I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game? It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
What about your favorite game, ArcheAge? Could that game have succeeded as a Subscription only game in The West? Maybe maybe not. I think it actually might have had a chance to. But whatever success it would have had as a P2P only game, clearly wasn't enough. And I think that mentality is what is hurting this genre.........At least to the point the OP is making.
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game?
It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
Good point. Skyrim's servers seem to maintain 24/7 uptime, and their GMs are some of the best in the industry. How are they on delivering expansions for it? Monthly? Once a year? They are expanding the game, right? Whatever the case, I hear their engine handles PVP battles of 100+ players flawlessly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game? It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
What about your favorite game, ArcheAge? Could that game have succeeded as a Subscription only game in The West? Maybe maybe not. I think it actually might have had a chance to. But whatever success it would have had as a P2P only game, clearly wasn't enough. And I think that mentality is what is hurting this genre.........At least to the point the OP is making.
who is going to invest $$$ to let you make a better game when your previous game is not making money?
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game?
It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
Good point. Skyrim's servers seem to maintain 24/7 uptime, and their GMs are some of the best in the industry. How are they on delivering expansions for it? Monthly? Once a year? They are expanding the game, right? Whatever the case, I hear their engine handles PVP battles of 100+ players flawlessly.
1- Skyrim isn't an mmo. Elder Scrolls Online is an mmo.
2- If he was referrting to Skyrim as en example of a CEO of an mmorpg making a better game to maintain profits, then he is comparing an mmo to a single player game.
3-Elder Scrolls Online is going buy to play with a CASH SHOP - LOL, so that example won't even apply in a few months. If anything, the example validates cash shops.
I know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days.
Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.
But they are not anymore. They are in a store. And the devs get a pat on the back because at least they aren't selling combat buffs.
I guess I just don't belong in this new style of mmorpg. Even my mmo of choice does it. Best I can do is try to ignore it. My preferred play style is becoming a niche of a niche of a niche lol. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever
It seriously depends on the business model of the game. You can not state you do not like cosmetics items being sold through a cash shop, unless you state other methods of a company actually making operation and expansion costs.
Oh yes the OP can. Foomerang not only can but did. Fact is, games these days offer cash shops because the games are missing key components that make a small monthly sub generate enough revenue that a cash shop isn't required for anything except pure greed. EQ didn't require one, EQ2, WoW (can't believe I am saying this), and even games like Vanguard (yeah, it was buggy, but it had what crap these days never do) didn't need them because the games felt alive and people actually communicated with total strangers and made friends, guilds and all this led to communities.
WoW started the downfall to what we currently have where games are made for the Varuca Salt generation of gamers. You know the types, the "I want it, and I want NOW!" types. They've been handled with kit gloves their entire lives and aren't allowed to experience failure in any way while growing up. Why work for it when you can just buy it. They are the target audiences game developers are creating games for and why not? Have the spoiled brat that needs a good arse whooping but never gets one because the parents have virtually no power anymore scream enough and mommy and daddy fork over the cash for Joe-shit the Ragmanchild. He's also probably in his early 20s still living at home with no job, doesn't help around the house, and thinks it's ok for mommy to still clean his room.
The industry has changed. It's changed to cater to lazy, worthless, waste of flesh, sorry excuses for humans let alone single celled organisms. Games are shallow because the newer gamers are well, shallow and can't stand to earn a damn thing in life let alone a game. MMOs no longer have a real community. They don't even try to make emersive worlds and if they are trying, they need to get a refund on any schooling they paid for because they suck! They are filled with solo players because WoW introduced the genre to those that suffered from a disease known as LOFT during EQs heyday. What's LOFT you ask? Simply put it means Lack Of F_cking Talent. Now everyone can get what others have toiled and sweated for. It only takes a couple bucks vice the time to research, get better as a player and EARN things.
Cash shops are a nothing but:
1. A money grab for the company to recoup their investments in shitty games
2. A way for crappy and lazy players to buy things they could never hope to earn because they lack the skills or mental fortitude to do so on their own.
