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What ever happend to camping for xp?
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You run into a problem when for 90% of the game so far you would be an idiot to group up, because progression is quest based and you would only slow each other down. And when the game pace isnt social friendly.. if you have to stop playing to socialize rather when you can talk while you fight or if you have to rest between fights or wait for pulls or respawns and you can fill the time socializing.
Then you are all of a sudden forced into a group of egos, where noone knows how to play in a group and everyone is out for themselves. Even if have started the game with a guild full of RL friends, it is pointless to team up with them until "The ENDGAME"
Grinding camps encourages groups. But in most cases you could also solo that content if you prefered to play that way..
But in modern MMOs, with the focus on quests, we have been forced to solo. And that makes it so frustrating when you actually need a group to do a dungeon or an epic quest. And with the fast progression of modern MMOs you even blitz through that content and invalidate most of the strategy you just figured out, since you will be done with a dungeon or epic quest inside of an hour or two. And now you are 5 levels higher and have new skills and new solo quests.
It is so frustrating to see someone get a nice drop on the first run through and thinking that it would be perfect for you. Only to realize; that in order to get that drop for yourself you would have to play through the dungeon 5-10 more times, gaining 10 levels and making the item hopelessly outdated. And if you had just stuck to solo questing you would be handed much better gear.
I'd be more than happy to check those out though I suspect these aren't mainstream games and are probably some esoteric asian games?
We'll see as some of their more "cartoony" over the top offerings aren't my taste.
That's why Black Desert is so appealing to me.
I'll also add that if it was "that easy" then all of us could just go back to "some game" and be done with it. Yet, there are, I suspect, legitimate reasons we aren't playing some of those games.
However, I think that the thrust of this thread is the desire to have more options for mainstream mmo's. If we ever get any more ; )
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Whiners and those who cry about it have ruined this, thats why the old school mmo's are gone.
These days people bloody excuse is time sink(instant lvl90 what a joke) and they all want there cookies fast so they can all brag about it thank WoW for this crap attitude and rest of MMO makers followed same rule and mind set.
Hardcore is gone only few old school mmo's left out there and even some of them are dumb down to please the casual gamer:(
And know ive played one of last true hardcore mmo's around Darkfall 1 ruined by cheaters whiners and crybabys(not even carebears go figure(not for xp but grind skill and rare items of mobs) now we have garbage like DUW bah:(
Will never be same EVER.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
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I'm not going to claim it isn't "a matter of perception", since I try not to underestimate the ability of people to fail to perceive things. However a failure to perceive things doesn't dictate the truth. The earth is still round, and typical quest drive still does result in greater gameplay variety than endless-mob-grind.
With mob-camps you're penalized for variety. Any time spent moving to another set of mobs is time not spent earning XP.
With quests, you're penalized for repetition. If you don't experience the variety offered by the quests, you earn less XP. (Assuming quest XP is balanced.)
When it comes to the details of what players are actually doing, good quest design provides more variety.
Balancing the rewards is possible, but would likely just result in a worse game. If it's an equal rate of reward to quest or to sit somewhere endlessly farming mobs, players are going to choose the simpler thing and then become bored of the game faster (because the simpler thing is also very boring because it requires less thought.)
I'm not sure I would call any MMORPG a "PVP game", as MMORPGs are very PVE-centric as a genre and fundamentally offer bad/casual PVP. But sure there's no reason every activity shouldn't be rewarding relative to the challenge involved.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
What about no XP?
I've always thought it'd be a cool idea, but really hard to pull off, where you learned new skills and earned new equipment by achieving and/or discovering certain things, not some arbitrary XP/skill grind or loot farming.
Like, in order to learn the sword skill "Blade Dancer's Whirlwind" you had to seek out an ancient trainer located atop a sacred mountain in a far away land... protected by the anguished spirits of failed adventurers too weak to complete the journey...
Once you reach the ancient sword master, you were actually taught the skill and tested how to use it effectively in a series of trials you could only hope to complete by mastering the use of Blade Dancer's Whirlwind.
Once your trial was completed, the master would send you on the final task - to fight your way into the heart of the mountain and defeat the evil spirit-lord. Upon your return with proof of the spirit-lord's demise, the master would present you with a Blade Dancer's Blade - a sword specially created only by ancient masters using secret, centuries old techniques...
Totally random example, but you get the point.
The obvious problem is that within 4 hours there would be guides and maps all over the internet laying out the locations of everything you need and the most efficient routes to take to maximize your path.
Also creating a "quest" of this type for each and every skill in the game would, most likely, would become just as much of a grind your typical XP/levels/skills/quests.
If you aren't relying on player skill as much - movement, aim, timing, etc. and you are going the typical RPG route, itself a variation on the Heroes Journey storytelling tradition...
XP/skill whatever systems are just easy to represent in computer language.
Can you prove that point?
