Looks like what is happening here is a sad case of the bean counters getting there grubby fingers on the development of the game.
When EQN was announced, it looked like the saviour of the genre.
Everything they said at that initial briefing was what we as players wanted to hear and they had some defining ideas on how to progress the MMORPG genre going forward.
Sadly, every announcement since has shown the corrupting influence from the marketing people and bean counters.
For me you build the game you want build first, then you work out how to monetise it. Not the other way around.
So what we thought we were getting and where the development has headed ever since seem two vastly different directions.
Really? It looks much more like the problem was there were not enough "bean counters" to start off with. It did look amazing when it was announced, and then instead of setting strict but realistic timetables to make the game they seemed to wander all over the place in some wishy-washy hype train.
If only they had had some down to earth "bean counter", otherwise known as "a good business manager" we may well have been looking at an EQN release this year, instead of the mess they are in now with Landmark still in basically alpha form and EQN a distant dream.
I remember when they revealed that we would be seeing EQN in some form in the near future (aka Landmark). Everyone in the press was confused about why they were releasing both Landmark and EQN. People still are. And there is a good reason for that. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. If only they had someone with business savy, not just great salesmanship and vision at the helm.
"Bean counters" are not bad, without them we probably couldn't play these great games at all.
I dont think for a second this game is dead. Nova bought SoE for a reason and its clear it was not to chop EQN on the block.
I think that reason is to milk H1Z1 and Planetside 2 for all they're worth.
Originally posted by gervaise1
There are two scenarios.
Option 1: the EQN team knew about the lay-offs and work with Storybricks (the company) ending and all the plans they made in the back end of 2014 were based on the new team.
Option 2: the lay-offs were a bolt from the blue. Even if rumours had been circulating it was probably a long running rumour and when it finally happened it was a shock.
I'm going to go with option 2. I've been part of a corporate takeover before. Typically there's an NDA clause in effect while the transition is happening (review of accounting records, etc.), so probably only Smedley and the suits at Sony knew what was going on. The rank and file found out probably over some sort of conference call and DBG released a press release the same day. Apart from rumors flying around, most people weren't in the know that anything was going on.
Totally agree. CN will have bought SOE for the revenue stream. (Sony having stripped out the development costs when they took a corporate charge last year).
And as part of the accounting review - given how quickly the lay-offs happened - staffing profiles will have been discussed and formed part of the discussion. Even at $50k a head severance pay for 200 people would be $10M - non-trivial. The alternative being that CN came in with no idea and wielded an indiscriminate axe - nah!
So going forward future development will be closely tied to how well the existing games perform. If they perform "less well" there will be "less development". And as revenue projections over time will decline the clock on EQN will be ticking. And CN will have the option - if revenue dries up - of closing development and simply running the existing games until they are no longer profitable.
I don't think anyone can seriously believe that, x years down the line and with an unknown amount invested so far, CN will shut down the only possible goose that lays golden eggs - EQN. In fact, I believe that EQN is the VERY REASON CN decided to acquire SoE. They'll probably change the business model and make it either B2P or P2P like WoW, depending on the projected retention of players.
I dont think for a second this game is dead. Nova bought SoE for a reason and its clear it was not to chop EQN on the block.
I think that reason is to milk H1Z1 and Planetside 2 for all they're worth.
Originally posted by gervaise1
There are two scenarios.
Option 1: the EQN team knew about the lay-offs and work with Storybricks (the company) ending and all the plans they made in the back end of 2014 were based on the new team.
Option 2: the lay-offs were a bolt from the blue. Even if rumours had been circulating it was probably a long running rumour and when it finally happened it was a shock.
I'm going to go with option 2. I've been part of a corporate takeover before. Typically there's an NDA clause in effect while the transition is happening (review of accounting records, etc.), so probably only Smedley and the suits at Sony knew what was going on. The rank and file found out probably over some sort of conference call and DBG released a press release the same day. Apart from rumors flying around, most people weren't in the know that anything was going on.
