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The ESO/Wildstar fiasco. Lessons learned?

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  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009

    God forbid people come to an MMO site to talk about new MMOs.

    Even if an MMO flops and is terrible a lot of people still generally put enough time into the game to justify its asking price. Tons of people pay full box price for 10-15hr single player games.

    I don't really get why people get angry and consider games a rip-off if they don't provide people with perfect entertainment for multiple years.

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    ESO was created by a company of no experience with doing MMOs. I think the problems are thus understandable. As far as I know, its getting slowly fixed. I never was very interested in ESO, though.

     

     

    World of Warcraft was created by a company with no experience in making MMO's. So whats your point?

    Yup! and WoW had more problems with it at launch than I have fingers and toes. Probably more problems that fingers and toes of a human/octopus cross. I guess it was from a simpler time when all MMOs were broken, so it didn't really surprise anyone. These days, since we've perfected the process of developing and releasing MMORPGs to market, expectations are, understandably, higher. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • NotimeforbsNotimeforbs Member CommonPosts: 346
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Notimeforbs
    Originally posted by whisperwynd
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Lesson learned?

    LESSON LEARNED!!!!?!?!?!

     

    where the hell were you during the Darkfall 1 hype train

    or the Warhammer Hype train,

    or the Gw2 hype train

    or the Archeage hype train

    or the Aion hype train

    or the SWTOR hype train

    huh?!?!?!?

    you people keep saying you LLEEAARRNNEEDD A LESSON 

    BUT YOU KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES DAMNIT!

    i risk my account getting banned here for years trying to expose these overhyped MMOs so people wouldn't get mislead by bull shit marketing, and buying into the bull shit, 

     

    and each and every single time somebody comes with a post like this about learning a lesson, but then a year later they doing the same damn thing!!!!

    iam done. I have to let you people make your own mistakes and get taken advantage of. Because I am tired of this!

    Finally figured out that some things people must learn by themselves did you?

     

    Guess you could even say lesson learned!

    image

    My guess is No. He'll be back with the same threads/polls like always.  image

    I vaguely remember getting into an argument with him about ESO.  He would argue with 2+2=4 if for whatever reason it didn't line up with his way of thinking.

     

    Also... for the record.  ESO is not going F2P.  It's going B2P - like Guild Wars 2.  You still have to purchase the game.  It's still a dick move, though.

    Except it isn't, the only difference between SW;TOR, Archeage and ESO is that ESO will also have a box price, other than that it will be a F2P/P2P hybrid, more than likely before too long the box price will also be removed, probably within the next 3 - 4 months.image

    Speculation based on nothing.

     

    Anytime someone tries to say GW2 is F2P, everyone loses their shit because they have to sepcify "It's B2P."  When in reality, the only difference between it and any F2P game is that you have to buy the box.  Apparently, that's enough of a difference to warrant specificity.

     

    And in the spirit of that - ESO is NOT going F2P.  It's going B2P.  You have to buy the box.  But you don't have to pay a subscription.  It will essentially take on GW2's business model.  And given that game's success, there is no reason to assume that ESO will have to drop its box price.

  • DestaiDestai Member Posts: 574
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Destai
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Lesson learned?

    LESSON LEARNED!!!!?!?!?!

     

    where the hell were you during the Darkfall 1 hype train

    or the Warhammer Hype train,

    or the Gw2 hype train

    or the Archeage hype train

    or the Aion hype train

    or the SWTOR hype train

    huh?!?!?!?

    you people keep saying you LLEEAARRNNEEDD A LESSON 

    BUT YOU KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES DAMNIT!

    i risk my account getting banned here for years trying to expose these overhyped MMOs so people wouldn't get mislead by bull shit marketing, and buying into the bull shit, 

     

    and each and every single time somebody comes with a post like this about learning a lesson, but then a year later they doing the same damn thing!!!!

    iam done. I have to let you people make your own mistakes and get taken advantage of. Because I am tired of this!