If I started out in a game with limited quests or not quests there is no telling what I might do next. I might go around talking to NPCs and seeing what they had for sale. I might go off in one direction and see what is at a certain area. I might continue on to try and see what's beyond and how to get to another city. I might try out different zones to see what they have to offer in terms of mobs, loot, and scenery.
In terms of questing how much of the zones do you actually use? Probably just the parts where you are told to go. This is where you theory kind of proves false IMO. Questing is becoming more and more linear. Especially with GPS mechanics. There are less and less starting areas and each have a definitive path from start to finish. During the course of this path there isn't much challenge to be had and it's designed that way intentionally. There may be a number of different quests, but they all consist of clicking on this, following that, and clicking on this. There may be a few different orders to the that path, but it's more or less like that in most MMOs.
In older MMOs you would likely go out, explore, and try many different areas in zones until you found a spot you were comfortable with. If you were adventurous then you might even try some dungeons with a group of other people. If you were way of above x dungeons level you might try to camp something solo.
There is generally more options in a game that allows you to choose your own path. A questing game doesn't allow you to choose your own path. If we were to take a modern day single player game example it might be like saying Gears of War has more variety then something like Dark Souls or Grand Theft Auto because the variation in your linear path is faster and has a variety of different click combinations.
Is that actually true? Why then do most power-levelers (those who hit cap in 24 hrs or so) generally mob grind their way there? At least according to them (they essentially run spin groups). Anyway, this dilemma has always been there, keep up with Jones' or enjoy the game in full, it's really up to you. It's a matter of playing to be competitive (in PVE that really makes no sense) or playing for the "journey". As they say, you can't have your cake and eat it too...
ANother issue I have with this statement is, through experience, I really don't see it being that much faster to quest grind, as that requires lots of travel and downtime between XP gain. Mob grinding is a steady non-stop flow of xp gain.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't think it would matter as much if the developers really did make it hard.
For instance if there were no GPS that would automatically make it more difficult for people since they are used to having something to follow around these days.
The difficulty to complete the quest at certain points could also be quite complicated if the developers really wanted to make it so. They just don't because they want it to be more accessible to everyone. It's more money for them. You would need a developer who is more interesting in challenging it's player base then maximizing it's profits.
This is called hunting. For those clueless to it's appeal: it is something humans have been doing for tens of thousands of years. You also stand still doing fishing and then reveal you enjoy the peacefulness of it. Hunting is the same thing. You focus on one event that may take you days to accomplish. You may have a very few people with you and conversation fills the down times.
This has massive appeal in mmos and always will. Old large mmos offered this because the scope of the world was so massive that rare and hidden areas existed. There was a shit ton of other activities to do for those not into such game play. Sure the actual mechanics of camping were sometimes faulty but that does not take away from the essence of the act.
Humans are hunters and hunting is the act of the pursuit ... it is NOT the act of killing. That would be the kill, not the hunt. Mmos of recent years completely removed the hunt and left us only with mass slaughter. This is what some players miss. Old school mmos are a slower and more realistic world to play in. It offered better simulation for real world activities whereas newer mmos are more like arcade games that stepped outside of side scrolling to the extreme. It is a very different experience and this is what people are trying to convey.
Old school mmos are like Canada ... a place where tons of Americans go to hunt because their country lacks the space and freedom to do so anymore. Mmo players simply want that freedom back. This is rather the fucking point of fantasy games: to return to more simple times where the thrill of the unknown still exists. The freedom to explore still exists. Many players today lack this allurement because they lack any form of it in real life awash in information granting illusion of actual understanding. This does not mean to debate old mechanics that can be updated. It is the understanding that styles of game play were wiped out because the of the constricted nature of the ever shrinking and linear based conversion of the mmo in modern times.
It doesn't matter that you may not like to hunt of camp. An mmo should still be large enough to allow it for those that do. It doesn't matter that old mmos has a plethora of limitations and faults. Modern design can resolve these. The point is that this game play was not allowed to evolve and was thrown aside by large developers to be scraps for indie companies (until recently). Many of you are not debating the point the OP makes because you do not identify nor likely relate to what those games offered that no longer exists in nearly all of todays mmos: freedom.
You stay sassy!
I have a solution.
the MMOs should add instanced grinding spots that could take in full group and you can camp at 5$/hour.
It's a good explanation, and I can actually relate to this. On a different note, I also feel card games, table top wargames, or a good pint at the pub are slow paced activities that give you more time to bond (maybe not for days though).
Is the complaint that MMOs are too fast paced and action packed then? Because they are designed to be consumed in short bursts (dungeons or PvP).
Have these "hunting sessions" really disappeared from modern MMOs?
Maybe it has in GW2 with the event-based content, but other MMOs probably have rare roaming monsters, don't they?
On a side note, "hunting" was a complete mess in Aion where people were camping the spots and figuring out the respawn times, and you would have to pay some guild a fee to participate or whatever.
Information and knowledge killed the spontaneity, not MMO designs.
