WoW is not the issue... Other companies trying to recreate WoW is the issue.
What I am saying is, prior to WoW MMO games were very niche, in fact I would bet that EQ at it's peak probably had 80 - 100k players, I would bet the same is true for UO. WoW comes along and a perfect storm of an upturn in broadband, PC's dropping in price, more females getting interested in gaming, and the fact that WoW was a solid game and appealed to people of all ages made WoW the behemoth it is.
WoW was what the masses wanted, their 12 million subs proved that and the fact that after 10 years they still have around 10 million subs solidifies it. Don't be upset with blizzard for their success, be upset with all these other companies for trying to be the "next" WoW.
There are plenty of games out there that are niche games that are nothing like WoW. They are just that niche games which is exactly what EQ, UO, Shadowbane, etc were, except no one knew any better because MMO were a new concept.
This is why i'm so sick of the Rose colored glasses / nostalgia arguments. When games come out that are equivalent to or better than the old ones (with enough similar features to be comparable) THEN and ONLY THEN can you say that nostalgia is getting in the way.
The old games are popular with a certain crowd for a lot of different reasons and for some people I'm sure that nostalgia is a huge factor. However, for pretty much everyone I know we go back to those older games because nothing else compares or does it even on par with those games, let alone better.
Give me a reason to enjoy the new games and I will. Give me a reskinned crappier version of the old games and I'm not gonna want to play it. It's not nostalgia, it's crap game development.
For a game like WoW, with X years in the making + 10 years of content development, refinement and polishing there's not a chance in hell any game just out of the oven could ever compete straight out. MMOs are constantly refining themselves and more often than not the sheer number of features that set it apart are things that can only be achieved by years of hard work and having spent years on the one game as a developer, learning how variables work and accumulating knowledge. You don't simply catch up instantly in an environment like that.
If we're talking about games older than WoW then it is merely a matter of not understanding that whatever valuable features old MMOs have, new MMOs simply have more. The genre is always moving forward, and that movement has meant some oldschool MMO features have had to go. It is the survival of the most valuable features and old MMOs simply have suffered a lot of natural selection.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
The poster you quoted is making a sweeping generalization. It simply doesn't fit my experience. In my early MMOs I was drawn to the meta-gaming in them. (long term character and economic development) This generation of MMOs is based too heavily on combat as their source of stimulation. There is a HUGE difference. and it is noticeable. And as such, I have to disagree with the whole nostalgia argument. I know for a fact, even today, that I'd play a game for a long time if it offers an experience I want. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
Yeah, there's a HUGE difference. I feel they have taken out all the inconveniences and annoyances from those older games. Don't get me long, I loved those games back in the day. It was like crack, I couldn't stay off of them more than a few hours a day but If I had to choose, I would never go back to those old and archaic systems. They were not fun. Just a bunch of annoyances and the reason I kept playing was because there was nothing out there like it. It was awesome to play online with a bunch of people at the time. The feeling was great. But it's getting old, the awe of playing with thousands of players online is not there anymore. Right now, I'm perfectly happy having the Devs create content for me to tackle patch after patch expansion after expansion until I get bored. The main thing is finding like minded players to play with you and any game, regardless if it's old or new, sandbox or themepark, etc. will be fun. IMO
I don't agree with any of your other posts but the last sentence of this one I do agree with. I don't go back and play old MMO's because of "rose-tinted glasses" as a lot of posters here want to try and assert. I go back because the gameplay is what I enjoy. However what keeps me playing games is the people that I play with.
In one of my previous posts I explained how most of this year I have been playing EQ1 with only kunark and was having a BLAST of a time. Absolutely loved going back and grouping with like minded people. It's absolutely what made me spend 8-10 months playing the game for sure. If I could have made the same times for raids to continue to play with those folks, I would still be there for sure. Instead I'm playing wow now with RL friends. It's fun because of the people for sure. I still enjoy wow but if it wasn't for the people I would still be in EQ after a break.
In the end, I think nostalgia has an affect but again, it's not the driving force. Many of us who still go back to those older MMO's aren't going back to walk to the zone line that we died at 10 times before or to take a tour of places we had great PVP battles. We go back because we like the gameplay and have no other alternative for that style of gameplay as well as finding new friends that like the same type of games that we do. People definitely make games, new or old, more fun to be sure which is why for the most part if it wasn't for friends I wouldn't be playing wow, as the garrisons separate you from people even more. I think the crux of the problem is also, the older games offer more social gameplay while new mmo's it's a lot more solo/antisocial. I can't count how many times I've gone into instances in multiple games, never have anyone respond to me in chat, run through instance and then people disband right off the bat. People definitely make it more fun and especially in the games that make socializing a large part of gameplay..... like older MMO's.
It looks like it's not gameplay that you guys are missing but the glorified chat rooms because of all the downtime you have in those games because the gameplay certainly wasn't that great.
You talking about WE need. WE don't need anything. Speak for yourself, that's why you're wrong in so many ways. This is entertainment. This is done in every genre. "Music back then was so much better." "These new movies suck compared to movies of the past." I could go on and on. Some of you are doing the same about these videos games. You CLING on to the old and never let it go and it hinders your enjoyment of the new. To be perfectly honest, I've done the same thing for the past few years until I just decided to let it go and just enjoy them and the people I play with. Now, i'm having some of the best times ever playing these newer MMORPGs. To each their own but those old games weren't that great, they were just the only ones there at the time and I can't emphazie enough, THE GENRE WAS NEW. ALMOST EVERYTHING GETS OLD AFTER A WHILE. Especially entertainment. Now we have many choices, you guys just choose to complain instead of enjoying the many choices that are out there.
This ^
Something a lot of people overlook is the fact that perspective matters. Whenever you approach anything with a fresh set of eyes, it's going to seem like a different experience than when you're comparing something to a million different things. And that's where we're at today. MMOs are no longer treated like a new experience, a new game to explore. Heck, I can say the same for most games.
We treat them as a list of features, a list of comparisons to make and weigh to see how they match up to our own expectations. And that's the key word. We now have expectations. We really didn't when this genre was new. And that changes things drastically.
Because none of the older games really had any set standard, they naturally seemed better when we enjoyed them. We loved the 'newness', and learned to like (or at least tolerate the flaws). Like fighting over mob tags, dealing w/ camping spots, or corpse campers, mob trains, etc. Stuff most people would never put up with in today's market.
