MMORPGs are essentially just Tomb Raider Platform Games with stats.
In the time between the first computer RPGs came out and now, the trend is increasingly focused on creating a stat-based game that allows for combat that directly reflects some improvement of your character over time. The emphasis is always on the things which are the most mechanical aspects of old Pen and Paper games like Dungeons & Dragons or Runequest, and never on the thing that drives any RPG played past early adolescence: Character development, unbounded possible actions in the gamespace, and interactions/relationships in a Fantasy/Sci-Fi situation.
At first I thought that computers would be a boon to a genre I love, because they would allow for more math-heavy rules for simulating success or failure in situations, as well as being able to have 100% attention on the game world aspects as opposed to a GM, who only remembers a small bit of it at any time. But the effect was actually not positive. The Role-Playing part of the game is something that technology can't really support, and is also unpopular across the demographics. The result was Only the mechanical part being represented.
This means that the RPGs on computer basically regressed backward to their wargaming roots. I'm not trying to offend Wargamers, but the RPG is in fact an evolution along a branch of wargaming, and developed to be able to leave the battlemat, and figures behind for deep story-based play. So when you take out the RP part you really just have a wargame with Dave Arneson advancement.
Video Game influence steadily seems to have crept into the DNA of RPGs, so that the current trend seems to be wargames that have more and more Platformer style gameplay, with the original Tomb Raider games being a comparison.
The "character" in an E-RPG is basically an animated icon with a stat block, and more importantly, a gear database that allows the character to be valued mainly upon the shit they are wearing. The "Character" is such a hollow and lifeless thing, that it seems to me wrong to use that term. Toon or Avatar is more fitting, as any background elements of the character are no different than the tattoo you chose from the pull down at character creation. It's just equipment and limited variation eye-candy with no significance or contextual value.
So I am thinking that this is a reason why I have been steadily more and more disaffected by the games that have come out over recent years. They really aren't made to be Role-Playing games per se, the term RPG was just an unfortunate bit of nomenclature that stuck. I think that they should have been called something else that would have been more marketable to the Console-cum-WoW players who were able to make a transition from Madden/Zelda/CoD and into a Sword and Sorcery game, and less inaccurate for people who have played real role-playing games.
Calling modern MMORPGs "Tomb Raider" or "wargames" seems to carefully avoid the fact that videogame RPGs since their inception have been combat-heavy games about character progression and story. You know, exactly what modern MMORPGs focus on.
Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder, the Gold Box D&D games, and countless other early videogame RPGs were, by no stretch of the imagination, focused on "unbounded possible actions in the game space". They were limited and combat-focused. Yet they were still fun. I guess ~15 years into the genre we started seeing more inter-character relationships in games (Baldur's Gate had a little) but a good deal of RPGs have never focused on that element.
So there are a large amount of videogame RPGs out there that show that videogame RPGs have always been distinct from tabletop RPGs. Your recent discovery of this fact doesn't mean it's the new games which are divergent. Videogame RPGs have always been separate.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Flyte27 I believe this is what EQ was intended to be, but was turned into a loot race by the players.
nah .. it was based on the dikuMuD .. pretty much hack-n-slash without the action fun combat.
There is almost NOTHING beyond hack-n-slash in EQ aside from a bit of emotes. The zones are non-interactive. In fact, EQ does not even have chests that you can open like in a hack-n-slash game like D3.
So let's build an MMO with no gear progression and everything is based on actual real time dice rolls.
Also, when people do dungeons, let's designate random people as dungeon masters and let them control mobs. Or let people pick their friends to be dungeon masters.
Games could probably do that with private servers.
I actually had a cold shiver run through my body when i read this, in particular the, "let's designate random people as dungeon masters". part.
The problem with that is the same problem with the internet in general, anonymity.
In a tabletop RPG, if the GM did something eminantly stupid just to be a dick, you reached across the table and smacked him up side the head with a mountain dew or a bag of cheetos. That isn't an option on the internet, so, like usual, people will be as big of dicks and trolls as possible cus they think its hilarious in their tiny pea sized brains.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Flyte27 I believe this is what EQ was intended to be, but was turned into a loot race by the players.
nah .. it was based on the dikuMuD .. pretty much hack-n-slash without the action fun combat.