Until society takes a swing back toward valuing hard work and earning things honestly, the industry will not change. Sadly.
I know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days.
Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.
But they are not anymore. They are in a store. And the devs get a pat on the back because at least they aren't selling combat buffs.
I guess I just don't belong in this new style of mmorpg. Even my mmo of choice does it. Best I can do is try to ignore it. My preferred play style is becoming a niche of a niche of a niche lol. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever
well, it's a good system, if done right.
example of how to do it right: the secret world.
they got base items for clothings and sell "premium" clothings too. imo the best way to have a free 2 play game.
done MUCH better than in APB for example, you don't sell weapons and stuff... no ma'am!
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game?
It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
Good point. Skyrim's servers seem to maintain 24/7 uptime, and their GMs are some of the best in the industry. How are they on delivering expansions for it? Monthly? Once a year? They are expanding the game, right? Whatever the case, I hear their engine handles PVP battles of 100+ players flawlessly.
Because that's all that matters when it comes to quality game design. Once you have all that ironed out, the rest of it is a cakewalk. Don't really need a great game once you have the server infrastructure in place.
Its funny how people like you and me saw this as an instant erosion of immersion and in game systems the minute F2P was born, while others (I guess those with limited cash) saw it as gift from the gaming gods.
It all depends on what's important to a person, some want immersion others want free stuff and others just want to win at any cost.
To me it has been one of the most depressing phases of my gaming over the years, just sitting back in horror watching the transformation of games to F2P and what it has done to gameplay.
I happen to me a rich man playing in a kids industry so money is no object. I could have 10 subs running at once and not bat an eye at it. I could also spend 1000's per month in a cash shop and not care. But I wont spend even a penny in a cash shop because of how sad I am about what It has done to gameplay in general.
I just play whatever MMO still has a sub that gives me access to the whole game for one price.
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game?
It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
Good point. Skyrim's servers seem to maintain 24/7 uptime, and their GMs are some of the best in the industry. How are they on delivering expansions for it? Monthly? Once a year? They are expanding the game, right? Whatever the case, I hear their engine handles PVP battles of 100+ players flawlessly.
1- Skyrim isn't an mmo. Elder Scrolls Online is an mmo.
2- If he was referrting to Skyrim as en example of a CEO of an mmorpg making a better game to maintain profits, then he is comparing an mmo to a single player game.
3-Elder Scrolls Online is going buy to play with a CASH SHOP - LOL, so that example won't even apply in a few months. If anything, the example validates cash shops.
Not being snarky, just pointing things out.
No, it's an example that has nothing to do with the number of players but one of a principle that a game can be enjoyed months or years later.
I only wish there was an MMORPG still around that seems to embody this. But I can['t think of one. Maybe EVE. I just don't play it.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by LoktofeitOriginally posted by FoomerangI know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days. Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.But they are not anymore.
They're not?Heh. You know, that hurt a little coming from you man. Yeah they are not all 100% separated from in game. But it's not at all like it used to be. Just wanted to make a part saying I'm a little saddened by that and yeah I was expecting some ridicule and picking apart. But I gotta be honest I didn't expect to see your name tossed in with the lot. I think you write a lot of read worthy stuff around here.
Actually it was a genuine question, so I apologize if I came across poorly with my brevity there. It seemed to me that most MMOs try to ensure that the cosmetic items are available through in-game systems as well as through the cash shop. So, to expand on my question:
Which are the MMOs you feel are relegating the majority of cosmetics, or even exclusivity of cosmetics, to the cash shop?
The secret world, marvel heroes, dungeon fighter online, the last three years of swg, pso2, age of wushu, dcuo. The majority of these newer MMOs I tried are like this. This is my personal experience so of course I haven't tried them all. But yes I've found cosmetics to be largely relegated to the shop while in game rewards are relegated to weapons and armor. Like I said, I know it's a small thing. I'm not asking for a call to arms, just observing something that wasn't as prevalent before and, for me at least, lessens the enjoyment of these games.
