Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
Yes, facts are nice. Funny that you think euro servers amount to basic running of MMO while mentioning FFXI in the same paragraph. FFXI servers were located only in Japan, a little fact you seem to have forgotten. If a cash shop in XI gave us euro servers back in 2004 people would probably have more than obliged. But SE was stupid enough to never even offer players such an option.
More facts: FFXI sold many in-game items and services for extra money in its lifespan, the only difference being there was no unified centre of purchases for them. Another fact: FFXI lacked several crucial services that they were not willing to provide for the sub fee yet didn't make them available in the cash shop either, including name and appearance changes. Yet some other services they were more than willing to charge extra for in a cash shop like fashion, including server change and even additional characters.
FFXI offered many cash shop services without having an actual cash shop hub (including more inventory space, gear with teleport bonuses, more characters among others). FFXI also lacked many valuable cash shop services that they could have provided for additional income and which would have had a massive demand.
For being sooo happy with P2P they sure found plenty of ways to charge extra for additional services and items (without having a concrete cash shop hub for them, which according to you is the most important thing), as well as failing to offer other basic services that would have been extremely popular.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
Yes, facts are nice. Funny that you think euro servers amount to basic running of MMO while mentioning FFXI in the same paragraph. FFXI servers were located only in Japan, a little fact you seem to have forgotten. If a cash shop in XI gave us euro servers back in 2004 people would probably have more than obliged. But SE was stupid enough to never even offer players such an option.
More facts: FFXI sold many in-game items and services for extra money in its lifespan, the only difference being there was no unified centre of purchases for them. Another fact: FFXI lacked several crucial services that they were not willing to provide for the sub fee yet didn't make them available in the cash shop either, including name and appearance changes. Yet some other services they were more than willing to charge extra for in a cash shop like fashion, including server change and even additional characters.
FFXI offered many cash shop services without having an actual cash shop hub (including more inventory space, gear with teleport bonuses, more characters among others). FFXI also lacked many valuable cash shop services that they could have provided for additional income and which would have had a massive demand.
For being sooo happy with P2P they sure found plenty of ways to charge extra for additional services and items (without having a concrete cash shop hub for them, which according to you is the most important thing), as well as failing to offer other basic services that would have been extremely popular.
Theres quite a difference between cash shop and services.
And RMT.
It doesnt really matter that FFXI serevrs were located in Japan only, at the time they didnt take more money from people, or make crap exuses like "euro servers" to shove in cash shop and RMT in their game.
Yes, SQIX has changed (probably due to financial difficulties they had) and today they are just another little greedy bunch, shoving cash shops on top of mandatory subs, and requiring full sub for game in maitenance.
So yeah, there never was a game that merited a sub, few games came/come close, Lineage 2 and EvE (just because no box price and no additional charge for expansions).
When you quadriple dip with: box+mandatory sub+addtional cost for new content aka expansion on top of sub+cash shop on top of sub. No lol
so yeah, if anyone really wants objective answer: there hasnt been one yet, theoretically there could be, but theory is theory and practice is practice, most of games reelase in couple of years theoreticall offered "sub value" but changed their tune not long after launch, be it going F2P/B2P or adding cash shops.
On a subjective level: anything can be "worth a sub"
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
Yes, facts are nice. Funny that you think euro servers amount to basic running of MMO while mentioning FFXI in the same paragraph. FFXI servers were located only in Japan, a little fact you seem to have forgotten. If a cash shop in XI gave us euro servers back in 2004 people would probably have more than obliged. But SE was stupid enough to never even offer players such an option.
More facts: FFXI sold many in-game items and services for extra money in its lifespan, the only difference being there was no unified centre of purchases for them. Another fact: FFXI lacked several crucial services that they were not willing to provide for the sub fee yet didn't make them available in the cash shop either, including name and appearance changes. Yet some other services they were more than willing to charge extra for in a cash shop like fashion, including server change and even additional characters.
FFXI offered many cash shop services without having an actual cash shop hub (including more inventory space, gear with teleport bonuses, more characters among others). FFXI also lacked many valuable cash shop services that they could have provided for additional income and which would have had a massive demand.
For being sooo happy with P2P they sure found plenty of ways to charge extra for additional services and items (without having a concrete cash shop hub for them, which according to you is the most important thing), as well as failing to offer other basic services that would have been extremely popular.
Theres quite a difference between cash shop and services.
And RMT.
It doesnt really matter that FFXI serevrs were located in Japan only, at the time they didnt take more money from people, or make crap exuses like "euro servers" to shove in cash shop and RMT in their game.
Yes, SQIX has changed (probably due to financial difficulties they had) and today they are just another little greedy bunch, shoving cash shops on top of mandatory subs, and requiring full sub for game in maitenance.
So yeah, there never was a game that merited a sub, few games came/come close, Lineage 2 and EvE (just because no box price and no additional charge for expansions).
When you quadriple dip with: box+mandatory sub+addtional cost for new content aka expansion on top of sub+cash shop on top of sub. No lol
so yeah, if anyone really wants objective answer: there hasnt been one yet, theoretically there could be, but theory is theory and practice is practice, most of games reelase in couple of years theoreticall offered "sub value" but changed their tune not long after launch, be it going F2P/B2P or adding cash shops.
On a subjective level: anything can be "worth a sub"
Unsurprisingly you have moved further and further away from facts - now that they no longer fit your argument. In fact you have done a complete 180 in a matter of just three posts. Impressive.
The Japanese always had an unfair advantage ping-wise because the servers were located only in Japan. In this context you saying "it doesn't matter" is quite comical. Back in 2003~ Western FFXI players were desperate for SE to make this so called "crap excuse" only so they could finally be on an equal ground with the rest of the playerbase. But let's keep to the facts shall we: the JP only servers mattered a whole lot and nothing was done about it ever despite a great deal of criticism and demand.
It's particularly hilarious how you say SE has become a greedy bunch, in light of the devs charging extra for having more than one character (which they do not do with FFXIV) AND actively encouraging such practices by not increasing the inventory space sufficiently (which was always a mere fraction of the current FFXIV inventory space) as well as by offering more inventory space for extra charge. All questionable practices that can put the shame the greediest of F2P companies.
"Yes, we know our players are starving for more inventory space. Fortunately we have found the perfect solution: with just $1 a month or for a one-time fee of $12,99 our players may solve their issue. This is not us being greedy by any means; you may consider it more a charity venture."
