Originally posted by Wizardry I think the OP misses the point entirely but maybe he wasn't around back when gaming started seriously on PC's?It is not a matter of games were better than now,it was a matter of developers getting all they could out of C code,limited Microsoft libraries and just overall limited technical knowledge.Now fast forward,developers have TONS of knowledge,tons of resources,better Libraries thanks to Microsoft,better GPU bandwidth to work with,better code and what do they do with all that,they make games that could be made 15 years ago.So their effort is extremely sub par when compared to what they COULD be doing.So when you hear stuff like "we listen" and we are building the best game possible,they are listening to what they want to hear and doing what their budget calls for,they are NOT listening and definitely not making the best game they can.Just look at SC as one example.What do we hear the most about this game,it's tech?It's size?It's systems?It's depth?NO we hear about the ships they have for sale.Look at H1Z1,they CLAIMED their game was Alpha phase,early access gaming.Over 3 months they have made the news twice for their cash shop,not exactly an effort to get the game to a QUALITY state when all your worried about is the cash shop.Go check out Steam and see how many of those early access,Greenlight games are still being worked on and how many have been stagnant for a year.EVERYTHING now is a quick cash grab,nobody is putting out FINISHED products.Where else in society do we give out money for half ass?I mean if you got half your newspaper,i bet you would complain right?If your case of Beer had only 22 bottles instead of 24 ,complain right?If your cigarette pack was short 3 cigs,complain right?SO why does gaming get a free ride for unfinished work or half ass effort?[
This shows a lack of understanding of what it takes to make any game of the scope of a modern AAA MMORPG.. You expect to get it all, because of tools available...Then comparing games made over 20 years ago, when failing to acknowledge, there wasn't nearly as much going on under the hood. Your post goes all over the place without providing any real logical point... DO you not realize how much time, resource as well as funds are put into these titles?
I am getting tired of reading this "excuse" for piss poor games. If one can NOT do their job, move on. Developers way back when were actually breaking new ground by experimentation. Trial and error was truly the modus operandi.
Because of what happened decades ago, the tools today are MUCH better, and easier to use. If they are not, they are piss poor tools, aren't they? Who invents tools that makes a job more difficult? Apparently game developers?
Running a business means MAKING the allocations for the projects. Allocate time needed. Allocate resources needed. Allocate money needed. Allocate the education needed. You make it sound like nobody in the industry seems to know their head from their ass. I do not believe this is true.
As Wizardry pointed out, they certainly have very little trouble getting their cash shops to work. Makes one wonder where their priorities are... NOT
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Foomerang Some friendly advice: Challenge yourself to not do what you think you're supposed to do. Pick an MMO and literally force yourself to play how you want to play and forget the trappings. Forget about the treadmills and quest hubs. Just do what you want. You will be surprised how much the game opens up to you and how many other people are playing the same way. It's like when you see a car you like and then you start seeing it everywhere. Trust yourself to play an MMO the way you want.
This is actually some great advice.
From my own point of view, that is "rewarding" companies for the sub-par games they put out. I will not participate in that practice.
Many do, and this is why companies will never look at what is actually happening and being enjoyed by many players.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Well obviously the newbies have it the best now. They get their easy mode instant gratification gameplay that they were used to on the console games, but now it never ends because it is an mmo! And if the mmo sucks it doesn't matter because they just leave and go play other ones since everything is free to play. And if all the f2p games suck they can just go back to CoD or Halo or whatever the fuck kids these days play.
But for us old schoolers who don't even play mmo's anymore because they are all the same. We have jack shit. We play random things to try to keep ourselves busy till the next great hope comes along, to just immediately crush our hopes with a shitty launch missing every feature that drew us in.
The progress of this genre has killed it. There is no more mmorpg's. It is just shitty lobby games disguised as mmo's.
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
In my experience (bouncing back and forth from being a "bitter vet" to accepting reality) I honestly think MMORPG's need to "step their game up". Like Loke666 was saying, the formula for mmo's has been the same for almost 16, thats close enough to 20.
I have the same issue with super heroes and comics etc... They celebrated 75 years of superman recently....75 years.... The rehashed son of kypton is still bringing in $$$bank though.
You can call it weary, or bitter etc... Playing basically the same game for almost 2 whole decades WILL become tiresome. They have not invented a gear grind / level grind THAT interesting, not yet anyway.
"The best position"? Well, everyone who is alive has the best position. There are always new and exciting games coming out, even if they are only singleplayer. That is, if enough Vets can manage to stay alive to keep DEV's / Corporations from stagnating. In that regard, noobs have it sorta suck, they wouldn't necessarily realize their favorite game is just another ladder grind. They might even be programmed to think the grind is fun.
Gaming experiences are entirely subjective and anyone that says their way of experiencing gaming is better is always wrong. The person that is wrong the most is the ones that starts calling others name.
With that said, much of what made older mmorpg's interesting has been replaced by convenience which lessens the experience for a huge amount of players. Most mmorpg's has really bad player retention which was the old quality check, if people keep playing its a good MMO, if people ditch out within 3 months its a bad one.
One thing is getting more obvious, investors don't believe in mmorpg's like they used to, everquest and UO spawned games like daoc, eve, swg and WoW, and the batch of games we had in recent years were spawned by the success of WoW. I don't see the current batch of mmorpg's spawning new games, AAA money is put on making moba's or online shooters instead.
What we see now is indie development of games that resemble early mmorpg's, so its clear that western game developers don't believe that the key to the future is the current batch of mmorpg's.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
There's a generational gap there, too, though. Gen X was much like the silent generation, working hard for inches gained. Millenials, or people 20s to low 30s today, are more like the entitled hippies, or baby boomers of the late 60s/early 70s. This disparity all happened back then in music art and culture, and now, for the last 10ish years, it's been happening again. Don't worry. Your kids will likely bring civilization back to something more akin to "admirable" again. You guys just keep being you.
You didn't miss much (except for watching it all "unfold").
Even with updated graphics many of the older MMOs would be dismissed as rubbish by the great majority of players today. Many of them were full of horrible gameplay elements that served little purpose except to create timesinks. Sitting down to "rest" for a minute after whacking a few mobs would have most people quitting the game very quickly these days.