There is almost NOTHING beyond hack-n-slash in EQ aside from a bit of emotes. The zones are non-interactive. In fact, EQ does not even have chests that you can open like in a hack-n-slash game like D3.
My rose tinted glasses are on fire narius...
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Originally posted by Flyte27 I believe this is what EQ was intended to be, but was turned into a loot race by the players.
nah .. it was based on the dikuMuD .. pretty much hack-n-slash without the action fun combat.
There is almost NOTHING beyond hack-n-slash in EQ aside from a bit of emotes. The zones are non-interactive. In fact, EQ does not even have chests that you can open like in a hack-n-slash game like D3.
Hmm that's weird I remember almost every door being able to open and close, elevators that went up and down, being able to drop items on the ground, traps in dungeons, swimming in water and lava, weather where high level druids could stop the rain, boats that sorta worked and would pick people up from the docks, secret doors and passages, sliding on ice in velks, teleporting from island to island in Plane of Sky and more.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
I've been recommending P&P RPGs for MMORPG players for years. An MMO cannot offer the same experience. It is never going to happen.
Have you ever considered that MMO gamers don't care about P&P RPGs? I think the majority of MMO gamers just enjoy mmos. Not one person I peronsally play with (friends irl and online) has any interest in P&P RPGs. Are you sure you are not speaking for a very small minority?
I agree that the world simulation and behavior in it seems to be the problem. I think that EQN was something that sounds great on paper, but as it came to life there were many things about it that I personally found objectionable. Yes it had a number of philosophically correct approaches, but it also has some really awful things like an overall appearance that is just off-putting. There are PnP RPGs I wont play either because of something I don't like, so I think that aesthetic preference cannot be blamed. I'm not going to support a product that has 3 things right and 2 very horribly wrong. I don't want EQN to die, but I'm not happy about it either.
Other than that I agree with you that catering to the individual is a no no, and also that the very nature of the MMO size means that everyone cannot be epic. I also think your observation about the SPRPG difference was a great point. I think that it will be a long time before computers can hang with the improvisation of a real RPG.
EQN has things that are not to my liking either. But I hope it gets developed and becomes a massive success so that maybe someone comes along after them with "EQN clones" also written for the multiplayer environment but maybe with less goofy cartoony characters.
It's the concept of developing it not as a poor RPG or SRPG copy but as its own multiplayer thing that I'm cheering for,
So let's build an MMO with no gear progression and everything is based on actual real time dice rolls.
Also, when people do dungeons, let's designate random people as dungeon masters and let them control mobs. Or let people pick their friends to be dungeon masters.
Games could probably do that with private servers.
I actually had a cold shiver run through my body when i read this, in particular the, "let's designate random people as dungeon masters". part.
The problem with that is the same problem with the internet in general, anonymity.
In a tabletop RPG, if the GM did something eminantly stupid just to be a dick, you reached across the table and smacked him up side the head with a mountain dew or a bag of cheetos. That isn't an option on the internet, so, like usual, people will be as big of dicks and trolls as possible cus they think its hilarious in their tiny pea sized brains.
This is basically the first thing I thought as well. The idea of making a game world where random gamers have some form of control. Well, you can count me out of it. Same reason I don't waste my time in full loot pvp.
A roleplaying game is defined as a game which relies on the values of the character, i.e. its stats, feats, skills etc etc etc.
An action game is defined as a game which relies on the reflexes of the gamer. Character values either dont exist at all or only in the most rudimentary form (typically a class which defines what gear the character is carrying).
An action roleplaying game is defined as a mix between roleplaying and action gaming.
Many of todays MMOs qualify as roleplaying games, and many other are action roleplaying games.
I'm so bummed out that Wizards is supporting DnD so poorly for the current generation.
5th edition DnD has no character generator, and last i checked there where no PDF's of the books for sale, sure theres a basic ruleset for free but theres only so far it'll get you.
I don't think RPG will ever be fully captured in computer gaming, a game will never be able to represent the entire vast expanse of our imagination, not unless complete neural control virtual reality becomes a thing anyway.
The thing with MMos is that to be effective, they CAN NOT focus on the traditional RPG elements. A player's character isn't able to be fleshed out and made as they player needs to feel a connection to them as 'their own' rather then creating a particular character where story can be built around. This makes the story far to generic to not infringe on a person's thoughts about what their character is. The 'stats' gives that sense of building a character and I feel IS a big part of an RPG, though not the only one.
