tell ya the truth though Iselin, I found that shared chest for housing to be the most valuable purchases I ever made in lotro, I always did find inventory being sold as acceptale though too. Just the way I always viewed it in most games. After what happened in FFXI and the producer coming out and saying they had way too much inventory in the game and affected server load, I figured those who really want to hoard should pay for server upgrades, and boy did I hoard in LOTRO, I had all the classes on each of them one tradeskill and the shared bank every run would be my portal to dumping all my farming on them. So inventory sales atleast to me seems reasonable. Stats, and Traits are the kinds of things I really had a huge problem with, things you should earn in a game should never be sold, ever.
Originally posted by fistorm So inventory sales at least to me seems reasonable.
Except LOTRO REDUCED their inventory slots on the main game when they changed payment models. They made it worse - intentionally to entice a cash shop purchase or membership. ESO is changing nothing about the base game in its conversion. Just an observation.
The only people getting screwed in this transition are early adopters. ZOS has told lie after lie to the players as they abandoned work on the content they promised Us and pushed it back over and over. now we know the truth. They were too busy building a cash shop and developing the console release to give us what they promised before launch.
I love the game, but have no respect left for ZOS.
Originally posted by fistorm So inventory sales at least to me seems reasonable.
Except LOTRO REDUCED their inventory slots on the main game when they changed payment models. They made it worse - intentionally to entice a cash shop purchase or membership. ESO is changing nothing about the base game in its conversion. Just an observation.
Exactly. And like fistorm above I also would have no problem buying additional storage in the cash shop and I hope they add that soon. It's very much a convenience item.
I even understand why LOTRO nerfed them for free players since the F2P system is different from B2P because they have no way of making money from new players other than by cash shop sales. But it's an important difference.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Can anyone tell me if the dungeon tool has been upgraded?
And do you guys think that there will be chance to buy Xp pots like in Swtor? (Since my main char is like only 12 i think hehe)
The LFG tool has been worked on, but it either still doesn't work right or people haven't used it for so long, that not that many use it. Sometimes it goes fast, other times it gets hung-up on something. But it's hung up because others still use it without issue at the same time.
There will be an XP booster in the Crown store. They will be the same boosters that are available to plus members - 10% increase to XP gain. No pricing on these yet.
Originally posted by Tyr216 It sounds like console players are getting screwed if they want to subscribe because not only will they have to pay for their PSN/XBL service, but they'll also have to pay for the sub. If this is the case, I'm not sure I'll be playing the console version, as much as I was wanting to.
I bought FarCry4 for $60 great game..guess what had to pay for DLC, or pay for the season pass to get the new stuff...nothing new about this model.
FarCry4 isn't an MMO. It's a singleplayer game, designed and marketed as a single pllayer game. ESO is an MMO, designed and marketed as such. Single player games have DLC, MMOs have patches. The phrase DLC should not even be in a MMO developers vocabulary.
This is not what B2P MMOs look like. They're selling you a picture of an MMO fixed in time and then asking for a subscription if you actually want patches. You don't pay box price for an MMO and expect to only get what it has on launch, you do it because you want to play then and keep playing as it evolves. What fucking good is owning ESO circa March of 2015 going to do for me a year from now? Two years from now? What the hell are these people doing?
Originally posted by Holyavenger1 Any words on the box price changing? That's the biggest entry barrier to play imo and the reason I didn't give that game another try after beta.
Definitely not changing box price on Steam, retail of official site any time soon. You can get it for under $30 at key resellers right now. Incidentally, that means your B2P actually starts now as all game code currently include 30-days of game time too.
This is not what B2P MMOs look like. They're selling you a picture of an MMO fixed in time and then asking for a subscription if you actually want patches.
First of all. Says who? Didn't GW2 just announce or release a PAID expansion? How is this any different? Secondly, they are not selling you "patches". Patches and new game mechanics are included. Think bug fixes, balance patches, spell crafting, poison making, PVP portion of the Justice system - all confirmed included in the base game going forward. Now want to play any of this and you need to either buy it or become a subscriber by getting a plus membership. New zones should not and are not free.
Originally posted by Tyr216 It sounds like console players are getting screwed if they want to subscribe because not only will they have to pay for their PSN/XBL service, but they'll also have to pay for the sub. If this is the case, I'm not sure I'll be playing the console version, as much as I was wanting to.