Timesinks like the never ending gear grind of doing instanced dungeons and raids.. With lockouts that PREVENT you from farming said instances, and forcing you play the game for unnecessary weeks and months on end? Timesinks like in crafting, where only certain epic materials have a cooldown that force you to wait weeks to get enough mats to complete the recipe? lmaooooooo See how this works.. I give you perfect examples of today's game that you refuse to accept and recognize, but you freely bash old games over what you call a timesink.. LOL
Now as for the resting part.. I see nothing wrong with that.. To me that is just another form of "micro" management of my character OUT OF COMBAT.. It forces me to use my time and resources in an optimal manner.. If you burn through your mana to nuke a mob and leave nothing left for emergencies, that should be part of playing.. Those were not timesinks, but just part of playing.. Eating a Mage biscuit that restores 100% of your health and man in seconds after a fight to me is crazy spoiled..
Then there were death penalties that you had to rest off for x amount of time (cumulative even if I'm remembering some of them correctly) forcing even more downtime on you. Death penalties that could rob you of days of progress if your internet failed you, or if some jerk trained you with a gazillion mobs or griefed you in some other way.
Darn those death penalties.. You mean the same ones where raiding members have to do 3 days of dailies to pay for the repair bill.. How dare a game penalize you for failing.. In all the years I've played EQ I was never train grieved.. NEVER.. In fact that seldom happen on my server.. We the community had NO tolerance for that behavior, and trust me, when a person earned a bad reputation, they are done for.. Most often if an accidental train did happen, normally there was always a cleric or two close by to help do rez's with no $$$ incentive to do so.. It was just a nice thing to do.. Most of the time people exchanged favors/buffs freely amongst adventuring groups.. I don't know how many times I gave out "speed" SOW as a druid to people outside my group, and was always given thanks along with a $$ or buff donation..
I'll take today's games anytime.
And you can play today's gaming all you want.. I just don't understand why you are so vocal and resistant to allow others to enjoy what they want.. You strike me as the type of guy that goes and protest at Burger King because you hate hamburgers, because you prefer chicken at Chik Fil A.. Why does it bother you so much that I like burgers?
"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"
Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.
The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.
Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.
Who has the best position? Don't know.
I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
You didn't miss much (except for watching it all "unfold").
Even with updated graphics many of the older MMOs would be dismissed as rubbish by the great majority of players today. Many of them were full of horrible gameplay elements that served little purpose except to create timesinks. Sitting down to "rest" for a minute after whacking a few mobs would have most people quitting the game very quickly these days.
Then there were death penalties that you had to rest off for x amount of time (cumulative even if I'm remembering some of them correctly) forcing even more downtime on you. Death penalties that could rob you of days of progress if your internet failed you, or if some jerk trained you with a gazillion mobs or griefed you in some other way.
I'll take today's games anytime.
This. This, so much. I don't need to a game that punishes me left and right. I need a place to explore and roleplay.
Tell me, how is that working out for you? The old games are still vastly superior to roleplay in and explore than anything new.
If you can't cope with death penalties because you suck at playing the game then that's too bad.
If you can't spend an hour concentrated on a task before you go shouting "The grind is so hard" then you need to go play Tetris.
If you can't play a game that is actually a challenge instead of a collection of buttons and pinhatas that give you stuff for free then i feel really sad for you.
Well obviously the newbies have it the best now. They get their easy mode instant gratification gameplay that they were used to on the console games, but now it never ends because it is an mmo! And if the mmo sucks it doesn't matter because they just leave and go play other ones since everything is free to play. And if all the f2p games suck they can just go back to CoD or Halo or whatever the fuck kids these days play.
But for us old schoolers who don't even play mmo's anymore because they are all the same. We have jack shit. We play random things to try to keep ourselves busy till the next great hope comes along, to just immediately crush our hopes with a shitty launch missing every feature that drew us in.
The progress of this genre has killed it. There is no more mmorpg's. It is just shitty lobby games disguised as mmo's.
Unfortunately this. Currently i'm waiting for some RvR action in Camelot Unchained.
Games WERE better back then. Not in terms of graphics or sound or any of the technical aspects of internet gaming, but they were most certainly better in terms of gameplay.
Early EQ, SWG before all the changes, Ultima Online and Asheron's Call. Those games had serious game systems whether it was crafting or group combat or questing or whatever.
WOW became popular because it was solo friendly and everything was easy, and that was the end of that.
It's sort of rare for things to devolve, usually things get better with time, but MMO gaming is certainly the exception to that rule. If you were not around for those early years 1999-2003 or so, you missed out on the best the genre had to offer. Anyone who played then will tell you there is no comparison with those games and the games today.
I can't speak to most of those games, but 99% of your time in Asheron's Call was eaten up by traveling (non-gameplay) and super shallow combat (debuff>nuke>nuke>nuke...)
So saying that it had better gameplay conveniently ignores the fact that 99% of the game was eaten up by really shallow activities.
Did it have some great systems in it? Absolutely. Their progression system was great, and the vassal system was great.
But in terms of actual gameplay, it was awful. Huge timesinks and nearly devoid of interesting decisions apart from planning out your character (which is an infrequent long-term decision.) Measured against games of the same year (AOE2, UT, Q3, Alpha Centauri, System Shock 2, BG, Freespace 2) it was an absolute joke in terms of gameplay. (Wow 1999 was a freaking incredible year for gaming. The comparison was a lot more brutal than I expected.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Games WERE better back then. Not in terms of graphics or sound or any of the technical aspects of internet gaming, but they were most certainly better in terms of gameplay.
Early EQ, SWG before all the changes, Ultima Online and Asheron's Call. Those games had serious game systems whether it was crafting or group combat or questing or whatever.
WOW became popular because it was solo friendly and everything was easy, and that was the end of that.
It's sort of rare for things to devolve, usually things get better with time, but MMO gaming is certainly the exception to that rule. If you were not around for those early years 1999-2003 or so, you missed out on the best the genre had to offer. Anyone who played then will tell you there is no comparison with those games and the games today.
I can't speak to most of those games, but 99% of your time in Asheron's Call was eaten up by traveling (non-gameplay) and super shallow combat (debuff>nuke>nuke>nuke...)
So saying that it had better gameplay conveniently ignores the fact that 99% of the game was eaten up by really shallow activities.
Did it have some great systems in it? Absolutely. Their progression system was great, and the vassal system was great.
But in terms of actual gameplay, it was awful. Huge timesinks and nearly devoid of interesting decisions apart from planning out your character (which is an infrequent long-term decision.) Measured against games of the same year (AOE2, UT, Q3, Alpha Centauri, System Shock 2, BG, Freespace 2) it was an absolute joke in terms of gameplay. (Wow 1999 was a freaking incredible year for gaming. The comparison was a lot more brutal than I expected.)
