I would say that in this day and age that no game should have a subscription required. There is far too much competition in the online gaming world to really warrant nearly any new game being wildly successful with a sub fee requirement. Games like WoW and FF have been able to keep their sub fees intact mostly due to the loyal fanbases of those franchises.
The biggest problem we face as mmo fans is that games without subs or optional subs tend to gate their content to the point where you have to have a sub in order to move forward in the game. GW2 did a pretty good job of their B2P model, but even then there are some failings to that system as well.
I feel that the next round of indie developers are going to get things right for the most part.
Okay, seriously, why do people insist that it's because it's a FF game that FFXIV:ARR is alive and kicking with a sub? Do you people really not understand that:
1) FFXIV 1.0 flopped so hard they had to remake it and they basically tried to milked their IP and that failed?
2) Every Final Fantasy is different so new fans who didn't stick with 1.0 has nostalgia but don't have characters or worlds to hold onto in the main storyline besides the new iteration of summons and Cid?
3) That the Final Fantasy fanbase is heavily divided and majority hate the concept on principle of an MMO being a main number?
4) That FFXI already existed and quite a lot of fans that tried ARR ditched it for being so different from XI?
Final Fantasy is one of those brands that can be used to bring in fans and new players to check it out, but unless the game is solid enough, they are not going to stick around.
Originally posted by Moirae Sagewisdom, I created a trial account and tried to download it twice now, it gets half way through, then tells me it can't download the files for the patches, any idea whats going on?
Okay, what device are you trying to download it on? A PC, PS3 or a PS4? If a PC, sometimes antivirus software will block downloads, so disable it until you finish download.
If you are trying to download wirelessly, you might be dropping the connection somehow. Try putting in a hard wire.
Oh, I feel so dumb. That didn't even occur to me. I temporarily disabled McAfee (hate McAfee but it's provided for free by our ISP and I'm not working so can't buy another at the moment) at your suggestion. Thank you.
If you ever paid twelve dollars an *hour* for gaming, that fifteen bucks a month still feels like a bargain.
I can understand the younger kids not seeing it as such.
Different eras entirely.
It's not spending $15 or more a month that doesn't agree with me. It's renting access for $15 a month that doesn't agree with me. Before people spend $12 an hour on NWN or Prodigy they just bought their games and the DLC / expansions. It is a different era I'm thinking back to. The one before we got conned into renting online time for $12 an hour.
I can understand the whole kid soapbox mentality. It's just a wonder that some people know how much of a scam renting was back then and justify it because it's cheaper now. You could spend over a thousand dollars on WoW over the years and stop paying tomorrow and lose all that you put in.
Some folks are renters and like living their life like that. Some folks are land owners and rent as little as possible. It is more of a mentality thing than an "era" thing.
buying the games and their expansions didn't mean you owned them it just means you paid a one time fee to be granted access to the games assets in whatever interface the devs designed. If they so chose they could take it all away since you never owned anything but the plastic the disc was made of.
If you ever paid twelve dollars an *hour* for gaming, that fifteen bucks a month still feels like a bargain.
I can understand the younger kids not seeing it as such.
Different eras entirely.
It's not spending $15 or more a month that doesn't agree with me. It's renting access for $15 a month that doesn't agree with me. Before people spend $12 an hour on NWN or Prodigy they just bought their games and the DLC / expansions. It is a different era I'm thinking back to. The one before we got conned into renting online time for $12 an hour.
I can understand the whole kid soapbox mentality. It's just a wonder that some people know how much of a scam renting was back then and justify it because it's cheaper now. You could spend over a thousand dollars on WoW over the years and stop paying tomorrow and lose all that you put in.
Some folks are renters and like living their life like that. Some folks are land owners and rent as little as possible. It is more of a mentality thing than an "era" thing.
All money you spent on MMO is renting. If you buy game code, DLC or item from cash shop - you are renting it.
You don't own any stuff in F2P (or freemium or "B2P" MMO) game. Game can be changed at any time to make your purchase less worthy/ worthless or it can shut down and you can lose it "tommorow" as well.
All MMO gaming is renting. Microtransactions or subscriptions are simply an renting using diffrent pay types, but both are renting.
No idea why you compare this to owning an data disc of pre-Steam games. It has nothing in common.
Same goes for comparing buying an virtual mount to owing a land. Actually this virtual mount is renting just like renting a land or house. Nothing in common with owing a land/house.
If you ever paid twelve dollars an *hour* for gaming, that fifteen bucks a month still feels like a bargain.
I can understand the younger kids not seeing it as such.
Different eras entirely.
It's not spending $15 or more a month that doesn't agree with me. It's renting access for $15 a month that doesn't agree with me. Before people spend $12 an hour on NWN or Prodigy they just bought their games and the DLC / expansions. It is a different era I'm thinking back to. The one before we got conned into renting online time for $12 an hour.
I can understand the whole kid soapbox mentality. It's just a wonder that some people know how much of a scam renting was back then and justify it because it's cheaper now. You could spend over a thousand dollars on WoW over the years and stop paying tomorrow and lose all that you put in.
Some folks are renters and like living their life like that. Some folks are land owners and rent as little as possible. It is more of a mentality thing than an "era" thing.
buying the games and their expansions didn't mean you owned them it just means you paid a one time fee to be granted access to the games assets in whatever interface the devs designed. If they so chose they could take it all away since you never owned anything but the plastic the disc was made of.
Yes, "buy" in the software industry means that you pay for a perpetual license to use the software. You buy a copy of "MS Office" and you're paying for a perpetual license to use and access the software unless the terms of the license agreement are violated. I didn't think we had to explain that but I hope now it's clear we can move on to the real different in payment schemes where you're renting a service and paying for a license. Is that clearer?
