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A game should be made PvE first... with World PvP added.
Dauzqul
Member RarePosts: 1,982
EverQuest 2 PvP (Nagafen Launch) was the best PvP ever created within the MMO genre.
Why?
The game was solely created for PvE, e.g., rich lore / story, endless amounts of land, loads of content etc.
What the developers did was simple. They took two servers and added semi-drop World PvP.
- Faction Vs. Faction Vs. Exile (No Faction FFA) World PvP.
- There were absolutely no safe zones. You could literally infiltrate the major city of the opposing faction. However, you had to be beyond careful, as the NPC guards would 1-shot a fully-equipped tank.
- There were no limits. PvP could happen anywhere and everywhere.
- There were no redundant Battlegrounds. Everything was "alive", unique, and completely random.
- Semi-Drop items from dead players. If you killed an enemy player, he or she wouldn't drop the gear they are holding. However, they will drop whatever gold was on them and perhaps a "loose" item within their inventory.
The above is so simple to achieve.
Why does modern PvP have to be so sassy? ;/
Comments
Game should be a balance of both styles developed in tandem, not one thrown in as an afterthought . EvE is a good example of a nice mix of both that creates a world that one feels like one is living in a vibrant world, not just an online version of a boring single player linear console game.. A good mmo virtual world will be like the real world, where you can pvp in real life but there's consequences, and the people in that world have to police the world themselves, like in the real world
PVP is NEVER good with PVE no matter how anyone tries,it is either crappy for PVE players or a half ass PVP system of which neither case is any good.
I have hard time figuring out why so many people can't look at it objectively and figure it out.
First of all GREAT pvp needs maps created for PVP,this is why ARENA pvp is the best because they are designed solely for pvp.The way it is done in rpg's is imo pathetic just REAL bad ,stand on level ground and just spam at each other hoping to hit or hoping you have better gear.If you have never seen the best pvp go watch tin Google from Unreal Tournament "Destrukt" "Gittz"or Quake "Fatality" you will shake your head at the skills .Then go watch rpg pvp and you will shake your head and lol.
Probably the most important reason behind PVP and PVE not EVER going to work is because the BEST PVE requires an unbalanced design based around grouping,where as if you are going to have PVP it needs balance so that each individual has a fair chance.
The last straw that makes most game a complete joke attempting to have pve+pvp is when they allow a level 50 to kill a level 1 it is just retarded.
The best ever pvp rating was in UT99 NGstats which rated players based on WHO they kill and their skill level related to others.In RPG's NOTHING is pro rated,the design and implementation of PVP in RPG's is at the very bottom of the barrel ,almost like the designers never even played pvp in their life.
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nah .. tens of millions of LoL may think that instanced, e-sport pvp, is more fun.
You and i have such totally opposite views on what makes good PVP, which should be neither fair nor balanced, ever.
You are describing PVP as a team sport, I prefer to play it like total war, see EVE.
In one losing doesn't really matter, in the other, avoiding losing is the most important thing, just like real life.
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A game needs to be designed for PvP from the ground up. You can't just tack it onto a PvE game and expect greatness.
I disagree on EQ2 PvP being good. The world setup was good, the game mechanics were not.
Because it PROBABLY was not.
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Tacking either of them on will make them bad, you have to design the game with both in mind and how they will interact from the start.
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What he was saying is that pvp should be an even playing field, where skill and map awareness win the game, not your class, gear or your level, which only prove how much free time you have on your hands.
Which is why he used the old fps games as examples.
It seems it's definitely hard to cater to both types of players, especially when it comes to any type of mmorpg.
Just in my experience, I definitely liked the Star Wars Galaxies TEF system, if you wanted to PvP, just flag yourself and go buck wild, if you wanted to chill and just watch other players PvP, that was just cool to watch and do other shit while other players go at it. I believe if you have a 2 or 3 faction system however a player should be flagged if in enemy territory.
To me being on a PvP server constantly gets old, there are just some times you just want to kick back and smell the roses like a good care bear should.
PvE focused games should have no PvP. I think it's been proven that when you add PvP it dilutes the PvE. Or, if PvP is added it should be completely separate from PvE like GW1 did with your PvE character progression separate from PvP progression.
PvP games can have PvE, look at EVE... works fine there.
Exactly.
I say it again and again, an MMO has to be fun without PvP, for it to be fun with PvP. My favorite pvp in any mmo was Everquest, because the game had so much to achieve, and thus, so much to fight over. Territory control, castle sieges, all those other gimmicks, COULD be fun, if the game and the game world itself were worth experiencing and fighting over.
