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Danish Cartoons of Mohammed
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"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
what id like to know (and im going to have to rely on those of you out there who understand the danish language) is where the cartoons printed by the paper with the express intent of causing this kind of reaction? or where they printed as a political type cartoon and used by some muslim extremist to encite the people into rioting?
my reason for asking this is the fact that the cartoons were initially printed back in september of 05 and have since been reprinted numerous times in other country's newspapers. so why the delaed reaction? do you feel me on this? or am i just reachin for straws?
Yeah Anofayle thats good thinking.
If you want to see the result of a long term policy of retribution look at Israel, Its almost imposible to tell who threw the first punch now, but it doesnt stop them fighting.
2 wrongs dont make a right, nor do 3 or 4 or 5 or.........................
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"Far away across the field, the tolling of the iron bell, calls the faithful to their knees. To hear the softly spoken magic spell" Pink Floyd-Dark Side of the Moon
As a dane i think i safely can say those cartoons were directed towards the fanatic branch of Fanatic muslims.
Just look at a few of the cartoons,then you will see what i mean.
But there has been a lot of misunderstandings in this whole mess.
Jyllands Posten posted 12 cartoons where maybe 3 of them can be seen a offensive if you're a muslim but it was the Danish Imams who traveled to Egypt and showed some drawings that has NEVER been printed in Jyllands posten.
Look at my first post in this thread where i try to explain it.
There is fanatic Imams here in Denmark who does not believe in democracy and the Danish way of life and always try to stir the pot.
it's like they still is living in the middleage and want the whole world to live like they pray.
it's always the same Imams we read about here in Denmark that says there are speaking for every muslim here in Denmark but they are speaking for maybe like 10-15,000 muslims.
Can't remember exact how many muslims we have in Denmark but i think it's about 300,000 so those Imams are thank god only representing a very small number of muslims.
The majority of muslims in Denmark represent no threat but sadly they are afraid to speak out in Public because of those fanatic Imams and followers.
In our Danish parlament there is a politician named Nased Khader who is a muslim immigrated from Syria but was born in palestine and he lives with constant policeprotection because he and his family (he is married to a native white dane) is threatened on his life by Fanatic danish Muslims who says he is a fallen Muslim and he should be killed for that.
One of the Imams said a few years back that all muslims who hate Naser Khader goes to heaven!
He also get threats from the right winged neonazists but he said he get more threats from fellow muslims
I can tell you this.
If every muslim in Denmark would act and live like Naser Khader do,we would not have any racism here.
He actually has a tatoo on his shoulder in Arabic that says "Democracy"
Democracy comes before Religion Naser Khader says,and for that and other things he is threated on his life by a small number of fellow muslims here in Denmark who sadly is fanatic fundamentalists.
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Cowing is worser than a retribution policy.
Hitler was stopped.
Israel is responsible for it current situation, it did too much and too little at the same time. Israel should have been more brutal AND more caring toward the palestinians.
The colonisation of Palestinians lands, expulsing of innocents and everything...Israel was nasty against innocents and not hard enought against the guilty.
The solution was a total occupation, total repression, but total protection of palestinians rights, which they never offer.
But that is disgressing. When folks harm innocents, there are no possible compromises. But you also have to take responsability and a caring attitude toward those who are innocents in a society you "protect" from unrightfull rulers.
West Germany was a prime example of what I am saying. Today Deutschland is a wonderfull country. There was a TOTAL occupation, but also a FAIR and caring attitude toward the Germans peoples who come to accept that. Eventually they reclaim their freedom and now they are PROUDLY leading the EU, which is the first worldwide economic power!
Iraq invasion was a mistake IMO, but if the USA keep holding their responsability and remains there for the necessary time (be it 2 years or 50 years), Iraq will become a wonderfull place, in time. As long as the USA are nice and protective, friendly and FAIR...and brutals when necessary.
There...are...no compromises. When peoples kill innocents, you face them.
I am Canadian French. The British uphold a total and brutal occupation over here, but they were caring, fair and nices overall. It was not perfect, but it took a LONG time. Yet, we where more loyals to the British than the Loyalists were! "Quebec" is still under the British Canada unlike the 9 other provinces, the Britishs are not really free of us yet!