Wow... this here is the truth if I've even seen it.
In the end they're just video games; if you can't find something you like among them try investing your time in a different hobby. If it's not that simple to you then I guess you're stuck.
The new MMOs have a tremendous focus on Action and Combat. This is the shift that has taken place. One of the buggiest and broken MMOs in history was also one of the best. (For those who liked it) SWG. Why? Layered Meta Games. There were so many other things to do. I'm not going to get into all the options available to a player but it was nothing like today. Today, in your MMO if you aren't fighting something (with Twitch combat) you aren't really doing anything meaningful to advance your character.
To the older MMO Gamers, Combat was more of a means to an end. I know I didn't pay much attention to it. As long as it worked efficiently, was fluid and not overly clunky, it was fine. Now it's all about Telegraphs and dodge buttons. I liked it better when I could theorycraft. When spending time learning how the game's mechanics affected my game play and I would have to make detailed decisions about how I was going to build my character and what they could and couldn't do as a result. Older MMOs were more cerebral, now they are more visceral, there is less preparation and more reflex based. Looking at Anarchy Online., if you have played it, then you know what real Twinking and laddering means. No other game before or since has allowed so much customization as to how you can build a character and how far you can go to equip that character beyond what would normally be possible. It was an art.
Why did MMORPGs change and move away for the Meta Games? Many reasons that have been discussed, More players than earlier which makes it harder to please everyone. Many players not wanting the level of repetition in older games, etc. But one I think that has come into play that isn't' discussed is the business model. Many of the Meta Game layers from the older games, revolved around some kind of economy. Sometimes it was a player economy, sometimes it wasn't (Older releases of WoW had a deeper focus on the economy than the game currently does) When a game has a heavy economy focus with deep crafting and where in game money really matters, it becomes nearly impossible to balance when players can just buy currency in game.
"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"
Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.
The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.
Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.
Who has the best position? Don't know.
I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
For me, my patience is worn out. I hate gear grinds in a competitive environment such as instanced pvp that makes me useless and I have to put up with 100s possibly above 500s of hours to get good enough gear for pvp. Ruins the want to alt and try new things in the same mmo.
Pvp gear grinds should be something minimal. Raids and pve gear grinds should have high drop rates. I dont like to repeat raids just for a piece of armor.
The dev can try to reward players different by making their content more replayable. Make the dungeon dynamic and load differently but also offer diffferent rewards for beating certain times and rare drops for a recipe to make raid gear for example.
I find content is designed mostly to cover up how plain and limited certin experiences are with long grinds and impossible scenarios in pvp. I would prefer to find out I dont like a class early on knowing its maximum capabilities in pvp rather than invest 500 hours to get top gear. Which could have been spent playing alts in the same MMO as well.
So point being, gear grinds take too long for me as a veteran of mmos. I hate it, and makes me more cynical of the content of repeating rather than enjoying the content. Again, the gear grind design makes people focus less on the actual content (which might be medicore) and more on the grind. I would rather be bored of a class that I have done everything in regards with pvp rather than depressed, also considering being bored with one class does not mean its over for the MMO... there are alts/ other classes.
And new MMOs offer variety of quest mechanics. That is key. Groupoing content, solo, mini games etc, while older and small games have less variety. So, the journey also becomes more enjoyable in newer games or more developed games. Swtor is solid in this regard for VO and class story (side quests are lame- but there is group content as well while lvling), and I would say WoW does a decent effort of mixing it up a bit with different mechanics and pet battles, but maybe there are too many side quests that take away from the epicness of the main stories in WoW... and it would be better to just have dynamic events with different quest mechanics and some bounty hunting for npcs and main class stories. side questing is becoming a bane to my mmo existence.
In my mind... i imagine a new kind of fun mmo combat. Imagine an fps system but with lots of hotkeys and cds like an MMO. You load the spell by pressing hotkey, and fire it like it were an fps. Its a fps and mmo hybrid while bringing the fluidity of fps games with their movements and strafing tactics, im sure its been done similarly in other games ... maybe darkfall? but i think darkfall is more mmo than my suggested idea where you have to load it first then fire.
tdlr; Gear grinds dont work well for vets imo. And limits experience for alting.
I really dislike the mini games that were added to WoW recently. I don't mind if there were mini games like chess, fishing, etc, but the air bombing is terrible IMO.
I also greatly dislike how the world is broken and there are never ending battles everywhere you go. I much preferred the spread out zones where you could just walk around and not much was going on except for seeing normal things like animals wandering through the forest or other real people walking around doing things or not.
I am not one of the people who need constant action. I prefer to enjoy exploring completely different terrains, how they impact gameplay, and what areas/creatures can be found within them.
MMO vets are like old folks today they still listen to the music they listen to when they were young, they don't care for new music, sure there are some odd old folk here and there who dance to techno but they are rare.
Some of us predate mmorpgs by a long shot. I had the pleasure of playing video games a good twenty years before the first mmorpg came out. And I never stopped myself from experiencing all platforms, all genres. Consoles, PC, handheld, arcade everything you name it.
I've played games long enough to know there is no such thing as one true formula. There is always the possibility of experiencing something new even if at first glance it may seem the same old thing.
This. Before the computer games, I played board games and military miniature games (ex: chainmail!) then dnd came about. I love playing games. All kinds of games. There isn't one true formula. I do think some people came into the hobby to play a game or two but don't realize that games are not a hobby for them. Gamers are actively playing games.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by Wizardry I think the OP misses the point entirely but maybe he wasn't around back when gaming started seriously on PC's?
It is not a matter of games were better than now,it was a matter of developers getting all they could out of C code,limited Microsoft libraries and just overall limited technical knowledge.
Now fast forward,developers have TONS of knowledge,tons of resources,better Libraries thanks to Microsoft,better GPU bandwidth to work with,better code and what do they do with all that,they make games that could be made 15 years ago.
So their effort is extremely sub par when compared to what they COULD be doing.
So when you hear stuff like "we listen" and we are building the best game possible,they are listening to what they want to hear and doing what their budget calls for,they are NOT listening and definitely not making the best game they can.
Just look at SC as one example.What do we hear the most about this game,it's tech?It's size?It's systems?It's depth?NO we hear about the ships they have for sale.
Look at H1Z1,they CLAIMED their game was Alpha phase,early access gaming.Over 3 months they have made the news twice for their cash shop,not exactly an effort to get the game to a QUALITY state when all your worried about is the cash shop.
Go check out Steam and see how many of those early access,Greenlight games are still being worked on and how many have been stagnant for a year.