I couldn't agree more, OP. There was a time when getting your toon to look good was one of many "things to do" in your typical MMO. Every time they add something to a cash shop they remove something from the game and make it weaker, worste, shorter lived, less immersive, less fun etc etc. I'll get back to MMOs when this cash shop frenzy fades away into oblivion...if ever.
Yep, I agree with you OP. Fancy looking armor used to mean something, that this character had really accomplished something in game. I usually didn't have it because I just wasn't willing to put in the time, but I knew when I grouped with someone that had, say, cobalt armor in early EQ 1, that this dude was a *serious* player! He most likely knew his class very well.
MMORPGs have lost their way, we'll get back there I hope.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by nariusseldonOriginally posted by FoomerangI know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days. Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.But they are not anymore. They are in a store. And the devs get a pat on the back because at least they aren't selling combat buffs.I guess I just don't belong in this new style of mmorpg. Even my mmo of choice does it. Best I can do is try to ignore it. My preferred play style is becoming a niche of a niche of a niche lol. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever
You are right. It is a small thing, and I don't really care.I know buddy. That's why I added that part. Just for you Thank you! ... btw, you are also right that you don't belong in this new style of mmorpgs. Do you plan to (or already did) change your hobby from playing MMORPGs to talking about MMORPGs? No I'm actively playing ffxiv. And still very much enjoying it. I will also continue to try out as many new MMOs as I can within reason.
Originally posted by Foomerang I know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days. Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.But they are not anymore. They are in a store. And the devs get a pat on the back because at least they aren't selling combat buffs.I guess I just don't belong in this new style of mmorpg. Even my mmo of choice does it. Best I can do is try to ignore it. My preferred play style is becoming a niche of a niche of a niche lol. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever
I think maybe 90% of the players today care not for cosmetics, they think it's great. "Make others pay for their entertainment!", seems to be their mantra.
Mention charging for something they enjoy and it is riot time.
I also no longer belong in this crowd. MMORPGs (if they still exist) have passed me by...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by DMKano Originally posted by FoomerangI know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days. Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.But they are not anymore. They are in a store. And the devs get a pat on the back because at least they aren't selling combat buffs.I guess I just don't belong in this new style of mmorpg. Even my mmo of choice does it. Best I can do is try to ignore it. My preferred play style is becoming a niche of a niche of a niche lol. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever
Cash shops are a way to profitability. Without cash shops the vast majority of MMOs would cease to exist. Just because MMOS without cash shops were viable 10 years ago, it doesn't mean that they would be today. Times change and games will continue to change with time. Yeah I understand why they are there and why they are needed these days. Maybe down the road they won't be. Point of this post wasn't too demand a halt. I don't think I said I wanted anything done about it in my op. Just lamenting an observation that I found interesting and wanted to share.
LOL! Capitalism man, everything is for sale, including soul, love, sex, honesty, honor... Why would games be any different? I would prefer buying cosmetic items than napalming children in yemen like some "honest representatives of the people" do.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
I disagree with having mounts in cash shops. Pets that do no damage or clothing? Doesn't bother me. In fact, it helps me filter out people I have no interest in helping or grouping with. In PVP it helps me identify targets for slaughter. Those neon pants you're wearing may just get you killed..
I agree, the problem is we endorse it so they sell it. The simple fact is if gamers buy it theyll keep selling it, it was us after all that told them it was ok and encouraged them to do it by buying it all up and continuing to do so. So dont blame the game studios because we cant control ourselves and want to spend real money on stupid pixel outfits, im guilty of buying those things too but thats like blaming McDonald's because youre obese. The only way it will change is if there is a unification among gamers and we boycott those who practice it, which will never happen.
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game?