Back with UO,EQ, DAOC, SWG, PS, EVE and even WoW from a period of the late 97 - 04, it really was the golden age of the genre. Each MMO was vastly different from the other because no set standard was made yet. There was this strive for innovation of evolution and it was about developers building their dream.
Curious, to list WoW with these other games and then claiming these were all "vastly different".
Now it is big corps who just want to emulate WoW and wont fund development unless the game looks exactly like it.
Everyone assumes that since WoW still has millions of people if not playing at least paying that Blizz must have done something right, which of course was to harvest the popular parts of previous games and stitch them together into the homunculus that is WoW. They further assume Blizz is continuing to do the right thing though really, WoW is still doing the same thing, grabbing popular chunks from other games and is otherwise just riding on inertia and.., wait for it: nostalgia. People have their level 9,000 orange paladins that they worked on for a decade now, that they do not want to abandon, and maybe, just maybe this new expac will bring back the feeling everyone had during the first few months of vanilla WoW.
Games that do innovate may strike gold in one or two facets, though if the rest of the game doesn't hold up to it, they are still labelled as "WoW clones" by the hordes. Once the next release cycle for WoW rolls around, Blizz will incorporate the shiny new pieces they heard everyone likes, and henceforth it will be known that WoW did feature X first and last and always and everyone else is just a clone.
Why should companies invest in new ideas when this is not rewarded by the players? Why should Blizz stop phoning it in when people still throw money at them for it?
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
The poster you quoted is making a sweeping generalization. It simply doesn't fit my experience. In my early MMOs I was drawn to the meta-gaming in them. (long term character and economic development) This generation of MMOs is based too heavily on combat as their source of stimulation. There is a HUGE difference. and it is noticeable. And as such, I have to disagree with the whole nostalgia argument. I know for a fact, even today, that I'd play a game for a long time if it offers an experience I want. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
Yeah, there's a HUGE difference. I feel they have taken out all the inconveniences and annoyances from those older games. Don't get me long, I loved those games back in the day. It was like crack, I couldn't stay off of them more than a few hours a day but If I had to choose, I would never go back to those old and archaic systems. They were not fun. Just a bunch of annoyances and the reason I kept playing was because there was nothing out there like it. It was awesome to play online with a bunch of people at the time. The feeling was great. But it's getting old, the awe of playing with thousands of players online is not there anymore. Right now, I'm perfectly happy having the Devs create content for me to tackle patch after patch expansion after expansion until I get bored. The main thing is finding like minded players to play with you and any game, regardless if it's old or new, sandbox or themepark, etc. will be fun. IMO
I don't agree with any of your other posts but the last sentence of this one I do agree with. I don't go back and play old MMO's because of "rose-tinted glasses" as a lot of posters here want to try and assert. I go back because the gameplay is what I enjoy. However what keeps me playing games is the people that I play with.
In one of my previous posts I explained how most of this year I have been playing EQ1 with only kunark and was having a BLAST of a time. Absolutely loved going back and grouping with like minded people. It's absolutely what made me spend 8-10 months playing the game for sure. If I could have made the same times for raids to continue to play with those folks, I would still be there for sure. Instead I'm playing wow now with RL friends. It's fun because of the people for sure. I still enjoy wow but if it wasn't for the people I would still be in EQ after a break.
In the end, I think nostalgia has an affect but again, it's not the driving force. Many of us who still go back to those older MMO's aren't going back to walk to the zone line that we died at 10 times before or to take a tour of places we had great PVP battles. We go back because we like the gameplay and have no other alternative for that style of gameplay as well as finding new friends that like the same type of games that we do. People definitely make games, new or old, more fun to be sure which is why for the most part if it wasn't for friends I wouldn't be playing wow, as the garrisons separate you from people even more. I think the crux of the problem is also, the older games offer more social gameplay while new mmo's it's a lot more solo/antisocial. I can't count how many times I've gone into instances in multiple games, never have anyone respond to me in chat, run through instance and then people disband right off the bat. People definitely make it more fun and especially in the games that make socializing a large part of gameplay..... like older MMO's.
It looks like it's not gameplay that you guys are missing but the glorified chat rooms because of all the downtime you have in those games because the gameplay certainly wasn't that great.
Completely disagree. It was part of the reason we liked them so much. The combat wasn't the best for sure, but the combination of slow combat and needing to socialize and a couple other systems gave us the whole package. I think another poster got it partially right, in that some of the systems just weren't for the mainstream. Harsh death penalty, no hand holding, these kinda things some people couldn't wrap their heads around why they're important.
Maybe it's the later generations have a better sense of imagination or something, I don't know but overall even if all that's the case, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be able to get "spiritual successors" to these games. There is still a demographic that is interested in games designed in this fashion, with improvements for sure. Time will tell if someone will make one even if they're not gonna get the 10 million subs. The main point being, there is value there and its not some glasses or nostalgia that makes us want games like this, it's gameplay. Even if that gameplay doesn't make sense to the majority of gamers.
Everyone assumes that since WoW still has millions of people if not playing at least paying that Blizz must have done something right, which of course was to harvest the popular parts of previous games and stitch them together into the homunculus that is WoW. They further assume Blizz is continuing to do the right thing though really, WoW is still doing the same thing, grabbing popular chunks from other games and is otherwise just riding on inertia and.., wait for it: nostalgia. People have their level 9,000 orange paladins that they worked on for a decade now, that they do not want to abandon, and maybe, just maybe this new expac will bring back the feeling everyone had during the first few months of vanilla WoW.
Games that do innovate may strike gold in one or two facets, though if the rest of the game doesn't hold up to it, they are still labelled as "WoW clones" by the hordes. Once the next release cycle for WoW rolls around, Blizz will incorporate the shiny new pieces they heard everyone likes, and henceforth it will be known that WoW did feature X first and last and always and everyone else is just a clone.
Why should companies invest in new ideas when this is not rewarded by the players? Why should Blizz stop phoning it in when people still throw money at them for it?
The point that you are missing is that once WoW decides to adopt a feature, they do it right. For example housing, if you look at the Garrison feature it is huge and robust and game all within itself. This is also one of the reasons that FFXIV is largely successful, they do what they do well.
The issue with most other games is they 1/2 ass features that they implement. Look at the arena in AA or BGs in Wildstar, they are atrocious. If you are going to create or add a feature it has to be implemented correctly or it drives people away.