EVERYTHING now is a quick cash grab,nobody is putting out FINISHED products.Where else in society do we give out money for half ass?I mean if you got half your newspaper,i bet you would complain right?If your case of Beer had only 22 bottles instead of 24 ,complain right?If your cigarette pack was short 3 cigs,complain right?SO why does gaming get a free ride for unfinished work or half ass effort?[
This shows a lack of understanding of what it takes to make any game of the scope of a modern AAA MMORPG.. You expect to get it all, because of tools available...Then comparing games made over 20 years ago, when failing to acknowledge, there wasn't nearly as much going on under the hood. Your post goes all over the place without providing any real logical point... DO you not realize how much time, resource as well as funds are put into these titles?
I am getting tired of reading this "excuse" for piss poor games. If one can NOT do their job, move on. Developers way back when were actually breaking new ground by experimentation. Trial and error was truly the modus operandi.
Because of what happened decades ago, the tools today are MUCH better, and easier to use. If they are not, they are piss poor tools, aren't they? Who invents tools that makes a job more difficult? Apparently game developers?
Running a business means MAKING the allocations for the projects. Allocate time needed. Allocate resources needed. Allocate money needed. Allocate the education needed. You make it sound like nobody in the industry seems to know their head from their ass. I do not believe this is true.
As Wizardry pointed out, they certainly have very little trouble getting their cash shops to work. Makes one wonder where their priorities are... NOT
What I said has nothing to do with a game being "piss poor" or not, even when devs try their hardest that can be the case...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by patient32Always see the same arguments."MMOs are rubbish now, in my day they were good!"VS"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.Who has the best position? Don't know.I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
For me, my patience is worn out. I hate gear grinds in a competitive environment such as instanced pvp that makes me useless and I have to put up with 100s possibly above 500s of hours to get good enough gear for pvp. Ruins the want to alt and try new things in the same mmo.
Pvp gear grinds should be something minimal. Raids and pve gear grinds should have high drop rates. I dont like to repeat raids just for a piece of armor.
The dev can try to reward players different by making their content more replayable. Make the dungeon dynamic and load differently but also offer diffferent rewards for beating certain times and rare drops for a recipe to make raid gear for example.
I find content is designed mostly to cover up how plain and limited certin experiences are with long grinds and impossible scenarios in pvp. I would prefer to find out I dont like a class early on knowing its maximum capabilities in pvp rather than invest 500 hours to get top gear. Which could have been spent playing alts in the same MMO as well.
So point being, gear grinds take too long for me as a veteran of mmos. I hate it, and makes me more cynical of the content of repeating rather than enjoying the content. Again, the gear grind design makes people focus less on the actual content (which might be medicore) and more on the grind. I would rather be bored of a class that I have done everything in regards with pvp rather than depressed, also considering being bored with one class does not mean its over for the MMO... there are alts/ other classes.
And new MMOs offer variety of quest mechanics. That is key. Groupoing content, solo, mini games etc, while older and small games have less variety. So, the journey also becomes more enjoyable in newer games or more developed games. Swtor is solid in this regard for VO and class story (side quests are lame- but there is group content as well while lvling), and I would say WoW does a decent effort of mixing it up a bit with different mechanics and pet battles, but maybe there are too many side quests that take away from the epicness of the main stories in WoW... and it would be better to just have dynamic events with different quest mechanics and some bounty hunting for npcs and main class stories. side questing is becoming a bane to my mmo existence.
In my mind... i imagine a new kind of fun mmo combat. Imagine an fps system but with lots of hotkeys and cds like an MMO. You load the spell by pressing hotkey, and fire it like it were an fps. Its a fps and mmo hybrid while bringing the fluidity of fps games with their movements and strafing tactics, im sure its been done similarly in other games ... maybe darkfall? but i think darkfall is more mmo than my suggested idea where you have to load it first then fire.
tdlr; Gear grinds dont work well for vets imo. And limits experience for alting.
Some friendly advice: Challenge yourself to not do what you think you're supposed to do. Pick an MMO and literally force yourself to play how you want to play and forget the trappings. Forget about the treadmills and quest hubs. Just do what you want. You will be surprised how much the game opens up to you and how many other people are playing the same way. It's like when you see a car you like and then you start seeing it everywhere. Trust yourself to play an MMO the way you want.
It's not as easy as doing what want in a developers world. If want to pvp I only have two options, open world or instances. If I want to farm npcs there are a set of options. You make it sound the problem is either I lack the hype to enjoy content or should try different content differently by doing things 'my' way. Which seems like an unknown but it isn't unfortunately when there are limits.
if the game has high quality features like for example swtor story then I would only want to play that for my journey. However, if I try to play my way of only doing that I will be under leveled. So the game does not open to me, but I have to adapt.