Totally agree. CN will have bought SOE for the revenue stream. (Sony having stripped out the development costs when they took a corporate charge last year).
And as part of the accounting review - given how quickly the lay-offs happened - staffing profiles will have been discussed and formed part of the discussion. Even at $50k a head severance pay for 200 people would be $10M - non-trivial. The alternative being that CN came in with no idea and wielded an indiscriminate axe - nah!
So going forward future development will be closely tied to how well the existing games perform. If they perform "less well" there will be "less development". And as revenue projections over time will decline the clock on EQN will be ticking. And CN will have the option - if revenue dries up - of closing development and simply running the existing games until they are no longer profitable.
Why would you expect 200 people to get $50K each for severance? Usually it's two weeks salary, and in the case of the cuts at EQ, I heard many of those let go were contractors and thus wouldn't be entitled to any severance.
Originally posted by Galadourn I don't think anyone can seriously believe that, x years down the line and with an unknown amount invested so far, CN will shut down the only possible goose that lays golden eggs - EQN. In fact, I believe that EQN is the VERY REASON CN decided to acquire SoE. They'll probably change the business model and make it either B2P or P2P like WoW, depending on the projected retention of players.
Yes I seriously believe that could happen.
Counter-question: do you believe that CN will take the approach: "We are not making much money but heh if we spend enough (tens of millions) the next game or the one after or the one after that will turn out to be the next <<insert dream here>>.
I don't.
To be clear I am not saying they will simply stop development but that the clock is ticking. That there is a timeframe during which new products like EQN have to launch.
If the existing games do "better" - whatever the business model(s) used are - that gets them more time; if they do less well there will be less time. And if EQN or whatever launches the next game will depend on how well it does.
No safety net. No corporate Sony to write off $60M. Sink or swim. The job of DBG is to deliver some money to CN; if it exceeds its target there will probably be bonuses; if it makes less staff cuts and less development. Very simple.
This is not an unprecedented situation; lots of examples in industry.
Why would you expect 200 people to get $50K each for severance? Usually it's two weeks salary, and in the case of the cuts at EQ, I heard many of those let go were contractors and thus wouldn't be entitled to any severance.
We had the post from - Dave Georgeson was it - saying that the severance was generous. Two weeks generous? No.
A lot of long serving, senior staff were let go. And given the average salaries I could see a much higher figure for some.
However I just used $50k to show that severance pay was probably a factor in the price. Unless we believe that CN simply came in and said QA: axed; coms: axed and so on.
(The contractors would just get whatever was due; impression was the contractor cuts e.g. Storybricks! were over and above the 200 as well.)
Looks like what is happening here is a sad case of the bean counters getting there grubby fingers on the development of the game.
When EQN was announced, it looked like the saviour of the genre.
Everything they said at that initial briefing was what we as players wanted to hear and they had some defining ideas on how to progress the MMORPG genre going forward.
Sadly, every announcement since has shown the corrupting influence from the marketing people and bean counters.
For me you build the game you want build first, then you work out how to monetise it. Not the other way around.
So what we thought we were getting and where the development has headed ever since seem two vastly different directions.
I suspect bean counters as well. Perhaps to avoid paying out licensing fees. There is also the chance that SB wasn't living up to the ideal vision of it. There could also be too much work/costs in using the system. Think VO in swtor. I doubt we will hear the details anytime soon.
I don't think this is a case of bean counters somehow wrestling control of the game from the developers. It is more likely a case of SOE loosing access to their unlimited funding from Sony as SOE has been running in the red for a long time. Sony is selling off their negative cash flow divisions and focusing things they do well.... entertainment being one of them which says just how poorly SOE must have been doing to not be included in that.
SOE (now Daybreak) can no longer take as much time and resources as they want to work on this game. The changes in scope and focus we are seeing are most likely a result of the new reality SOE lives in. SOE now has to now live within a set budget and answer to deadlines all with a company that is roughly 50% the size it was a few weeks ago. A budget most likely set by the revenue they can generate from their existing games.