I bought FarCry4 for $60 great game..guess what had to pay for DLC, or pay for the season pass to get the new stuff...nothing new about this model.
FarCry4 isn't an MMO. It's a singleplayer game, designed and marketed as a single pllayer game. ESO is an MMO, designed and marketed as such. Single player games have DLC, MMOs have patches. The phrase DLC should not even be in a MMO developers vocabulary.
This is not what B2P MMOs look like. They're selling you a picture of an MMO fixed in time and then asking for a subscription if you actually want patches. You don't pay box price for an MMO and expect to only get what it has on launch, you do it because you want to play then and keep playing as it evolves. What fucking good is owning ESO circa March of 2015 going to do for me a year from now? Two years from now? What the hell are these people doing?
You mustn't have been playing mmos like EQ1 when there was no such thing as "content patches". The words content patch and MMO simply did not go together.
Not until AC did we start to see some content - small monthly patches.
For other games though you bought the content. And you had the option of buying it via download: hence DLC.
It was only in 2004 when people started grumbling about the archaic subscription - to use the term Iselin used above (same arguments by the way!) when some games started to include content with the sub. The sales pitch: no need to buy any future content. Which lasted 2 years in WoW's case and then they released paid content - Burning Crusade was big but at the end of the day it wasn't included with the sub; it was "big DLC and as a result more expensive".
There is no reason why content should be funded by a subscription; or paid for as DLC; or funded via cash shop purchases. These are just business models; nothing to do with single player vs. mmo.
GW1 produced 10 expansions was it and everyone of those was "paid". Destiny uses DLC - and will probably have expansions as well. Nothing single player about Destiny. Stripped to the bare bones Destiny and TESO are essentially "the same" games played by many people using a megaserver(s) that employs phasing. All the rest is trimmings.
And who knows if TESO had launched as B2P there might have been far more new content by now - because the sub model hasn't managed to deliver much. Lots of patches and change but new content - not a lot. Compare that what Skyrim released in just over a year.
Originally posted by fistorm So what we are really looking at is a system much like the LOTRO turbine points system, and nothing beyond that. I think LOTRO got it right with buy to play, they started going pay to win when they added stats to the store though. I think ESO would be able to pull this off if they kept it to how LOTRO did it when they first opened their store.
Popular misconception it seems. I was there at the time LOTRO went F2P. They were always very aggressive with their shop -- even at the start -- with their downgrading of character slots, bag slots, etc. for the free players and selling it back to you in the cash shop.
ESO has done zero nerfing of free accounts.
For 60$ which you will need to shell out for ESO you could have everything unlock on any character you wanted along with 4 months of sub (so all content unlocked) and accumulate Turbine points through playing to spend in cash shop as you wish (and you can grind unlimited TPs if you want to) on top of what you get monthly from sub.
There is NO free in ESO. What are these free ESO accounts you mention? Did anyone get their ESO account free? I could use one.
As far as financials go, LOTRO was/is MUCH better deal.
And, just for teh record, LOTRO never downgarded any charater, you dontt lose ANYTHING character wise if you let your sub lapse and never did (and sub completely unlocks your character). So no, they never "sold you back" anything. Where are these missinformations coming from?
Future content (not cosmetic and convenience items) can be bought in the crown store.
Does anyone else see the issue here?
Not really an issue since that seems to be the trend when games convert from subs to a cash shop with special non-refundable game currency. They are basically acknowledging the past subscriptions but putting emphasis on the value of a continued or future subscription. They simply want players to keep spending or giving them more money.
That said I think 1500 crowns for past months subscriptions would have made a better loyalty gift to the players that stuck with them for as long as they did. But if ZOS did that then they really wouldn't be able to squeeze more money from them since a lot of those guys would be sitting on piles of 13k crowns. Not sure if their cash shop has enough stuff to make someone want to spend that much crowns, unless for those people that like to collect mounts and costumes.
Originally posted by fistorm So what we are really looking at is a system much like the LOTRO turbine points system, and nothing beyond that. I think LOTRO got it right with buy to play, they started going pay to win when they added stats to the store though. I think ESO would be able to pull this off if they kept it to how LOTRO did it when they first opened their store.