i have to adapt to grinds and time sinks and money sinks. Some games have more than others. When it's too much it's depressing and it affects the way I want to play. Side questing should optional and not forced. Pvp gear grinds should be short and allow for Alting. These are the things I want and assume other vets would want. Among other staple expectations of fun combat, high quality mmo features etc. for vets of mmos. We are limited to certain paths and options and I wish there was more horizontal progression as a trademark of what you speak...but not for theme park mmos which also have combat and quality I enjoy. Maybe there is a horizontal progressing mmo that fits more to my expectations, but I'm not aware of such a game but there is a good variety as it is, but requires a person to take a break rather than do what I want as you make it seem like options are unlimited...and by break I mean a person (myself anyways) experienced said content but instead of Alting stops playing as much due to having to repeat an extensive pvp grind for another character. It limits content of the game at that point, and the draw to return is an expansion.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Originally posted by Incomparable Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by IncomparableOriginally posted by patient32Always see the same arguments."MMOs are rubbish now, in my day they were good!"VS"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.Who has the best position? Don't know.I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
For me, my patience is worn out. I hate gear grinds in a competitive environment such as instanced pvp that makes me useless and I have to put up with 100s possibly above 500s of hours to get good enough gear for pvp. Ruins the want to alt and try new things in the same mmo.Pvp gear grinds should be something minimal. Raids and pve gear grinds should have high drop rates. I dont like to repeat raids just for a piece of armor.The dev can try to reward players different by making their content more replayable. Make the dungeon dynamic and load differently but also offer diffferent rewards for beating certain times and rare drops for a recipe to make raid gear for example.I find content is designed mostly to cover up how plain and limited certin experiences are with long grinds and impossible scenarios in pvp. I would prefer to find out I dont like a class early on knowing its maximum capabilities in pvp rather than invest 500 hours to get top gear. Which could have been spent playing alts in the same MMO as well.So point being, gear grinds take too long for me as a veteran of mmos. I hate it, and makes me more cynical of the content of repeating rather than enjoying the content. Again, the gear grind design makes people focus less on the actual content (which might be medicore) and more on the grind. I would rather be bored of a class that I have done everything in regards with pvp rather than depressed, also considering being bored with one class does not mean its over for the MMO... there are alts/ other classes.And new MMOs offer variety of quest mechanics. That is key. Groupoing content, solo, mini games etc, while older and small games have less variety. So, the journey also becomes more enjoyable in newer games or more developed games. Swtor is solid in this regard for VO and class story (side quests are lame- but there is group content as well while lvling), and I would say WoW does a decent effort of mixing it up a bit with different mechanics and pet battles, but maybe there are too many side quests that take away from the epicness of the main stories in WoW... and it would be better to just have dynamic events with different quest mechanics and some bounty hunting for npcs and main class stories. side questing is becoming a bane to my mmo existence.In my mind... i imagine a new kind of fun mmo combat. Imagine an fps system but with lots of hotkeys and cds like an MMO. You load the spell by pressing hotkey, and fire it like it were an fps. Its a fps and mmo hybrid while bringing the fluidity of fps games with their movements and strafing tactics, im sure its been done similarly in other games ... maybe darkfall? but i think darkfall is more mmo than my suggested idea where you have to load it first then fire.tdlr; Gear grinds dont work well for vets imo. And limits experience for alting. Some friendly advice: Challenge yourself to not do what you think you're supposed to do. Pick an MMO and literally force yourself to play how you want to play and forget the trappings. Forget about the treadmills and quest hubs. Just do what you want. You will be surprised how much the game opens up to you and how many other people are playing the same way. It's like when you see a car you like and then you start seeing it everywhere. Trust yourself to play an MMO the way you want. It's not as easy as doing what want in a developers world. If want to pvp I only have two options, open world or instances. If I want to farm npcs there are a set of options. You make it sound the problem is either I lack the hype to enjoy content or should try different content differently by doing things 'my' way. Which seems like an unknown but it isn't unfortunately when there are limits.
if the game has high quality features like for example swtor story then I would only want to play that for my journey. However, if I try to play my way of only doing that I will be under leveled. So the game does not open to me, but I have to adapt.
i have to adapt to grinds and time sinks and money sinks. Some games have more than others. When it's too much it's depressing and it affects the way I want to play. Side questing should optional and not forced. Pvp gear grinds should be short and allow for Alting. These are the things I want and assume other vets would want. Among other staple expectations of fun combat, high quality mmo features etc. for vets of mmos. We are limited to certain paths and options and I wish there was more horizontal progression as a trademark of what you speak...but not for theme park mmos which also have combat and quality I enjoy. Maybe there is a horizontal progressing mmo that fits more to my expectations, but I'm not aware of such a game but there is a good variety as it is, but requires a person to take a break rather than do what I want as you make it seem like options are unlimited...and by break I mean a person (myself anyways) experienced said content but instead of Alting stops playing as much due to having to repeat an extensive pvp grind for another character. It limits content of the game at that point, and the draw to return is an expansion.
In every MMO I have ever played, I had to put up with doing content I didn't care for in order to get to a place where I could play how I want. I disagree when people say they should be having a blast the minute they start playing a new MMO. You have to feel everything out. Get a plan for what you want you want to do in the game based off what the game offers. If the cons outweigh the pros, then maybe the game isn't for you. Maybe it will be in few patches or an expansion, maybe not. I went through content I didn't care for swtor in order to get to a place I enjoyed. And it was worth it for me. That's why I game. Sometimes a good challenge is just finding your place in an mmorpg. I do that to certain extents with all the game I play, just more with mmos because they tend to change more over time.
Originally posted by patient32Always see the same arguments."MMOs are rubbish now, in my day they were good!"VS"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.Who has the best position? Don't know.I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
For me, my patience is worn out. I hate gear grinds in a competitive environment such as instanced pvp that makes me useless and I have to put up with 100s possibly above 500s of hours to get good enough gear for pvp. Ruins the want to alt and try new things in the same mmo.Pvp gear grinds should be something minimal. Raids and pve gear grinds should have high drop rates. I dont like to repeat raids just for a piece of armor.The dev can try to reward players different by making their content more replayable. Make the dungeon dynamic and load differently but also offer diffferent rewards for beating certain times and rare drops for a recipe to make raid gear for example.I find content is designed mostly to cover up how plain and limited certin experiences are with long grinds and impossible scenarios in pvp. I would prefer to find out I dont like a class early on knowing its maximum capabilities in pvp rather than invest 500 hours to get top gear. Which could have been spent playing alts in the same MMO as well.So point being, gear grinds take too long for me as a veteran of mmos. I hate it, and makes me more cynical of the content of repeating rather than enjoying the content. Again, the gear grind design makes people focus less on the actual content (which might be medicore) and more on the grind. I would rather be bored of a class that I have done everything in regards with pvp rather than depressed, also considering being bored with one class does not mean its over for the MMO... there are alts/ other classes.And new MMOs offer variety of quest mechanics. That is key. Groupoing content, solo, mini games etc, while older and small games have less variety. So, the journey also becomes more enjoyable in newer games or more developed games. Swtor is solid in this regard for VO and class story (side quests are lame- but there is group content as well while lvling), and I would say WoW does a decent effort of mixing it up a bit with different mechanics and pet battles, but maybe there are too many side quests that take away from the epicness of the main stories in WoW... and it would be better to just have dynamic events with different quest mechanics and some bounty hunting for npcs and main class stories. side questing is becoming a bane to my mmo existence.In my mind... i imagine a new kind of fun mmo combat. Imagine an fps system but with lots of hotkeys and cds like an MMO. You load the spell by pressing hotkey, and fire it like it were an fps. Its a fps and mmo hybrid while bringing the fluidity of fps games with their movements and strafing tactics, im sure its been done similarly in other games ... maybe darkfall? but i think darkfall is more mmo than my suggested idea where you have to load it first then fire.tdlr; Gear grinds dont work well for vets imo. And limits experience for alting.
Some friendly advice: Challenge yourself to not do what you think you're supposed to do. Pick an MMO and literally force yourself to play how you want to play and forget the trappings. Forget about the treadmills and quest hubs. Just do what you want. You will be surprised how much the game opens up to you and how many other people are playing the same way. It's like when you see a car you like and then you start seeing it everywhere. Trust yourself to play an MMO the way you want.