Personally I think EQN is going to release, but it is going to suffer from the original vision of what they wanted to do. There just are not enough resources anymore and anything that cannot reasonable be finished in time will either be eliminated or scaled down to something minimal. That is why the new project leader isn't willing to commit to saying anything. Instead they are once again talking about evaluating the game to "see what makes sense". Even the revenue model isn't set, which should be a huge warning sign, because not all game designs fit all revenue models and visa versa.
SOE has always over promised and under delivered, but that was when they had plenty of resources to waste.
Originally posted by Galadourn I don't think anyone can seriously believe that, x years down the line and with an unknown amount invested so far, CN will shut down the only possible goose that lays golden eggs - EQN. In fact, I believe that EQN is the VERY REASON CN decided to acquire SoE. They'll probably change the business model and make it either B2P or P2P like WoW, depending on the projected retention of players.
I suspect you may be right that CN plans to release EQN, but I highly doubt they expect it to be a golden egg laying goose.
EQN has been in the works for almost 6 years and already been scrapped and rebooted 3 times with almost nothing to show for the efforts. Even by SOE standard this game was shaping up to be a failure.
I think CN looked at the numbers for SOE and figured that they could make positive revenue off existing games by cutting down staff and the ridiculous development costs SOE was previously spending on games. I don't think they expect EQN to be a massive success, but if it even limps along like EQ/EQ2 it will just add more revenue.
Looks like what is happening here is a sad case of the bean counters getting there grubby fingers on the development of the game.
When EQN was announced, it looked like the saviour of the genre.
Everything they said at that initial briefing was what we as players wanted to hear and they had some defining ideas on how to progress the MMORPG genre going forward.
Sadly, every announcement since has shown the corrupting influence from the marketing people and bean counters.
For me you build the game you want build first, then you work out how to monetise it. Not the other way around.
So what we thought we were getting and where the development has headed ever since seem two vastly different directions.
I suspect bean counters as well. Perhaps to avoid paying out licensing fees. There is also the chance that SB wasn't living up to the ideal vision of it. There could also be too much work/costs in using the system. Think VO in swtor. I doubt we will hear the details anytime soon.
I don't think this is a case of bean counters somehow wrestling control of the game from the developers. It is more likely a case of SOE loosing access to their unlimited funding from Sony as SOE has been running in the red for a long time. Sony is selling off their negative cash flow divisions and focusing things they do well.... entertainment being one of them which says just how poorly SOE must have been doing to not be included in that.
SOE (now Daybreak) can no longer take as much time and resources as they want to work on this game. The changes in scope and focus we are seeing are most likely a result of the new reality SOE lives in. SOE now has to now live within a set budget and answer to deadlines all with a company that is roughly 50% the size it was a few weeks ago. A budget most likely set by the revenue they can generate from their existing games.
Personally I think EQN is going to release, but it is going to suffer from the original vision of what they wanted to do. There just are not enough resources anymore and anything that cannot reasonable be finished in time will either be eliminated or scaled down to something minimal. That is why the new project leader isn't willing to commit to saying anything. Instead they are once again talking about evaluating the game to "see what makes sense". Even the revenue model isn't set, which should be a huge warning sign, because not all game designs fit all revenue models and visa versa.
SOE has always over promised and under delivered, but that was when they had plenty of resources to waste.
NGE BEFORE release, that is a first for Smedley.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
So much for the "Vision" ... recalls me of something btw ... wasn't that one of Brad's favorite statement s? ^^
I was quite disappointed that EQN would look bad (cartoonish and way too many lighting effects in combat, manga like style). But now if the "awesome ground breaking never seen before" features must suffer from Daybreak buy out too, this game won't be something I'm gonna like.
Remember what "N" is supposed to mean in "EQN" ?
Ok, no nay-saying, so we'll see what we'll see ... but this has been said so many times for other SOE games and we can just behold the dire results today. Freaks me out ...