It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
Good point. Skyrim's servers seem to maintain 24/7 uptime, and their GMs are some of the best in the industry. How are they on delivering expansions for it? Monthly? Once a year? They are expanding the game, right? Whatever the case, I hear their engine handles PVP battles of 100+ players flawlessly.
1- Skyrim isn't an mmo. Elder Scrolls Online is an mmo.
2- If he was referrting to Skyrim as en example of a CEO of an mmorpg making a better game to maintain profits, then he is comparing an mmo to a single player game.
3-Elder Scrolls Online is going buy to play with a CASH SHOP - LOL, so that example won't even apply in a few months. If anything, the example validates cash shops.
Not being snarky, just pointing things out.
No, it's an example that has nothing to do with the number of players but one of a principle that a game can be enjoyed months or years later.
I only wish there was an MMORPG still around that seems to embody this. But I can['t think of one. Maybe EVE. I just don't play it.
There are MMORPGs that emobody this for many players - just because you are not able to enjoy current MMOs for months doesn't mean that nobody else is.
I am not saying they don't exist for everyone. And yes, what I am looking for doesn't exist 100% for me,(I play what I can) and neither am I alone. There are plenty of people around these boards who have expressed similar opinions. I don't know how big or small my particular demographic is, but I'd say it should be enough to justify at least one game out there.
As I have said in the past. It seems that most "successful" MMOs seem to be hitting a stride in the area of a low to mid 6 figure population now. So why is it so unacceptable to want one designed one like that from the start?
That $15 sub isn't worth as much as it was 10 years ago. Cash shops subsidize the subscription to counter the loss of revenue from inflation. Sub price would be over $18 per month to match inflation.
Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop. Subscription = Actual content updates!
Originally posted by VassagoMael That $15 sub isn't worth as much as it was 10 years ago. Cash shops subsidize the subscription to counter the loss of revenue from inflation. Sub price would be over $18 per month to match inflation.
That's an interesting take I've seen a few times now. Considering companies like Anet tried to convince people that 15 dollar monthly subscription fees were a scam. And maybe most are, because the perceived value of MMOs has declined over the years.
I'm totally there with you. I don't want to buy a mount for $20. I want to kill a boss riding it and loot it. I don't want to loot some sword that looks like a rusty piece of junk on purpose to drive me to the cash shop to buy the cool lightning effect. I want quests in the game to get these items. They have value for a reason and all cosmetics are is Pay2LookCool instead of playing the game to get the items you pay the game to get the items.
It just feels so virtual shopping mall to me, I really hate putting up with it. Every time I think they could have put that in the game as a drop or quest not a credit card swipe.
If you were a CEO of a mmorpg dev studio and you were not able to maintain profitability with your game with a P2P model - and you wanted to keep your game alive and your employees getting a steady paycheck - what would you do?
Make a better game?
It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
Good point. Skyrim's servers seem to maintain 24/7 uptime, and their GMs are some of the best in the industry. How are they on delivering expansions for it? Monthly? Once a year? They are expanding the game, right? Whatever the case, I hear their engine handles PVP battles of 100+ players flawlessly.
No need to be Snarky.... I believe this was two separate trains of thought. The poster was not trying to compare Skyrim to an MMO, just pointing out he has played more of it than MMOs because the enjoyment and immersion is there.
Skyrim is supported by modders and there is plenty of new content through the community, so in essence there is tons of expansions for the game. If it had a multi-player mode for pvp and adventuring I wouldn't be playing most MMOs.
I know it's a small thing and probably not many people care. But it has always bothered me. Selling cosmetic items in a cash shop is generally seen as an acceptable practice. And yet that has allowed for a subtle but steady shift away from the immersive virtual worlds I miss so dearly these days.
Cosmetic items: clothing, mounts, pets, titles, auras etc. These used to be part of the game itself. Part of the lore. Perhaps a side quest somewhere. Or tied into a crafting system.
But they are not anymore. They are in a store. And the devs get a pat on the back because at least they aren't selling combat buffs.