Now that we're clear
I don't really see what the big deal is for "renting" a service though. You pay 12-15 dollars a month and you get unlimited access. F2P games yes you can come back at any time but you chances are there is some content hidden behind a pay wall or some mechanic that is in the game in order to try to get you to buy whatever crap they are selling in the cash shop. So which one sounds more like the scam?
Consumer software in the US isn't owned. It's licensed. The difference is that one is a perpetual license with no further fees required (like buying a copy of Windows, Office, and such.).
You're point is obtuse and pedantic. Here is the plain difference. You stop paying in a sub-locked game you lose access to the software and all you've already paid into it. If I buy something in a sub-optional/free game I still get to keep using those games, items, purchases, unlocks, and so forth even after I stop paying.
That is the difference I'm talking about. One is renting access. The other is paying for a persistent license to use without further required fees.
So in non-subscription MMO you as user:
- Don't have right to sell what you paid for
- Don't have any control over software you bought - software is modified solely on decision of software provider without possilbity of user of opting-out from it
- License peroid is unknown to user
- License can be terminated at any time and for any reason by content provider
Conclsuion: You don't have any control over software you paid for or lentht of time you will be able to use it. You actually have even less rights and control than person renting land or house.
You compared this to games that are distributed on solid media (like DVD) and that are not registered to online accounts or other DRM systems - such as Pre-Steam PC games or significant portion of Consoles games distributed on DVD/Blue-ray.
In those games you as user can:
- sell your solid media (CD/DVD/Blue-Ray) which will also transfer license if license is inseparatebly tied to this media
- you can opt-out of reveiving updates that modify your software
- you can modify non-excecutable files of your software
- License peroid is not limited - as long as you posses hardware capable of running this software you can use it. Software provider can't kill your ability to do so.
Conclusion: whlle you don't own license, you have great deal control over software you paid for. So much control that it's closer to "owning it" than to renting it.
I remind that it is YOU that compared non-sub MMO to owing a land or pre-Steam non-MMO games. If you don't like this poijnted out to you then you may think about using incorrect comparisions next time.
Subscription MMOs can Survive when publishers and investors sink $100+ Million into an MMO. Its just too much dam money you will never get the investment out of an MMO unless you have a Cash shop. Once you go F2P/B2P you have to figure out what players are willing to spend endlessly on in a cash shop so they make money.
Actually... not even that seems to do it.
SWTOR, ESO and Wildstar are all in that budget range, yet staying sub only games didn't cut it for them.
Of the recent big budget games only FFXIV is still holding the sub only flag high. So yeah, you're right - if that one decides to convert then sub only games are pretty much completely done for.
FFXIV needed a cash shop to help out, so its not sub only.
Ah, good point. I didn't actually know that it had one.
And WoW has one these days too. And EvE has the whole Plex thing or whatever it's called to allow big spenders to pump more money into the game.
Yep, the classic sub model is dead alright.
FFXIV did not need a cash shop.
ARR has been performing well above SE's own expectations for it, pretty much right out of the gate, has remained highly successful since. This has been well-known for a while now... notwithstanding the claims of people who prefer to live in willful ignorance.
A long time ago, it was asked in an interview if ARR would sell in-game items. Yoshi-P's answer was that there were no plans for one, but if players showed enough interest that they would consider it.
I can't find the specific interview I'm thinking of now (it may have been during one of the early Q&As,when I think about it), but I did find another where he covers the same subject...
This is from an interview in March, 2014...
"Famitsu then asks Yoshida whether, if there’s demand from players to sell them items [in Final Fantasy XIV], he would do it.
“If it won’t have an effect on the game’s balance, and the demand is there, and we can deliver such items, then sure, I believe we’d sell them,” answers Yoshida. When asked about selling items that could change a character’s appearance, Yoshida also says that he believes that would be fine to sell.
Famitsu concludes the F2P talk by asking when Yoshida made up his mind on the subject of selling purchasable items.
“The demand from players [for them] are really high…” he replies.
“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”"
So there you have it... From the Producer/Director himself... If the demand was there, and it was feasible, that yes, they would sell in-game items, as there was a high demand for them by the players.
At no point did he ever state that it was SE's intention to do it themselves. In fact, even when they announced the beginning of in-game sales, he put a lot of emphasis on "no pay to win". So he's clearly aware of what the implications are of a cash shop, and is wary of overstepping that line.
And really, if you're running a business where you're already getting money for your product, and people are asking you for a way to allow them to spend more... are you going to turn them down?
Now, I know there are people in this thread who will say "You really believe SE wasn't planning on doing that anyway? Dur hur?". My answer to that is, I don't know. I don't work for SE, and I've never been in on those discussions. What I do know is that - as he's done with many other aspects of the game - Yoshi-P made a statement about the game, and his intentions for it... and then later followed through. What I do know is, that I'm going to take the word of the guy putting in the hours to develop the game, over the uninformed cynicism of someone on a message forum.
If there'd been a major backlash, or a high amount of resistance to the idea of selling in-game items, I doubt we'd even be discussing it right now, because it likely wouldn't exist. Remember, SE is keen on not pissing off their players this time around.
If you ever paid twelve dollars an *hour* for gaming, that fifteen bucks a month still feels like a bargain.
I can understand the younger kids not seeing it as such.
Different eras entirely.
It's not spending $15 or more a month that doesn't agree with me. It's renting access for $15 a month that doesn't agree with me. Before people spend $12 an hour on NWN or Prodigy they just bought their games and the DLC / expansions. It is a different era I'm thinking back to. The one before we got conned into renting online time for $12 an hour.
I can understand the whole kid soapbox mentality. It's just a wonder that some people know how much of a scam renting was back then and justify it because it's cheaper now. You could spend over a thousand dollars on WoW over the years and stop paying tomorrow and lose all that you put in.
Some folks are renters and like living their life like that. Some folks are land owners and rent as little as possible. It is more of a mentality thing than an "era" thing.
buying the games and their expansions didn't mean you owned them it just means you paid a one time fee to be granted access to the games assets in whatever interface the devs designed. If they so chose they could take it all away since you never owned anything but the plastic the disc was made of.