Popular misconception it seems. I was there at the time LOTRO went F2P. They were always very aggressive with their shop -- even at the start -- with their downgrading of character slots, bag slots, etc. for the free players and selling it back to you in the cash shop.
ESO has done zero nerfing of free accounts.
For 60$ which you will need to shell out for ESO you could have everything unlock on any character you wanted along with 4 months of sub (so all content unlocked) and accumulate Turbine points through playing to spend in cash shop as you wish (and you can grind unlimited TPs if you want to) on top of what you get monthly from sub.
There is NO free in ESO. What are these free ESO accounts you mention? Did anyone get their ESO account free? I could use one.
As far as financials go, LOTRO was/is MUCH better deal.
And, just for teh record, LOTRO never downgarded any charater, you dontt lose ANYTHING character wise if you let your sub lapse and never did (and sub completely unlocks your character). So no, they never "sold you back" anything. Where are these missinformations coming from?
You can read the rest of it yourself and probably make sense of it...
As to your hissy fit over my use of the word "free" for ESO... I'll go right back and edit it to "not-subbed" just for you and other literally minded people determined to find something to bitch about.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Future content (not cosmetic and convenience items) can be bought in the crown store.
Does anyone else see the issue here?
So... if McDonald's decides they're going to give you a cheeseburger every month for free, you're going to see an issue because you had to pay for them when they weren't free?
Past sub value = you got to play the game when a sub was required... the 100 crowns are just a bonus.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by fistorm So what we are really looking at is a system much like the LOTRO turbine points system, and nothing beyond that. I think LOTRO got it right with buy to play, they started going pay to win when they added stats to the store though. I think ESO would be able to pull this off if they kept it to how LOTRO did it when they first opened their store.
Pretty much, yeh. As far as ESO keeping their store a certain a way? I'm sure it will change eventually and I think most here understand that. It's all going to depend on the amount of income they make off of subs, their cash shop, console sales, yadda yadda. Now that the title is going to b2p we might (or might not) see another resurgence of gold sellers which might force them to change their ideas on what cash shop items should and shouldn't be account bound to keep money in ZOS's pockets instead of some seller's.
"This decision came about more from the perspective of listening to what our community members had to say and analyzing their playing habits."
What playing habits led them to the conclusion we wanted a cash shop? Absolute PR nonsense. 'Pay the way you want', give us a break, call it what it is and stop using slogans to disguise the fact this will end up anything other than Pay to Win.
FarCry4 isn't an MMO. It's a singleplayer game, designed and marketed as a single pllayer game. ESO is an MMO, designed and marketed as such. Single player games have DLC, MMOs have patches. The phrase DLC should not even be in a MMO developers vocabulary.
Your point would have been valid...if EQ did not release DLC (called expensions, but really they are the same) every years since it release. DLC is just a new term for expensions and they have been part for forever in both MMO and Singeplayer game. Back when the term was first use my guess is that DLC where rather small (like an extra unit and such) these days it could mean a simple texture pack, to a complete expension or actually mean a complete game.
I find it interesting that MMORPG now make a level-scaling system for the content they have.
I feel like the vertical component of levelling is becoming more and more obsolete in modern MMORPGs. Make a levelling that restricts zones based on the level, and then make a system so that the character level scale to the zone the character is in is redundant.
I'm waiting for the MMORPG who will have the balls to completly drop the vertical component of the leveling (The number inflation) but will keep the horizontal component (Skill/stat points). We'll be able to do the content in the order we want, it'll be sweet.
For those saying the free players have been denied nothing by being free, it seems like that's a matter of perspective.
If a sub player gets these things then they are denied to the free player unless there is an alternate method in play. My guess is that's where the crown store potions come into play, they did mention that there would be some coming.
1500 crowns + access to dlc
10% bonus to experience point gain
10% bonus to crafting research
10% bonus to crafting inspiration gain
10% bonus to gold acquisition
Whether you chop the free player's experience by 10% in those areas openly or give it as a bonus to the paid players... the point is still that the free player is at a 10% deficit in those areas. It's just in the way you want to word it.
