Can SBFord or one of the other "B2P" advocates explain to me what the perceived difference is between B2P with Item Mall and a F2P game?
B2P is simply paying for the game... like buying milk at the supermarket... you see the milk, you buy it, you take the milk home and consume it. That's it.
Thats interesting because I play most MMOs for about the same amount of time as it takes for me to consume a gallon of milk.
Everyone thought Guild wars 2 with b2p would revive the MMO genre. Swtor is resurrected using a f2p model, while ff14 is resurrected using a P2P model.
Elder scrolls online on PC wont be a savior just because it switched to b2p, but it will have better sales on console. I find that Artcraft did the right thing when they went with a B2P model because it would be inevitable that it wouldn't make it as P2P. Calling it a savior is silly though.
Here are two important questions regarding F2P games like Neverwinter and Archeage.
Do you think they would they have made more money as a B2P game compared to F2P?
Would they have been better games with a different model?
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Can SBFord or one of the other "B2P" advocates explain to me what the perceived difference is between B2P with Item Mall and a F2P game?
B2P is simply paying for the game... like buying milk at the supermarket... you see the milk, you buy it, you take the milk home and consume it. That's it. They charged you a price that recovers the cost of marketing the milk, packaging, and producing the milk, plus a maintenance fee (to cover the loss due to spoilage/contamination) plus some profit (because no one is in business to break even).
Do you realize you're basing your definition on what you want it to be, not what it actually is in regards to MMOs?
No, that is what B2P is... literally. Just because developers sell their games under the guise of B2P to hide the fact that it is indeed a vending machine game, doesn't change the fact that B2P is literally what I stated. What you are referring to is the hybrid model which is not B2P but a combination thereof. You'd have to go back a good number of years to find a true B2P game...
I'm not looking for a business model... I'm looking for a good game... the problem is, everyone gets so wrapped up in the financial practices of a gaming company that it detracts from the real issue at hand... the game just isn't that good. It's a tried and true method of confusing the issue... if they're too busy complaining about a cash shop or P2W or whatever, they won't blatantly point out that the game just flat out sucks. I mean really, this whole thread is moot because the problem has nothing to do with how they acquire their income. Zero. Nada. It's like discussing why the sky is blue when you are concerned about how hot it is outside. But that is what this site is all about, discussing the superfluous whilst ignoring the obvious.
You have obviously never played either Guild Wars 2 or TSW neither lack population and both are buy to play . I imagine you have made an assumption based on nothing more than your own personal belief that buy to play games would lack population without testing one out to see if it was accurate or not .
Personally I like buy to play . Its the most honest model . You pay for something that has already been developed and you are not locked out of various features unlike free to play games ( which for the most part are more like very long trials ) . Also you pay for DLCs when they are developed rather than a monthly free to the promise of a patch that is in development .
Ultimately anyone against this model is on pretty thin ice because I would imagine they have played many single player games which use the exact same model and I imagine without any problem with it at all .
Personally I like buy to play . Its the most honest model . You pay for something that has already been developed and you are not locked out of various features unlike free to play games ( which for the most part are more like very long trials ) . Also you pay for DLCs when they are developed rather than a monthly free to the promise of a patch that is in development .
Ultimately anyone against this model is on pretty thin ice because I would imagine they have played many single player games which use the exact same model and I imagine without any problem with it at all .
That would be true, if MMOs B2P model would not use any kind of microtransactions, and would have ONLY big DLCs or expansions.
Can SBFord or one of the other "B2P" advocates explain to me what the perceived difference is between B2P with Item Mall and a F2P game?
B2P is simply paying for the game... like buying milk at the supermarket... you see the milk, you buy it, you take the milk home and consume it. That's it. They charged you a price that recovers the cost of marketing the milk, packaging, and producing the milk, plus a maintenance fee (to cover the loss due to spoilage/contamination) plus some profit (because no one is in business to break even).
Do you realize you're basing your definition on what you want it to be, not what it actually is in regards to MMOs?
No, that is what B2P is... literally. Just because developers sell their games under the guise of B2P to hide the fact that it is indeed a vending machine game, doesn't change the fact that B2P is literally what I stated. What you are referring to is the hybrid model which is not B2P but a combination thereof. You'd have to go back a good number of years to find a true B2P game...