It's not as easy as doing what want in a developers world. If want to pvp I only have two options, open world or instances. If I want to farm npcs there are a set of options. You make it sound the problem is either I lack the hype to enjoy content or should try different content differently by doing things 'my' way. Which seems like an unknown but it isn't unfortunately when there are limits.
if the game has high quality features like for example swtor story then I would only want to play that for my journey. However, if I try to play my way of only doing that I will be under leveled. So the game does not open to me, but I have to adapt.
i have to adapt to grinds and time sinks and money sinks. Some games have more than others. When it's too much it's depressing and it affects the way I want to play. Side questing should optional and not forced. Pvp gear grinds should be short and allow for Alting. These are the things I want and assume other vets would want. Among other staple expectations of fun combat, high quality mmo features etc. for vets of mmos. We are limited to certain paths and options and I wish there was more horizontal progression as a trademark of what you speak...but not for theme park mmos which also have combat and quality I enjoy. Maybe there is a horizontal progressing mmo that fits more to my expectations, but I'm not aware of such a game but there is a good variety as it is, but requires a person to take a break rather than do what I want as you make it seem like options are unlimited...and by break I mean a person (myself anyways) experienced said content but instead of Alting stops playing as much due to having to repeat an extensive pvp grind for another character. It limits content of the game at that point, and the draw to return is an expansion.
In every MMO I have ever played, I had to put up with doing content I didn't care for in order to get to a place where I could play how I want. I disagree when people say they should be having a blast the minute they start playing a new MMO. You have to feel everything out. Get a plan for what you want you want to do in the game based off what the game offers. If the cons outweigh the pros, then maybe the game isn't for you. Maybe it will be in few patches or an expansion, maybe not. I went through content I didn't care for swtor in order to get to a place I enjoyed. And it was worth it for me. That's why I game. Sometimes a good challenge is just finding your place in an mmorpg. I do that to certain extents with all the game I play, just more with mmos because they tend to change more over time.
Not that there is anything wrong with what you are saying when you enjoy the game with your own approach, but if mmo devs build their game to not try to be awesome from the beginning then they lose customers. So there should be something great about the game early on, but even so, in theme park mmos, players are forced to choose between the great content and not so great content to gain exp or gain exp faster( lvling with pvp is slower).
But point being ,imo , veterans of mmo prefer less down time. And I think the swtor devs recognize this and offer solutions but only temporary ones.
so nothing wring with what you are saying, but the point is about veterans of mmos. Edit; and I guess to add to your point, discovering a lot earlier than later.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
"Maybe you just don't like gaming anymore! I'm having fun!"
Feels like it's just the veterans vs the newbies.
The veterans are fed up with the same old, same old and are longing for something new and interesting and truly next gen.
Where as the newbies to MMOs, are perfectly happy. They are still not much beyond their "honeymoon period" of MMO and they never got to experience what the Veterans did "back in the day"... So they are happy with what they have and don't get why the more seasoned MMOers are so unhappy.
Who has the best position? Don't know.
I'd love to enjoy what we have now... But then, not if meant I never got experience things like "Back in the day". As I think you really "had to be there" to really appreciate the older MMOs. Newbies going back to them... I'd imagine they just seem old and boring.
You didn't miss much (except for watching it all "unfold").
Even with updated graphics many of the older MMOs would be dismissed as rubbish by the great majority of players today. Many of them were full of horrible gameplay elements that served little purpose except to create timesinks. Sitting down to "rest" for a minute after whacking a few mobs would have most people quitting the game very quickly these days.
Then there were death penalties that you had to rest off for x amount of time (cumulative even if I'm remembering some of them correctly) forcing even more downtime on you. Death penalties that could rob you of days of progress if your internet failed you, or if some jerk trained you with a gazillion mobs or griefed you in some other way.
I'll take today's games anytime.
This. This, so much. I don't need to a game that punishes me left and right. I need a place to explore and roleplay.
Tell me, how is that working out for you? The old games are still vastly superior to roleplay in and explore than anything new.
If you can't cope with death penalties because you suck at playing the game then that's too bad.
If you can't spend an hour concentrated on a task before you go shouting "The grind is so hard" then you need to go play Tetris.
If you can't play a game that is actually a challenge instead of a collection of buttons and pinhatas that give you stuff for free then i feel really sad for you.
Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
Historically in tabletop RPGs no DM worth playing with would force that sort of gameplay on players. A DM would quickly run out of players willing to put up with them if they tried to force players to do everything in real-time (including the boring uneventful parts.)
So in tabletop role-playing you are effectively tunneling/teleporting between locations. You're not experiencing every single second of that 1 month travel sequence. You're simply there at the next important location.
Any good entertainment (be it videogame or tabletop game or movie or book) skips to the interesting bits. Anything that doesn't carry an experience forward holds it back.
So it's actually not problematic at all for a MMORPGs world to be created like FFXIV's when it comes to role-playing. Role-players only need the setting. The rest is up to them. If you're choosing not to role-play somewhere it's not because that somewhere isn't suited to role-playing -- you can role-play wherever the hell you goddamn want -- it's because you have chosen not to role-play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Because of what happened decades ago, the tools today are MUCH better, and easier to use. If they are not, they are piss poor tools, aren't they? Who invents tools that makes a job more difficult? Apparently game developers?
Running a business means MAKING the allocations for the projects. Allocate time needed. Allocate resources needed. Allocate money needed. Allocate the education needed. You make it sound like nobody in the industry seems to know their head from their ass. I do not believe this is true.
As Wizardry pointed out, they certainly have very little trouble getting their cash shops to work. Makes one wonder where their priorities are... NOT
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
From my own point of view, that is "rewarding" companies for the sub-par games they put out. I will not participate in that practice.
Many do, and this is why companies will never look at what is actually happening and being enjoyed by many players.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Well obviously the newbies have it the best now. They get their easy mode instant gratification gameplay that they were used to on the console games, but now it never ends because it is an mmo! And if the mmo sucks it doesn't matter because they just leave and go play other ones since everything is free to play. And if all the f2p games suck they can just go back to CoD or Halo or whatever the fuck kids these days play.
But for us old schoolers who don't even play mmo's anymore because they are all the same. We have jack shit. We play random things to try to keep ourselves busy till the next great hope comes along, to just immediately crush our hopes with a shitty launch missing every feature that drew us in.