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
What bothers me in this whole issue is the duality of how Muslim world percives freedom of speech and freedom of expression. When in Egypt and Saudi Arabia it is quite common to see cartoon of Jewish religion and Christians but you dont see Jewish or Christians rioting; however when there is a cartoon reguarding Muslim world there is an uprising. If they dont like it so much, why are they doing it on the first place?
It is ofcourse their right to protest against the publication CIVILY! There are a lot of ways to do it without reserving to violance. Instead they vandalize private properly of people who had nothing to do with the publication; and today there were reports of them acutally killing 4 people.
IMO it is impossible to use diplomancy with people who seem to understand only brute force; the only thing I am wandering is when the rest of the world will come to the same conclusion.
First off I'd have to agree with Urza (as he basically echoed my original post on the matter) that really it's just a case of them freaking out because they're the ones in the cartoon this time, not some religion they don't like.
Someone else mentioned how it wasn't written in the Qur'an (I really don't know which is the proper spelling anymore) that nobody was allowed to draw pictures of Mohammed (I guess that's the spelling we're using in this thread too, heh). That's actually a very good point. It wasn't forbidden in their holy text probably because whoever wrote it didn't think of it, or didn't think it would be a big deal. Because something like these silly little cartoons are, in the scheme of a major religious timeline, quite insignifigant. It's not like the Islamic record of history will be like
450BC- Prophet Mohammed writes the Qur'an
200BC- The Qur'an is accepted by many middle eastern societies.
120AD- First Ramadan Celebrated
2006AD- Denmark newspaper prints silly cartoons about Islam.
I just made those dates and stuff up, but do we really think that these tiny jokes are going to shake the foundations of a religion that's lasted all these years?
I think the leaders and protesters are really just over-reacting and shouting "Look at how mean they are to us! Look at them insulting us! They're all picking on us. Oh noes!" Really they are just playing the Martyr... okay maybe that's a bad word to use, heh. But you get the point right? They're just crying foul to use it against countries which they don't really like in the first place, and to claim they're being picked on etc.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
I find it ironic how these radical Muslims claim that Westerners are so intolerant of their beliefs, when in fact they are the least tolerant of all.
They got no right or basis to bitch about something so ridiculous in a free and democratic country such as Denmark, and the fact that innocent peoples lives are at risk from these idiots disgusts me.
Btw I'm talking about the 'radical Muslims' here, not the general community. But those that take sides with these radicals are just as retarded. Stupid, brainwashed people with nothing better to do, nuff said.
There, thats just my oppinion, the situation has been ridiculously blown up (no pun intended) by these idiots.
O_o o_O
first of all i am a muslim
and i say that im ok with freedom of speech and all of that, but when it comes to religions, this is the tricky part. you should see if what you do might insult someone's religion.
and the muslims that attacked the embassies and stuff are wrong, this is not the way of islam.
and those that claim to be muslims and kill innocent people, my opinion about those is that they are not muslims.
because it is forbidden in islam to kill innocents.
islam is dedicated to peace. and those morons that are killing innocents, burning flags, and attacking embassies.
are RUINING islam, and making us look like bad people, they kill innocents in the name of god and make people think we are mad bombers and terrorists.
now i really hate those people and i want them to stop that.
How many peaceful religions in the world today have resorted to beheadings, kidnappings and suicide bombings to prove their point?
How many peaceful religions send video tape of executions and kidnap victims to television stations with the followers of the peaceful religion holding an AK-47 to the head of someone who is blindfolded and bound?
How many peaceful religions destroy embassies and take up destructive protests because of a cartoon?
That actually makes me laugh, a cartoon...
beheading is only for those that kill another person
as for the bombing, kidnapping , and any sort of harm to people who are not at war with us is not islam
so if a muslims kills another innocent (muslim or not) he should be beheaded, but that's only in saudi arabia because they are the only country that uses all the islamic laws, the other countries dont.
saudi arabia is the only true country that uses islamic laws, the others only use a bit and leave a bit ( wich may be to their advantage sometimes )
I agree with the fact that all old religions have this kinda of "Old Ways" thing to them that lead to disaster most of the time.
WARNING: LONG DIGRESSION ABOUT MONOTHEISTIC RELIGIONS FOLLOWS, IF YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED JUMP DOWN TO THE END FOR THE RECENT FACT OPINIONS
The three major Monotheistic religions of the world are Judaism (the oldest), Christianity and Islam. Each are based on the previous somehow. (All eastern religions are more philosophies and so are not considered as they do not have a "god" to speak of and their principles are radically different).