Lest we forget, Sony, the company, is moving away from the PC market... they didn't give a rats ass who bought the division, they only wanted to get rid of it without taking a considerable loss.
Sony has nothing to do with these assets anymore. They cut all ties. They could care less.
Consoles in the future? No brainer. Mobile in the future? Ditto ditto. If you want to recover from financial disaster, you turn to the markets with the greatest potential growth.
I think the reason you are seeing so many kickstarters is not because of developer independence and freedom but rather because the market is shifting away from the PC platform. If they want to continue developing games for this platform, they are going to have to go independent.
Pretty sure most of the new titles on Blizzards' plate are slated for console and mobile... the times are a changing. PCs are losing the war.
Sony isn't moving away from PC's, they are moving away from much of their money losing divisions, which is primarily tier consumer electronics. It is rumored that mobile phones are next and televisions may follow if they can find someone dumb enough to buy those divisions.
Remember, SOE doesn't just make PC games, it is just the only place they ever had success. SOE has had at least three console based MMO's, several web based games, mobile phone games and even Facebook games as well as several attempts at being a game publisher. SOE should have been a natural fit in Sony's refocus on the consumer facing divisions that do make money: movies, music and video games/consoles, but it was sold instead.
Phones, televisions, computers, media players are/were at the core of Sony's financial problems. I think the only non-hardware division that was losing money was SOE.
Comments
Really? It looks much more like the problem was there were not enough "bean counters" to start off with. It did look amazing when it was announced, and then instead of setting strict but realistic timetables to make the game they seemed to wander all over the place in some wishy-washy hype train.
If only they had had some down to earth "bean counter", otherwise known as "a good business manager" we may well have been looking at an EQN release this year, instead of the mess they are in now with Landmark still in basically alpha form and EQN a distant dream.
I remember when they revealed that we would be seeing EQN in some form in the near future (aka Landmark). Everyone in the press was confused about why they were releasing both Landmark and EQN. People still are. And there is a good reason for that. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. If only they had someone with business savy, not just great salesmanship and vision at the helm.
"Bean counters" are not bad, without them we probably couldn't play these great games at all.
Totally agree. CN will have bought SOE for the revenue stream. (Sony having stripped out the development costs when they took a corporate charge last year).
And as part of the accounting review - given how quickly the lay-offs happened - staffing profiles will have been discussed and formed part of the discussion. Even at $50k a head severance pay for 200 people would be $10M - non-trivial. The alternative being that CN came in with no idea and wielded an indiscriminate axe - nah!
So going forward future development will be closely tied to how well the existing games perform. If they perform "less well" there will be "less development". And as revenue projections over time will decline the clock on EQN will be ticking. And CN will have the option - if revenue dries up - of closing development and simply running the existing games until they are no longer profitable.
Why would you expect 200 people to get $50K each for severance? Usually it's two weeks salary, and in the case of the cuts at EQ, I heard many of those let go were contractors and thus wouldn't be entitled to any severance.
Yes I seriously believe that could happen.
Counter-question: do you believe that CN will take the approach: "We are not making much money but heh if we spend enough (tens of millions) the next game or the one after or the one after that will turn out to be the next <<insert dream here>>.
I don't.
To be clear I am not saying they will simply stop development but that the clock is ticking. That there is a timeframe during which new products like EQN have to launch.
If the existing games do "better" - whatever the business model(s) used are - that gets them more time; if they do less well there will be less time. And if EQN or whatever launches the next game will depend on how well it does.
No safety net. No corporate Sony to write off $60M. Sink or swim. The job of DBG is to deliver some money to CN; if it exceeds its target there will probably be bonuses; if it makes less staff cuts and less development. Very simple.
This is not an unprecedented situation; lots of examples in industry.
We had the post from - Dave Georgeson was it - saying that the severance was generous. Two weeks generous? No.
A lot of long serving, senior staff were let go. And given the average salaries I could see a much higher figure for some.