The progress of this genre has killed it. There is no more mmorpg's. It is just shitty lobby games disguised as mmo's.
Playing: Smite, Marvel Heroes
Played: Nexus:Kingdom of the Winds, Everquest, DAoC, Everquest 2, WoW, Matrix Online, Vangaurd, SWG, DDO, EVE, Fallen Earth, LoTRo, CoX, Champions Online, WAR, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Guild Wars, Rift, Tera, Aion, AoC, Gods and Heroes, DCUO, FF14, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, Wildstar, ESO, ArcheAge
Waiting On: Nothing. Mmorpg's are dead.
In my experience (bouncing back and forth from being a "bitter vet" to accepting reality) I honestly think MMORPG's need to "step their game up". Like Loke666 was saying, the formula for mmo's has been the same for almost 16, thats close enough to 20.
I have the same issue with super heroes and comics etc... They celebrated 75 years of superman recently....75 years.... The rehashed son of kypton is still bringing in $$$bank though.
You can call it weary, or bitter etc... Playing basically the same game for almost 2 whole decades WILL become tiresome. They have not invented a gear grind / level grind THAT interesting, not yet anyway.
"The best position"? Well, everyone who is alive has the best position. There are always new and exciting games coming out, even if they are only singleplayer. That is, if enough Vets can manage to stay alive to keep DEV's / Corporations from stagnating. In that regard, noobs have it sorta suck, they wouldn't necessarily realize their favorite game is just another ladder grind. They might even be programmed to think the grind is fun.
Gaming experiences are entirely subjective and anyone that says their way of experiencing gaming is better is always wrong. The person that is wrong the most is the ones that starts calling others name.
With that said, much of what made older mmorpg's interesting has been replaced by convenience which lessens the experience for a huge amount of players. Most mmorpg's has really bad player retention which was the old quality check, if people keep playing its a good MMO, if people ditch out within 3 months its a bad one.
One thing is getting more obvious, investors don't believe in mmorpg's like they used to, everquest and UO spawned games like daoc, eve, swg and WoW, and the batch of games we had in recent years were spawned by the success of WoW. I don't see the current batch of mmorpg's spawning new games, AAA money is put on making moba's or online shooters instead.
What we see now is indie development of games that resemble early mmorpg's, so its clear that western game developers don't believe that the key to the future is the current batch of mmorpg's.
There's a generational gap there, too, though. Gen X was much like the silent generation, working hard for inches gained. Millenials, or people 20s to low 30s today, are more like the entitled hippies, or baby boomers of the late 60s/early 70s. This disparity all happened back then in music art and culture, and now, for the last 10ish years, it's been happening again. Don't worry. Your kids will likely bring civilization back to something more akin to "admirable" again. You guys just keep being you.
Give up the labels and just play something that amuses you.
You don't need a herd to do it.
And you can play today's gaming all you want.. I just don't understand why you are so vocal and resistant to allow others to enjoy what they want.. You strike me as the type of guy that goes and protest at Burger King because you hate hamburgers, because you prefer chicken at Chik Fil A.. Why does it bother you so much that I like burgers?
Tell me, how is that working out for you? The old games are still vastly superior to roleplay in and explore than anything new.
Unfortunately this. Currently i'm waiting for some RvR action in Camelot Unchained.
I can't speak to most of those games, but 99% of your time in Asheron's Call was eaten up by traveling (non-gameplay) and super shallow combat (debuff>nuke>nuke>nuke...)
So saying that it had better gameplay conveniently ignores the fact that 99% of the game was eaten up by really shallow activities.
Did it have some great systems in it? Absolutely. Their progression system was great, and the vassal system was great.
But in terms of actual gameplay, it was awful. Huge timesinks and nearly devoid of interesting decisions apart from planning out your character (which is an infrequent long-term decision.) Measured against games of the same year (AOE2, UT, Q3, Alpha Centauri, System Shock 2, BG, Freespace 2) it was an absolute joke in terms of gameplay. (Wow 1999 was a freaking incredible year for gaming. The comparison was a lot more brutal than I expected.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Wow... this here is the truth if I've even seen it.
The new MMOs have a tremendous focus on Action and Combat. This is the shift that has taken place. One of the buggiest and broken MMOs in history was also one of the best. (For those who liked it) SWG. Why? Layered Meta Games. There were so many other things to do. I'm not going to get into all the options available to a player but it was nothing like today. Today, in your MMO if you aren't fighting something (with Twitch combat) you aren't really doing anything meaningful to advance your character.
To the older MMO Gamers, Combat was more of a means to an end. I know I didn't pay much attention to it. As long as it worked efficiently, was fluid and not overly clunky, it was fine. Now it's all about Telegraphs and dodge buttons. I liked it better when I could theorycraft. When spending time learning how the game's mechanics affected my game play and I would have to make detailed decisions about how I was going to build my character and what they could and couldn't do as a result. Older MMOs were more cerebral, now they are more visceral, there is less preparation and more reflex based. Looking at Anarchy Online., if you have played it, then you know what real Twinking and laddering means. No other game before or since has allowed so much customization as to how you can build a character and how far you can go to equip that character beyond what would normally be possible. It was an art.
Why did MMORPGs change and move away for the Meta Games? Many reasons that have been discussed, More players than earlier which makes it harder to please everyone. Many players not wanting the level of repetition in older games, etc. But one I think that has come into play that isn't' discussed is the business model. Many of the Meta Game layers from the older games, revolved around some kind of economy. Sometimes it was a player economy, sometimes it wasn't (Older releases of WoW had a deeper focus on the economy than the game currently does) When a game has a heavy economy focus with deep crafting and where in game money really matters, it becomes nearly impossible to balance when players can just buy currency in game.
I really dislike the mini games that were added to WoW recently. I don't mind if there were mini games like chess, fishing, etc, but the air bombing is terrible IMO.
I also greatly dislike how the world is broken and there are never ending battles everywhere you go. I much preferred the spread out zones where you could just walk around and not much was going on except for seeing normal things like animals wandering through the forest or other real people walking around doing things or not.
I am not one of the people who need constant action. I prefer to enjoy exploring completely different terrains, how they impact gameplay, and what areas/creatures can be found within them.