MMos need to build that element of Roleplaying by making the player absorbed into the world. It has to immerse the player through them feeling involved over relying on a story which roleplaying games usually are about. In that end I would say MMORPGs are RPGs, it is just not all of them can absorb the player into the world as much since they can't infringe on their idea of their own character. It relies on building an atmosphere and enviroment which can be a far harder thing to accomplish when you don't have an actual character they play with personality quirks and history to work from. Some players can make this work (primarily roleplayers) but most simply can not.
I do agree with the OP, that RPG is loosely applied to many games that to many shouldn't be labeled as such.. The closest thing to online RPG to me was vanilla EQ. There I sought out player made items like banded armor, or reinforced leather.. Many warriors wanted bronze, etc from mobs.. There were a good number of attempts to put RPG into the game, but came up short.. Languages was an excellent idea, and something that could of, or should of been tweaked to be more meaningful to the players. Spamming a macro should NOT of been the way to learn languages like many (I included) used.
Other posters brought up "combat" being the only option in the game.. It wasn't the ONLY option, but it was the major focus in the game.. I remember when thieves could pick pocket NPC's.. GREAT IDEA, but it fell short of it's potential.. As a newbie thief, I would of loved to have the ability to steal things off NPC or in stores to gain experience.. Why do I have to kill to get xp? Imagine a thief that gains enough skill to pick pocket the Captain of the Guards, to acquire a rare valuable note or token that is used to unlock a quest/objective.. I loved in WoW you could use your lock picking skills get into lock boxes..
SWG did an OK job in bringing back RPG without the need to kill everything, but it fell short of the mark as well.. I do think it can be done, but it takes the right creative minds to make those decisions.. Sadly, we are stuck with generic molds that attract the fast food crowd..
This is caused partially by lacking technology and party by lacking desire. The technology has just not been in place to make a real MMORPG on the PC. You need a world capable of reacting to what thousands of players are doing and we just aren't there yet.
On the other hand you need a player base that is invested into RPG and given how these games have evolved it is a very niche market of players at this point.
This is caused partially by lacking technology and party by lacking desire. The technology has just not been in place to make a real MMORPG on the PC. You need a world capable of reacting to what thousands of players are doing and we just aren't there yet.
On the other hand you need a player base that is invested into RPG and given how these games have evolved it is a very niche market of players at this point.
It is more lacking desire than technology. Just look at RP servers and how much people are actually RPing in them?
It is pretty clear to me that RPG in computer/video gaming means progression mostly, and the market is merely responding to the demand.
Sir you do not know what RPG means. So you are playing a character's role in a game. Who,What,When,Where,How will always change but the 1 element that must remain for it to be a RPG is for you to play the role of a character or group of characters. Its your fault if you aren't playing a role when you log into a mmo. They allow you to create a role if you want and play it. Some of them give you a role and you have to stick with it. Either way lets take WOW for example you are an orc,warrior. Now you have to play that role or you are the one refusing to be a RPG player.
You'll never get a true RPG in a MMO so don't even try. I finally understood that after 10 years.
I recently upgraded my comp to get better graphics, GTX760 and a 850 watt PS, I through in 8 more GIGS of RAM so I been lost in Skyrim.
With mods I have I can do true RP.
example:
Guard said something about a bandit raid so I goes out and rounded up 20 bandits and brought them to town and unleashed them. Was a great RP.
I had a consequence though. LOL! I removed all protection from NPC's so some of the game quest NPC's are no longer around.
Try that in a MMO.
NOPE.
Never gonna happen.
This is whats so great about all singleplayer Elderscrolls game's on PC. Lame as hell to play them on console. Even the new Fallout games from Bethesda are more fun than mmo's right now on PC with mods,
You'll never get a true RPG in a MMO so don't even try. I finally understood that after 10 years.
Look back through all videogame RPGs since they started making them, and realize that MMORPGs are RPGs in exactly the same way, with the same focus on combat, character progression, and story.
That's ~35 years of videogame RPG history. Definitely a long enough lineage to establish themselves as a true RPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I have RP in every MMO I have played. I end up picking a race because I think they would be fun to RP. Good batch of emotes and the ability to sit in chairs or lay down and you have all you need to RP. Heck you dont even need combat to make it a RPG, you just need to tools to pretend your someone else. RP is very much alive in MMOs just not everyone does it.