Everyone assumes that since WoW still has millions of people if not playing at least paying that Blizz must have done something right, which of course was to harvest the popular parts of previous games and stitch them together into the homunculus that is WoW. They further assume Blizz is continuing to do the right thing though really, WoW is still doing the same thing, grabbing popular chunks from other games and is otherwise just riding on inertia and.., wait for it: nostalgia. People have their level 9,000 orange paladins that they worked on for a decade now, that they do not want to abandon, and maybe, just maybe this new expac will bring back the feeling everyone had during the first few months of vanilla WoW.
Games that do innovate may strike gold in one or two facets, though if the rest of the game doesn't hold up to it, they are still labelled as "WoW clones" by the hordes. Once the next release cycle for WoW rolls around, Blizz will incorporate the shiny new pieces they heard everyone likes, and henceforth it will be known that WoW did feature X first and last and always and everyone else is just a clone.
Why should companies invest in new ideas when this is not rewarded by the players? Why should Blizz stop phoning it in when people still throw money at them for it?
The point that you are missing is that once WoW decides to adopt a feature, they do it right. For example housing, if you look at the Garrison feature it is huge and robust and game all within itself. This is also one of the reasons that FFXIV is largely successful, they do what they do well.
The issue with most other games is they 1/2 ass features that they implement. Look at the arena in AA or BGs in Wildstar, they are atrocious. If you are going to create or add a feature it has to be implemented correctly or it drives people away.
What you're overlooking is that the reason Blizzard is able to do this so well, is because they don't need to do the trial and error required to come up with an original idea.
Almost all of their efforts can go into polishing and implementation. They don't need to worry about whether or not something works, because it's already been done before.
It makes good business sense, but is a horrible model if you are looking for new ideas within a genre. It's one of the reasons why Blizzard is now dipping into other genres. They've cherry picked most of the good ideas within MMORPGs that they can put into their own game. The other areas that we've seen innovation have been in other forms of MMOs (shooters, sci-fi, sports, etc.).
Now they're dipping into the worlds of CCGs, shooters, and MOBAs, where there is a plethora of ideas to steal. And thanks to their loyal fanbase and established IPs, they can actually get away with doing so.
My favorite MMO wasn't my 1st. But it was the best designed.
My favorite wasn't neither but I bet the genre was pretty new at the time your favorite MMORPG came out. It's not always the first time. It's the beginning. The newness. It could be short lived for some or it could be longer.
The poster you quoted is making a sweeping generalization. It simply doesn't fit my experience. In my early MMOs I was drawn to the meta-gaming in them. (long term character and economic development) This generation of MMOs is based too heavily on combat as their source of stimulation. There is a HUGE difference. and it is noticeable. And as such, I have to disagree with the whole nostalgia argument. I know for a fact, even today, that I'd play a game for a long time if it offers an experience I want. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
Yeah, there's a HUGE difference. I feel they have taken out all the inconveniences and annoyances from those older games. Don't get me long, I loved those games back in the day. It was like crack, I couldn't stay off of them more than a few hours a day but If I had to choose, I would never go back to those old and archaic systems. They were not fun. Just a bunch of annoyances and the reason I kept playing was because there was nothing out there like it. It was awesome to play online with a bunch of people at the time. The feeling was great. But it's getting old, the awe of playing with thousands of players online is not there anymore. Right now, I'm perfectly happy having the Devs create content for me to tackle patch after patch expansion after expansion until I get bored. The main thing is finding like minded players to play with you and any game, regardless if it's old or new, sandbox or themepark, etc. will be fun. IMO
I don't agree with any of your other posts but the last sentence of this one I do agree with. I don't go back and play old MMO's because of "rose-tinted glasses" as a lot of posters here want to try and assert. I go back because the gameplay is what I enjoy. However what keeps me playing games is the people that I play with.
In one of my previous posts I explained how most of this year I have been playing EQ1 with only kunark and was having a BLAST of a time. Absolutely loved going back and grouping with like minded people. It's absolutely what made me spend 8-10 months playing the game for sure. If I could have made the same times for raids to continue to play with those folks, I would still be there for sure. Instead I'm playing wow now with RL friends. It's fun because of the people for sure. I still enjoy wow but if it wasn't for the people I would still be in EQ after a break.
In the end, I think nostalgia has an affect but again, it's not the driving force. Many of us who still go back to those older MMO's aren't going back to walk to the zone line that we died at 10 times before or to take a tour of places we had great PVP battles. We go back because we like the gameplay and have no other alternative for that style of gameplay as well as finding new friends that like the same type of games that we do. People definitely make games, new or old, more fun to be sure which is why for the most part if it wasn't for friends I wouldn't be playing wow, as the garrisons separate you from people even more. I think the crux of the problem is also, the older games offer more social gameplay while new mmo's it's a lot more solo/antisocial. I can't count how many times I've gone into instances in multiple games, never have anyone respond to me in chat, run through instance and then people disband right off the bat. People definitely make it more fun and especially in the games that make socializing a large part of gameplay..... like older MMO's.
It looks like it's not gameplay that you guys are missing but the glorified chat rooms because of all the downtime you have in those games because the gameplay certainly wasn't that great.
It's not nostalgia, it's the de-evolution of the genre.
Look at it this way. No one is playing on their smart phones and going, "oh gee, I sure do miss the days of rotary phones". At least, not very many.
No one is using their broadband and saying, "I sure miss the golden years of dial up, i really loved when loading a web page took 5 minutes"
No one is climbing into their brand new car and saying, "Man, I miss the days when heat and ac barely worked and I had 3 radio stations that worked or when I had to crank start my car. These new fangled aux audio systems that play pandora or any song I have loaded onto my phone (mp3 player, whatever) are so much crappier."
The genre has gone backwards, period. Wow was ok, appealed to the masses, and made LOTS of $$$. Since then we all know the story, wow clone after wow clone after wow clone and all of them have been pretty close to crap.
We need to look at games like UO, Asheron's Call, Everquest, ya know... the games that got the genre rolling in the first place. And we need to EXPAND upon them. Look at zelda, lets say "A Link to the Past" and look at where it's going now... skyrim. That is the opposite direction of going from Asheron's Call to FFXIV.
We need BIGGER worlds, more OPEN worlds, more QUALITY worlds. We need fully developed games free of most of the bugs. We need games where the gameplay is about being in the world, be it level 10 or level 50, or level 100. Content needs to be accessible and rewarding.