Lastly your objective answer is the opposite of "objective". Case in point: not all cash shops are created equal yet you assume they are. It's no wonder you resort to such foolishness however; your whole argument completely collapses if you include that objective quantifier.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
P2P games do experience huge drops in playerbase so my scenario is not only likely it is real - example Shadowbane, Tabula Rasa, Age of Conan, Vanguard have all experienced significant player drops as P2P games.
Also FF14 did supplement P2P model with a cash shop - so you can't count that as pure P2P success.
The fact that 100% P2P (without any cash shop) are almost non existent speaks volumes
Most if not all of those games experienced their significant drops within the release period; once the playerbases established their decline was much more temperate and controlled. More importantly the devs struggled in even getting started at providing any long-term support for said games. It also doesn't help that most of those games were seen as complete crap, which affects their success regardless of the payment model. They were flops, simple as that.
There is no such thing as "pure P2P success". Cash shop is free money to everyone. Being a "pure P2P success" would mean a company declines free money because they have "enough". That there are no P2P without cash shops does indeed speak volumes that no companies would decline from free additional revenue with no downsides. Why would anyone even assume that there exists a "pure P2P" alternative? You'd be a moron to provide a pure P2P service, since the downsides only come to play through the extent at which the devs offer cash shop services. You fail to take into account the importance of context; not all cash shops are created equal in this sense.
You are also still disagreeing with one of the most successful and competent developers in the industry by the way. You think he is speaking nonsense?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
To some there might not be a reason, need or want to ever play a game they need to have an active sub, that is fine, it is how they feel.
Myself I have played a lot of games over the years and I find i keep going back to two that are sub based. My reason is simple, there is no other game out there that offers me what these do.
I am more then happy to pay a monthly fee for a game I enjoy. So, yes. To me, both of them merit a sub.
Originally posted by Moirae Sagewisdom, I created a trial account and tried to download it twice now, it gets half way through, then tells me it can't download the files for the patches, any idea whats going on?
Okay, what device are you trying to download it on? A PC, PS3 or a PS4? If a PC, sometimes antivirus software will block downloads, so disable it until you finish download.
If you are trying to download wirelessly, you might be dropping the connection somehow. Try putting in a hard wire.
Originally posted by Cyrael The only three games that I feel release enough contents and updates to merit a description are Final Fantasy XIV, Eve Online, and Guild Wars 2. Everyone else, not even close.
Wtf are you babbling about, EQ2 trumps all three of those for content, expansions and updates. So saying none are even close is pure bullshit.
And yet noone playing. And it s F2P. And still noone playing. In fact, year or two back SOE said EQ2 had 600k accounts created in its LIFETIME (little less than 10 years)
EQ2 has a sub option as well and we are not talking about how many are playing the game, read your original post.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
Yes, facts are nice. Funny that you think euro servers amount to basic running of MMO while mentioning FFXI in the same paragraph. FFXI servers were located only in Japan, a little fact you seem to have forgotten. If a cash shop in XI gave us euro servers back in 2004 people would probably have more than obliged. But SE was stupid enough to never even offer players such an option.
More facts: FFXI sold many in-game items and services for extra money in its lifespan, the only difference being there was no unified centre of purchases for them. Another fact: FFXI lacked several crucial services that they were not willing to provide for the sub fee yet didn't make them available in the cash shop either, including name and appearance changes. Yet some other services they were more than willing to charge extra for in a cash shop like fashion, including server change and even additional characters.
FFXI offered many cash shop services without having an actual cash shop hub (including more inventory space, gear with teleport bonuses, more characters among others). FFXI also lacked many valuable cash shop services that they could have provided for additional income and which would have had a massive demand.
For being sooo happy with P2P they sure found plenty of ways to charge extra for additional services and items (without having a concrete cash shop hub for them, which according to you is the most important thing), as well as failing to offer other basic services that would have been extremely popular.
Theres quite a difference between cash shop and services.
And RMT.
It doesnt really matter that FFXI serevrs were located in Japan only, at the time they didnt take more money from people, or make crap exuses like "euro servers" to shove in cash shop and RMT in their game.
Yes, SQIX has changed (probably due to financial difficulties they had) and today they are just another little greedy bunch, shoving cash shops on top of mandatory subs, and requiring full sub for game in maitenance.
So yeah, there never was a game that merited a sub, few games came/come close, Lineage 2 and EvE (just because no box price and no additional charge for expansions).
When you quadriple dip with: box+mandatory sub+addtional cost for new content aka expansion on top of sub+cash shop on top of sub. No lol
so yeah, if anyone really wants objective answer: there hasnt been one yet, theoretically there could be, but theory is theory and practice is practice, most of games reelase in couple of years theoreticall offered "sub value" but changed their tune not long after launch, be it going F2P/B2P or adding cash shops.
On a subjective level: anything can be "worth a sub"
Unsurprisingly you have moved further and further away from facts - now that they no longer fit your argument. In fact you have done a complete 180 in a matter of just three posts. Impressive.
The Japanese always had an unfair advantage ping-wise because the servers were located only in Japan. In this context you saying "it doesn't matter" is quite comical. Back in 2003~ Western FFXI players were desperate for SE to make this so called "crap excuse" only so they could finally be on an equal ground with the rest of the playerbase. But let's keep to the facts shall we: the JP only servers mattered a whole lot and nothing was done about it ever despite a great deal of criticism and demand.
It's particularly hilarious how you say SE has become a greedy bunch, in light of the devs charging extra for having more than one character (which they do not do with FFXIV) AND actively encouraging such practices by not increasing the inventory space sufficiently (which was always a mere fraction of the current FFXIV inventory space) as well as by offering more inventory space for extra charge. All questionable practices that can put the shame the greediest of F2P companies.
"Yes, we know our players are starving for more inventory space. Fortunately we have found the perfect solution: with just $1 a month or for a one-time fee of $12,99 our players may solve their issue. This is not us being greedy by any means; you may consider it more a charity venture."
Lastly your objective answer is the opposite of "objective". Case in point: not all cash shops are created equal yet you assume they are. It's no wonder you resort to such foolishness however; your whole argument completely collapses if you include that objective quantifier.
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
Originally posted by Cyrael The only three games that I feel release enough contents and updates to merit a description are Final Fantasy XIV, Eve Online, and Guild Wars 2. Everyone else, not even close.