I guess I just don't belong in this new style of mmorpg. Even my mmo of choice does it. Best I can do is try to ignore it. My preferred play style is becoming a niche of a niche of a niche lol. Oh well. Nothing lasts forever
Exactly! Agree 100%. What is being deemed "cosmetic" IS part of game play for role players!
Currently I am in the good position to play EVE online for free on my accounts, that saying I buy time codes with ingame money.
Would I still be paying sub money for a MMO like I did 10y ago?
No.
Why not?
Majority isn't worth my money imo.
Games like WoW, TESO offer me no challenge, there is no world immersion, no world pvp, most mmos are mostly lobby games with zoning.
For me a MMO used to be about experiencing adventures in a online 'world' -NERD ALERT!- , not about my 'progress in some raid encounter or getting 99999999999999999999 XP to get that shiny armor piece.
The day EVE Online has items in their shop that gives other unfair advantages and/or forces me to pay sub money again, I am out, no big deal.
I enjoy myself pretty good with singleplayer games or multiplayer shooters just fine.
Outside EVE there isn't any mmo that is out of the box anyway, they are mostly all alike now.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Originally posted by VassagoMael That $15 sub isn't worth as much as it was 10 years ago. Cash shops subsidize the subscription to counter the loss of revenue from inflation. Sub price would be over $18 per month to match inflation.
So you think it is better to add an itemshop to a P2P game then to raise the price to 18 or 20 bucks?
Come on, the reason some players prefer P2P is because there is no cashshop. And I doubt many people would avoid a new $20 game because it is more expensive than Wow.
Raising the price of an older MMO is another thing, they already got back all development costs since long ago and many of them frankly gets rather few updates beside payed expansions and are used as cashsows already.
I doubt Wow sells mounts and stuff because Blizzard needs more money to develop new content and pay their employees, it would be pretty interesting to know just how much a players sub they use to keep the game running and updated (and as I said, expansions are payed for by the boxprice).
I have zero problems paying $20 each month for a good MMO but I will not pay monthly fees for anything with microtransactions, why would I when both GW2 and TSW are good games? The whole reason for P2P is that it is all included and you get rid of most of the people you see in F2P games that plays 10 levels and then log in once every 3 months. Not to mention that it limits the goldspammers and the people whocreate an account just to spam out crap in the chat.
Comments
Make a better game? It can be done. I've played more Skyrim in the past year than I have spent in any one particular MMORPG.
What about your favorite game, ArcheAge? Could that game have succeeded as a Subscription only game in The West? Maybe maybe not. I think it actually might have had a chance to. But whatever success it would have had as a P2P only game, clearly wasn't enough. And I think that mentality is what is hurting this genre.........At least to the point the OP is making.
Good point. Skyrim's servers seem to maintain 24/7 uptime, and their GMs are some of the best in the industry. How are they on delivering expansions for it? Monthly? Once a year? They are expanding the game, right? Whatever the case, I hear their engine handles PVP battles of 100+ players flawlessly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
who is going to invest $$$ to let you make a better game when your previous game is not making money?
1- Skyrim isn't an mmo. Elder Scrolls Online is an mmo.
2- If he was referrting to Skyrim as en example of a CEO of an mmorpg making a better game to maintain profits, then he is comparing an mmo to a single player game.
3-Elder Scrolls Online is going buy to play with a CASH SHOP - LOL, so that example won't even apply in a few months. If anything, the example validates cash shops.
Not being snarky, just pointing things out.
Oh yes the OP can. Foomerang not only can but did. Fact is, games these days offer cash shops because the games are missing key components that make a small monthly sub generate enough revenue that a cash shop isn't required for anything except pure greed. EQ didn't require one, EQ2, WoW (can't believe I am saying this), and even games like Vanguard (yeah, it was buggy, but it had what crap these days never do) didn't need them because the games felt alive and people actually communicated with total strangers and made friends, guilds and all this led to communities.