Judaism as a religion is practiced by a small minority of people, most of which lives in Israel. while Judaism is a old religion based on a book more than 3000 years old when concepts of human rights or gender parity where non-existant, Israel is a secular state.
As such, religion has no influence in the State decisions at all if not as individual influence. But the Head Rabbi of Judaism has 0 direct political influence, same as the Pope or the other christians churches leaders.
This is, in my opinion, is one of the actual point of difference between Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
All religions have very contradictory moral terms in their holy book. the old testament, as said before, is full of massacres, killing of the sinners and what not. the Qu'Ran is even more controversial as the whole full half, written when Mohammed was not an exile, is very peaceful and tolerant. the second half, however, written when Mohammed had been exiled and civil war was raging, is much more violent with speak of "cutting down the enemies of God" and so on.
Of course moderate Muslims looks to the first half of the book and extremists to the second. Sadly is a matter of scholars to understand which one is best
Islamic scholars generally divide the sections and verses of the Qur'an into two groups: the verses revealed in Mecca, and the verses revealed in Medina. The Meccan verses generally preach peace and accommodation, leaving it to God and the Day of Judgment to separate the believers from the unbelievers.
The Medinan verses, revealed after Muhammad and his follows had fled to Medina and taken up the sword against the Meccans, stress the necessity of fighting against the unbelievers, and promise paradise to the faithful who fall in holy war, or jihad.
Thus there are Qur'anic grounds for radically different attitudes towards non-Muslims."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions#Contemporary_Islam
Bible's new testament is particular in this as non-contradictory. Jesus' message is one of peace, no matter if it is Matthew or Paul to say it. He never preached violence or intolerance and he was actually pretty progressive about women and human rights. Probably this happens because the original book is supposedly to be written in a brief amount of time (3 years). There are mentions of other new testaments that would contain certain informations about Jesus not approved by the Roman Chatolic church (whoever has read the Da Vinci Code, knows some of them like how it is possible that a Palestinian Jew of that period was not married when marriage was a status in that culture and being un-married was almost like being a criminal?) but whetever these are true or not do not remove the core belief of tolerance and non-violence that Christ's message spread.
END OF DIGRESSION, RECENT FACT OPINION FOLLOWS:
About the incident at hand, i believe this has nothing to do with the drawings. It was an excuse used by extremists to enflame certain parts of populations of certain countries to further their goals. As we know, Freedom of speech is not very spread in those regions, not many have tvs or internet so they have no alternative source of information and when their respected religious leader (that, in some cases, are also political leaders) tell them that the danish devils have strongly insulted the Prophets, what you think would happen?
I put the blame of these happenings, 100%, on extremists muslim leaders and not on whatever danish satyre artist.
I believe those leaders have certain goals and to further those goals they will use whatever happening they can. If it wasn't a danish satyre writer today it could have been Blair's declarations tomorrow, an Italian newspaper commentary next week, A Holland cook interview in 2 weeks, Bush latest print conference or whatever other excuse they can find.
What is their goal? to get or keep power. They do this trough blind indoctrinations and religious propaganda. the West countries are their primary targets because we are a danger for them as we represent what their subjects may want if they would know properly. So we get demonized for our culture, religions or even eating and entertainment habits.
They are no different than the Roman Catholic Church was in the middle age, keeping a monopoly on information and culture. Those times here, thanks God, are past but there they aren't, they are still in their Dark Ages (luckly not all muslim countries are like this, but some are).
What solution there could be? i do not know. The Church domination in Europe terminated as various National Governments grew stronger and resentful of Church interference, but in many muslim countries the Church IS the goverment... so i don't honestly know. I wish for the best
Volkmar out.
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
It's people like you that has to help stop the Fanatic muslims but it seems like the little man on the street (You) is afraid to stand up and speak against those Fanatic Imams and Muftis.
If it's really true that the vast majority of the worlds 1,3 billion muslims is peaceful and all those stood up and took actions against every Imam,mufti AND country that preached for a violent Islam,maybe things would change.
Until that happens the 2 cultures will continue to stumble into eachother.
When i look at a lot of the Islamic countries i see a lot of suppresion of women,violent governments and dictators,Sharia law,a huge gap between rich and poor and countries where the normal man on the street is living like 500 years ago.