Yes, "buy" in the software industry means that you pay for a perpetual license to use the software. You buy a copy of "MS Office" and you're paying for a perpetual license to use and access the software unless the terms of the license agreement are violated. I didn't think we had to explain that but I hope now it's clear we can move on to the real different in payment schemes where you're renting a service and paying for a license. Is that clearer?
Now that we're clear
I don't really see what the big deal is for "renting" a service though. You pay 12-15 dollars a month and you get unlimited access. F2P games yes you can come back at any time but you chances are there is some content hidden behind a pay wall or some mechanic that is in the game in order to try to get you to buy whatever crap they are selling in the cash shop. So which one sounds more like the scam?
Chances are the sub-locked game will have cash shop items or dlc/xpacs hidden behind a paywall that you have no choice in buying (eg: latest WoW expansion) or you won't be able to keep up. Having content locked behind a paywall isn't a feature of any one pay model. It's a feature of every pay model.
Well at least we agree on that feature of every pay model but F2P will always take it a step further and usually lock something behind a pay wall that you don't necessarily need to play but you will fall so far behind if you don't get it that you will be gimping yourself by not opening up your wallet.
I generally don't hang around MMO's that are F2P because I don't like the tactics they employ to try to get my money. If a sub game has a cash shop that employs the same tactics then I kiss it goodbye as well. Games with non-intrusive cash shops I don't care about(vanity items only)
Subscription MMOs can Survive when publishers and investors sink $100+ Million into an MMO. Its just too much dam money you will never get the investment out of an MMO unless you have a Cash shop. Once you go F2P/B2P you have to figure out what players are willing to spend endlessly on in a cash shop so they make money.
Actually... not even that seems to do it.
SWTOR, ESO and Wildstar are all in that budget range, yet staying sub only games didn't cut it for them.
Of the recent big budget games only FFXIV is still holding the sub only flag high. So yeah, you're right - if that one decides to convert then sub only games are pretty much completely done for.
FFXIV needed a cash shop to help out, so its not sub only.
Ah, good point. I didn't actually know that it had one.
And WoW has one these days too. And EvE has the whole Plex thing or whatever it's called to allow big spenders to pump more money into the game.
Yep, the classic sub model is dead alright.
FFXIV did not need a cash shop.
ARR has been performing well above SE's own expectations for it, pretty much right out of the gate, has remained highly successful since. This has been well-known for a while now... notwithstanding the claims of people who prefer to live in willful ignorance.
A long time ago, it was asked in an interview if ARR would sell in-game items. Yoshi-P's answer was that there were no plans for one, but if players showed enough interest that they would consider it.
I can't find the specific interview I'm thinking of now (it may have been during one of the early Q&As,when I think about it), but I did find another where he covers the same subject...
This is from an interview in March, 2014...
"Famitsu then asks Yoshida whether, if there’s demand from players to sell them items [in Final Fantasy XIV], he would do it.
“If it won’t have an effect on the game’s balance, and the demand is there, and we can deliver such items, then sure, I believe we’d sell them,” answers Yoshida. When asked about selling items that could change a character’s appearance, Yoshida also says that he believes that would be fine to sell.
Famitsu concludes the F2P talk by asking when Yoshida made up his mind on the subject of selling purchasable items.
“The demand from players [for them] are really high…” he replies.
“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”"
So there you have it... From the Producer/Director himself... If the demand was there, and it was feasible, that yes, they would sell in-game items, as there was a high demand for them by the players.
At no point did he ever state that it was SE's intention to do it themselves. In fact, even when they announced the beginning of in-game sales, he put a lot of emphasis on "no pay to win". So he's clearly aware of what the implications are of a cash shop, and is wary of overstepping that line.
And really, if you're running a business where you're already getting money for your product, and people are asking you for a way to allow them to spend more... are you going to turn them down?
Now, I know there are people in this thread who will say "You really believe SE wasn't planning on doing that anyway? Dur hur?". My answer to that is, I don't know. I don't work for SE, and I've never been in on those discussions. What I do know is that - as he's done with many other aspects of the game - Yoshi-P made a statement about the game, and his intentions for it... and then later followed through. What I do know is, that I'm going to take the word of the guy putting in the hours to develop the game, over the uninformed cynicism of someone on a message forum.
If there'd been a major backlash, or a high amount of resistance to the idea of selling in-game items, I doubt we'd even be discussing it right now, because it likely wouldn't exist. Remember, SE is keen on not pissing off their players this time around.
Subscription MMOs can Survive when publishers and investors sink $100+ Million into an MMO. Its just too much dam money you will never get the investment out of an MMO unless you have a Cash shop. Once you go F2P/B2P you have to figure out what players are willing to spend endlessly on in a cash shop so they make money.
Actually... not even that seems to do it.
SWTOR, ESO and Wildstar are all in that budget range, yet staying sub only games didn't cut it for them.
Of the recent big budget games only FFXIV is still holding the sub only flag high. So yeah, you're right - if that one decides to convert then sub only games are pretty much completely done for.
FFXIV needed a cash shop to help out, so its not sub only.
Ah, good point. I didn't actually know that it had one.
And WoW has one these days too. And EvE has the whole Plex thing or whatever it's called to allow big spenders to pump more money into the game.
Yep, the classic sub model is dead alright.
FFXIV did not need a cash shop.
ARR has been performing well above SE's own expectations for it, pretty much right out of the gate, has remained highly successful since. This has been well-known for a while now... notwithstanding the claims of people who prefer to live in willful ignorance.
A long time ago, it was asked in an interview if ARR would sell in-game items. Yoshi-P's answer was that there were no plans for one, but if players showed enough interest that they would consider it.
I can't find the specific interview I'm thinking of now (it may have been during one of the early Q&As,when I think about it), but I did find another where he covers the same subject...