No one is arguing that at all. The business model in regards to MMOs (which is the topic being discussed here) is a client charge in front of a microtransaction or paid update business model. That is why I specifically stated "B2P with Item Mall" and not "B2P" in my question as the latter is neither probable nor profitable in today's MMO arena.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by vandal5627 How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever? Different sure, but dead? No way Jose.
Because there are less MMO's releasing every year. Is there even one MMORPG coming out this year?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by vandal5627 How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever? Different sure, but dead? No way Jose.
Because there are less MMO's releasing every year. Is there even one MMORPG coming out this year?
LOL, you can't be for reals. That's the reason? LMAO
Originally posted by vandal5627 How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever? Different sure, but dead? No way Jose.
Because there are less MMO's releasing every year. Is there even one MMORPG coming out this year?
LOL, you can't be for reals. That's the reason? LMAO
I am for "reals". What MMO is releasing this year?
Real B2P for any game with an online component hardly even exists any more. Once upon a time B2P classics like Half-Life sold you the game and opened it up to modders who then created some amazing free DLC mpds with it. As soon as developers started controlling and monetizing DLC, B2P became a misnomer.
The only distinction that exists today between B2P MMOs and F2P is in how much pressure they put on the player to use the cash shop. F2P games put a lot of pressure on you because that is the only revenue stream. B2P MMOs can afford to have a more restrained cash shop because they are getting additional revenue from the entry fee.
But even that is not a given. GW2 has always had built in pressure to spend more money with crippled character slots, bank space, the seduction of locked chests and RMT through gem conversion. In that respect, GW2 clearly is "F2P with an entry fee."
TSW has a lesser amount of pressure and ESO, at least at the beginning, will be more like the TSW shop. But ESO is also focusing on selling whole zones as content that has to be bought or which you can use if you're subscribed. When those start rolling out their own unique sort of pressure to pay more will also exist.
Crowfall is taking a different approach with another benign cash shop but they are also bringing in EVE's RMT model of subscription months for sale as another revenue stream.
Four B2P MMOs with 4 different schemes for making more money beyond the box sales. And none of them, despite what they say in their ads, really want you to "buy once and play forever"... that's just the sales pitch and they're all banking on you buying many more times.
But revive the genre? As others have said, if the genre is going to get a boost, it won't be from revenue models - it'll be because of excellent game play.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by vandal5627 How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever? Different sure, but dead? No way Jose.
Because there are less MMO's releasing every year. Is there even one MMORPG coming out this year?
LOL, you can't be for reals. That's the reason? LMAO
I am for "reals". What MMO is releasing this year?
Does it matter? That's not even close to a good reason for the genre to be DYING. Get real.
Originally posted by vandal5627 How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever? Different sure, but dead? No way Jose.
Why do you think there is more people playjng genre than ever?
Western MMO, and especially MMORPG market seem to look otherwise.
Several companies that dealt mainly in MMORPGs underwent heavy restructurisations and scaling down, few AAA MMORPG projects got cancelled, few other MMO projects got retrofitted from MMO to MOBA or other type of online game in mid-developement (and most of them cancelled later on), traffic on MMO sites seem down, many non-commercial MMO blogs shut down or retrofitted into general gaming blogs.
Originally posted by vandal5627 How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever? Different sure, but dead? No way Jose.
Why do you think there is more people playjng genre than ever?
Western MMO, and especially MMORPG market seem to look otherwise.
Several companies that dealt mainly in MMORPGs underwent heavy restructurisations and scaling down, few AAA MMORPG projects got cancelled, few other MMO projects got retrofitted from MMO to MOBA or other type of online game in mid-developement (and most of them cancelled later on), traffic on MMO sites seem down, many non-commercial MMO blogs shut down or retrofitted into general gaming blogs.
Sure it was never better.
So a few things happen and you call the genre dying? How about the millions that are still playing WOW. How about ESO still releasing on the consoles. How about ARR having millions of Registered Users and probably about 500k subs and is releasing an expansion soon. How about Lineage still domniating in the EAST. I could go on and on.