I'm not saying there isn't room for themeparks. As a fan of the more sandboxy type open worlds/seamless thing I fully believe that themepark is the bigger market. But we haven't had ANYTHING even remotely sandboxy-AAA released that wasnt a shit-tastic bug-fest pile of crap in the last 15 years minus a few SUPER niche games.
Novelty fuels nostalgia. Novelty arises with GRANDER experiences. This is why gross candy is so amazing when you're 5 but just gross when you're 30. This is why McDonalds is GREAT as a kid but nothing like a 5 star surf and turf buffet as an adult.
Take the things we love and make the bigger and better and you create novelty and instead of sitting around being all nostalgic you are going to be enjoying the novelty of the moment.
Take the things we love and make the smaller and crappier and you remove any chance of novelty and people sit around going "been there, done that".
I have to completely agree with this and this maybe a more eloquent way of trying to get my previous point across. It's exactly what I was going after. I think anyone who looks back at previous games is looking for the expansion of those games. We're not looking for the same game but games built off of those foundations. Kudos to you Paperbear, exactly what I was going after.
So wrong in so many ways!!!!!
Care to elaborate?
Oh, and back this up with your understanding of Novelty and Nostalgia from a psychological perspective as well as your understanding of the MMO markets and trends since MUDDS.
Also, a nice list of MMORPGS that have done UO, EQ, WOW, and AC better than those games did it.
And then after that explain to me why I don't get all nostalgic for the original smash brothers or mario kart when I play the new wii u versions and explain exactly why the novelty of the moment of playing a newer better version of those games isn't making me nostalgic for the older ones.
You talking about WE need. WE don't need anything. Speak for yourself, that's why you're wrong in so many ways. This is entertainment. This is done in every genre. "Music back then was so much better." "These new movies suck compared to movies of the past." I could go on and on. Some of you are doing the same about these videos games. You CLING on to the old and never let it go and it hinders your enjoyment of the new. To be perfectly honest, I've done the same thing for the past few years until I just decided to let it go and just enjoy them and the people I play with. Now, i'm having some of the best times ever playing these newer MMORPGs. To each their own but those old games weren't that great, they were just the only ones there at the time and I can't emphazie enough, THE GENRE WAS NEW. ALMOST EVERYTHING GETS OLD AFTER A WHILE. Especially entertainment. Now we have many choices, you guys just choose to complain instead of enjoying the many choices that are out there.
A) The term "we" in arguments such as this one typically only include the people who are clamoring for such things. I even made an excerpt to point out that some people will prefer themeparks. Those games are great for them. The "we" doesn't include YOU, it includes the ones of us on the OTHER side of the fence.
You keep arguing the same old rehashed argument that I absolutely destroyed in my first post. The people that my argument supports are the people that aren't sitting around like old farts saying "back in my day" but rather the people that want to see the good things that existed back in the day revisited and revamped.
Do I want Asheron's call? Hell NO! and that is ABSOLUTELY my "nostalgia" mmo.
Do I want a seemless open world with randomly generated loot, meaningful death penalties and pvp, and completely open ended classless character progression and advancement that would basically be an "Asherons Call 2.0" (no, not that stupid sequel that didn't have anything to do with Asherons Call). - YES, ABSOLUTELY YES!
Completely agree OP, it's the reason I have a really hard time getting into MMO's or if I do that can keep my attention like UO and SWG did.
They felt like 'Worlds' where it wasn't static like MMO worlds are today. Hell, you could eliminate the world from 90% of MMO's and it wouldn't matter since it isn't utilized after you hit max level and all it is is instance this instance that.
You are not accounting for players growing up and newness of MMOs wearing off.
There are games today that are more virtual worlds than any gen 1 game - why aren't you playing them?
Because you changed, the newness awe feeling is gone forever.
Yes, nostalgia is a valid emotion. No, no one is "looking down at you" for being nostalgic. That said, your argument has two glaring issues:
- part of your nostalgia is novelty, and you seem to be dismissing the effect that has had 15 years and 20-200 MMOs later for most people.
- As DMKano pointed out, the feature on your list exist in current MMOs, but you won't acknowledge them.
It's safe to say that almost every poster here that is pining for "that feeling of wonder" and "that feeling you're in a living breathing world" should probably look elsewhere for their entertainment because they'll never find it in MMOs. That's not to say it doesn't exist in MMOs, just that those people, specifically, will never find it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This is why i'm so sick of the Rose colored glasses / nostalgia arguments. When games come out that are equivalent to or better than the old ones (with enough similar features to be comparable) THEN and ONLY THEN can you say that nostalgia is getting in the way.
The old games are popular with a certain crowd for a lot of different reasons and for some people I'm sure that nostalgia is a huge factor. However, for pretty much everyone I know we go back to those older games because nothing else compares or does it even on par with those games, let alone better.
Give me a reason to enjoy the new games and I will. Give me a reskinned crappier version of the old games and I'm not gonna want to play it. It's not nostalgia, it's crap game development.
For a game like WoW, with X years in the making + 10 years of content development, refinement and polishing there's not a chance in hell any game just out of the oven could ever compete straight out. MMOs are constantly refining themselves and more often than not the sheer number of features that set it apart are things that can only be achieved by years of hard work and having spent years on the one game as a developer, learning how variables work and accumulating knowledge. You don't simply catch up instantly in an environment like that.
If we're talking about games older than WoW then it is merely a matter of not understanding that whatever valuable features old MMOs have, new MMOs simply have more. The genre is always moving forward, and that movement has meant some oldschool MMO features have had to go. It is the survival of the most valuable features and old MMOs simply have suffered a lot of natural selection.
You basically just argued that nothing in the world that is "new" could ever compare to something in the world that is established. That is kind of the opposite of reality in which foundations for success are already established and only need to be modified to create "new" success.
It's called innovation my friend. Look at whats happening, take that, make it better. Dont make "that", make "that" but better. THIS ISN'T HAPPENING. This was the whole point of the argument, it's just not happening. Do you really think that no company is capable of taking what somebody already did and doing it "better"?
Now, certainly "better" is an "opinion" but if you're argument had any weight then no one would ever be able to compete in any market and monopolies would be the only types of companies that existed as they would NEVER be able to have the experience necessary to compete and you end up with some sort of catch-22 paradox situation that would've stagnanted technological advancement thousands of years ago.
And, yeah, the "old" mmo's have suffered from a version of natural selection because they are competing against the newest stuff. That's the problem, you are trying to compare a game from 15+ years ago and saying "well that game from 15 years ago isn't that successful anymore so no one wants it compared to the new ones.