Wtf are you babbling about, EQ2 trumps all three of those for content, expansions and updates. So saying none are even close is pure bullshit.
And yet noone playing. And it s F2P. And still noone playing. In fact, year or two back SOE said EQ2 had 600k accounts created in its LIFETIME (little less than 10 years)
EQ2 has a sub option as well and we are not talking about how many are playing the game, read your original post.
Oh, but it is, you claim theres a game that "trumps everything out there" but that noone plays. Draw your own conclusion.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
That's just being stupid. The P2P model is used more to supplant software and content updates with a possible surplus being used for hardware. SE has had used a great deal of FFXIV's revenue to get it out of debt and only recently started making money again. Since they make more than just their MMORPG, revenue is used to fund other projects as well so FFXIV is budgeted even further.
Then of course, there's employees to pay and the software isn't cheap to make either. FFXIV has also put a ton of content into their patches so more money is going into the creation of all these new functions.
With that, things like Euro servers would probably never happen until SE is finacially stable enough that FFXIV is not a crutch they have to lean on.
Thus a cash shop to give extra money for the FFXIV team to spend money on and buy those servers. There's most likely an agreement that the cash shop money is extra FFXIV money and not SE money. Like a tip if you will. Cash shops are cheaper because SE mostly updates them with seasonal event items so the assests are already made so no money has to be spent making it again. Everything else remains products people want but don't have to be updated to get more buyers.
That's not even going into free weekends, free month after buying, and vet rewards they offer you for free. The seasonal event items are different every year and easy to get, so every player that does it don't even have to look at the cash shop for them.
You don't understand business and until you do, you need to stop talking about greed.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
That's just being stupid. The P2P model is used more to supplant software and content updates with a possible surplus being used for hardware. SE has had used a great deal of FFXIV's revenue to get it out of debt and only recently started making money again. Since they make more than just their MMORPG, revenue is used to fund other projects as well so FFXIV is budgeted even further.
Then of course, there's employees to pay and the software isn't cheap to make either. FFXIV has also put a ton of content into their patches so more money is going into the creation of all these new functions.
With that, things like Euro servers would probably never happen until SE is finacially stable enough that FFXIV is not a crutch they have to lean on.
Thus a cash shop to give extra money for the FFXIV team to spend money on and buy those servers. There's most likely an agreement that the cash shop money is extra FFXIV money and not SE money. Like a tip if you will. Cash shops are cheaper because SE mostly updates them with seasonal event items so the assests are already made so no money has to be spent making it again. Everything else remains products people want but don't have to be updated to get more buyers.
That's not even going into free weekends, free month after buying, and vet rewards they offer you for free. The seasonal event items are different every year and easy to get, so every player that does it don't even have to look at the cash shop for them.
You don't understand business and until you do, you need to stop talking about greed.
Oh, i understand the situation perfectly. Its some other people that are in denial
FFXIV is one of the reasons they got in trouble in the FIRST PLACE.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
Yes, facts are nice. Funny that you think euro servers amount to basic running of MMO while mentioning FFXI in the same paragraph. FFXI servers were located only in Japan, a little fact you seem to have forgotten. If a cash shop in XI gave us euro servers back in 2004 people would probably have more than obliged. But SE was stupid enough to never even offer players such an option.
More facts: FFXI sold many in-game items and services for extra money in its lifespan, the only difference being there was no unified centre of purchases for them. Another fact: FFXI lacked several crucial services that they were not willing to provide for the sub fee yet didn't make them available in the cash shop either, including name and appearance changes. Yet some other services they were more than willing to charge extra for in a cash shop like fashion, including server change and even additional characters.
FFXI offered many cash shop services without having an actual cash shop hub (including more inventory space, gear with teleport bonuses, more characters among others). FFXI also lacked many valuable cash shop services that they could have provided for additional income and which would have had a massive demand.
For being sooo happy with P2P they sure found plenty of ways to charge extra for additional services and items (without having a concrete cash shop hub for them, which according to you is the most important thing), as well as failing to offer other basic services that would have been extremely popular.
Theres quite a difference between cash shop and services.
And RMT.
It doesnt really matter that FFXI serevrs were located in Japan only, at the time they didnt take more money from people, or make crap exuses like "euro servers" to shove in cash shop and RMT in their game.
Yes, SQIX has changed (probably due to financial difficulties they had) and today they are just another little greedy bunch, shoving cash shops on top of mandatory subs, and requiring full sub for game in maitenance.
So yeah, there never was a game that merited a sub, few games came/come close, Lineage 2 and EvE (just because no box price and no additional charge for expansions).
When you quadriple dip with: box+mandatory sub+addtional cost for new content aka expansion on top of sub+cash shop on top of sub. No lol
so yeah, if anyone really wants objective answer: there hasnt been one yet, theoretically there could be, but theory is theory and practice is practice, most of games reelase in couple of years theoreticall offered "sub value" but changed their tune not long after launch, be it going F2P/B2P or adding cash shops.
On a subjective level: anything can be "worth a sub"
Unsurprisingly you have moved further and further away from facts - now that they no longer fit your argument. In fact you have done a complete 180 in a matter of just three posts. Impressive.
The Japanese always had an unfair advantage ping-wise because the servers were located only in Japan. In this context you saying "it doesn't matter" is quite comical. Back in 2003~ Western FFXI players were desperate for SE to make this so called "crap excuse" only so they could finally be on an equal ground with the rest of the playerbase. But let's keep to the facts shall we: the JP only servers mattered a whole lot and nothing was done about it ever despite a great deal of criticism and demand.
It's particularly hilarious how you say SE has become a greedy bunch, in light of the devs charging extra for having more than one character (which they do not do with FFXIV) AND actively encouraging such practices by not increasing the inventory space sufficiently (which was always a mere fraction of the current FFXIV inventory space) as well as by offering more inventory space for extra charge. All questionable practices that can put the shame the greediest of F2P companies.
"Yes, we know our players are starving for more inventory space. Fortunately we have found the perfect solution: with just $1 a month or for a one-time fee of $12,99 our players may solve their issue. This is not us being greedy by any means; you may consider it more a charity venture."
Lastly your objective answer is the opposite of "objective". Case in point: not all cash shops are created equal yet you assume they are. It's no wonder you resort to such foolishness however; your whole argument completely collapses if you include that objective quantifier.