How the hell is that dying? Just look at this site alone regarding MMOs being developed. Dying my *****. Dying to you because you don't like the direction it's going but Dying? Oh please, Get Real.
Originally posted by vandal5627 How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever? Different sure, but dead? No way Jose.
Why do you think there is more people playjng genre than ever?
Western MMO, and especially MMORPG market seem to look otherwise.
Several companies that dealt mainly in MMORPGs underwent heavy restructurisations and scaling down, few AAA MMORPG projects got cancelled, few other MMO projects got retrofitted from MMO to MOBA or other type of online game in mid-developement (and most of them cancelled later on), traffic on MMO sites seem down, many non-commercial MMO blogs shut down or retrofitted into general gaming blogs.
Sure it was never better.
So a few things happen and you call the genre dying? How about the millions that are still playing WOW. How about ESO still releasing on the consoles. How about ARR having millions of Registered Users and probably about 500k subs and is releasing an expansion soon. How about Lineage still domniating in the EAST. I could go on and on.
How the hell is that dying? Just look at this site alone regarding MMOs being developed. Dying my *****. Dying to you because you don't like the direction it's going but Dying? Oh please, Get Real.
If you have a problem with word "dying" someone used, you will have to direct it to this someone else.
In my opinion MMORPGs are in downward trend and for a good reasons. So I don't think MMORPG genre will be out of this downward trend in foresable future.
Originally posted by vandal5627 How is the genre dead when there's more games available to play as well as more people playing ever? Different sure, but dead? No way Jose.
Why do you think there is more people playjng genre than ever?
Western MMO, and especially MMORPG market seem to look otherwise.
Several companies that dealt mainly in MMORPGs underwent heavy restructurisations and scaling down, few AAA MMORPG projects got cancelled, few other MMO projects got retrofitted from MMO to MOBA or other type of online game in mid-developement (and most of them cancelled later on), traffic on MMO sites seem down, many non-commercial MMO blogs shut down or retrofitted into general gaming blogs.
Sure it was never better.
So a few things happen and you call the genre dying? How about the millions that are still playing WOW. How about ESO still releasing on the consoles. How about ARR having millions of Registered Users and probably about 500k subs and is releasing an expansion soon. How about Lineage still domniating in the EAST. I could go on and on.
How the hell is that dying? Just look at this site alone regarding MMOs being developed. Dying my *****. Dying to you because you don't like the direction it's going but Dying? Oh please, Get Real.
If you have a problem with word "dying" someone used, you will have to direct it to this someone else.
In my opinion MMORPGs are in downward trend and for a good reasons. So I don't think MMORPG genre will be out of this downward trend in foresable future.
Please tell me these good reasons you're implying here.
I am not o sure that changing payment model will do much to revive the genre, a good game will have plenty of players no matter what payment model it have.
But I still like B2P better than F2P, with B2P you already get in some money from start so you can let the itemshop be far less impacting on the gameplay. You also get rid of a lot of the goldspammers.
But to revive the genre we need a new big game that doesn't really feel like anything we played before. And I am critical that Crowfall can do that but nothing would make me happier than being wrong there.
There are plenty of "good" games, that are free... so i'd change that to say, an exceptional game will generate plenty of players, regardless of the paywall...
Hence the reason so many games have to turn F2P, they're not exactly bad games, they just aren't much better than those you can play at a lower price or free..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by goboygo You know what would do it? A really good MMO.
ArcheAge would've done very well as a B2P game. The gameplay is actually fantastic. However, the P2W schemes completely killed it for me. I've never seen such a good game be brought down so bad due to an ignorant Cash Shop.
Fantastic game play? I must have been playing a different ArcheAge than you. The game play of ArcheAge from my experience was stale, hitchy, and empty. The combat glitched out so much at times and the world was void and empty lacking any resemblance of life in most areas and especially in cities. The UI was ancient and limited.
ArcheAge would have failed no matter what monetary model they used due to so many in game issues and ones created by the publisher and developers.