After all, the crowns you are buying are the sub price and the DLC access is to keep you subbed or you lose access to areas or content that you haven't purchased separately. The crowns are the way to get you hooked to spending the virtual currency. When you run out one day and have to buy more it will seem completely natural at that point because you've had them at all times. In your mind they are part of the gameplay. The 10% up or down is just a way to make it slower on the free players or less profitable as an incentive to sub.
They could have said the bonus for being a sub was this.
1500 crowns + access to dlc
No decrease to experience point gain
No decrease to crafting research
No decrease to crafting inspiration gain
No decrease to gold acquisition
And buy to play penalty was these 4 penalties unless you enhance your gameplay by subbing.
10% decrease to experience point gain
10% decrease to crafting research
10% decrease to crafting inspiration gain
10% decrease to gold acquisition
... and it would have said the same thing. Perspective.
Comments
Except LOTRO REDUCED their inventory slots on the main game when they changed payment models. They made it worse - intentionally to entice a cash shop purchase or membership. ESO is changing nothing about the base game in its conversion. Just an observation.
now we know the truth. They were too busy building a cash shop and developing the console release to give us what they promised before launch.
I love the game, but have no respect left for ZOS.
Exactly. And like fistorm above I also would have no problem buying additional storage in the cash shop and I hope they add that soon. It's very much a convenience item.
I even understand why LOTRO nerfed them for free players since the F2P system is different from B2P because they have no way of making money from new players other than by cash shop sales. But it's an important difference.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Honestly i cannot wait untill the game goes b2p. I just paid 1 months sub for wow, played like an hour then left again haha....
Can anyone tell me if the dungeon tool has been upgraded?
And do you guys think that there will be chance to buy Xp pots like in Swtor? (Since my main char is like only 12 i think hehe)
The LFG tool has been worked on, but it either still doesn't work right or people haven't used it for so long, that not that many use it. Sometimes it goes fast, other times it gets hung-up on something. But it's hung up because others still use it without issue at the same time.
There will be an XP booster in the Crown store. They will be the same boosters that are available to plus members - 10% increase to XP gain. No pricing on these yet.
FarCry4 isn't an MMO. It's a singleplayer game, designed and marketed as a single pllayer game. ESO is an MMO, designed and marketed as such. Single player games have DLC, MMOs have patches. The phrase DLC should not even be in a MMO developers vocabulary.
This is not what B2P MMOs look like. They're selling you a picture of an MMO fixed in time and then asking for a subscription if you actually want patches. You don't pay box price for an MMO and expect to only get what it has on launch, you do it because you want to play then and keep playing as it evolves. What fucking good is owning ESO circa March of 2015 going to do for me a year from now? Two years from now? What the hell are these people doing?
Definitely not changing box price on Steam, retail of official site any time soon. You can get it for under $30 at key resellers right now. Incidentally, that means your B2P actually starts now as all game code currently include 30-days of game time too.
https://www.g2a.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-key-global.html
First of all. Says who? Didn't GW2 just announce or release a PAID expansion? How is this any different? Secondly, they are not selling you "patches". Patches and new game mechanics are included. Think bug fixes, balance patches, spell crafting, poison making, PVP portion of the Justice system - all confirmed included in the base game going forward. Now want to play any of this and you need to either buy it or become a subscriber by getting a plus membership. New zones should not and are not free.
You mustn't have been playing mmos like EQ1 when there was no such thing as "content patches". The words content patch and MMO simply did not go together.
Not until AC did we start to see some content - small monthly patches.
For other games though you bought the content. And you had the option of buying it via download: hence DLC.
It was only in 2004 when people started grumbling about the archaic subscription - to use the term Iselin used above (same arguments by the way!) when some games started to include content with the sub. The sales pitch: no need to buy any future content. Which lasted 2 years in WoW's case and then they released paid content - Burning Crusade was big but at the end of the day it wasn't included with the sub; it was "big DLC and as a result more expensive".
There is no reason why content should be funded by a subscription; or paid for as DLC; or funded via cash shop purchases. These are just business models; nothing to do with single player vs. mmo.
GW1 produced 10 expansions was it and everyone of those was "paid". Destiny uses DLC - and will probably have expansions as well. Nothing single player about Destiny. Stripped to the bare bones Destiny and TESO are essentially "the same" games played by many people using a megaserver(s) that employs phasing. All the rest is trimmings.