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
Greed is taking more than you need for yourself. If a company is in a finacial crisis, charging more is not being greedy because that money is not going into their pocket.
Also, FFXI was released after FFX, their second most popular title to date after FFVII. FFX along with Enix merger, effectively put Square in a strong place finacially after the flop that was Spirits Within. FFXI didn't need a cash shop like FFXIV does because they had a larger budget and assests didn't cost as much to make - FFXI doesn't have voice acting for example so they didn't have to worry about lip movement.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
That's just being stupid. The P2P model is used more to supplant software and content updates with a possible surplus being used for hardware. SE has had used a great deal of FFXIV's revenue to get it out of debt and only recently started making money again. Since they make more than just their MMORPG, revenue is used to fund other projects as well so FFXIV is budgeted even further.
Then of course, there's employees to pay and the software isn't cheap to make either. FFXIV has also put a ton of content into their patches so more money is going into the creation of all these new functions.
With that, things like Euro servers would probably never happen until SE is finacially stable enough that FFXIV is not a crutch they have to lean on.
Thus a cash shop to give extra money for the FFXIV team to spend money on and buy those servers. There's most likely an agreement that the cash shop money is extra FFXIV money and not SE money. Like a tip if you will. Cash shops are cheaper because SE mostly updates them with seasonal event items so the assests are already made so no money has to be spent making it again. Everything else remains products people want but don't have to be updated to get more buyers.
That's not even going into free weekends, free month after buying, and vet rewards they offer you for free. The seasonal event items are different every year and easy to get, so every player that does it don't even have to look at the cash shop for them.
You don't understand business and until you do, you need to stop talking about greed.
Oh, i understand the situation perfectly. Its some other people that are in denial
FFXIV is one of the reasons they got in trouble in the FIRST PLACE.
And, what does that have to do with anything? Turning a project around and into a money maker is again not being greedy. I don't think you really understand how business works if you think that's being greedy.
It would be monumentally stupid to turn a project around and then pernamently give it away for free when you need the money to stay in business from it.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
Yes, facts are nice. Funny that you think euro servers amount to basic running of MMO while mentioning FFXI in the same paragraph. FFXI servers were located only in Japan, a little fact you seem to have forgotten. If a cash shop in XI gave us euro servers back in 2004 people would probably have more than obliged. But SE was stupid enough to never even offer players such an option.
More facts: FFXI sold many in-game items and services for extra money in its lifespan, the only difference being there was no unified centre of purchases for them. Another fact: FFXI lacked several crucial services that they were not willing to provide for the sub fee yet didn't make them available in the cash shop either, including name and appearance changes. Yet some other services they were more than willing to charge extra for in a cash shop like fashion, including server change and even additional characters.
FFXI offered many cash shop services without having an actual cash shop hub (including more inventory space, gear with teleport bonuses, more characters among others). FFXI also lacked many valuable cash shop services that they could have provided for additional income and which would have had a massive demand.
For being sooo happy with P2P they sure found plenty of ways to charge extra for additional services and items (without having a concrete cash shop hub for them, which according to you is the most important thing), as well as failing to offer other basic services that would have been extremely popular.
Theres quite a difference between cash shop and services.
And RMT.
It doesnt really matter that FFXI serevrs were located in Japan only, at the time they didnt take more money from people, or make crap exuses like "euro servers" to shove in cash shop and RMT in their game.
Yes, SQIX has changed (probably due to financial difficulties they had) and today they are just another little greedy bunch, shoving cash shops on top of mandatory subs, and requiring full sub for game in maitenance.
So yeah, there never was a game that merited a sub, few games came/come close, Lineage 2 and EvE (just because no box price and no additional charge for expansions).
When you quadriple dip with: box+mandatory sub+addtional cost for new content aka expansion on top of sub+cash shop on top of sub. No lol
so yeah, if anyone really wants objective answer: there hasnt been one yet, theoretically there could be, but theory is theory and practice is practice, most of games reelase in couple of years theoreticall offered "sub value" but changed their tune not long after launch, be it going F2P/B2P or adding cash shops.
On a subjective level: anything can be "worth a sub"
Unsurprisingly you have moved further and further away from facts - now that they no longer fit your argument. In fact you have done a complete 180 in a matter of just three posts. Impressive.
The Japanese always had an unfair advantage ping-wise because the servers were located only in Japan. In this context you saying "it doesn't matter" is quite comical. Back in 2003~ Western FFXI players were desperate for SE to make this so called "crap excuse" only so they could finally be on an equal ground with the rest of the playerbase. But let's keep to the facts shall we: the JP only servers mattered a whole lot and nothing was done about it ever despite a great deal of criticism and demand.
It's particularly hilarious how you say SE has become a greedy bunch, in light of the devs charging extra for having more than one character (which they do not do with FFXIV) AND actively encouraging such practices by not increasing the inventory space sufficiently (which was always a mere fraction of the current FFXIV inventory space) as well as by offering more inventory space for extra charge. All questionable practices that can put the shame the greediest of F2P companies.
"Yes, we know our players are starving for more inventory space. Fortunately we have found the perfect solution: with just $1 a month or for a one-time fee of $12,99 our players may solve their issue. This is not us being greedy by any means; you may consider it more a charity venture."
Lastly your objective answer is the opposite of "objective". Case in point: not all cash shops are created equal yet you assume they are. It's no wonder you resort to such foolishness however; your whole argument completely collapses if you include that objective quantifier.
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
Greed is taking more than you need for yourself. If a company is in a finacial crisis, charging more is not being greedy because that money is not going into their pocket.
Also, FFXI was released after FFX, their second most popular title to date after FFVII. FFX along with Enix merger, effectively put Square in a strong place finacially after the flop that was Spirits Within. FFXI didn't need a cash shop like FFXIV does because they had a larger budget and assests didn't cost as much to make - FFXI doesn't have voice acting for example so they didn't have to worry about lip movement.
You need to stop talking business now.
Oh, by all means, SQIX doesnt seem like saints any more like when they went to remake FFXIV. Everything has a cost. And youre paing it....through cash shop. If there was enough people playing there would be no cash shop. Its that simple, yes.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
That's just being stupid. The P2P model is used more to supplant software and content updates with a possible surplus being used for hardware. SE has had used a great deal of FFXIV's revenue to get it out of debt and only recently started making money again. Since they make more than just their MMORPG, revenue is used to fund other projects as well so FFXIV is budgeted even further.