    Dude, you're a joke Seriously. What kind of BS marketing are you pushing on people, like you're some sort of authority on this? Get over yourself. People get excited about games and want to believe in them. It's not like people are ignorant to the fact that games have marketing departments and change their direction after launch. You want to contribute? Start doing some cost analysis of what it takes to play a f2p game vs a sub game. 

    There's your problem right there... fun has nothing to do with cost... justifying does.  You've already lost the fun as soon as you break out the slide rule...

    I agree. I'm speaking more to his mission of exposing the supposed lies and misleading tactics. Either a game is fun or not. If I see pay walls, it's not fun. I don't need an analysis. 

  • vadio123vadio123 Member UncommonPosts: 593
    Market 101 : you dont need develop mmo/game anymore you need hype extreme and ma ke customer buy thing dont exist and can abadon develop fews moth later 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Destai
     

    I agree. I'm speaking more to his mission of exposing the supposed lies and misleading tactics. Either a game is fun or not. If I see pay walls, it's not fun. I don't need an analysis. 

    It can be fun BEFORE hitting the wall.

     

  • PulsarManPulsarMan Member Posts: 289

    The only lesson I've learned is that people on the internet get waaaay too excited or waaaaay too cynical about something new.

    It's silly because you're really just watching the same kind of personalities arguing with each other. The cynical person just being a former excited person who has been burned enough to be jaded and possibly a bit angry.

    New games come out every year. It's perfectly normal to be excited for something, only to simply move on when it does not live up to your expectations or you become bored. If you get so excited for a piece of entertainment that you turn into a frothy mouthed turd when it doesn't turn out the way you had hoped, you may want to do some self evaluation. 

    Move on! New games will come. No one thinks you're wise and informed simply because you express cynical skepticism in an attempt to counter the excited masses. 

  • sketocafesketocafe Member UncommonPosts: 950
    I learned that most of the people bitching about ESO never really played it. I didn't learn shit about Wildstar, other than that I can still trust my judgement on MMOs.
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,654
    Originally posted by sketocafe
    I learned that most of the people bitching about ESO never really played it. I didn't learn shit about Wildstar, other than that I can still trust my judgement on MMOs.

    What this guy said.

    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Both games were fairly fun for different reasons.  Neither game's combat surpassed WOW.  So it's like all the other MMORPGs: they were generally worth my time (except for rare exceptions like Aion and Darkfall which weren't) and I enjoyed my time with them and felt my money was well-spent, but I'm inevitably back playing WOW because there's not a lot of reason to play a second-best PVE MMORPG.

    ESO's world integrity in particular was outstanding.  Wildstar wasn't nearly as serious, but the goofy creativity was interesting in its own way.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • CatAtomic99CatAtomic99 Member UncommonPosts: 62

    Wildstar proved that catering to the 'hardcore raid crowd' at the expense of everyone else is suicide, because they're a microscopic minority.

     

    For years I've heard them shout about how studios need to put them first in development plans, so if nothing else good comes from Wildstar's tribulations, we do at least have a final, definitive piece of proof that those demands should be ignored.

     

    Wildstar is a fun game at it's core, and should've been much more targeted at the casual gamer who dabbles in PvP and raiding. Much more development time should've been devoted to the PvE world as opposed to raiding; the leveling up process should've been much more varied, with several paths available to max level, and it should've taken longer to reach max level.

     

    ESO proved that a single player series based on total freedom does not make a good themepark MMO IP-- or at least, that it comes with it's own unique challenge. Most of the disappointment around ESO came from the wide chasm between the ESO experience and the Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind experience.

     

    I think ESO should've been more pre-NGE Star Wars Galaxies than World of Warcraft. I mean, let's face it-- combat has never been the series' strong suit. It's appeal is the freedom it offered the player. Fans wanted a coop Skyrim-- not a browner WoW.

  • KaladinKaladin Member Posts: 468
    Originally posted by CatAtomic99

    Wildstar proved that catering to the 'hardcore raid crowd' at the expense of everyone else is suicide

    You're right, that would be suicide.  Good thing Wildstar didn't do that.  Unless casuals and/or solo players require easy content, which would not necessarily go with my definition of casual.  But even so, nothing other than veteran dungeons and raids are difficult or time consuming.