You're right there. And it's a moot argument as it really has nothing to do with my point. We feel nostalgic for that stuff, but we aren't asking for that back. We are asking for NEW VERSIONS of those games. Remade, innovated, advanced, but NOT what we have now.
It's really not a difficult concept and you are driving the argument away from it.
For example: If I preferred to play the NES mario bros OVER sonic because I enjoyed the gameplay of mario over sonic, it's not "nostalgia" it's gameplay preferences. Because of THAT reason, i played SNES mario over mario, same core concepts but better. Same can be said of games like smash bros vs mk vs smash bros melee, etc. etc.
You can't get that feeling back even if someone created your " perfect MMO" - you would never experience the same strong sense of wonder and awe - because youve done it before and experienced it already.
Also how many MMO developers have you talked to in RL???
The entire idea that devs are not building their dream MMOs and are not pushing the envelope is a stereotypical load of bullshit.
Go to any game expo - talk to actual lead devs (not marketing folks) - you will see how wrong you are.
Also lol at WoW clone idea - all Dev studios (including Blizzard) have abandoned WoW- killer projects.
How many wow clones are in Dev now - none.
Yeah, it only took 10 years for them to stop making WOW clones. GREAT point there buddy.
Major companies like Blizzard, EA, etc, have cancelled numerous projects because the genre is considered stagnant. Now people like you and the companies are trying to redefine what an MMO is and trick people into thinking MOBA's are MMOs, and games like hearthstone are MMOs.
And i'm sorry, but this idea that dev's ARE building their dream MMO's is actual bullshit. Companies like EA, Ubisoft, Activision, etc, have already made public statements that the are only going to produce titles which are guaranteed to make them a crapton of money. This is why we have crap like CoD iteration 25, Assassin's Creed 645 red flag edition, etc etc.
Destiny is a massive copy of Halo, there is 0 to no innovation there.
I'm sorry but you just have wool over your eyes if you think this genre is going anywhere.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by GeezerGamert. How is it that a SPRPG can offer more of a long term experience than these new MMOs?
A better question is, why do some feel something like Skyrim offers a longer term experience than your typical Themepark, when it basically offers the same thing? Why can they sit around and essentially do nothing there, yet not in an MMO when there are actually other players around, and in most cases more game-play options?
Apparently they are not the same thing.
I have over 1,100 hours in skyrim and I still play.
I can't seem to stick with any mmo for even half that time.
Why? Well "duh" the game play is different. How the world is set up to support that game play is also different.
A friend of mine only likes Elder Scrolls video games. He could never get interested in any other video game try as he might.
The other day I was wondering if he might get into MMO's because of the "supposed" huge world. It was then I realized "no, he couldn't" because they never have much to discover (hidden dungeons, temples, caves, etc) and if they are quest based then they often devolve to "run here, get 5, run back ...".
Even Elder Scrolls Online is heavily quest based which is what he usually avoids. The dungeons in ESO, up to this point, aren't that interesting.
So, they are not the same.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The point that you are missing is that once WoW decides to adopt a feature, they do it right.
Yes, because Blizz has never had to backtrack or change anything. Raids in WoD are the exact same as in Vanilla, because they did them right. LOLWUT??
What was that about the loot system I heard...?
The issue with most other games is they 1/2 ass features that they implement. Look at the arena in AA or BGs in Wildstar, they are atrocious. If you are going to create or add a feature it has to be implemented correctly or it drives people away.
I don't PvP much, but I have heard of the numerous issue in the PvP part of Wildstar. Of course, this just supports my point that good ideas, like Wildstar's combat, get buried by the community, because not everything works 100%, and then WoW-nertia takes over, where people their their money at Blizz, because "they do it right".
With that mindset amongst the players, why should company bother trying something new? The popular pieces just get "adopted" by WoW and then your project dies.
Completely agree OP, it's the reason I have a really hard time getting into MMO's or if I do that can keep my attention like UO and SWG did.
They felt like 'Worlds' where it wasn't static like MMO worlds are today. Hell, you could eliminate the world from 90% of MMO's and it wouldn't matter since it isn't utilized after you hit max level and all it is is instance this instance that.
You are not accounting for players growing up and newness of MMOs wearing off.
There are games today that are more virtual worlds than any gen 1 game - why aren't you playing them?
Because you changed, the newness awe feeling is gone forever.
Yes, nostalgia is a valid emotion. No, no one is "looking down at you" for being nostalgic. That said, your argument has two glaring issues:
- part of your nostalgia is novelty, and you seem to be dismissing the effect that has had 15 years and 20-200 MMOs later for most people.
- As DMKano pointed out, the feature on your list exist in current MMOs, but you won't acknowledge them.
It's safe to say that almost every poster here that is pining for "that feeling of wonder" and "that feeling you're in a living breathing world" should probably look elsewhere for their entertainment because they'll never find it in MMOs. That's not to say it doesn't exist in MMOs, just that those people, specifically, will never find it.
DMKano refused to name even one MMORPG that contained the OP's desired features, can you provide the list of titles you feel contain the designs of old in a more modern day format?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You basically just argued that nothing in the world that is "new" could ever compare to something in the world that is established. That is kind of the opposite of reality in which foundations for success are already established and only need to be modified to create "new" success.
It's called innovation my friend. Look at whats happening, take that, make it better. Dont make "that", make "that" but better. THIS ISN'T HAPPENING. This was the whole point of the argument, it's just not happening. Do you really think that no company is capable of taking what somebody already did and doing it "better"?
Now, certainly "better" is an "opinion" but if you're argument had any weight then no one would ever be able to compete in any market and monopolies would be the only types of companies that existed as they would NEVER be able to have the experience necessary to compete and you end up with some sort of catch-22 paradox situation that would've stagnanted technological advancement thousands of years ago.
And, yeah, the "old" mmo's have suffered from a version of natural selection because they are competing against the newest stuff. That's the problem, you are trying to compare a game from 15+ years ago and saying "well that game from 15 years ago isn't that successful anymore so no one wants it compared to the new ones.
You're right there. And it's a moot argument as it really has nothing to do with my point. We feel nostalgic for that stuff, but we aren't asking for that back. We are asking for NEW VERSIONS of those games. Remade, innovated, advanced, but NOT what we have now.
It's really not a difficult concept and you are driving the argument away from it.