Then of course, there's employees to pay and the software isn't cheap to make either. FFXIV has also put a ton of content into their patches so more money is going into the creation of all these new functions.
With that, things like Euro servers would probably never happen until SE is finacially stable enough that FFXIV is not a crutch they have to lean on.
Thus a cash shop to give extra money for the FFXIV team to spend money on and buy those servers. There's most likely an agreement that the cash shop money is extra FFXIV money and not SE money. Like a tip if you will. Cash shops are cheaper because SE mostly updates them with seasonal event items so the assests are already made so no money has to be spent making it again. Everything else remains products people want but don't have to be updated to get more buyers.
That's not even going into free weekends, free month after buying, and vet rewards they offer you for free. The seasonal event items are different every year and easy to get, so every player that does it don't even have to look at the cash shop for them.
You don't understand business and until you do, you need to stop talking about greed.
Oh, i understand the situation perfectly. Its some other people that are in denial
FFXIV is one of the reasons they got in trouble in the FIRST PLACE.
And, what does that have to do with anything? Turning a project around and into a money maker is again not being greedy. I don't think you really understand how business works if you think that's being greedy.
It would be monumentally stupid to turn a project around and then pernamently give it away for free when you need the money to stay in business from it.
You guys have to decide:
is it just plain greed or not enough people playing. Not even you can agree among yourselves.
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
The bottom line is that having or not having a cash shop doesn't change their sub numbers in any shape or form. Thus, when presented with these two options, any competent business would opt to include the cash shop, regardless of their "need" for it. That is because there is always a "need" to make more money than you are making now. That was true in 2002, it is even more true in 2015.
That you even mentioned this "need" argument shows how uninformed you truly are. Are you going to turn down 5000 dollars just because you didn't have a "need" for it at the time? You sure as hell will not. Assuming that companies operate on some different dimension in this regard is laughable. A company can get more money without any repercussions; the company will take advantage. It is the soul of capitalism that you always try to get more money than before. There is no "enough". There is no situation when you don't "need" more money.
You also seem to think companies aren't trying to squeeze the most profits out of their activities at all times without exceptions. In what universe do you live in, really?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
The bottom line is that having or not having a cash shop doesn't change their sub numbers in any shape or form. Thus, when presented with these two options, any competent business would opt to include the cash shop, regardless of their "need" for it. That is because there is always a "need" to make more money than you are making now. That was true in 2002, it is even more true in 2015.
That you even mentioned this "need" argument shows how uninformed you truly are. Are you going to turn down 5000 dollars just because you didn't have a "need" for it at the time? You sure as hell will not. Assuming that companies operate on some different dimension in this regard is laughable. A company can get more money without any repercussions; the company will take advantage. It is the soul of capitalism that you always try to get more money than before. There is no "enough". There is no situation when you don't "need" more money.
You also seem to think companies aren't trying to squeeze the most profits out of their activities at all times without exceptions. In what universe do you live in, really?
And thats where what you claim falls apart because you can in NO WAY claim they dont need cash shop.
Once you back up your claims with some solid official financial data, FFXIV cannot be used as shining example of success of P2P.
Of major MMOs there are only 2: WoW and EvE and there are some minor MMOs.
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
You also seem to think companies aren't trying to squeeze the most profits out of their activities at all times without exceptions. In what universe do you live in, really?
Right? Definitely not this universe, dude is stuck in his own little world with no clue of what's happening outside of it. Too funny. LMAO
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
The bottom line is that having or not having a cash shop doesn't change their sub numbers in any shape or form. Thus, when presented with these two options, any competent business would opt to include the cash shop, regardless of their "need" for it. That is because there is always a "need" to make more money than you are making now. That was true in 2002, it is even more true in 2015.
That you even mentioned this "need" argument shows how uninformed you truly are. Are you going to turn down 5000 dollars just because you didn't have a "need" for it at the time? You sure as hell will not. Assuming that companies operate on some different dimension in this regard is laughable. A company can get more money without any repercussions; the company will take advantage. It is the soul of capitalism that you always try to get more money than before. There is no "enough". There is no situation when you don't "need" more money.
You also seem to think companies aren't trying to squeeze the most profits out of their activities at all times without exceptions. In what universe do you live in, really?
And thats where what you claim falls apart because you can in NO WAY claim they dont need cash shop.
Once you back up your claims with some solid official financial data, FFXIV cannot be used as shining example of success of P2P.
Of major MMOs there are only 2: WoW and EvE and there are some minor MMOs.
Other than that....nope.
How about you back up that claim that they NEED a cash shop? You can in NO WAY claim that they NEED a cash shop.
WOW has a cash shop, would you say they NEEDED that just because it's there?
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
The bottom line is that having or not having a cash shop doesn't change their sub numbers in any shape or form. Thus, when presented with these two options, any competent business would opt to include the cash shop, regardless of their "need" for it. That is because there is always a "need" to make more money than you are making now. That was true in 2002, it is even more true in 2015.
That you even mentioned this "need" argument shows how uninformed you truly are. Are you going to turn down 5000 dollars just because you didn't have a "need" for it at the time? You sure as hell will not. Assuming that companies operate on some different dimension in this regard is laughable. A company can get more money without any repercussions; the company will take advantage. It is the soul of capitalism that you always try to get more money than before. There is no "enough". There is no situation when you don't "need" more money.
You also seem to think companies aren't trying to squeeze the most profits out of their activities at all times without exceptions. In what universe do you live in, really?
And thats where what you claim falls apart because you can in NO WAY claim they dont need cash shop.
Once you back up your claims with some solid official financial data, FFXIV cannot be used as shining example of success of P2P.
Of major MMOs there are only 2: WoW and EvE and there are some minor MMOs.
Other than that....nope.
What YOU cannot prove is that this "need" is due to being in financial trouble rather than a capitalistic company working within the capitalistic principles of "you always need to have more than before". SE worked this way in 2002, they work this way in 2015. Prove me wrong.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
Yes, facts are nice. Funny that you think euro servers amount to basic running of MMO while mentioning FFXI in the same paragraph. FFXI servers were located only in Japan, a little fact you seem to have forgotten. If a cash shop in XI gave us euro servers back in 2004 people would probably have more than obliged. But SE was stupid enough to never even offer players such an option.