It's not enough to generate more players. Good game design is. There isn't any guarantee that these B2P players will stick around as long as a subscriber would, or a F2P player. However, it's a balance between devs and players. The devs will get paid, and the players should always get access. After the initial purchase, it's up to the devs to keep them interested.
A balanced cash shop could then be used to generate extra cash, as long as it isn't p2w, or doesn't have anything that restricts people or separates them, such as DLC content found in singleplayer games. Hybrid, and tiered models, are a mess if done badly, just look at Lotro for example. GW2, Tera, and Rift's cash shops show that it can be done without being p2w. Their models are either p4c, or sub for convenience, but last i checked, nothing was p2w.
Comments
Thats interesting because I play most MMOs for about the same amount of time as it takes for me to consume a gallon of milk.
No wonder they're going B2P.
Everyone thought Guild wars 2 with b2p would revive the MMO genre. Swtor is resurrected using a f2p model, while ff14 is resurrected using a P2P model.
Elder scrolls online on PC wont be a savior just because it switched to b2p, but it will have better sales on console. I find that Artcraft did the right thing when they went with a B2P model because it would be inevitable that it wouldn't make it as P2P. Calling it a savior is silly though.
Here are two important questions regarding F2P games like Neverwinter and Archeage.
No, that is what B2P is... literally. Just because developers sell their games under the guise of B2P to hide the fact that it is indeed a vending machine game, doesn't change the fact that B2P is literally what I stated. What you are referring to is the hybrid model which is not B2P but a combination thereof. You'd have to go back a good number of years to find a true B2P game...
I'm not looking for a business model... I'm looking for a good game... the problem is, everyone gets so wrapped up in the financial practices of a gaming company that it detracts from the real issue at hand... the game just isn't that good. It's a tried and true method of confusing the issue... if they're too busy complaining about a cash shop or P2W or whatever, they won't blatantly point out that the game just flat out sucks. I mean really, this whole thread is moot because the problem has nothing to do with how they acquire their income. Zero. Nada. It's like discussing why the sky is blue when you are concerned about how hot it is outside. But that is what this site is all about, discussing the superfluous whilst ignoring the obvious.
You have obviously never played either Guild Wars 2 or TSW neither lack population and both are buy to play . I imagine you have made an assumption based on nothing more than your own personal belief that buy to play games would lack population without testing one out to see if it was accurate or not .
No.
Same as F2P did not save MMORPGs.
This is because being subscription-only games was not a reason that MMORPGs eventually fallen in downward trend.
Take note: I am talking strictly about narrow defined MMORPGs, not about other types of MMO or other type of online games.
Whole discussion is a silly for other reason as well- B2P in MMO is nothing else than F2P with upftont "box" cost.
Personally I like buy to play . Its the most honest model . You pay for something that has already been developed and you are not locked out of various features unlike free to play games ( which for the most part are more like very long trials ) . Also you pay for DLCs when they are developed rather than a monthly free to the promise of a patch that is in development .
Ultimately anyone against this model is on pretty thin ice because I would imagine they have played many single player games which use the exact same model and I imagine without any problem with it at all .
That would be true, if MMOs B2P model would not use any kind of microtransactions, and would have ONLY big DLCs or expansions.
So your point is invalid.
No one is arguing that at all. The business model in regards to MMOs (which is the topic being discussed here) is a client charge in front of a microtransaction or paid update business model. That is why I specifically stated "B2P with Item Mall" and not "B2P" in my question as the latter is neither probable nor profitable in today's MMO arena.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Because there are less MMO's releasing every year. Is there even one MMORPG coming out this year?
That's exactly how I view it, or you could call it a Subscription game with an optional sub or cash shop, not really seeing the nuances here.
Just can see any change in payment model that will "revive" the MMORPG genre.... going to take some bigger innovation than that I think,.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think good MMOs will revive the genre
But there's the rub, what exactly do you mean by "good" MMO's, I suspect opinions will vary on this one.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
LOL, you can't be for reals. That's the reason? LMAO
I am for "reals". What MMO is releasing this year?
Real B2P for any game with an online component hardly even exists any more. Once upon a time B2P classics like Half-Life sold you the game and opened it up to modders who then created some amazing free DLC mpds with it. As soon as developers started controlling and monetizing DLC, B2P became a misnomer.