Unfortunately, you are right on the money. Very few MMOs are made with the intent of being anything more than a cash grab these days. They want to you feel like to achieve a lot in a little amount of time...get bored...then buy some shinies. Rinse, repeat.
Now, which one of you will adorn me today?
My point being, pointing to one SMALL group of players playing a specific way (gotta max as quickly as possible!) does not negate what Sovrath said. MOST of us players will choose the easiest path. If killing 5 Orcs gives you 25XP and maybe some loot and doing one quest gives 100XP (PLUS the XP for any mobs killed) AND specific gear upgrades, guess which path "most of us" will take?
In today's "fast paced MMOs", camping is just not a very "efficient" way to play the game. Sure, it can be done. But when one camp pull gives you 1 level, what's the point of "camping" it?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
My best MMO memories revolve around mob XP grind and similar activities.
P.S. I hear they want to launch Lineage II EU up to C4... and nothing more. Looking forward to that one.
+100. Great thoughts here, especially Kill vs. Hunt. I am bored by kills, but LOVE the hunt.
What you decribe about AION is the problem that PVP brings to a game. Not a problem with camping; it is also why most old school PVE'rs hate PVP.
Uhhh yes the fuck it does. It negates what he said pretty fucking directly. The guy you quoted even highlighted the part where it directly negates what he said in red. His claim was questing was the best way to level and stay competitive and viable. That's obviously not true when in most games ignoring quests and grinding on mobs or in GW2's case, crafting, is the best way to level.
Seriously, how the fuck did you even sit there and type with a straight face that it doesn't negate what Sovrath said? Also, you don't need loot while questing. And if you really wanted it, 1-2 dungeon run every 10 levels is enough. Also you're completely forgetting the fact that in your little scenario, while the quest may give as much xp as 4 mobs killed plus the mobs you had to kill to do the quest, you have to take the time to actually run to the quest npc, accept the quest, then run to where the mobs are, do what you could have done right from the very beginning and kill mobs, then run back to the quest npc and turn the quests in.
All of that downtime is time that could have been spent killing, which is exactly why in most cases, skipping quests and grinding > doing quests when factoring efficiency. It's the case in a lot of games. Even FFXIV this is true. It's why dungeons are usually the most preferred method because its pretty much the same thing as grinding mobs, except they're elites, in dense packs and thus more difficulty which means more exp. The only thing is dungeons are usually dependant on a decent group otherwise you're better off soloing in the open world mobs.
Even fate grinding(which is another form of mob grinding, but with an "event" exp added on top of it that doesn't require you to run to an npc to accept a quest run back to quest area, do quest, then run back to npc to turn it in) is better than questing in FFXIV. The smart people grinded on mobs and did a fate if one just happened to pop near them that didn't require a lot of travel because travel time kills xp efficiency.(granted you have to do the main scenario quests to unlock almost everything in FFXIV)
And now for my add to the conversation....
A couple of you touched on it just above, but I'd like to highlight the point, that is, that ever since items become bound (typically as a factor of level); camping and slow game play died.
The hunt in the past was not about leveling (at least not for the given character to be enjoyed). Leveling was about proceeding to greater content; this allowed you both to explore new areas, traverse old areas with less risk, and most important of all hunt for powerful items.
Today's games share that in part, but the spirit has shifted. The items that are useful only at high levels mean you end up running out of items for your character -- up until the cash shop or next paid release hits. It's an endless wait on devs and money.
Old games differed in that you sought out powerful items for your main, but also for your alts, your friends, your lower leveled guildies, your pride, etc.
Items mattered well beyond your own character's acquiring of them.
High level characters could even simply buff and help out lower level characters; keep trash mobs cleared etc.
The old scheme of unbound items enabled all of the fun we seek now and do not find.
Why does it not exist?
Idiots complained at first. But then I suspect the devs released that removing these from the game made us much more dependent on them (course they neglect the boredom factor). We must keep buying all the new crap to keep happy or we starve to death.
That's a new insight for me -- connection between bound items and the shift away from cooperative gameplay.
I believe the reason they started binding items was because there were so many of the same item in the game at some point.
It's a bit ironic because now everyone gets the same loot through quests. I prefer the old system, but it's hard to make it work without having some kind of item decay that eventually destroys the item and creates the need for replacing it. It is especially important if crafting is a big part of the game.
People used to randomly give me items in EQ in vanilla before the bind on equip happened. In truth the equipment didn't help all that much due to it having such minor improvements. Often it would be something like 2 AC more, 2 damage more, or a few points of delay faster. Considering how hard the mobs hit it wasn't a whole lot of help in most cases.
People who want group gamplay, don't just want it for a reason to group. They want group gameplay because they want a harder game. Trying to please both crowds at the same time is futile because if you make the game hard enough to encourage grouping, it will prevent soloing. If you make a solo path, people take the express way and people grouping are left behind.
You need different types of games. Trying to create a game that appeals to everyone is what got us in this mess to begin with.