It's no wonder the western civilization has a huge problem understanding Islam.
Here's a mix of things from different countries that is islamic that seems strange to people from the west..
Women are not allowed to drive,women are not allowed to vote,women is forced to wear a burka,Men is allowed to have several wifes,The bible and biblic symbols are not allowed,Sharia law is used so it's allowed to chop off someone hands or behead them,Government decides what to print in the newspapers,No other religions are allowed other than Islam,women are not allowed to a divorce,women and men are forced into marriages and the list could go on and on.
Kainous,what things of the above do you accept as a muslim?
If you ask me,noone of those things should be allowed in todays world.
Noone should be forced into something they don't want to,just because an old book says so and that goes for the bible as well as the Qu'ran.
There is tens and tens of millions muslims that has escaped from their country in the middleeast and took asylum in Europe,but i still see some of those people complaining about the western life and culture.
Why don't those people move back to their original country instead of staying in Europe.
Maybe because Europe is a rich and wealthy continent,and the refugees actually has a better life here than in their original country?
Muslims who move to my country (Denmark) should accept the way of life we live here.
If they can't accept that,they might as well move back where they come from.
What would happen to me if i went to Saudi Arabia and applied for asylum,and then after i got it, i would not learn the language,i would not get a job but live on wealthfair,i would demand freedom of speech,i wanted churces,i would commit crimes and so on.
I know what would happen to me.
I would be killed or thrown out instantly.
Denmark has a very long history,and it's a small country with only 5,4 million people.
Before late 1960s we had very few immigrants other than from our surrounding countries but in the last 30 years that changed rapidly so now 10% is immigrants and most of those new citizens are muslims.
That's a very large sum in such a small country in so few years and that is creating a lot of problems.
It's a general problems in many of the European countries,so we have to solve this thing called Me and you,,us and them,Muslims and Christians.
But as long there is such nutcases in europe and the rest of the world that use Islam as a violent religion,we will continue to have this cultural barrier.
It's the moderate muslim who preach Islam as a peaceful religion that HAS to stand up and take actions against the fanatic Imams,muftis,countries and fellow muslims.
Until then many people will see Islam as a violent religion.
As you can see in this entire thread it's not just the 12 danish cartoons that is a problem.
It's a huge cultural problem and i think that this problem will continue unless the muslims learns to live as western muslims.
It's not me who has to adept in my own country.
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This is a classic result of people who take themselves far to seriously. It was a cartoon, by someone who did not share the same beliefs in regard to Mohammed. It is fine for people to believe as they wish, but forcing those beliefs on others is wrong and ignorant.
The end of the world will come when people forget how to laugh at themselves.
The only reason you can't have a depiction of Mohammed is they don't want him to become an idol. "Islam says it's all right to demonstrate but not to resort to violence... These rioters are defaming the name of Islam" (Mohammed Usman - CNN). Claiming that the riot is over a cartoon is hard to back up when you run around screaming, "death to Americans".
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hi, i dont mind at all what he did. its like the what most people say Great mohammed ali the boxer. when he was drafted, it was against islam to fight or go to war. but once the 911 attack on the world towers happened, it was his mouth that said, i agree we should go to war against terroist. he wants it both ways, which ever suits his purpose at the time. i like the cartoons and see nothing at all wrong with them. the islam burn our flag, attack our people and say its against there religion to do violince, bull.
Greetings All..
I just saw this topic, so i havent read all the 10 pages, but let me start by saying:
I am from Denmark, and Yes, we have insulted the entire muslim world, which, in its own right
is unfortunate, but countries that does not understabd freedom of speech, and stone their citisens to death, or kill a woman because a man looks at her, should (in my opinion) sweep in front of their own door, before going berserk, they in all truth, DONT understand what freedom of speech is, we have had it, for many, many years in denmark, so when a country says: and I quote: the artists aand the chiefs of Jyllandposten(the paper who puplised the drawings) should be behaded!..and the government should act in that direction immediately!..??wtf..dont they they get its Not the government who made the drawings?!, they are simply unable to comprehend what democracy and freedom of speech is...
thats my 5 cents
It's people like you that has to help stop the Fanatic muslims but it seems like the little man on the street (You) is afraid to stand up and speak against those Fanatic Imams and Muftis.