Originally posted by filmoret Sir you do not know what RPG means. So you are playing a character's role in a game. Who,What,When,Where,How will always change but the 1 element that must remain for it to be a RPG is for you to play the role of a character or group of characters. Its your fault if you aren't playing a role when you log into a mmo. They allow you to create a role if you want and play it. Some of them give you a role and you have to stick with it. Either way lets take WOW for example you are an orc,warrior. Now you have to play that role or you are the one refusing to be a RPG player.
By that definition, the SIMS or even Football manager are RPGs.
But they are simulation game. So there is more to it than that (=> storyline/world and single character progression)
But by that definition, Legend of Zelda is an RPG. So there is more to it than that.
Originally posted by Festano MMORPGs are Tomb Raider games with stats? Okaaaay...
Yeah. That's a great way to kill a discussion before it can begin.
MMORPGs aren't multiplayer games
MMORPGs are singleplayer RPGs games, full of solo quests.
WALL
OF
TEXT
discuss.
Will say though, MMORPGs aren't RPGs because most players don't even try to get in character or act as if part of the game world so right away it all feels like a sham. At least a singleplayer RPG always can, its just up to you.
Comments
Calling modern MMORPGs "Tomb Raider" or "wargames" seems to carefully avoid the fact that videogame RPGs since their inception have been combat-heavy games about character progression and story. You know, exactly what modern MMORPGs focus on.
Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder, the Gold Box D&D games, and countless other early videogame RPGs were, by no stretch of the imagination, focused on "unbounded possible actions in the game space". They were limited and combat-focused. Yet they were still fun. I guess ~15 years into the genre we started seeing more inter-character relationships in games (Baldur's Gate had a little) but a good deal of RPGs have never focused on that element.
So there are a large amount of videogame RPGs out there that show that videogame RPGs have always been distinct from tabletop RPGs. Your recent discovery of this fact doesn't mean it's the new games which are divergent. Videogame RPGs have always been separate.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
nah .. it was based on the dikuMuD .. pretty much hack-n-slash without the action fun combat.
There is almost NOTHING beyond hack-n-slash in EQ aside from a bit of emotes. The zones are non-interactive. In fact, EQ does not even have chests that you can open like in a hack-n-slash game like D3.
so? You just realize that computer RPGs are different from tabletop ones?
I actually had a cold shiver run through my body when i read this, in particular the, "let's designate random people as dungeon masters". part.
The problem with that is the same problem with the internet in general, anonymity.
In a tabletop RPG, if the GM did something eminantly stupid just to be a dick, you reached across the table and smacked him up side the head with a mountain dew or a bag of cheetos. That isn't an option on the internet, so, like usual, people will be as big of dicks and trolls as possible cus they think its hilarious in their tiny pea sized brains.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
My rose tinted glasses are on fire narius...
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Hmm that's weird I remember almost every door being able to open and close, elevators that went up and down, being able to drop items on the ground, traps in dungeons, swimming in water and lava, weather where high level druids could stop the rain, boats that sorta worked and would pick people up from the docks, secret doors and passages, sliding on ice in velks, teleporting from island to island in Plane of Sky and more.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Have you ever considered that MMO gamers don't care about P&P RPGs? I think the majority of MMO gamers just enjoy mmos. Not one person I peronsally play with (friends irl and online) has any interest in P&P RPGs. Are you sure you are not speaking for a very small minority?
Well said, I agree.
This is basically the first thing I thought as well. The idea of making a game world where random gamers have some form of control. Well, you can count me out of it. Same reason I don't waste my time in full loot pvp.
EQ is full of loot chests. 2.0 in CoA, Every mission in DoD, and every raid zone beyond that.
Narius pretending he played games he never played, what a surprise.
There's a whole EQ mission dedicated to opening nothing but chests:
Stop being a troll. I'm amazed you haven't been banned yet with your antics.
A roleplaying game is defined as a game which relies on the values of the character, i.e. its stats, feats, skills etc etc etc.
An action game is defined as a game which relies on the reflexes of the gamer. Character values either dont exist at all or only in the most rudimentary form (typically a class which defines what gear the character is carrying).
An action roleplaying game is defined as a mix between roleplaying and action gaming.
Many of todays MMOs qualify as roleplaying games, and many other are action roleplaying games.