WoW started the downfall to what we currently have where games are made for the Varuca Salt generation of gamers. You know the types, the "I want it, and I want NOW!" types. They've been handled with kit gloves their entire lives and aren't allowed to experience failure in any way while growing up. Why work for it when you can just buy it. They are the target audiences game developers are creating games for and why not? Have the spoiled brat that needs a good arse whooping but never gets one because the parents have virtually no power anymore scream enough and mommy and daddy fork over the cash for Joe-shit the Ragmanchild. He's also probably in his early 20s still living at home with no job, doesn't help around the house, and thinks it's ok for mommy to still clean his room.
The industry has changed. It's changed to cater to lazy, worthless, waste of flesh, sorry excuses for humans let alone single celled organisms. Games are shallow because the newer gamers are well, shallow and can't stand to earn a damn thing in life let alone a game. MMOs no longer have a real community. They don't even try to make emersive worlds and if they are trying, they need to get a refund on any schooling they paid for because they suck! They are filled with solo players because WoW introduced the genre to those that suffered from a disease known as LOFT during EQs heyday. What's LOFT you ask? Simply put it means Lack Of F_cking Talent. Now everyone can get what others have toiled and sweated for. It only takes a couple bucks vice the time to research, get better as a player and EARN things.
Cash shops are a nothing but:
1. A money grab for the company to recoup their investments in shitty games
2. A way for crappy and lazy players to buy things they could never hope to earn because they lack the skills or mental fortitude to do so on their own.
Until society takes a swing back toward valuing hard work and earning things honestly, the industry will not change. Sadly.
well, it's a good system, if done right.
example of how to do it right: the secret world.
they got base items for clothings and sell "premium" clothings too. imo the best way to have a free 2 play game.
done MUCH better than in APB for example, you don't sell weapons and stuff... no ma'am!
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
Because that's all that matters when it comes to quality game design. Once you have all that ironed out, the rest of it is a cakewalk. Don't really need a great game once you have the server infrastructure in place.
Its funny how people like you and me saw this as an instant erosion of immersion and in game systems the minute F2P was born, while others (I guess those with limited cash) saw it as gift from the gaming gods.
It all depends on what's important to a person, some want immersion others want free stuff and others just want to win at any cost.
To me it has been one of the most depressing phases of my gaming over the years, just sitting back in horror watching the transformation of games to F2P and what it has done to gameplay.
I happen to me a rich man playing in a kids industry so money is no object. I could have 10 subs running at once and not bat an eye at it. I could also spend 1000's per month in a cash shop and not care. But I wont spend even a penny in a cash shop because of how sad I am about what It has done to gameplay in general.
I just play whatever MMO still has a sub that gives me access to the whole game for one price.
No, it's an example that has nothing to do with the number of players but one of a principle that a game can be enjoyed months or years later.
I only wish there was an MMORPG still around that seems to embody this. But I can['t think of one. Maybe EVE. I just don't play it.
Heh. You know, that hurt a little coming from you man. Yeah they are not all 100% separated from in game. But it's not at all like it used to be. Just wanted to make a part saying I'm a little saddened by that and yeah I was expecting some ridicule and picking apart. But I gotta be honest I didn't expect to see your name tossed in with the lot. I think you write a lot of read worthy stuff around here.
Actually it was a genuine question, so I apologize if I came across poorly with my brevity there. It seemed to me that most MMOs try to ensure that the cosmetic items are available through in-game systems as well as through the cash shop. So, to expand on my question:
Which are the MMOs you feel are relegating the majority of cosmetics, or even exclusivity of cosmetics, to the cash shop?
The secret world, marvel heroes, dungeon fighter online, the last three years of swg, pso2, age of wushu, dcuo. The majority of these newer MMOs I tried are like this. This is my personal experience so of course I haven't tried them all. But yes I've found cosmetics to be largely relegated to the shop while in game rewards are relegated to weapons and armor.