The only distinction that exists today between B2P MMOs and F2P is in how much pressure they put on the player to use the cash shop. F2P games put a lot of pressure on you because that is the only revenue stream. B2P MMOs can afford to have a more restrained cash shop because they are getting additional revenue from the entry fee.
But even that is not a given. GW2 has always had built in pressure to spend more money with crippled character slots, bank space, the seduction of locked chests and RMT through gem conversion. In that respect, GW2 clearly is "F2P with an entry fee."
TSW has a lesser amount of pressure and ESO, at least at the beginning, will be more like the TSW shop. But ESO is also focusing on selling whole zones as content that has to be bought or which you can use if you're subscribed. When those start rolling out their own unique sort of pressure to pay more will also exist.
Crowfall is taking a different approach with another benign cash shop but they are also bringing in EVE's RMT model of subscription months for sale as another revenue stream.
Four B2P MMOs with 4 different schemes for making more money beyond the box sales. And none of them, despite what they say in their ads, really want you to "buy once and play forever"... that's just the sales pitch and they're all banking on you buying many more times.
But revive the genre? As others have said, if the genre is going to get a boost, it won't be from revenue models - it'll be because of excellent game play.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Does it matter? That's not even close to a good reason for the genre to be DYING. Get real.
Why do you think there is more people playjng genre than ever?
Western MMO, and especially MMORPG market seem to look otherwise.
Several companies that dealt mainly in MMORPGs underwent heavy restructurisations and scaling down, few AAA MMORPG projects got cancelled, few other MMO projects got retrofitted from MMO to MOBA or other type of online game in mid-developement (and most of them cancelled later on), traffic on MMO sites seem down, many non-commercial MMO blogs shut down or retrofitted into general gaming blogs.
Sure it was never better.
This has surely been said a thousand times but I'm quite certain the payment model has nothing to do with MMORPG success/failure as a genre.
The only thing that ever matters is how good a game is. If an MMORPG is good it'll succeed regardless of the monetization.
The only thing that will revive the genre is a good frikkin game, preferably one that doesn't nickel and dime you to death as well.
So a few things happen and you call the genre dying? How about the millions that are still playing WOW. How about ESO still releasing on the consoles. How about ARR having millions of Registered Users and probably about 500k subs and is releasing an expansion soon. How about Lineage still domniating in the EAST. I could go on and on.
How the hell is that dying? Just look at this site alone regarding MMOs being developed. Dying my *****. Dying to you because you don't like the direction it's going but Dying? Oh please, Get Real.
If you have a problem with word "dying" someone used, you will have to direct it to this someone else.
In my opinion MMORPGs are in downward trend and for a good reasons. So I don't think MMORPG genre will be out of this downward trend in foresable future.
Please tell me these good reasons you're implying here.
There are plenty of "good" games, that are free... so i'd change that to say, an exceptional game will generate plenty of players, regardless of the paywall...
Hence the reason so many games have to turn F2P, they're not exactly bad games, they just aren't much better than those you can play at a lower price or free..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Fantastic game play? I must have been playing a different ArcheAge than you. The game play of ArcheAge from my experience was stale, hitchy, and empty. The combat glitched out so much at times and the world was void and empty lacking any resemblance of life in most areas and especially in cities. The UI was ancient and limited.
ArcheAge would have failed no matter what monetary model they used due to so many in game issues and ones created by the publisher and developers.
It's not enough to generate more players. Good game design is. There isn't any guarantee that these B2P players will stick around as long as a subscriber would, or a F2P player. However, it's a balance between devs and players. The devs will get paid, and the players should always get access. After the initial purchase, it's up to the devs to keep them interested.
A balanced cash shop could then be used to generate extra cash, as long as it isn't p2w, or doesn't have anything that restricts people or separates them, such as DLC content found in singleplayer games. Hybrid, and tiered models, are a mess if done badly, just look at Lotro for example. GW2, Tera, and Rift's cash shops show that it can be done without being p2w. Their models are either p4c, or sub for convenience, but last i checked, nothing was p2w.