More facts: FFXI sold many in-game items and services for extra money in its lifespan, the only difference being there was no unified centre of purchases for them. Another fact: FFXI lacked several crucial services that they were not willing to provide for the sub fee yet didn't make them available in the cash shop either, including name and appearance changes. Yet some other services they were more than willing to charge extra for in a cash shop like fashion, including server change and even additional characters.
FFXI offered many cash shop services without having an actual cash shop hub (including more inventory space, gear with teleport bonuses, more characters among others). FFXI also lacked many valuable cash shop services that they could have provided for additional income and which would have had a massive demand.
For being sooo happy with P2P they sure found plenty of ways to charge extra for additional services and items (without having a concrete cash shop hub for them, which according to you is the most important thing), as well as failing to offer other basic services that would have been extremely popular.
Theres quite a difference between cash shop and services.
And RMT.
It doesnt really matter that FFXI serevrs were located in Japan only, at the time they didnt take more money from people, or make crap exuses like "euro servers" to shove in cash shop and RMT in their game.
Yes, SQIX has changed (probably due to financial difficulties they had) and today they are just another little greedy bunch, shoving cash shops on top of mandatory subs, and requiring full sub for game in maitenance.
So yeah, there never was a game that merited a sub, few games came/come close, Lineage 2 and EvE (just because no box price and no additional charge for expansions).
When you quadriple dip with: box+mandatory sub+addtional cost for new content aka expansion on top of sub+cash shop on top of sub. No lol
so yeah, if anyone really wants objective answer: there hasnt been one yet, theoretically there could be, but theory is theory and practice is practice, most of games reelase in couple of years theoreticall offered "sub value" but changed their tune not long after launch, be it going F2P/B2P or adding cash shops.
On a subjective level: anything can be "worth a sub"
Unsurprisingly you have moved further and further away from facts - now that they no longer fit your argument. In fact you have done a complete 180 in a matter of just three posts. Impressive.
The Japanese always had an unfair advantage ping-wise because the servers were located only in Japan. In this context you saying "it doesn't matter" is quite comical. Back in 2003~ Western FFXI players were desperate for SE to make this so called "crap excuse" only so they could finally be on an equal ground with the rest of the playerbase. But let's keep to the facts shall we: the JP only servers mattered a whole lot and nothing was done about it ever despite a great deal of criticism and demand.
It's particularly hilarious how you say SE has become a greedy bunch, in light of the devs charging extra for having more than one character (which they do not do with FFXIV) AND actively encouraging such practices by not increasing the inventory space sufficiently (which was always a mere fraction of the current FFXIV inventory space) as well as by offering more inventory space for extra charge. All questionable practices that can put the shame the greediest of F2P companies.
"Yes, we know our players are starving for more inventory space. Fortunately we have found the perfect solution: with just $1 a month or for a one-time fee of $12,99 our players may solve their issue. This is not us being greedy by any means; you may consider it more a charity venture."
Lastly your objective answer is the opposite of "objective". Case in point: not all cash shops are created equal yet you assume they are. It's no wonder you resort to such foolishness however; your whole argument completely collapses if you include that objective quantifier.
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
Greed is taking more than you need for yourself. If a company is in a finacial crisis, charging more is not being greedy because that money is not going into their pocket.
Also, FFXI was released after FFX, their second most popular title to date after FFVII. FFX along with Enix merger, effectively put Square in a strong place finacially after the flop that was Spirits Within. FFXI didn't need a cash shop like FFXIV does because they had a larger budget and assests didn't cost as much to make - FFXI doesn't have voice acting for example so they didn't have to worry about lip movement.
You need to stop talking business now.
Oh, by all means, SQIX doesnt seem like saints any more like when they went to remake FFXIV. Everything has a cost. And youre paing it....through cash shop. If there was enough people playing there would be no cash shop. Its that simple, yes.
Except, of course, that everything in the cash shop are not needed to play the game - server transfers, mount, fantasias, seasonal items, etc. are extra things, and in some cases exclusive content that in the past were a physical item bundled when you bought it - such as figurines, signed copies, and art books.
Exclusive content in a cash shop is just a way - after a time - for everyone to get access to it while not making people who bought your collector's edition feel like they were ripped off.
But, yes, we are paying for it. What's the problem? Tell me, how do you expect them to make money? More projects? Those cost money, and unlike remaking FFXIV, art assests have to be made from scratch so it costs more. At the very least, FFXIV had a lot of assests in place for the remake portion with assests then being to pay for new content and art assests. The patches had a noticeably higher quality than the base Realm Reborn game - it wasn't until patches that the game, for example, had NPCs recognize and remember you in the main story if you had quests done with them already.
I wasn't even there for it (I'm new FFXIV) and I know this from pure research of articles, interviews, and playthroughs.
But, you need to stop acting like certain actions are corporate greed when they are just a smat business model to save your company.
Honestly the only MMO that deserves a subscription only system is the one people know deserves it, the numbers speak for themselves.
Wow is the only one, because 8 million people say so. 8 million people agree and happily pay a subscription.
ESO had barely 700k subscribers.
FFXIV barely has 500k subscribers from Japan, Europe and America combined.
Numbers really do speak for themselves.
You can give all the reasons you like as to why a game deserves a sub but people just don't buy those excuses, if they did the numbers would mirror it.
FFXIV has enough subs to make the devs happy and the playerbase happy. With those undeniable facts out of the way who the hell is scorpex-x to come and say the game doesn't deserve it? You are laughable.
FFXIV keeps proving itself to be incredibly successful in the eyes of it's customers and publisher with the P2P model (which is the only thing that matters). The facts do really speak for themselves.
They were so happy with P2P that they needed cash shop.
Yes, facts speak for themselves.
Do you often decline free money when it is given to you? With the argument that "I have already enough money, so thanks but no thanks"?They can open a modest cash shop with little effect on their bottom line. Of course they will do it. They would be completely moronic not to. Just because they are happy with P2P doesn't mean they should decline more free money. Don't be stupid now.
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
That's just being stupid. The P2P model is used more to supplant software and content updates with a possible surplus being used for hardware. SE has had used a great deal of FFXIV's revenue to get it out of debt and only recently started making money again. Since they make more than just their MMORPG, revenue is used to fund other projects as well so FFXIV is budgeted even further.
Then of course, there's employees to pay and the software isn't cheap to make either. FFXIV has also put a ton of content into their patches so more money is going into the creation of all these new functions.