This is from an interview in March, 2014...
"Famitsu then asks Yoshida whether, if there’s demand from players to sell them items [in Final Fantasy XIV], he would do it.
“If it won’t have an effect on the game’s balance, and the demand is there, and we can deliver such items, then sure, I believe we’d sell them,” answers Yoshida. When asked about selling items that could change a character’s appearance, Yoshida also says that he believes that would be fine to sell.
Famitsu concludes the F2P talk by asking when Yoshida made up his mind on the subject of selling purchasable items.
“The demand from players [for them] are really high…” he replies.
“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”"
So there you have it... From the Producer/Director himself... If the demand was there, and it was feasible, that yes, they would sell in-game items, as there was a high demand for them by the players.
At no point did he ever state that it was SE's intention to do it themselves. In fact, even when they announced the beginning of in-game sales, he put a lot of emphasis on "no pay to win". So he's clearly aware of what the implications are of a cash shop, and is wary of overstepping that line.
And really, if you're running a business where you're already getting money for your product, and people are asking you for a way to allow them to spend more... are you going to turn them down?
Now, I know there are people in this thread who will say "You really believe SE wasn't planning on doing that anyway? Dur hur?". My answer to that is, I don't know. I don't work for SE, and I've never been in on those discussions. What I do know is that - as he's done with many other aspects of the game - Yoshi-P made a statement about the game, and his intentions for it... and then later followed through. What I do know is, that I'm going to take the word of the guy putting in the hours to develop the game, over the uninformed cynicism of someone on a message forum.
If there'd been a major backlash, or a high amount of resistance to the idea of selling in-game items, I doubt we'd even be discussing it right now, because it likely wouldn't exist. Remember, SE is keen on not pissing off their players this time around.
FFXIV needed a cash shop like any company working in a capitalistic world needs to make more money. Of course it's nice if the players are receptible to the idea too. Malabooga just tries to act like giving up on 100% free money by staying P2P only was ever a real option or somehow an argument against FFXIV. Maybe he turns down $1000 checks on a daily basis in his personal life "unless he was in trouble", I don't know.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Subscription MMOs can Survive when publishers and investors sink $100+ Million into an MMO. Its just too much dam money you will never get the investment out of an MMO unless you have a Cash shop. Once you go F2P/B2P you have to figure out what players are willing to spend endlessly on in a cash shop so they make money.
Actually... not even that seems to do it.
SWTOR, ESO and Wildstar are all in that budget range, yet staying sub only games didn't cut it for them.
Of the recent big budget games only FFXIV is still holding the sub only flag high. So yeah, you're right - if that one decides to convert then sub only games are pretty much completely done for.
FFXIV needed a cash shop to help out, so its not sub only.
Ah, good point. I didn't actually know that it had one.
And WoW has one these days too. And EvE has the whole Plex thing or whatever it's called to allow big spenders to pump more money into the game.
Yep, the classic sub model is dead alright.
FFXIV did not need a cash shop.
ARR has been performing well above SE's own expectations for it, pretty much right out of the gate, has remained highly successful since. This has been well-known for a while now... notwithstanding the claims of people who prefer to live in willful ignorance.
A long time ago, it was asked in an interview if ARR would sell in-game items. Yoshi-P's answer was that there were no plans for one, but if players showed enough interest that they would consider it.
I can't find the specific interview I'm thinking of now (it may have been during one of the early Q&As,when I think about it), but I did find another where he covers the same subject...
This is from an interview in March, 2014...
"Famitsu then asks Yoshida whether, if there’s demand from players to sell them items [in Final Fantasy XIV], he would do it.
“If it won’t have an effect on the game’s balance, and the demand is there, and we can deliver such items, then sure, I believe we’d sell them,” answers Yoshida. When asked about selling items that could change a character’s appearance, Yoshida also says that he believes that would be fine to sell.
Famitsu concludes the F2P talk by asking when Yoshida made up his mind on the subject of selling purchasable items.
“The demand from players [for them] are really high…” he replies.
“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”"
So there you have it... From the Producer/Director himself... If the demand was there, and it was feasible, that yes, they would sell in-game items, as there was a high demand for them by the players.
At no point did he ever state that it was SE's intention to do it themselves. In fact, even when they announced the beginning of in-game sales, he put a lot of emphasis on "no pay to win". So he's clearly aware of what the implications are of a cash shop, and is wary of overstepping that line.
And really, if you're running a business where you're already getting money for your product, and people are asking you for a way to allow them to spend more... are you going to turn them down?
Now, I know there are people in this thread who will say "You really believe SE wasn't planning on doing that anyway? Dur hur?". My answer to that is, I don't know. I don't work for SE, and I've never been in on those discussions. What I do know is that - as he's done with many other aspects of the game - Yoshi-P made a statement about the game, and his intentions for it... and then later followed through. What I do know is, that I'm going to take the word of the guy putting in the hours to develop the game, over the uninformed cynicism of someone on a message forum.
If there'd been a major backlash, or a high amount of resistance to the idea of selling in-game items, I doubt we'd even be discussing it right now, because it likely wouldn't exist. Remember, SE is keen on not pissing off their players this time around.
FFXIV needed a cash shop like any company working in a capitalistic world needs to make more money. Of course it's nice if the players are receptible to the idea too. Malabooga just tries to act like giving up on 100% free money by staying P2P only was ever a real option or somehow an argument against FFXIV. Maybe he turns down $1000 checks on a daily basis in his personal life "unless he was in trouble", I don't know.
Yes, because without cash shop they would have to shut down the game.
FFXIV needed a cash shop like any company working in a capitalistic world needs to make more money. Of course it's nice if the players are receptible to the idea too. Malabooga just tries to act like giving up on 100% free money by staying P2P only was ever a real option or somehow an argument against FFXIV. Maybe he turns down $1000 checks on a daily basis in his personal life "unless he was in trouble", I don't know.