And who knows if TESO had launched as B2P there might have been far more new content by now - because the sub model hasn't managed to deliver much. Lots of patches and change but new content - not a lot. Compare that what Skyrim released in just over a year.
For 60$ which you will need to shell out for ESO you could have everything unlock on any character you wanted along with 4 months of sub (so all content unlocked) and accumulate Turbine points through playing to spend in cash shop as you wish (and you can grind unlimited TPs if you want to) on top of what you get monthly from sub.
There is NO free in ESO. What are these free ESO accounts you mention? Did anyone get their ESO account free? I could use one.
As far as financials go, LOTRO was/is MUCH better deal.
And, just for teh record, LOTRO never downgarded any charater, you dontt lose ANYTHING character wise if you let your sub lapse and never did (and sub completely unlocks your character). So no, they never "sold you back" anything. Where are these missinformations coming from?
Past sub monthly value - 100 crowns
Future sub monthly value - 1500 crowns
Future content (not cosmetic and convenience items) can be bought in the crown store.
Does anyone else see the issue here?
Not really an issue since that seems to be the trend when games convert from subs to a cash shop with special non-refundable game currency. They are basically acknowledging the past subscriptions but putting emphasis on the value of a continued or future subscription. They simply want players to keep spending or giving them more money.
That said I think 1500 crowns for past months subscriptions would have made a better loyalty gift to the players that stuck with them for as long as they did. But if ZOS did that then they really wouldn't be able to squeeze more money from them since a lot of those guys would be sitting on piles of 13k crowns. Not sure if their cash shop has enough stuff to make someone want to spend that much crowns, unless for those people that like to collect mounts and costumes.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
From the original LOTRO plans chart from 2010:
https://tagn.wordpress.com/2010/06/05/lotro-comparing-vip-with-free/
See that column on the right?
Character slots 1/server - can purchase more
Inventory 3 bags - can purchase more
Chat, Mail, Auctions - limited...
You can read the rest of it yourself and probably make sense of it...
As to your hissy fit over my use of the word "free" for ESO... I'll go right back and edit it to "not-subbed" just for you and other literally minded people determined to find something to bitch about.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So... if McDonald's decides they're going to give you a cheeseburger every month for free, you're going to see an issue because you had to pay for them when they weren't free?
Past sub value = you got to play the game when a sub was required... the 100 crowns are just a bonus.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Pretty much, yeh. As far as ESO keeping their store a certain a way? I'm sure it will change eventually and I think most here understand that. It's all going to depend on the amount of income they make off of subs, their cash shop, console sales, yadda yadda. Now that the title is going to b2p we might (or might not) see another resurgence of gold sellers which might force them to change their ideas on what cash shop items should and shouldn't be account bound to keep money in ZOS's pockets instead of some seller's.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
"This decision came about more from the perspective of listening to what our community members had to say and analyzing their playing habits."
What playing habits led them to the conclusion we wanted a cash shop? Absolute PR nonsense. 'Pay the way you want', give us a break, call it what it is and stop using slogans to disguise the fact this will end up anything other than Pay to Win.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Your point would have been valid...if EQ did not release DLC (called expensions, but really they are the same) every years since it release. DLC is just a new term for expensions and they have been part for forever in both MMO and Singeplayer game. Back when the term was first use my guess is that DLC where rather small (like an extra unit and such) these days it could mean a simple texture pack, to a complete expension or actually mean a complete game.
I find it interesting that MMORPG now make a level-scaling system for the content they have.
I feel like the vertical component of levelling is becoming more and more obsolete in modern MMORPGs. Make a levelling that restricts zones based on the level, and then make a system so that the character level scale to the zone the character is in is redundant.
I'm waiting for the MMORPG who will have the balls to completly drop the vertical component of the leveling (The number inflation) but will keep the horizontal component (Skill/stat points). We'll be able to do the content in the order we want, it'll be sweet.
The devs have stated multiple times that the 10% bonus is just that, a 10% bonus on the current exp gold and crafting rates. . .
And stop saying "free" the game isn't free. . .
Subless players (the ones you mistakenly call free) are not being denied anything from the game as it is now when a sub is required.
In fact they are gaining something. . .access to the game. . .
How's that for perspective. . .