With that, things like Euro servers would probably never happen until SE is finacially stable enough that FFXIV is not a crutch they have to lean on.
Thus a cash shop to give extra money for the FFXIV team to spend money on and buy those servers. There's most likely an agreement that the cash shop money is extra FFXIV money and not SE money. Like a tip if you will. Cash shops are cheaper because SE mostly updates them with seasonal event items so the assests are already made so no money has to be spent making it again. Everything else remains products people want but don't have to be updated to get more buyers.
That's not even going into free weekends, free month after buying, and vet rewards they offer you for free. The seasonal event items are different every year and easy to get, so every player that does it don't even have to look at the cash shop for them.
You don't understand business and until you do, you need to stop talking about greed.
Oh, i understand the situation perfectly. Its some other people that are in denial
FFXIV is one of the reasons they got in trouble in the FIRST PLACE.
And, what does that have to do with anything? Turning a project around and into a money maker is again not being greedy. I don't think you really understand how business works if you think that's being greedy.
It would be monumentally stupid to turn a project around and then pernamently give it away for free when you need the money to stay in business from it.
You guys have to decide:
is it just plain greed or not enough people playing. Not even you can agree among yourselves.
It's not enough players to supplant the entirity of Square Enix. It's enough money to supplant their content costs, but not additional hardware costs since software trumps hardware by giving players more things to do and thus keeping the player base.
Comments
Thats all nice and dandy....if they didnt say they need it for euro servers and such things which amount to basic running of MMO. And a little fact FFXI never got a cash shop. Now, THATS a game where they were happy with P2P.
You see - facts.
Yes, facts are nice. Funny that you think euro servers amount to basic running of MMO while mentioning FFXI in the same paragraph. FFXI servers were located only in Japan, a little fact you seem to have forgotten. If a cash shop in XI gave us euro servers back in 2004 people would probably have more than obliged. But SE was stupid enough to never even offer players such an option.
More facts: FFXI sold many in-game items and services for extra money in its lifespan, the only difference being there was no unified centre of purchases for them. Another fact: FFXI lacked several crucial services that they were not willing to provide for the sub fee yet didn't make them available in the cash shop either, including name and appearance changes. Yet some other services they were more than willing to charge extra for in a cash shop like fashion, including server change and even additional characters.
FFXI offered many cash shop services without having an actual cash shop hub (including more inventory space, gear with teleport bonuses, more characters among others). FFXI also lacked many valuable cash shop services that they could have provided for additional income and which would have had a massive demand.
For being sooo happy with P2P they sure found plenty of ways to charge extra for additional services and items (without having a concrete cash shop hub for them, which according to you is the most important thing), as well as failing to offer other basic services that would have been extremely popular.
"Can any game released merit a subscription?"
Sure
1 Covering cost of running and maintaining a game
2 Updating game, with fixes, enhancements and additional material
3 Optionally, for future development that involve non trivial changes to the game
4 Adding NEW content, for sake of immersion, depth, richness, lore, more fun. (Not superficial crap, like reskinned weapons in Planetside 2.)
Theres quite a difference between cash shop and services.
And RMT.
It doesnt really matter that FFXI serevrs were located in Japan only, at the time they didnt take more money from people, or make crap exuses like "euro servers" to shove in cash shop and RMT in their game.
Yes, SQIX has changed (probably due to financial difficulties they had) and today they are just another little greedy bunch, shoving cash shops on top of mandatory subs, and requiring full sub for game in maitenance.
So yeah, there never was a game that merited a sub, few games came/come close, Lineage 2 and EvE (just because no box price and no additional charge for expansions).
When you quadriple dip with: box+mandatory sub+addtional cost for new content aka expansion on top of sub+cash shop on top of sub. No lol
so yeah, if anyone really wants objective answer: there hasnt been one yet, theoretically there could be, but theory is theory and practice is practice, most of games reelase in couple of years theoreticall offered "sub value" but changed their tune not long after launch, be it going F2P/B2P or adding cash shops.
On a subjective level: anything can be "worth a sub"
Unsurprisingly you have moved further and further away from facts - now that they no longer fit your argument. In fact you have done a complete 180 in a matter of just three posts. Impressive.
The Japanese always had an unfair advantage ping-wise because the servers were located only in Japan. In this context you saying "it doesn't matter" is quite comical. Back in 2003~ Western FFXI players were desperate for SE to make this so called "crap excuse" only so they could finally be on an equal ground with the rest of the playerbase. But let's keep to the facts shall we: the JP only servers mattered a whole lot and nothing was done about it ever despite a great deal of criticism and demand.
It's particularly hilarious how you say SE has become a greedy bunch, in light of the devs charging extra for having more than one character (which they do not do with FFXIV) AND actively encouraging such practices by not increasing the inventory space sufficiently (which was always a mere fraction of the current FFXIV inventory space) as well as by offering more inventory space for extra charge. All questionable practices that can put the shame the greediest of F2P companies.
"Yes, we know our players are starving for more inventory space. Fortunately we have found the perfect solution: with just $1 a month or for a one-time fee of $12,99 our players may solve their issue. This is not us being greedy by any means; you may consider it more a charity venture."
Lastly your objective answer is the opposite of "objective". Case in point: not all cash shops are created equal yet you assume they are. It's no wonder you resort to such foolishness however; your whole argument completely collapses if you include that objective quantifier.
Most if not all of those games experienced their significant drops within the release period; once the playerbases established their decline was much more temperate and controlled. More importantly the devs struggled in even getting started at providing any long-term support for said games. It also doesn't help that most of those games were seen as complete crap, which affects their success regardless of the payment model. They were flops, simple as that.
There is no such thing as "pure P2P success". Cash shop is free money to everyone. Being a "pure P2P success" would mean a company declines free money because they have "enough". That there are no P2P without cash shops does indeed speak volumes that no companies would decline from free additional revenue with no downsides. Why would anyone even assume that there exists a "pure P2P" alternative? You'd be a moron to provide a pure P2P service, since the downsides only come to play through the extent at which the devs offer cash shop services. You fail to take into account the importance of context; not all cash shops are created equal in this sense.
You are also still disagreeing with one of the most successful and competent developers in the industry by the way. You think he is speaking nonsense?
To some there might not be a reason, need or want to ever play a game they need to have an active sub, that is fine, it is how they feel.