Yes, because without cash shop they would have to shut down the game.
You see, it goes both way.
It doesn't go both ways. Just because a capitalistic company wants to make more money doesn't automatically mean they are going to cease providing a service if they cannot make more money out of it nor that they are in trouble. Cash shop is free money; taking it is a no-brainer regardless of if your service's future depends on it or not. The only fact here is SE can make more money without repercussions and as they work in a capitalistic world, they will take it. There is no other cause-effect relationship you could in any way prove to be true no matter how desperately you want to claim it. SE needs more money from cash shop because companies always need more money.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Wildstar is worth the sub. The dungeons are so freaking fun I can just sit and farm them on non-raid nights. Ive played and paid since release (because you can play for free if you have time to farm, but I have a job instead), and I'm still on it every night, pushing the gold challenges and helping guildies with veteran modes. Would pay forever, but I suspect it will F2P soon as its too hard for some people, and the target audience is small.
FFXIV needed a cash shop like any company working in a capitalistic world needs to make more money. Of course it's nice if the players are receptible to the idea too. Malabooga just tries to act like giving up on 100% free money by staying P2P only was ever a real option or somehow an argument against FFXIV. Maybe he turns down $1000 checks on a daily basis in his personal life "unless he was in trouble", I don't know.
Yes, because without cash shop they would have to shut down the game.
You see, it goes both way.
It doesn't go both ways. Just because a capitalistic company wants to make more money doesn't automatically mean they are going to cease providing a service if they cannot make more money out of it nor that they are in trouble. Cash shop is free money; taking it is a no-brainer regardless of if your service's future depends on it or not. The only fact here is SE can make more money without repercussions and as they work in a capitalistic world, they will take it. There is no other cause-effect relationship you could in any way prove to be true no matter how desperately you want to claim it. SE needs more money from cash shop because companies always need more money.
When you have huge debt to pay you will have to repay it. Not enough people paid sub (so game didnt merit sub) so they put in cash shop to "help out".
Now, post some official numbers to prove otherwise.
FFXIV needed a cash shop like any company working in a capitalistic world needs to make more money. Of course it's nice if the players are receptible to the idea too. Malabooga just tries to act like giving up on 100% free money by staying P2P only was ever a real option or somehow an argument against FFXIV. Maybe he turns down $1000 checks on a daily basis in his personal life "unless he was in trouble", I don't know.
Yes, because without cash shop they would have to shut down the game.
You see, it goes both way.
It doesn't go both ways. Just because a capitalistic company wants to make more money doesn't automatically mean they are going to cease providing a service if they cannot make more money out of it nor that they are in trouble. Cash shop is free money; taking it is a no-brainer regardless of if your service's future depends on it or not. The only fact here is SE can make more money without repercussions and as they work in a capitalistic world, they will take it. There is no other cause-effect relationship you could in any way prove to be true no matter how desperately you want to claim it. SE needs more money from cash shop because companies always need more money.
When you have huge debt to pay you will have to repay it. Not enough people paid sub (so game didnt merit sub) so they put in cash shop to "help out".
Now, post some official numbers to prove otherwise.
The only undeniable fact here is that both successful and troubled companies need to make as much money they can, at all times. As such it is up to you to prove that SE, a capitalistic company working in a capitalistic environment, is making as much money as they can because they or the game is in financial trouble and not because this is what all capitalistic companies do at all times. If SE can make more money with FFXIV they will regardless of their financial situation. This is a fact of capitalism. Therefore until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship between "FFXIV not making enough to support the game" and "SE implementing a cash shop". The burden of proof is on you, Malabooga.
It is as simple as that.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
FFXIV needed a cash shop like any company working in a capitalistic world needs to make more money. Of course it's nice if the players are receptible to the idea too. Malabooga just tries to act like giving up on 100% free money by staying P2P only was ever a real option or somehow an argument against FFXIV. Maybe he turns down $1000 checks on a daily basis in his personal life "unless he was in trouble", I don't know.
Yes, because without cash shop they would have to shut down the game.
You see, it goes both way.
It doesn't go both ways. Just because a capitalistic company wants to make more money doesn't automatically mean they are going to cease providing a service if they cannot make more money out of it nor that they are in trouble. Cash shop is free money; taking it is a no-brainer regardless of if your service's future depends on it or not. The only fact here is SE can make more money without repercussions and as they work in a capitalistic world, they will take it. There is no other cause-effect relationship you could in any way prove to be true no matter how desperately you want to claim it. SE needs more money from cash shop because companies always need more money.
When you have huge debt to pay you will have to repay it. Not enough people paid sub (so game didnt merit sub) so they put in cash shop to "help out".
Now, post some official numbers to prove otherwise.
The only undeniable fact here is that both successful and troubled companies need to make as much money they can, at all times. As such it is up to you to prove that SE, a capitalistic company working in a capitalistic environment, is making as much money as they can because they or the game is in financial trouble and not because this is what all capitalistic companies do at all times. If SE can make more money with FFXIV they will regardless of their financial situation. This is a fact of capitalism. Therefore until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship between "FFXIV not making enough to support the game" and "SE implementing a cash shop". The burden of proof is on you, Malabooga.
It is as simple as that.
rofl
NO, it s NOT on me, YOU want to use FFXIV as example of game that merits a sub YOU have to prove that they added cash shop just because of greed.
The games that we KNOW merit a sub are WoW and EvE (and some smaller games).
For FFXIV we have some random forum posters claiming so without anything to back it up.
Originally posted by Foomerang Subscription used to mean no cash shop. Now it means less intrusive cash shop. For me is still worth it. I've played b2p and f2p MMOs and the cash shop influence is too distracting for my tatse.