Like I said, I know it's a small thing. I'm not asking for a call to arms, just observing something that wasn't as prevalent before and, for me at least, lessens the enjoyment of these games.
Yep, I agree with you OP. Fancy looking armor used to mean something, that this character had really accomplished something in game. I usually didn't have it because I just wasn't willing to put in the time, but I knew when I grouped with someone that had, say, cobalt armor in early EQ 1, that this dude was a *serious* player! He most likely knew his class very well.
MMORPGs have lost their way, we'll get back there I hope.
I know buddy. That's why I added that part. Just for you
Thank you! ... btw, you are also right that you don't belong in this new style of mmorpgs. Do you plan to (or already did) change your hobby from playing MMORPGs to talking about MMORPGs?
No I'm actively playing ffxiv. And still very much enjoying it. I will also continue to try out as many new MMOs as I can within reason.
Mention charging for something they enjoy and it is riot time.
I also no longer belong in this crowd. MMORPGs (if they still exist) have passed me by...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yeah I understand why they are there and why they are needed these days. Maybe down the road they won't be. Point of this post wasn't too demand a halt. I don't think I said I wanted anything done about it in my op. Just lamenting an observation that I found interesting and wanted to share.
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
- Nellus
I am not saying they don't exist for everyone. And yes, what I am looking for doesn't exist 100% for me,(I play what I can) and neither am I alone. There are plenty of people around these boards who have expressed similar opinions. I don't know how big or small my particular demographic is, but I'd say it should be enough to justify at least one game out there.
As I have said in the past. It seems that most "successful" MMOs seem to be hitting a stride in the area of a low to mid 6 figure population now. So why is it so unacceptable to want one designed one like that from the start?
Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop.
Subscription = Actual content updates!
No need to be Snarky.... I believe this was two separate trains of thought. The poster was not trying to compare Skyrim to an MMO, just pointing out he has played more of it than MMOs because the enjoyment and immersion is there.
Skyrim is supported by modders and there is plenty of new content through the community, so in essence there is tons of expansions for the game. If it had a multi-player mode for pvp and adventuring I wouldn't be playing most MMOs.
Exactly! Agree 100%. What is being deemed "cosmetic" IS part of game play for role players!
Currently I am in the good position to play EVE online for free on my accounts, that saying I buy time codes with ingame money.
Would I still be paying sub money for a MMO like I did 10y ago?
No.
Why not?
Majority isn't worth my money imo.
Games like WoW, TESO offer me no challenge, there is no world immersion, no world pvp, most mmos are mostly lobby games with zoning.
For me a MMO used to be about experiencing adventures in a online 'world' -NERD ALERT!- , not about my 'progress in some raid encounter or getting 99999999999999999999 XP to get that shiny armor piece.
The day EVE Online has items in their shop that gives other unfair advantages and/or forces me to pay sub money again, I am out, no big deal.
I enjoy myself pretty good with singleplayer games or multiplayer shooters just fine.
Outside EVE there isn't any mmo that is out of the box anyway, they are mostly all alike now.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
So you think it is better to add an itemshop to a P2P game then to raise the price to 18 or 20 bucks?
Come on, the reason some players prefer P2P is because there is no cashshop. And I doubt many people would avoid a new $20 game because it is more expensive than Wow.
Raising the price of an older MMO is another thing, they already got back all development costs since long ago and many of them frankly gets rather few updates beside payed expansions and are used as cashsows already.
I doubt Wow sells mounts and stuff because Blizzard needs more money to develop new content and pay their employees, it would be pretty interesting to know just how much a players sub they use to keep the game running and updated (and as I said, expansions are payed for by the boxprice).
I have zero problems paying $20 each month for a good MMO but I will not pay monthly fees for anything with microtransactions, why would I when both GW2 and TSW are good games? The whole reason for P2P is that it is all included and you get rid of most of the people you see in F2P games that plays 10 levels and then log in once every 3 months. Not to mention that it limits the goldspammers and the people whocreate an account just to spam out crap in the chat.