This. Before the computer games, I played board games and military miniature games (ex: chainmail!) then dnd came about. I love playing games. All kinds of games. There isn't one true formula. I do think some people came into the hobby to play a game or two but don't realize that games are not a hobby for them. Gamers are actively playing games.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
What I said has nothing to do with a game being "piss poor" or not, even when devs try their hardest that can be the case...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It's not as easy as doing what want in a developers world. If want to pvp I only have two options, open world or instances. If I want to farm npcs there are a set of options. You make it sound the problem is either I lack the hype to enjoy content or should try different content differently by doing things 'my' way. Which seems like an unknown but it isn't unfortunately when there are limits.
if the game has high quality features like for example swtor story then I would only want to play that for my journey. However, if I try to play my way of only doing that I will be under leveled. So the game does not open to me, but I have to adapt.
i have to adapt to grinds and time sinks and money sinks. Some games have more than others. When it's too much it's depressing and it affects the way I want to play. Side questing should optional and not forced. Pvp gear grinds should be short and allow for Alting. These are the things I want and assume other vets would want. Among other staple expectations of fun combat, high quality mmo features etc. for vets of mmos. We are limited to certain paths and options and I wish there was more horizontal progression as a trademark of what you speak...but not for theme park mmos which also have combat and quality I enjoy. Maybe there is a horizontal progressing mmo that fits more to my expectations, but I'm not aware of such a game but there is a good variety as it is, but requires a person to take a break rather than do what I want as you make it seem like options are unlimited...and by break I mean a person (myself anyways) experienced said content but instead of Alting stops playing as much due to having to repeat an extensive pvp grind for another character. It limits content of the game at that point, and the draw to return is an expansion.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Some friendly advice: Challenge yourself to not do what you think you're supposed to do. Pick an MMO and literally force yourself to play how you want to play and forget the trappings. Forget about the treadmills and quest hubs. Just do what you want. You will be surprised how much the game opens up to you and how many other people are playing the same way. It's like when you see a car you like and then you start seeing it everywhere. Trust yourself to play an MMO the way you want.
It's not as easy as doing what want in a developers world. If want to pvp I only have two options, open world or instances. If I want to farm npcs there are a set of options. You make it sound the problem is either I lack the hype to enjoy content or should try different content differently by doing things 'my' way. Which seems like an unknown but it isn't unfortunately when there are limits.
if the game has high quality features like for example swtor story then I would only want to play that for my journey. However, if I try to play my way of only doing that I will be under leveled. So the game does not open to me, but I have to adapt.
i have to adapt to grinds and time sinks and money sinks. Some games have more than others. When it's too much it's depressing and it affects the way I want to play. Side questing should optional and not forced. Pvp gear grinds should be short and allow for Alting. These are the things I want and assume other vets would want. Among other staple expectations of fun combat, high quality mmo features etc. for vets of mmos. We are limited to certain paths and options and I wish there was more horizontal progression as a trademark of what you speak...but not for theme park mmos which also have combat and quality I enjoy. Maybe there is a horizontal progressing mmo that fits more to my expectations, but I'm not aware of such a game but there is a good variety as it is, but requires a person to take a break rather than do what I want as you make it seem like options are unlimited...and by break I mean a person (myself anyways) experienced said content but instead of Alting stops playing as much due to having to repeat an extensive pvp grind for another character. It limits content of the game at that point, and the draw to return is an expansion.
In every MMO I have ever played, I had to put up with doing content I didn't care for in order to get to a place where I could play how I want.
I disagree when people say they should be having a blast the minute they start playing a new MMO.
You have to feel everything out. Get a plan for what you want you want to do in the game based off what the game offers. If the cons outweigh the pros, then maybe the game isn't for you. Maybe it will be in few patches or an expansion, maybe not.
I went through content I didn't care for swtor in order to get to a place I enjoyed. And it was worth it for me. That's why I game. Sometimes a good challenge is just finding your place in an mmorpg. I do that to certain extents with all the game I play, just more with mmos because they tend to change more over time.
Not that there is anything wrong with what you are saying when you enjoy the game with your own approach, but if mmo devs build their game to not try to be awesome from the beginning then they lose customers. So there should be something great about the game early on, but even so, in theme park mmos, players are forced to choose between the great content and not so great content to gain exp or gain exp faster( lvling with pvp is slower).
But point being ,imo , veterans of mmo prefer less down time. And I think the swtor devs recognize this and offer solutions but only temporary ones.
so nothing wring with what you are saying, but the point is about veterans of mmos. Edit; and I guess to add to your point, discovering a lot earlier than later.
Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble
Yep, as someone who has been roleplaying in mmorpgs since EQ1 I totally agree with this. Today's shoebox mmorpg worlds are horrible compared to the mmorpgs of yesteryear. Hell even ArcheAge with its more traditionally designed old school mmorpg world with all its glorious nooks and crannies, real sized oceans, etc makes mmos like FFXIV:ARR look pathetic with its shoebox sized world that is pretty but nothing but a bunch of interconnected tunnels. Too bad Trion/XL can't fix the damn cheaters worth a damn otherwise I'd still be there. Real world sized mmorpgs like SWG, Vanguard, EQ and hell even Vanilla WoW completely spit on todays shoebox, invisible wall mmorpgs for roleplay. Who the fuck wants to keep to the samn damn tunnel city anymore for rp, to the same damn cafe? Where are the days where you could find some random off the beaten path village for rp anymore and find an actual community there? Or even better yet find an mmorpg to play in where there are SEVERAL cities used for rp, not just one and not just the same three block radius in the middle of one. The old school mmos had features that REWARDED rp and are nowadays nothing more than que for party dungeon grinds where you don't even have to leave the damn cities anymore to get to said dungeon. Where is the journey? Not in mmos I'll tell you that!
*Amaare Margolis, Treasure Hunter Extraordinaire ;-)
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Historically in tabletop RPGs no DM worth playing with would force that sort of gameplay on players. A DM would quickly run out of players willing to put up with them if they tried to force players to do everything in real-time (including the boring uneventful parts.)
So in tabletop role-playing you are effectively tunneling/teleporting between locations. You're not experiencing every single second of that 1 month travel sequence. You're simply there at the next important location.
Any good entertainment (be it videogame or tabletop game or movie or book) skips to the interesting bits. Anything that doesn't carry an experience forward holds it back.
So it's actually not problematic at all for a MMORPGs world to be created like FFXIV's when it comes to role-playing. Role-players only need the setting. The rest is up to them. If you're choosing not to role-play somewhere it's not because that somewhere isn't suited to role-playing -- you can role-play wherever the hell you goddamn want -- it's because you have chosen not to role-play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There is nothing in old MMORPG that encourages roleplaying that doesn't exist in modern games.
Roleplaying has always been the players choice. The ones that prefer those old games just choose to rp more. That's it.