    I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
    And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
    Hurt - Wars

  • zzaxzzax Member UncommonPosts: 324
    Originally posted by ESSKA
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Lesson learned?

    LESSON LEARNED!!!!?!?!?!

     

    where the hell were you during the Darkfall 1 hype train

    or the Warhammer Hype train,

    or the Gw2 hype train

    or the Archeage hype train

    or the Aion hype train

    or the SWTOR hype train

    huh?!?!?!?

    you people keep saying you LLEEAARRNNEEDD A LESSON 

    BUT YOU KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES DAMNIT!

    i risk my account getting banned here for years trying to expose these overhyped MMOs so people wouldn't get mislead by bull shit marketing, and buying into the bull shit, 

     

    and each and every single time somebody comes with a post like this about learning a lesson, but then a year later they doing the same damn thing!!!!

    iam done. I have to let you people make your own mistakes and get taken advantage of. Because I am tired of this!

    (...) people should go do their own research on a game before listening to anyone on this website.

    Some people dont have time to do detailed research on every "next-fail-wannabe" MMO on the market. I really appreciate someone else doing it for me - saves me money and time.

  • KaladinKaladin Member Posts: 468
    Originally posted by zzax
    Originally posted by ESSKA
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Lesson learned?

    LESSON LEARNED!!!!?!?!?!

     

    where the hell were you during the Darkfall 1 hype train

    or the Warhammer Hype train,

    or the Gw2 hype train

    or the Archeage hype train

    or the Aion hype train

    or the SWTOR hype train

    huh?!?!?!?

    you people keep saying you LLEEAARRNNEEDD A LESSON 

    BUT YOU KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES DAMNIT!

    i risk my account getting banned here for years trying to expose these overhyped MMOs so people wouldn't get mislead by bull shit marketing, and buying into the bull shit, 

     

    and each and every single time somebody comes with a post like this about learning a lesson, but then a year later they doing the same damn thing!!!!

    iam done. I have to let you people make your own mistakes and get taken advantage of. Because I am tired of this!

    (...) people should go do their own research on a game before listening to anyone on this website.

    Some people dont have time to do detailed research on every "next-fail-wannabe" MMO on the market. I really appreciate someone else doing it for me - saves me money and time.

    Nothing wrong with this approach in my opinion.  as long as you are certain that you share similar interests with the reviewer.

    I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
    And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
    Hurt - Wars

  • CatAtomic99CatAtomic99 Member UncommonPosts: 62
    Originally posted by Kaladin
    Originally posted by CatAtomic99

    Wildstar proved that catering to the 'hardcore raid crowd' at the expense of everyone else is suicide

    You're right, that would be suicide.  Good thing Wildstar didn't do that.  Unless casuals and/or solo players require easy content, which would not necessarily go with my definition of casual.  But even so, nothing other than veteran dungeons and raids are difficult or time consuming.

    Not easy, no-- just a certain pace. I loved Wildstar's content up to fifty-- even the difficulty seemed spot-on to me, but then I just hit a wall. I personally would've been very happy if the trip to fifty had taken a lot longer, and I'd had to really explore everything to get there. And had several paths to get there.

    I recently heard they're pushing more towards smaller groups/solo gamers/casuals/etc. with new shiphand missions and things. I really hope they can dial things in just right because as I said, I think it's an awesome game-- it's just slightly askew in a few small, but incredibly important aspects. Like watching a great movie that's just a tad out of focus and it's fucking the whole experience.

  • KaladinKaladin Member Posts: 468
    Originally posted by CatAtomic99
    Originally posted by Kaladin
    Originally posted by CatAtomic99

    Wildstar proved that catering to the 'hardcore raid crowd' at the expense of everyone else is suicide

    You're right, that would be suicide.  Good thing Wildstar didn't do that.  Unless casuals and/or solo players require easy content, which would not necessarily go with my definition of casual.  But even so, nothing other than veteran dungeons and raids are difficult or time consuming.