I tend to agree with you here. I am not overly concerned with cash shops, I would however pay (a subscription) in order for a game to:
1. Have a robust in game support staff (GM's). I feel that too many games allow players to get away with far too much in the way of botting, exploiting, and being otherwise just bad community members. I would pay a subscription if a game actually did monitor these things and had a better response time in dealing with them. Having said that, I have yet to see a subscription game do any better than free to play games along these lines, so that argument is pretty much moot.
2. Free content updates. Games should release with enough content to keep an active guild busy for 12 months. Not an uber pro gamer guild, keeping up with those guys is near impossible. But being able to keep your middle of the road active player that has a day job busy for a year is not much to ask. When new content is released, it should be free in a subscription model. However, again going to argue against myself here, I have not seen a subscription model that does this any better than most free to play games.
There is more but these are two of my biggest bitches against pay to play. These games really do not do anything better than free to play games, I still have to deal with cheaters, I still have to buy expansions so why would I pay a subscription fee? I won't, it's that simple.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
FFXIV needed a cash shop like any company working in a capitalistic world needs to make more money. Of course it's nice if the players are receptible to the idea too. Malabooga just tries to act like giving up on 100% free money by staying P2P only was ever a real option or somehow an argument against FFXIV. Maybe he turns down $1000 checks on a daily basis in his personal life "unless he was in trouble", I don't know.
Yes, because without cash shop they would have to shut down the game.
You see, it goes both way.
It doesn't go both ways. Just because a capitalistic company wants to make more money doesn't automatically mean they are going to cease providing a service if they cannot make more money out of it nor that they are in trouble. Cash shop is free money; taking it is a no-brainer regardless of if your service's future depends on it or not. The only fact here is SE can make more money without repercussions and as they work in a capitalistic world, they will take it. There is no other cause-effect relationship you could in any way prove to be true no matter how desperately you want to claim it. SE needs more money from cash shop because companies always need more money.
When you have huge debt to pay you will have to repay it. Not enough people paid sub (so game didnt merit sub) so they put in cash shop to "help out".
Now, post some official numbers to prove otherwise.
The only undeniable fact here is that both successful and troubled companies need to make as much money they can, at all times. As such it is up to you to prove that SE, a capitalistic company working in a capitalistic environment, is making as much money as they can because they or the game is in financial trouble and not because this is what all capitalistic companies do at all times. If SE can make more money with FFXIV they will regardless of their financial situation. This is a fact of capitalism. Therefore until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship between "FFXIV not making enough to support the game" and "SE implementing a cash shop". The burden of proof is on you, Malabooga.
It is as simple as that.
rofl
NO, it s NOT on me, YOU want to use FFXIV as example of game that merits a sub YOU have to prove that they added cash shop just because of greed.
The games that we KNOW merit a sub are WoW and EvE (and some smaller games).
For FFXIV we have some random forum posters claiming so without anything to back it up.
LMFAO this is pure gold. Making bold claims and telling someone else they have to prove it. That's a first. Keep it up, definitely enjoying the pure ignorance. LMFAO.
NO, it s NOT on me, YOU want to use FFXIV as example of game that merits a sub YOU have to prove that they added cash shop just because of greed.
The games that we KNOW merit a sub are WoW and EvE (and some smaller games).
For FFXIV we have some random forum posters claiming so without anything to back it up.
I am simply saying cash shop does not equal financial trouble. I don't have to prove this: everybody knows this. It's like having to prove water is wet. You on the other hand say cash shop does equal financial trouble in this case. It's your argument to prove bud. Until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship.
Why are you so completely incapable of understanding this?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
NO, it s NOT on me, YOU want to use FFXIV as example of game that merits a sub YOU have to prove that they added cash shop just because of greed.
The games that we KNOW merit a sub are WoW and EvE (and some smaller games).
For FFXIV we have some random forum posters claiming so without anything to back it up.
I am simply saying cash shop does not equal financial trouble. I don't have to prove this: everybody knows this. It's like having to prove water is wet. You on the other hand say cash shop does equal financial trouble in this case. It's your argument to prove bud. Until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship.
Why are you so completely incapable of understanding this?
Yeah, random forum poster makes baseless claims and then ask others to prove otherwise. Pure gold.
Dude. ANYONE can make any number of baseless claims, but only handful of specific people will, again, baslessly support those claims.
Until you present official numbers that backs up YOUR claims, further debate is just for amusement of the audience.
Unfortunately you are completely incapable of understanding how stuff works.
NO, it s NOT on me, YOU want to use FFXIV as example of game that merits a sub YOU have to prove that they added cash shop just because of greed.
The games that we KNOW merit a sub are WoW and EvE (and some smaller games).
For FFXIV we have some random forum posters claiming so without anything to back it up.
I am simply saying cash shop does not equal financial trouble. I don't have to prove this: everybody knows this. It's like having to prove water is wet. You on the other hand say cash shop does equal financial trouble in this case. It's your argument to prove bud. Until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship.
Why are you so completely incapable of understanding this?
Yeah, random forum poster makes baseless claims and then ask others to prove otherwise. Pure gold.
Dude. ANYONE can make any number of baseless claims, but only handful of specific people will, again, baslessly support those claims.
Until you present official numbers that backs up YOUR claims, further debate is just for amusement of the audience.
Unfortunately you are completely incapable of understanding how stuff works.
Uh...I'm actually pretty confident that you're the one that's clueless and making baseless claims.
Look in the mirror, you're actually talking about yourself with your comments. Pretty amusing indeed.
NO, it s NOT on me, YOU want to use FFXIV as example of game that merits a sub YOU have to prove that they added cash shop just because of greed.
The games that we KNOW merit a sub are WoW and EvE (and some smaller games).
For FFXIV we have some random forum posters claiming so without anything to back it up.
I am simply saying cash shop does not equal financial trouble. I don't have to prove this: everybody knows this. It's like having to prove water is wet. You on the other hand say cash shop does equal financial trouble in this case. It's your argument to prove bud. Until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship.
Why are you so completely incapable of understanding this?