For example: If I preferred to play the NES mario bros OVER sonic because I enjoyed the gameplay of mario over sonic, it's not "nostalgia" it's gameplay preferences. Because of THAT reason, i played SNES mario over mario, same core concepts but better. Same can be said of games like smash bros vs mk vs smash bros melee, etc. etc.
No I did not. The difference between everything that is established and MMOs is that MMOs are not so established at all. That's the whole point. Released MMOs can further refine and update themselves, the product is not only that which you get at the release. And this does make it problematic for new MMOs to meet the standards set by these old MMOs because said old MMOs have had so much time to grow and perfect their formula.
More importantly in any matured industry before you can leverage any competition advantage by innovating you need to meet the current standards of the industry. In MMOs this is very hard to do because often the standards come down to nothing but sheer content and feature development. In any matured industry innovation is also harder and harder to come by. The fact an industry is matured speaks of the natural selection that has made certain ways of doing things ultimately better than others. That leaves only a certain path for the industry to take, which in MMO scene has been inaccurately blamed on companies trying to copy WoW's success, while the fact is WoW was simply the driving force behind a vast amount of natural selection and companies understand this. Just because companies "copy" WoW (like every matured industry "copies" each other) does not automatically mean there are "better" alternatives out there.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
DMKano refused to name even one MMORPG that contained the OP's desired features, can you provide the list of titles you feel contain the designs of old in a more modern day format?
Exactly.. I get tired of people telling "my" gaming desires are out there so play them, but no one can name them.. /shrug
I want a truer RPG game that allows us to manage our characters:
Food/Drink requirement
Weight encumbrance
Stamina
Player economy w/ meaningful crafting
Open World as the focus.. NO INSTANCING
PvE focus (PvP balance can take a hike)
Meaningful roles
Combination of group and solo content
NO linear themepark quest hubs
I miss the little things that people always cried about saying they were too inconvenient such as "clicking" to open doors, or learning languages, or remember when a mob hit and "dazed" you and you started to spin around as you kept getting beat on? Trains CHOOO CHOOOO..
Now a days, MMO's feel like whack a mole arcade with a dance, then a legit RPG adventure..
Why would we want dime of those things? If my opinion many I'd those did not add anything positive to the experience at all. Monks got ripped off. Meditation was a dull period of non gameplay. The food and drink requirement did not add any fun factor just took up bag space. The bonuses that sone food provide still exist today usually in terms of food. Alcohol was sometimes fun and that was fluff. There is a lot of fluff in games which is a good thing.
The exploration and fun hasn't changed. Just your view of them has.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I would argue they haven't changed enough. It has been largely the same thing for 17 years. I am convinced that until they change the way we interface and or interact witth the games many many people will not experience that sense is wonder again.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Why would we want dime of those things? If my opinion many I'd those did not add anything positive to the experience at all. Monks got ripped off. Meditation was a dull period of non gameplay. The food and drink requirement did not add any fun factor just took up bag space. The bonuses that sone food provide still exist today usually in terms of food. Alcohol was sometimes fun and that was fluff. There is a lot of fluff in games which is a good thing.
The exploration and fun hasn't changed. Just your view of them has.
There's the key phrase there, in my opinion.
From my viewpoint they did, they added a level of management to the game play, you had to make sure you had enough, but not too much, and downtime meant you had to learn to maximize your kill rate while minimizing the effects of downtime.
A well coordinated/built 8 man group might be able to pull 5 full spawns before having to rest/recharge, and might bounce back in 2 minutes, vs a PUG that might only kill 2 or 3 spawns before resting maybe 4 or 5 minutes.
It was a different style, and it allowed for lots of social interaction, which I understand most players are not interested in today, but doesn't change the fact few MMORPG's today allow for this. (I happen to be playing one that does, EVE btw)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
IMO many MMOs dumbed down the experience to broaden their player base. Not all people like food management, not all people like meditating to get mana. Most MMOs these days went for pure action all the time, little to no downtime. I wouldn't mind having so many MMOs like that if we had OTHER OPTIONS, BUT THERE ARE NONE!!!
I didn't think food/drink was annoying.. it was just part of the experience. if you ran out of food/drink, you begged in zone to have someone summon you some to get you by until you got to a merchant. You met people this way. IMO this stuff added to the feeling of a "world" and not just any old game.
I like downtime, I like death penalties, I like games that need grouping for certain things. Even EQ could easily be soloed to 1-50 in original EQ, yes grouping could make for better exp sometimes and yes you had to group for many bosses until you were way over their level, but you could still solo a lot of content. The group dynamics were just amazing in EQ. You could feel it when you had a good group, you could see it. A bad group was rough and usually didn't stay together. You met cool people, met people you decided you may not want to play with again. It was all part of being in the EQ world. Good and bad experiences...
I miss quests that mattered. Epic quests were a bit of a pain in the butt. They were time consuming and you often had to look up a guide on them, but the reward felt like a real reward worth your time... imagine that. Quests in MMOs today are boring and require little to no thought/planning or effort. They are far more "grindy" than just killing mobs IMO. I'd MUCH rather do that then be an errand boy.
MMOs today are all easy-mode and action action action action, rush rush rush. I don't play any for more than a month because thats usually how quickly I will get burned out and bored. I have nothing against variety. I think it's good there are MMOs that can appeal to the "casuals" but I do hate that there are really no MMOs to appeal to the other people. Perhaps someday...
Comments
WoW is not the issue... Other companies trying to recreate WoW is the issue.
What I am saying is, prior to WoW MMO games were very niche, in fact I would bet that EQ at it's peak probably had 80 - 100k players, I would bet the same is true for UO. WoW comes along and a perfect storm of an upturn in broadband, PC's dropping in price, more females getting interested in gaming, and the fact that WoW was a solid game and appealed to people of all ages made WoW the behemoth it is.
WoW was what the masses wanted, their 12 million subs proved that and the fact that after 10 years they still have around 10 million subs solidifies it. Don't be upset with blizzard for their success, be upset with all these other companies for trying to be the "next" WoW.
There are plenty of games out there that are niche games that are nothing like WoW. They are just that niche games which is exactly what EQ, UO, Shadowbane, etc were, except no one knew any better because MMO were a new concept.
For a game like WoW, with X years in the making + 10 years of content development, refinement and polishing there's not a chance in hell any game just out of the oven could ever compete straight out. MMOs are constantly refining themselves and more often than not the sheer number of features that set it apart are things that can only be achieved by years of hard work and having spent years on the one game as a developer, learning how variables work and accumulating knowledge. You don't simply catch up instantly in an environment like that.