    Not easy, no-- just a certain pace. I loved Wildstar's content up to fifty-- even the difficulty seemed spot-on to me, but then I just hit a wall. I personally would've been very happy if the trip to fifty had taken a lot longer, and I'd had to really explore everything to get there. And had several paths to get there.

    I recently heard they're pushing more towards smaller groups/solo gamers/casuals/etc. with new shiphand missions and things. I really hope they can dial things in just right because as I said, I think it's an awesome game-- it's just slightly askew in a few small, but incredibly important aspects. Like watching a great movie that's just a tad out of focus and it's fucking the whole experience.

    Yep, there is a lot riding on Drop 4 in the first week of February, and Drop 5 which is sounding like it is going to rework PvP.  They have a roundtable with players on Feb 8th to discuss pvp changes.  So, if Drop 4 and 5 don't come off well, the game will have problems overall.  They've also got NCSoft's backing to make a big PR push when things are fixed, so I have my fingers crossed, but only time will tell.

    I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
    And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
    Hurt - Wars

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Distopia
    I'd like to learn a lesson on what some people are reading about these games before they release, that leaves them so disappointed after all is said and done, because it's obviously not what i am reading.

    It's not the words on the paper that leave them disappointed. It's the imagination they let spiral out of control over every nugget of information revealed.

    A dev may say something like 'our game will have pvp bunkers that can be customized for a player's needs'. The player takes that and is imaging a full sandbox feature in which they can literally design every millimeter however they want and create their own functioning electronics & security system.

    The devs deliver a bunker that is customizable to a person's loadout, has storage for weapons & armor and maybe some custom skins, and are immediately branded liars because they didn't deliver the sandbox dream feature they never promised.

    - It's also one of the reasons devs tend to be hesitant about revealing certain aspects of the game. If they don't, people assume they have no confidence in their own game / it's going to suck. However if they say something that is currently true, but some complication happens down the line and requires them to change it, people assume they were lied to and that devs designed it all from the start to scam people out of their moneys.

    That's about all I can see in it as as well.I always tend to think small with games when i read about them, I expect to be familiar with it's mechanics, I expect some slight nuances, and not much more. Sometimes I'm surprised yet rarely letdown, my expectations are usually met. It's not like I think small because I've been burned in some way, I've just always looked at gaming that way, innovation is a slow road in general gaming development, and even slower in MMO's.

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • JDis25JDis25 Member RarePosts: 1,353

    I generally only talk about the things I like, about the games I actually am playing. And if I do criticize it is because I like the game and want it to succeed. I must be doing something wrong.

    Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War
    Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
  • nukeguynukeguy Member Posts: 9
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Both games were fairly fun for different reasons.  Neither game's combat surpassed WOW.  So it's like all the other MMORPGs: they were generally worth my time (except for rare exceptions like Aion and Darkfall which weren't) and I enjoyed my time with them and felt my money was well-spent, but I'm inevitably back playing WOW because there's not a lot of reason to play a second-best PVE MMORPG.

    ESO's world integrity in particular was outstanding.  Wildstar wasn't nearly as serious, but the goofy creativity was interesting in its own way.

    Not picking on you because what we like is our own, but for me WoW isn't the baseline I compare other games to, especially not the combat. WoW combat isn't better than any other tab-target rng based system. TOR, EQ2, LotRO, and Rift all have combat that is as good or better than WoW.

    For action combat I compare it to Neverwinter and Tera. Those have the best combat of any MMO I've played. I haven't played ESO long enough to get a great feel for it and I don't think it's better than those, but it's fun.

    I don't think of Wildstar or ESO or any other game out right now a second-best to WoW. WoW is definitely more popular, much like Justin Bieber, but I don't think Bieber makes better music than my favorite musicians either. 

    The reason why WoW can mandate a sub is that it has the mass and inertia of broad appeal. Studios like Carbine, ZMO, Turbine, SoE or most others don't have that same whitewash. Subs are for mass appeal or very niche games that don't have the same financial pressure as most MMOs have.

    Have you played AoC?  Combat in Neverwinter and especially Tera get extremely boring IMO.  Yes its "action" but i personally wouldnt call it any better than WoW or the other games you metioned especially LOTRO boring!