Yeah, random forum poster makes baseless claims and then ask others to prove otherwise. Pure gold.
Dude. ANYONE can make any number of baseless claims, but only handful of specific people will, again, baslessly support those claims.
Until you present official numbers that backs up YOUR claims, further debate is just for amusement of the audience.
Unfortunately you are completely incapable of understanding how stuff works.
So you seriously want me to prove water is wet?
You want me to prove capitalism works the way it does?
Nah, bud. Everyone of us here except you has figured out these basic concepts that you call "baseless claims". Maybe someday you will too.
"You want to claim water is wet? And even more preposterous, that earth orbits the sun? Those are baseless claims! Where's the official numbers? Where's the data?" - Malabooga
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Haven't read any of the prior responses. Too many to read but I'm sure its been said before. $15.00 = .50 per day for hours of entertainment. You probably throw away more money than that every day. One two topping pizza cost more and lord knows most of you could do without another pizza ... but you don't and you pay for it willingly. Need i say more?
Comments
By your definition what does that mean?
Okay, seriously, why do people insist that it's because it's a FF game that FFXIV:ARR is alive and kicking with a sub? Do you people really not understand that:
1) FFXIV 1.0 flopped so hard they had to remake it and they basically tried to milked their IP and that failed?
2) Every Final Fantasy is different so new fans who didn't stick with 1.0 has nostalgia but don't have characters or worlds to hold onto in the main storyline besides the new iteration of summons and Cid?
3) That the Final Fantasy fanbase is heavily divided and majority hate the concept on principle of an MMO being a main number?
4) That FFXI already existed and quite a lot of fans that tried ARR ditched it for being so different from XI?
Final Fantasy is one of those brands that can be used to bring in fans and new players to check it out, but unless the game is solid enough, they are not going to stick around.
Oh, I feel so dumb. That didn't even occur to me. I temporarily disabled McAfee (hate McAfee but it's provided for free by our ISP and I'm not working so can't buy another at the moment) at your suggestion. Thank you.
buying the games and their expansions didn't mean you owned them it just means you paid a one time fee to be granted access to the games assets in whatever interface the devs designed. If they so chose they could take it all away since you never owned anything but the plastic the disc was made of.
All money you spent on MMO is renting. If you buy game code, DLC or item from cash shop - you are renting it.
You don't own any stuff in F2P (or freemium or "B2P" MMO) game. Game can be changed at any time to make your purchase less worthy/ worthless or it can shut down and you can lose it "tommorow" as well.
All MMO gaming is renting. Microtransactions or subscriptions are simply an renting using diffrent pay types, but both are renting.
No idea why you compare this to owning an data disc of pre-Steam games. It has nothing in common.
Same goes for comparing buying an virtual mount to owing a land. Actually this virtual mount is renting just like renting a land or house. Nothing in common with owing a land/house.
Now that we're clear
I don't really see what the big deal is for "renting" a service though. You pay 12-15 dollars a month and you get unlimited access. F2P games yes you can come back at any time but you chances are there is some content hidden behind a pay wall or some mechanic that is in the game in order to try to get you to buy whatever crap they are selling in the cash shop. So which one sounds more like the scam?
So in non-subscription MMO you as user:
- Don't have right to sell what you paid for
- Don't have any control over software you bought - software is modified solely on decision of software provider without possilbity of user of opting-out from it
- License peroid is unknown to user
- License can be terminated at any time and for any reason by content provider
Conclsuion: You don't have any control over software you paid for or lentht of time you will be able to use it. You actually have even less rights and control than person renting land or house.
You compared this to games that are distributed on solid media (like DVD) and that are not registered to online accounts or other DRM systems - such as Pre-Steam PC games or significant portion of Consoles games distributed on DVD/Blue-ray.
In those games you as user can:
- sell your solid media (CD/DVD/Blue-Ray) which will also transfer license if license is inseparatebly tied to this media
- you can opt-out of reveiving updates that modify your software
- you can modify non-excecutable files of your software
- License peroid is not limited - as long as you posses hardware capable of running this software you can use it. Software provider can't kill your ability to do so.
Conclusion: whlle you don't own license, you have great deal control over software you paid for. So much control that it's closer to "owning it" than to renting it.
I remind that it is YOU that compared non-sub MMO to owing a land or pre-Steam non-MMO games. If you don't like this poijnted out to you then you may think about using incorrect comparisions next time.
FFXIV did not need a cash shop.
ARR has been performing well above SE's own expectations for it, pretty much right out of the gate, has remained highly successful since. This has been well-known for a while now... notwithstanding the claims of people who prefer to live in willful ignorance.
A long time ago, it was asked in an interview if ARR would sell in-game items. Yoshi-P's answer was that there were no plans for one, but if players showed enough interest that they would consider it.
I can't find the specific interview I'm thinking of now (it may have been during one of the early Q&As,when I think about it), but I did find another where he covers the same subject...
This is from an interview in March, 2014...
"Famitsu then asks Yoshida whether, if there’s demand from players to sell them items [in Final Fantasy XIV], he would do it.
“If it won’t have an effect on the game’s balance, and the demand is there, and we can deliver such items, then sure, I believe we’d sell them,” answers Yoshida. When asked about selling items that could change a character’s appearance, Yoshida also says that he believes that would be fine to sell.
Famitsu concludes the F2P talk by asking when Yoshida made up his mind on the subject of selling purchasable items.
“The demand from players [for them] are really high…” he replies.
“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”"
Original article here.
So there you have it... From the Producer/Director himself... If the demand was there, and it was feasible, that yes, they would sell in-game items, as there was a high demand for them by the players.
At no point did he ever state that it was SE's intention to do it themselves. In fact, even when they announced the beginning of in-game sales, he put a lot of emphasis on "no pay to win". So he's clearly aware of what the implications are of a cash shop, and is wary of overstepping that line.