Myself I have played a lot of games over the years and I find i keep going back to two that are sub based. My reason is simple, there is no other game out there that offers me what these do.
I am more then happy to pay a monthly fee for a game I enjoy. So, yes. To me, both of them merit a sub.
Okay, what device are you trying to download it on? A PC, PS3 or a PS4? If a PC, sometimes antivirus software will block downloads, so disable it until you finish download.
If you are trying to download wirelessly, you might be dropping the connection somehow. Try putting in a hard wire.
EQ2 has a sub option as well and we are not talking about how many are playing the game, read your original post.
I didnt move anything. Services had cost before because it wasnt automated process. Today, yes, its pure greed to charge for such service. You can see the pattern.
Bottom line is they NEEDED cash shop because sub is not enough because not enoiugh people play. You can spin it any way you want, but they never did it with FFXI.
They became greedier because whole company was in financial troube.
You can tout how "P2P has merit"....if theres cash shop, so every player is expected to spend more than sub to keep game going. FFXIV certainly isnt the case you want to put up as some kind of proof because it has RMT along mandatory sub.
Oh, but it is, you claim theres a game that "trumps everything out there" but that noone plays. Draw your own conclusion.
people certainly didnt think EQ2 is subworthy.
That's just being stupid. The P2P model is used more to supplant software and content updates with a possible surplus being used for hardware. SE has had used a great deal of FFXIV's revenue to get it out of debt and only recently started making money again. Since they make more than just their MMORPG, revenue is used to fund other projects as well so FFXIV is budgeted even further.
Then of course, there's employees to pay and the software isn't cheap to make either. FFXIV has also put a ton of content into their patches so more money is going into the creation of all these new functions.
With that, things like Euro servers would probably never happen until SE is finacially stable enough that FFXIV is not a crutch they have to lean on.
Thus a cash shop to give extra money for the FFXIV team to spend money on and buy those servers. There's most likely an agreement that the cash shop money is extra FFXIV money and not SE money. Like a tip if you will. Cash shops are cheaper because SE mostly updates them with seasonal event items so the assests are already made so no money has to be spent making it again. Everything else remains products people want but don't have to be updated to get more buyers.
That's not even going into free weekends, free month after buying, and vet rewards they offer you for free. The seasonal event items are different every year and easy to get, so every player that does it don't even have to look at the cash shop for them.
You don't understand business and until you do, you need to stop talking about greed.
Oh, i understand the situation perfectly. Its some other people that are in denial
FFXIV is one of the reasons they got in trouble in the FIRST PLACE.
Greed is taking more than you need for yourself. If a company is in a finacial crisis, charging more is not being greedy because that money is not going into their pocket.
Also, FFXI was released after FFX, their second most popular title to date after FFVII. FFX along with Enix merger, effectively put Square in a strong place finacially after the flop that was Spirits Within. FFXI didn't need a cash shop like FFXIV does because they had a larger budget and assests didn't cost as much to make - FFXI doesn't have voice acting for example so they didn't have to worry about lip movement.
You need to stop talking business now.
And, what does that have to do with anything? Turning a project around and into a money maker is again not being greedy. I don't think you really understand how business works if you think that's being greedy.
It would be monumentally stupid to turn a project around and then pernamently give it away for free when you need the money to stay in business from it.
Oh, by all means, SQIX doesnt seem like saints any more like when they went to remake FFXIV. Everything has a cost. And youre paing it....through cash shop. If there was enough people playing there would be no cash shop. Its that simple, yes.
You guys have to decide:
is it just plain greed or not enough people playing. Not even you can agree among yourselves.
The bottom line is that having or not having a cash shop doesn't change their sub numbers in any shape or form. Thus, when presented with these two options, any competent business would opt to include the cash shop, regardless of their "need" for it. That is because there is always a "need" to make more money than you are making now. That was true in 2002, it is even more true in 2015.
That you even mentioned this "need" argument shows how uninformed you truly are. Are you going to turn down 5000 dollars just because you didn't have a "need" for it at the time? You sure as hell will not. Assuming that companies operate on some different dimension in this regard is laughable. A company can get more money without any repercussions; the company will take advantage. It is the soul of capitalism that you always try to get more money than before. There is no "enough". There is no situation when you don't "need" more money.
You also seem to think companies aren't trying to squeeze the most profits out of their activities at all times without exceptions. In what universe do you live in, really?
And thats where what you claim falls apart because you can in NO WAY claim they dont need cash shop.
Once you back up your claims with some solid official financial data, FFXIV cannot be used as shining example of success of P2P.
Of major MMOs there are only 2: WoW and EvE and there are some minor MMOs.
Other than that....nope.
Right? Definitely not this universe, dude is stuck in his own little world with no clue of what's happening outside of it. Too funny. LMAO
How about you back up that claim that they NEED a cash shop? You can in NO WAY claim that they NEED a cash shop.
WOW has a cash shop, would you say they NEEDED that just because it's there?
What YOU cannot prove is that this "need" is due to being in financial trouble rather than a capitalistic company working within the capitalistic principles of "you always need to have more than before". SE worked this way in 2002, they work this way in 2015. Prove me wrong.
Except, of course, that everything in the cash shop are not needed to play the game - server transfers, mount, fantasias, seasonal items, etc. are extra things, and in some cases exclusive content that in the past were a physical item bundled when you bought it - such as figurines, signed copies, and art books.
Exclusive content in a cash shop is just a way - after a time - for everyone to get access to it while not making people who bought your collector's edition feel like they were ripped off.
But, yes, we are paying for it. What's the problem? Tell me, how do you expect them to make money? More projects? Those cost money, and unlike remaking FFXIV, art assests have to be made from scratch so it costs more. At the very least, FFXIV had a lot of assests in place for the remake portion with assests then being to pay for new content and art assests. The patches had a noticeably higher quality than the base Realm Reborn game - it wasn't until patches that the game, for example, had NPCs recognize and remember you in the main story if you had quests done with them already.
I wasn't even there for it (I'm new FFXIV) and I know this from pure research of articles, interviews, and playthroughs.
But, you need to stop acting like certain actions are corporate greed when they are just a smat business model to save your company.
It's not enough players to supplant the entirity of Square Enix. It's enough money to supplant their content costs, but not additional hardware costs since software trumps hardware by giving players more things to do and thus keeping the player base.
Uh, I'm pretty sure you're the only one calling it greed and not enough people playing. Making up **** I see. Figures.