  • advokat666advokat666 Member UncommonPosts: 93
    Originally posted by syntax42
    Originally posted by Satyros
    Originally posted by Shodanas

    @OP: Can you elaborate on how ESO is a fiasco?

    Before you proceed do check on a dictionary the word "fiasco".

     

    I consider lying to your fanbase and plotting against them behind their backs a pretty humiliating fail (also called a fiasco) for a company.

     

    What did ESO do to lie and/or plot against their fanbase?  I'm no fan of the game, but for reasons of game design choices instead of something political.  If they said they would never go F2P and you're mad because they are now, that is just how business works.  You can't remain static if your business isn't successful.  You can't remain static even if it is.

    Want an example ?

    i have one for you

    Quote from Matt Firror pre Lauch

    "We will make sure that no matter where you live, every player in North America, Europe, Oceania and many places beyond, will have a polished, lag-free launch experience."

    Source:

    http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/2014/03/14/eso-road-ahead

    Launch was a mess. Story Quests were bugged which hindered your advancement to the veteran levels. And i mean not for days, for weeks. A friend of mine was unable to advance his character past 50 for two weeks because of a quest bug and gm´s were either unwilling or unable to help him. After two weeks they got a patch out and fixed most of the crucial bugged quests.

    Lag in Cyrodiil was a mess, more than 30-40 players on one location and it was nearly unplayable. If more players concentrated on one place the campaign got rolled back to a previous state, everybody got kicked out and when logged in again keeps, towers had their owners reset to a state 5 - 15 minutes before.

    I mean i played ESO mainly for mass PvP and it turned out to be a total mess. And i don´t even speak about map size, mechanics etc. i only speak about performance.

    The only really positive thing i can say about ESO is that it was the MMO with the best level experience i had since the days of Lord of The Rings Online. The story they told was awesome imo.

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Member UncommonPosts: 2,392

    There is a real temptation to rant about ESO.The promise was  it would be the successor to DAOC in an Elder Scrolls world.The reality id far different.

    AVA still has major technical stability problems.BUGS remain.....no new features have been added in over 6 months..in fact some have been removed. AVA subscribers feel their subscription money went to console and pve development NO time frame has been given for ANY AVA new features.

    For me...this means I will "unlimit" myself from the shackles of a subscription on March 17.Too bad I can't do it sooner.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by NightHaveN
    A EDO a coop experience. With the group and phasing issues. It was a glorified single player, but far from what a real multiplayer should have been.

     

    the question i have is .. is it a good single player game?

  • yourownfearyourownfear Member Posts: 6
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    Lesson learned?

    LESSON LEARNED!!!!?!?!?!

     

    where the hell were you during the Darkfall 1 hype train

    or the Warhammer Hype train,

    or the Gw2 hype train

    or the Archeage hype train

    or the Aion hype train

    or the SWTOR hype train

    huh?!?!?!?

    you people keep saying you LLEEAARRNNEEDD A LESSON 

    BUT YOU KEEP MAKING THE SAME MISTAKES DAMNIT!

    i risk my account getting banned here for years trying to expose these overhyped MMOs so people wouldn't get mislead by bull shit marketing, and buying into the bull shit, 

     

    and each and every single time somebody comes with a post like this about learning a lesson, but then a year later they doing the same damn thing!!!!

    iam done. I have to let you people make your own mistakes and get taken advantage of. Because I am tired of this!

    I'm sorry but did I miss something with GW2? The game did well and still does well. It's a b2p game with no pay to win aspect that a lot of people enjoyed and it sold well. Still has a lot of players to this day. It may have had stability issues at launch like every other online game these days but it for sure doesn't deserve to make your little list of games.

  • Jasper300Jasper300 Member Posts: 62

    Dude !

     

    Then what do we do ?

     

    What game do we play ??????

     

    The only game out there that is satisfying me is eve online........

     

    ive considering trying The forest. Any thoughts ?

  • WolfsheadWolfshead Member UncommonPosts: 224
    I still keep play ESO have been doing since went live last year and i will still play ESO for long time.
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