And really, if you're running a business where you're already getting money for your product, and people are asking you for a way to allow them to spend more... are you going to turn them down?
Now, I know there are people in this thread who will say "You really believe SE wasn't planning on doing that anyway? Dur hur?". My answer to that is, I don't know. I don't work for SE, and I've never been in on those discussions. What I do know is that - as he's done with many other aspects of the game - Yoshi-P made a statement about the game, and his intentions for it... and then later followed through. What I do know is, that I'm going to take the word of the guy putting in the hours to develop the game, over the uninformed cynicism of someone on a message forum.
If there'd been a major backlash, or a high amount of resistance to the idea of selling in-game items, I doubt we'd even be discussing it right now, because it likely wouldn't exist. Remember, SE is keen on not pissing off their players this time around.
Well at least we agree on that feature of every pay model but F2P will always take it a step further and usually lock something behind a pay wall that you don't necessarily need to play but you will fall so far behind if you don't get it that you will be gimping yourself by not opening up your wallet.
I generally don't hang around MMO's that are F2P because I don't like the tactics they employ to try to get my money. If a sub game has a cash shop that employs the same tactics then I kiss it goodbye as well. Games with non-intrusive cash shops I don't care about(vanity items only)
Official numbers or do not apply.
FFXIV needed a cash shop like any company working in a capitalistic world needs to make more money. Of course it's nice if the players are receptible to the idea too. Malabooga just tries to act like giving up on 100% free money by staying P2P only was ever a real option or somehow an argument against FFXIV. Maybe he turns down $1000 checks on a daily basis in his personal life "unless he was in trouble", I don't know.
Yes, because without cash shop they would have to shut down the game.
You see, it goes both way.
It doesn't go both ways. Just because a capitalistic company wants to make more money doesn't automatically mean they are going to cease providing a service if they cannot make more money out of it nor that they are in trouble. Cash shop is free money; taking it is a no-brainer regardless of if your service's future depends on it or not. The only fact here is SE can make more money without repercussions and as they work in a capitalistic world, they will take it. There is no other cause-effect relationship you could in any way prove to be true no matter how desperately you want to claim it. SE needs more money from cash shop because companies always need more money.
When you have huge debt to pay you will have to repay it. Not enough people paid sub (so game didnt merit sub) so they put in cash shop to "help out".
Now, post some official numbers to prove otherwise.
The only undeniable fact here is that both successful and troubled companies need to make as much money they can, at all times. As such it is up to you to prove that SE, a capitalistic company working in a capitalistic environment, is making as much money as they can because they or the game is in financial trouble and not because this is what all capitalistic companies do at all times. If SE can make more money with FFXIV they will regardless of their financial situation. This is a fact of capitalism. Therefore until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship between "FFXIV not making enough to support the game" and "SE implementing a cash shop". The burden of proof is on you, Malabooga.
It is as simple as that.
rofl
NO, it s NOT on me, YOU want to use FFXIV as example of game that merits a sub YOU have to prove that they added cash shop just because of greed.
The games that we KNOW merit a sub are WoW and EvE (and some smaller games).
For FFXIV we have some random forum posters claiming so without anything to back it up.
I tend to agree with you here. I am not overly concerned with cash shops, I would however pay (a subscription) in order for a game to:
1. Have a robust in game support staff (GM's). I feel that too many games allow players to get away with far too much in the way of botting, exploiting, and being otherwise just bad community members. I would pay a subscription if a game actually did monitor these things and had a better response time in dealing with them. Having said that, I have yet to see a subscription game do any better than free to play games along these lines, so that argument is pretty much moot.
2. Free content updates. Games should release with enough content to keep an active guild busy for 12 months. Not an uber pro gamer guild, keeping up with those guys is near impossible. But being able to keep your middle of the road active player that has a day job busy for a year is not much to ask. When new content is released, it should be free in a subscription model. However, again going to argue against myself here, I have not seen a subscription model that does this any better than most free to play games.
There is more but these are two of my biggest bitches against pay to play. These games really do not do anything better than free to play games, I still have to deal with cheaters, I still have to buy expansions so why would I pay a subscription fee? I won't, it's that simple.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
LMFAO this is pure gold. Making bold claims and telling someone else they have to prove it. That's a first. Keep it up, definitely enjoying the pure ignorance. LMFAO.
Can any game released merit a subscription?
Not unless the price of sub was $2 with game card payment plan, no cash shop, and constant content updates FOR ROLE PLAYERS. So basically, no.
I am simply saying cash shop does not equal financial trouble. I don't have to prove this: everybody knows this. It's like having to prove water is wet. You on the other hand say cash shop does equal financial trouble in this case. It's your argument to prove bud. Until you prove it there is simply no cause-effect relationship.
Why are you so completely incapable of understanding this?
Yeah, random forum poster makes baseless claims and then ask others to prove otherwise. Pure gold.
Dude. ANYONE can make any number of baseless claims, but only handful of specific people will, again, baslessly support those claims.
Until you present official numbers that backs up YOUR claims, further debate is just for amusement of the audience.
Unfortunately you are completely incapable of understanding how stuff works.
Uh...I'm actually pretty confident that you're the one that's clueless and making baseless claims.
Look in the mirror, you're actually talking about yourself with your comments. Pretty amusing indeed.
So you seriously want me to prove water is wet?
You want me to prove capitalism works the way it does?
Nah, bud. Everyone of us here except you has figured out these basic concepts that you call "baseless claims". Maybe someday you will too.
"You want to claim water is wet? And even more preposterous, that earth orbits the sun? Those are baseless claims! Where's the official numbers? Where's the data?" - Malabooga
Haven't read any of the prior responses. Too many to read but I'm sure its been said before. $15.00 = .50 per day for hours of entertainment. You probably throw away more money than that every day. One two topping pizza cost more and lord knows most of you could do without another pizza ... but you don't and you pay for it willingly. Need i say more?