If we're talking about games older than WoW then it is merely a matter of not understanding that whatever valuable features old MMOs have, new MMOs simply have more. The genre is always moving forward, and that movement has meant some oldschool MMO features have had to go. It is the survival of the most valuable features and old MMOs simply have suffered a lot of natural selection.
It looks like it's not gameplay that you guys are missing but the glorified chat rooms because of all the downtime you have in those games because the gameplay certainly wasn't that great.
This ^
Something a lot of people overlook is the fact that perspective matters. Whenever you approach anything with a fresh set of eyes, it's going to seem like a different experience than when you're comparing something to a million different things. And that's where we're at today. MMOs are no longer treated like a new experience, a new game to explore. Heck, I can say the same for most games.
We treat them as a list of features, a list of comparisons to make and weigh to see how they match up to our own expectations. And that's the key word. We now have expectations. We really didn't when this genre was new. And that changes things drastically.
Because none of the older games really had any set standard, they naturally seemed better when we enjoyed them. We loved the 'newness', and learned to like (or at least tolerate the flaws). Like fighting over mob tags, dealing w/ camping spots, or corpse campers, mob trains, etc. Stuff most people would never put up with in today's market.
Curious, to list WoW with these other games and then claiming these were all "vastly different".
Everyone assumes that since WoW still has millions of people if not playing at least paying that Blizz must have done something right, which of course was to harvest the popular parts of previous games and stitch them together into the homunculus that is WoW. They further assume Blizz is continuing to do the right thing though really, WoW is still doing the same thing, grabbing popular chunks from other games and is otherwise just riding on inertia and.., wait for it: nostalgia. People have their level 9,000 orange paladins that they worked on for a decade now, that they do not want to abandon, and maybe, just maybe this new expac will bring back the feeling everyone had during the first few months of vanilla WoW.
Games that do innovate may strike gold in one or two facets, though if the rest of the game doesn't hold up to it, they are still labelled as "WoW clones" by the hordes. Once the next release cycle for WoW rolls around, Blizz will incorporate the shiny new pieces they heard everyone likes, and henceforth it will be known that WoW did feature X first and last and always and everyone else is just a clone.
Why should companies invest in new ideas when this is not rewarded by the players? Why should Blizz stop phoning it in when people still throw money at them for it?
Completely disagree. It was part of the reason we liked them so much. The combat wasn't the best for sure, but the combination of slow combat and needing to socialize and a couple other systems gave us the whole package. I think another poster got it partially right, in that some of the systems just weren't for the mainstream. Harsh death penalty, no hand holding, these kinda things some people couldn't wrap their heads around why they're important.
Maybe it's the later generations have a better sense of imagination or something, I don't know but overall even if all that's the case, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be able to get "spiritual successors" to these games. There is still a demographic that is interested in games designed in this fashion, with improvements for sure. Time will tell if someone will make one even if they're not gonna get the 10 million subs. The main point being, there is value there and its not some glasses or nostalgia that makes us want games like this, it's gameplay. Even if that gameplay doesn't make sense to the majority of gamers.
The point that you are missing is that once WoW decides to adopt a feature, they do it right. For example housing, if you look at the Garrison feature it is huge and robust and game all within itself. This is also one of the reasons that FFXIV is largely successful, they do what they do well.
The issue with most other games is they 1/2 ass features that they implement. Look at the arena in AA or BGs in Wildstar, they are atrocious. If you are going to create or add a feature it has to be implemented correctly or it drives people away.
What you're overlooking is that the reason Blizzard is able to do this so well, is because they don't need to do the trial and error required to come up with an original idea.
Almost all of their efforts can go into polishing and implementation. They don't need to worry about whether or not something works, because it's already been done before.
It makes good business sense, but is a horrible model if you are looking for new ideas within a genre. It's one of the reasons why Blizzard is now dipping into other genres. They've cherry picked most of the good ideas within MMORPGs that they can put into their own game. The other areas that we've seen innovation have been in other forms of MMOs (shooters, sci-fi, sports, etc.).
Now they're dipping into the worlds of CCGs, shooters, and MOBAs, where there is a plethora of ideas to steal. And thanks to their loyal fanbase and established IPs, they can actually get away with doing so.
Hyperbole
A) The term "we" in arguments such as this one typically only include the people who are clamoring for such things. I even made an excerpt to point out that some people will prefer themeparks. Those games are great for them. The "we" doesn't include YOU, it includes the ones of us on the OTHER side of the fence.
Do I want Asheron's call? Hell NO! and that is ABSOLUTELY my "nostalgia" mmo.
Do I want a seemless open world with randomly generated loot, meaningful death penalties and pvp, and completely open ended classless character progression and advancement that would basically be an "Asherons Call 2.0" (no, not that stupid sequel that didn't have anything to do with Asherons Call). - YES, ABSOLUTELY YES!
An excellent point.
@OP
Yes, nostalgia is a valid emotion. No, no one is "looking down at you" for being nostalgic. That said, your argument has two glaring issues:
- part of your nostalgia is novelty, and you seem to be dismissing the effect that has had 15 years and 20-200 MMOs later for most people.
- As DMKano pointed out, the feature on your list exist in current MMOs, but you won't acknowledge them.
It's safe to say that almost every poster here that is pining for "that feeling of wonder" and "that feeling you're in a living breathing world" should probably look elsewhere for their entertainment because they'll never find it in MMOs. That's not to say it doesn't exist in MMOs, just that those people, specifically, will never find it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You basically just argued that nothing in the world that is "new" could ever compare to something in the world that is established. That is kind of the opposite of reality in which foundations for success are already established and only need to be modified to create "new" success.
It's called innovation my friend. Look at whats happening, take that, make it better. Dont make "that", make "that" but better. THIS ISN'T HAPPENING. This was the whole point of the argument, it's just not happening. Do you really think that no company is capable of taking what somebody already did and doing it "better"?
Now, certainly "better" is an "opinion" but if you're argument had any weight then no one would ever be able to compete in any market and monopolies would be the only types of companies that existed as they would NEVER be able to have the experience necessary to compete and you end up with some sort of catch-22 paradox situation that would've stagnanted technological advancement thousands of years ago.
And, yeah, the "old" mmo's have suffered from a version of natural selection because they are competing against the newest stuff. That's the problem, you are trying to compare a game from 15+ years ago and saying "well that game from 15 years ago isn't that successful anymore so no one wants it compared to the new ones.