However I just used $50k to show that severance pay was probably a factor in the price. Unless we believe that CN simply came in and said QA: axed; coms: axed and so on.
(The contractors would just get whatever was due; impression was the contractor cuts e.g. Storybricks! were over and above the 200 as well.)
I don't think this is a case of bean counters somehow wrestling control of the game from the developers. It is more likely a case of SOE loosing access to their unlimited funding from Sony as SOE has been running in the red for a long time. Sony is selling off their negative cash flow divisions and focusing things they do well.... entertainment being one of them which says just how poorly SOE must have been doing to not be included in that.
SOE (now Daybreak) can no longer take as much time and resources as they want to work on this game. The changes in scope and focus we are seeing are most likely a result of the new reality SOE lives in. SOE now has to now live within a set budget and answer to deadlines all with a company that is roughly 50% the size it was a few weeks ago. A budget most likely set by the revenue they can generate from their existing games.
Personally I think EQN is going to release, but it is going to suffer from the original vision of what they wanted to do. There just are not enough resources anymore and anything that cannot reasonable be finished in time will either be eliminated or scaled down to something minimal. That is why the new project leader isn't willing to commit to saying anything. Instead they are once again talking about evaluating the game to "see what makes sense". Even the revenue model isn't set, which should be a huge warning sign, because not all game designs fit all revenue models and visa versa.
SOE has always over promised and under delivered, but that was when they had plenty of resources to waste.
I suspect you may be right that CN plans to release EQN, but I highly doubt they expect it to be a golden egg laying goose.
EQN has been in the works for almost 6 years and already been scrapped and rebooted 3 times with almost nothing to show for the efforts. Even by SOE standard this game was shaping up to be a failure.
I think CN looked at the numbers for SOE and figured that they could make positive revenue off existing games by cutting down staff and the ridiculous development costs SOE was previously spending on games. I don't think they expect EQN to be a massive success, but if it even limps along like EQ/EQ2 it will just add more revenue.
NGE BEFORE release, that is a first for Smedley.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
So much for the "Vision" ... recalls me of something btw ... wasn't that one of Brad's favorite statement s? ^^
I was quite disappointed that EQN would look bad (cartoonish and way too many lighting effects in combat, manga like style). But now if the "awesome ground breaking never seen before" features must suffer from Daybreak buy out too, this game won't be something I'm gonna like.
Remember what "N" is supposed to mean in "EQN" ?
Ok, no nay-saying, so we'll see what we'll see ... but this has been said so many times for other SOE games and we can just behold the dire results today. Freaks me out ...
Lest we forget, Sony, the company, is moving away from the PC market... they didn't give a rats ass who bought the division, they only wanted to get rid of it without taking a considerable loss.
Sony has nothing to do with these assets anymore. They cut all ties. They could care less.
Consoles in the future? No brainer. Mobile in the future? Ditto ditto. If you want to recover from financial disaster, you turn to the markets with the greatest potential growth.
I think the reason you are seeing so many kickstarters is not because of developer independence and freedom but rather because the market is shifting away from the PC platform. If they want to continue developing games for this platform, they are going to have to go independent.
Pretty sure most of the new titles on Blizzards' plate are slated for console and mobile... the times are a changing. PCs are losing the war.
Sony isn't moving away from PC's, they are moving away from much of their money losing divisions, which is primarily tier consumer electronics. It is rumored that mobile phones are next and televisions may follow if they can find someone dumb enough to buy those divisions.
Remember, SOE doesn't just make PC games, it is just the only place they ever had success. SOE has had at least three console based MMO's, several web based games, mobile phone games and even Facebook games as well as several attempts at being a game publisher. SOE should have been a natural fit in Sony's refocus on the consumer facing divisions that do make money: movies, music and video games/consoles, but it was sold instead.
Phones, televisions, computers, media players are/were at the core of Sony's financial problems. I think the only non-hardware division that was losing money was SOE.