I remember Nagafen PvP. It was very fun and pvp happened spontaneously while questing or exploring. People got ganked, so they would call their guildies for help, then by the time you knew it, there would be 2 full raid groups killing each other. It was pretty much like WoW's openworld pvp (tarren mill/southshore), before they added battlegrounds.
World pvp has it drawbacks though, most notably lag, and the uncoordinated mess that follows. Some people prefer smaller teams with objectives and rewards, and that's why instanced pvp is very popular. It offers a more controlled and coordinated environment with less lag. This is also why people prefer instanced dungeons/raids to openworld raids.
Oddly enough, if a game is well designed it doesn't take much for PvP to work. Everquest proved that twice being created first and foremost (if not entirely) for PvE and RP. Not to say there weren't a few adjustments with certain spells and pvp resists, but otherwise it was just a matter of flipping the switch and things worked.
When a game has so much competition and drama without pvp, it works beautifully when PvP is allowed. 100% organic competition with no castles or other additives. Those elements have been lacking almost entirely from all these big PvP titles.
Bring back PvE and PvP servers!
You go to your server. I'll go to mine.
And don't gimp my archer on my PvE server based on what the PvP crowd is whining about that week. Waa waa waaa, he's overpowered, waaaaaaaaaaaaa.
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lol, yea, stopped reading when you claimed EQ2 had the best pvp ever :P
dark age of camelot tends to disagree.
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I t hink the problem is the Megaserver mentality. Devs should provide a server for any kind of player.
- PVP
- PVE
- RP
- Progression
- Casual
and so on. People have different preferences.
- Albert Einstein
EQ1 had PVE servers and PVP servers with different rulesets. I played on a server called Sullon Zek which had a different rule set to the other two PVP servers of Tallon and Vallon Vek.
On sullen the PVP was based on what god you worshiped. I am a PVE player first and foremost but it's not hard to make different servers for the same game.
Keep PVP and PVE on different servers.
You might want to look at this if you haven't already http://crowfall.com/#/
Did I just read this right? You think EQ2 PvP was the best PvP ever created in an MMO?? EQ2 had horrible PvP. If I had to name a few games with horrible PvP, it would have to be EQ, LOTRO and FFXIV.
1. Many games have this. WoW has had it since launch and I would argue that it works way better in WOW.
2. You are contradicting yourself. YOu are saying that there are no safe zones but NPCs will one shot you? In WoW you had massive city raids. Not just infiltrating a city. You had 200-300 players from each faction and start having a massive massacre. EQ2 doesn't even come close. WoW still has that and there are no safe zones there too (ok maybe shattrath) but still. World PvP exists in WoW to this day it's just that no one wants to do it.
3. Again same as in many other MMOs.
4. Right! So you are saying that I am questing and someone kills me, that's random? Then WoW has the most alive PvP ever. Back in the days you would constantly get PvP action in STV, BRM and the isle of slaughter (TBC sunwell island). WoW also has battlegrounds, world zones and arenas ON TOP of everything you said.
5. I don't see the point of this. But players in WoW also drop gold when you kill them.
I am just clueless as how you think EQ2 has epic PvP. I mean WoW did World PvP better in every single way. I can link you to tons of epic PvP videos showing massive city raids to gankfests across the zones to people actively world pvping.
I think the only games that you could've picked which have worse PvP are LOTRO and FFXIV.
I think it's all about rewards. Give WoW players an incentive to do city raids and they will do it 24/7. If the city leaders dropped the best PvP gear, I bet you that you will see city raids 24/7. Although that would probably crash the servers from having 500-1000 people in one place.
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No, just no.
This may be true in MOBAs but in full scale MMORPG individuals should never be on equal ground. A fully armored knight will beat an archer in melee 10/10, while a good ranger beats several lightly armored bandits from a distance.
MMORPGs should have PvP but not for the sake of having PvP. There has to be a PvE goal that makes PvP happen, and in massive multiplayer game PvP should always be balanced around groups, not individuals. This means collision detection, taunts working in PvP, etc.
Just like in real battle, fights are never fair or balanced. We kill boss mobs and craft weapons and armors to improve our competence in battle, and that applies also for PvP. In massive multiplayer game PvP should mean tanks, dps, buffers and healers, just like in PvE.
Of course there should be ways to change your fighting style for duels when needed, but i can't see how a fight between a warrior and a wizard could ever be balanced or fair.