You're right there. And it's a moot argument as it really has nothing to do with my point. We feel nostalgic for that stuff, but we aren't asking for that back. We are asking for NEW VERSIONS of those games. Remade, innovated, advanced, but NOT what we have now.
It's really not a difficult concept and you are driving the argument away from it.
For example: If I preferred to play the NES mario bros OVER sonic because I enjoyed the gameplay of mario over sonic, it's not "nostalgia" it's gameplay preferences. Because of THAT reason, i played SNES mario over mario, same core concepts but better. Same can be said of games like smash bros vs mk vs smash bros melee, etc. etc.
Yeah, it only took 10 years for them to stop making WOW clones. GREAT point there buddy.
Major companies like Blizzard, EA, etc, have cancelled numerous projects because the genre is considered stagnant. Now people like you and the companies are trying to redefine what an MMO is and trick people into thinking MOBA's are MMOs, and games like hearthstone are MMOs.
And i'm sorry, but this idea that dev's ARE building their dream MMO's is actual bullshit. Companies like EA, Ubisoft, Activision, etc, have already made public statements that the are only going to produce titles which are guaranteed to make them a crapton of money. This is why we have crap like CoD iteration 25, Assassin's Creed 645 red flag edition, etc etc.
Destiny is a massive copy of Halo, there is 0 to no innovation there.
I'm sorry but you just have wool over your eyes if you think this genre is going anywhere.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Apparently they are not the same thing.
I have over 1,100 hours in skyrim and I still play.
I can't seem to stick with any mmo for even half that time.
Why? Well "duh" the game play is different. How the world is set up to support that game play is also different.
A friend of mine only likes Elder Scrolls video games. He could never get interested in any other video game try as he might.
The other day I was wondering if he might get into MMO's because of the "supposed" huge world. It was then I realized "no, he couldn't" because they never have much to discover (hidden dungeons, temples, caves, etc) and if they are quest based then they often devolve to "run here, get 5, run back ...".
Even Elder Scrolls Online is heavily quest based which is what he usually avoids. The dungeons in ESO, up to this point, aren't that interesting.
So, they are not the same.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes, because Blizz has never had to backtrack or change anything. Raids in WoD are the exact same as in Vanilla, because they did them right. LOLWUT??
What was that about the loot system I heard...?
I don't PvP much, but I have heard of the numerous issue in the PvP part of Wildstar. Of course, this just supports my point that good ideas, like Wildstar's combat, get buried by the community, because not everything works 100%, and then WoW-nertia takes over, where people their their money at Blizz, because "they do it right".
With that mindset amongst the players, why should company bother trying something new? The popular pieces just get "adopted" by WoW and then your project dies.
DMKano refused to name even one MMORPG that contained the OP's desired features, can you provide the list of titles you feel contain the designs of old in a more modern day format?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No I did not. The difference between everything that is established and MMOs is that MMOs are not so established at all. That's the whole point. Released MMOs can further refine and update themselves, the product is not only that which you get at the release. And this does make it problematic for new MMOs to meet the standards set by these old MMOs because said old MMOs have had so much time to grow and perfect their formula.
More importantly in any matured industry before you can leverage any competition advantage by innovating you need to meet the current standards of the industry. In MMOs this is very hard to do because often the standards come down to nothing but sheer content and feature development. In any matured industry innovation is also harder and harder to come by. The fact an industry is matured speaks of the natural selection that has made certain ways of doing things ultimately better than others. That leaves only a certain path for the industry to take, which in MMO scene has been inaccurately blamed on companies trying to copy WoW's success, while the fact is WoW was simply the driving force behind a vast amount of natural selection and companies understand this. Just because companies "copy" WoW (like every matured industry "copies" each other) does not automatically mean there are "better" alternatives out there.
Exactly.. I get tired of people telling "my" gaming desires are out there so play them, but no one can name them.. /shrug
I want a truer RPG game that allows us to manage our characters:
The exploration and fun hasn't changed. Just your view of them has.
Both are true.
Of course there's a sense of nostalgia when you think about past games, but nobody can deny that MMORPGs have changed after WoW.
There's the key phrase there, in my opinion.
From my viewpoint they did, they added a level of management to the game play, you had to make sure you had enough, but not too much, and downtime meant you had to learn to maximize your kill rate while minimizing the effects of downtime.
A well coordinated/built 8 man group might be able to pull 5 full spawns before having to rest/recharge, and might bounce back in 2 minutes, vs a PUG that might only kill 2 or 3 spawns before resting maybe 4 or 5 minutes.
It was a different style, and it allowed for lots of social interaction, which I understand most players are not interested in today, but doesn't change the fact few MMORPG's today allow for this. (I happen to be playing one that does, EVE btw)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
IMO many MMOs dumbed down the experience to broaden their player base. Not all people like food management, not all people like meditating to get mana. Most MMOs these days went for pure action all the time, little to no downtime. I wouldn't mind having so many MMOs like that if we had OTHER OPTIONS, BUT THERE ARE NONE!!!
I didn't think food/drink was annoying.. it was just part of the experience. if you ran out of food/drink, you begged in zone to have someone summon you some to get you by until you got to a merchant. You met people this way. IMO this stuff added to the feeling of a "world" and not just any old game.
I like downtime, I like death penalties, I like games that need grouping for certain things. Even EQ could easily be soloed to 1-50 in original EQ, yes grouping could make for better exp sometimes and yes you had to group for many bosses until you were way over their level, but you could still solo a lot of content. The group dynamics were just amazing in EQ. You could feel it when you had a good group, you could see it. A bad group was rough and usually didn't stay together. You met cool people, met people you decided you may not want to play with again. It was all part of being in the EQ world. Good and bad experiences...
I miss quests that mattered. Epic quests were a bit of a pain in the butt. They were time consuming and you often had to look up a guide on them, but the reward felt like a real reward worth your time... imagine that. Quests in MMOs today are boring and require little to no thought/planning or effort. They are far more "grindy" than just killing mobs IMO. I'd MUCH rather do that then be an errand boy.
MMOs today are all easy-mode and action action action action, rush rush rush. I don't play any for more than a month because thats usually how quickly I will get burned out and bored. I have nothing against variety. I think it's good there are MMOs that can appeal to the "casuals" but I do hate that there are really no MMOs to appeal to the other people. Perhaps someday...