanding of the MMO markets and trends since MUDDS.
Also, a nice list of MMORPGS that have done UO, EQ, WOW, and AC better than those games did it.
And then after that explain to me why I don't get all nostalgic for the original smash brothers or mario kart when I play the new wii u versions and explain exactly why the novelty of the moment of playing a newer better version of those games isn't making me nostalgic for the older ones.
I don't agree with any of your other posts but the last sentence of this one I do agree with. I don't go back and play old MMO's because of "rose-tinted glasses" as a lot of posters here want to try and assert. I go back because the gameplay is what I enjoy. However what keeps me playing games is the people that I play with.
In one of my previous posts I explained how most of this year I have been playing EQ1 with only kunark and was having a BLAST of a time. Absolutely loved going back and grouping with like minded people. It's absolutely what made me spend 8-10 months playing the game for sure. If I could have made the same times for raids to continue to play with those folks, I would still be there for sure. Instead I'm playing wow now with RL friends. It's fun because of the people for sure. I still enjoy wow but if it wasn't for the people I would still be in EQ after a break.
In the end, I think nostalgia has an affect but again, it's not the driving force. Many of us who still go back to those older MMO's aren't going back to walk to the zone line that we died at 10 times before or to take a tour of places we had great PVP battles. We go back because we like the gameplay and have no other alternative for that style of gameplay as well as finding new friends that like the same type of games that we do. People definitely make games, new or old, more fun to be sure which is why for the most part if it wasn't for friends I wouldn't be playing wow, as the garrisons separate you from people even more. I think the crux of the problem is also, the older games offer more social gameplay while new mmo's it's a lot more solo/antisocial. I can't count how many times I've gone into instances in multiple games, never have anyone respond to me in chat, run through instance and then people disband right off the bat. People definitely make it more fun and especially in the games that make socializing a large part of gameplay..... like older MMO's.
This is why i'm so sick of the Rose colored glasses / nostalgia arguments. When games come out that are equivalent to or better than the old ones (with enough similar features to be comparable) THEN and ONLY THEN can you say that nostalgia is getting in the way.
The old games are popular with a certain crowd for a lot of different reasons and for some people I'm sure that nostalgia is a huge factor. However, for pretty much everyone I know we go back to those older games because nothing else compares or does it even on par with those games, let alone better.
Give me a reason to enjoy the new games and I will. Give me a reskinned crappier version of the old games and I'm not gonna want to play it. It's not nostalgia, it's crap game development.
You talking about WE need. WE don't need anything. Speak for yourself, that's why you're wrong in so many ways. This is entertainment. This is done in every genre. "Music back then was so much better." "These new movies suck compared to movies of the past." I could go on and on. Some of you are doing the same about these videos games. You CLING on to the old and never let it go and it hinders your enjoyment of the new. To be perfectly honest, I've done the same thing for the past few years until I just decided to let it go and just enjoy them and the people I play with. Now, i'm having some of the best times ever playing these newer MMORPGs. To each their own but those old games weren't that great, they were just the only ones there at the time and I can't emphazie enough, THE GENRE WAS NEW. ALMOST EVERYTHING GETS OLD AFTER A WHILE. Especially entertainment. Now we have many choices, you guys just choose to complain instead of enjoying the many choices that are out there.