PEOPLE!!!! HE JUSTIFIED BEHEADINGS!!! Albeit he said criminals who murder should be beheaded, this still points to some very fundamental flaws within a majority of Islamic value systems... Don't go off on your save the world tangent... This guy believes that in certain instances beheadings are justified, where does that end? Mine as well fire up the guillotine...
Learn to read dude and learn to see the bigger picture... Suggesting beheadings as a means of criminal punishment is FANATIC!!! You people astound me...
Dis_Ordur.
You as a american shouldn't be the first to be offended by death punishment. Your country is doing it too. I agree that beheading is abit force that the injection, but still. And you must remember that Saudia Arabia is one of USA's biggest partners in the war against terror. Even if the country is ruled in a way that USA in no way supports.
For me all forms of death punishment is fanatic. It's a outdated method that belongs no where in the so called civilized world.
beheading does seem more barbaric, but it's all the same thing right? We just call it capital punishment and instead of lopping a head off we send 1000 wats of electricity thru your body.
good point phoenixs, i agree.
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love!compassion!forgivnness! humor sense! freedom?Its over?
Im Danish myself. I belive that there is a god or an afterlife or something, but I don't belive in Islam or Christianity or things like that.
I only have one simple opinion on this. And I belive that it is the core of freedom of speech.
I belive that the right to say what we want is the only freedom ANYONE really has. I won't stand by and bow to another religion in my own country because they make an uroar about something I don't belive in. Some of my best friends are from the muslim worlds. This was in Denmark. Not in the middle east.
Here it is not "okay" to stone women to dead for being raped and being considered cheated. Cutting disbeliefers arms off, or killing people who have other opinions than themselfs(Libbanon conflict being a good example).
Christian Extremists arent much better. You know does type of people who like to bomb abortion clinics?
In Denmark we have a danish nazi party. There is a small group of people in denmark that are neo nazis and have their own radio propaganda. The rest of us might be offended, disagree and have the least sympathy for that kind of people, but its DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
I can't belive that some people here want to defend "kill the infidels" instead of supporting the "turn the other cheek". How hard is it to just ignore it?
I often see jesus and the bible made fun off. Same with jews and hindus and budda and mormons and so many other religions and minoritys of people.
The point is that if we bow to this - To censur islam, then freedom of speech have failed. Thats the hole point. No ONE ever is entitled to tell anyone else what is reasonable and decently to do. And no... Honestly I doubt that people thought a cartoon would make this kind of reaction. Im sure world war 3 would start if they made a life of brian movie, with muhammed. I belive in everyone being equal.
Its certain peoples opinion. So because one cartoon artist did something provoking and asked political questions - which actually served its point. The picture of muahmmed with a bomb in his hat, symbolised the westerens view at islam. Most westerens see them as savages, when they themself talk about islam as being about peace. The drawings questioned that concept, and they stired allot of uproar.
its fair to boycot. But to burn flags? kill people? burn ambassadys? making death threats? Thats not cool at all when people are losing their lifes. Does cartoons were political. They had nothing to do with religion hatred, or propangada. In fact its the oppesite.
Does anyone here have any idea how much denmark has contrubited to the middle east and islamic world? We now serve hallal meat in our schools, have donated endless amonts of money to down there, and almost 20% of the danish population now consists of immagrants and refugees from the middle east.
We have freedom of speech. That is the freedom to say what we want. If people have a problem with that, they can turn the other way. They didnt had to read that danish newspaper. The hole thing was a set up. You think this is the first time that muhammed has been drawed? check out the famous christian book/poem called "Inferno" by Dante. It displays muhammed in a very negative way.
A hole country... no now its all of europe that has to suffer for a drawing one man did. One little man who didnt killed, hurt or did nothing to no one. He just made a cartoon. That was his choice, his belifs and no one can tell him to change does beliefs. Have a problem? just turn the other way around. generalising like jerks and saying that the goverment should interfere is wrong. then we would be no better than corupt middle easteren regimes.
How would the muslim world like if we said it was illegal to bad mouth Bush or USA? No one likes to be told what to do, or having beliefs forced upon them.
People here in Denmark are still blaffed at how they can be so offending. It doesnt make sense. Its nowhere near rational behavior. A rational person wouldnt bother with this. They act like we killed 6 million muslims and stated we wanted to exterminate islam. Nope.. a guy made a cartoon. Here comes world war 3.