I'm so bummed out that Wizards is supporting DnD so poorly for the current generation.
5th edition DnD has no character generator, and last i checked there where no PDF's of the books for sale, sure theres a basic ruleset for free but theres only so far it'll get you.
I don't think RPG will ever be fully captured in computer gaming, a game will never be able to represent the entire vast expanse of our imagination, not unless complete neural control virtual reality becomes a thing anyway.
The thing with MMos is that to be effective, they CAN NOT focus on the traditional RPG elements. A player's character isn't able to be fleshed out and made as they player needs to feel a connection to them as 'their own' rather then creating a particular character where story can be built around. This makes the story far to generic to not infringe on a person's thoughts about what their character is. The 'stats' gives that sense of building a character and I feel IS a big part of an RPG, though not the only one.
MMos need to build that element of Roleplaying by making the player absorbed into the world. It has to immerse the player through them feeling involved over relying on a story which roleplaying games usually are about. In that end I would say MMORPGs are RPGs, it is just not all of them can absorb the player into the world as much since they can't infringe on their idea of their own character. It relies on building an atmosphere and enviroment which can be a far harder thing to accomplish when you don't have an actual character they play with personality quirks and history to work from. Some players can make this work (primarily roleplayers) but most simply can not.
I do agree with the OP, that RPG is loosely applied to many games that to many shouldn't be labeled as such.. The closest thing to online RPG to me was vanilla EQ. There I sought out player made items like banded armor, or reinforced leather.. Many warriors wanted bronze, etc from mobs.. There were a good number of attempts to put RPG into the game, but came up short.. Languages was an excellent idea, and something that could of, or should of been tweaked to be more meaningful to the players. Spamming a macro should NOT of been the way to learn languages like many (I included) used.
Other posters brought up "combat" being the only option in the game.. It wasn't the ONLY option, but it was the major focus in the game.. I remember when thieves could pick pocket NPC's.. GREAT IDEA, but it fell short of it's potential.. As a newbie thief, I would of loved to have the ability to steal things off NPC or in stores to gain experience.. Why do I have to kill to get xp? Imagine a thief that gains enough skill to pick pocket the Captain of the Guards, to acquire a rare valuable note or token that is used to unlock a quest/objective.. I loved in WoW you could use your lock picking skills get into lock boxes..
SWG did an OK job in bringing back RPG without the need to kill everything, but it fell short of the mark as well.. I do think it can be done, but it takes the right creative minds to make those decisions.. Sadly, we are stuck with generic molds that attract the fast food crowd..
This is caused partially by lacking technology and party by lacking desire. The technology has just not been in place to make a real MMORPG on the PC. You need a world capable of reacting to what thousands of players are doing and we just aren't there yet.
On the other hand you need a player base that is invested into RPG and given how these games have evolved it is a very niche market of players at this point.
It is more lacking desire than technology. Just look at RP servers and how much people are actually RPing in them?
It is pretty clear to me that RPG in computer/video gaming means progression mostly, and the market is merely responding to the demand.
This is whats so great about all singleplayer Elderscrolls game's on PC. Lame as hell to play them on console. Even the new Fallout games from Bethesda are more fun than mmo's right now on PC with mods,
Look back through all videogame RPGs since they started making them, and realize that MMORPGs are RPGs in exactly the same way, with the same focus on combat, character progression, and story.
That's ~35 years of videogame RPG history. Definitely a long enough lineage to establish themselves as a true RPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
By that definition, the SIMS or even Football manager are RPGs.
But they are simulation game. So there is more to it than that (=> storyline/world and single character progression)
But by that definition, Legend of Zelda is an RPG. So there is more to it than that.
Tomb Raider actually has more complex puzzles and game play.
If we are talking about the latest Tomb Raider game .. it also have better stories and event scripting.
so yeah, only if MMORPGs are as good, and more like the latest Tombraider, i will play more of them.
In fact, MMORPGs are not very good RPGs to me, they are better (for me) when they are hack-n-slash games.
Yeah. That's a great way to kill a discussion before it can begin.
MMORPGs aren't multiplayer games
MMORPGs are singleplayer RPGs games, full of solo quests.
WALL
OF
TEXT
discuss.
Will say though, MMORPGs aren't RPGs because most players don't even try to get in character or act as if part of the game world so right away it all feels like a sham. At least a singleplayer RPG always can, its just up to you.