Its easy to see the best possible outcomes of things when they are first presented for the masses to adopt.
If this takes off there will be a very real concern that people will produce shit and charge for it, The "market" will be full of low quality mods because you know, everyone wants to make buck much like how the mobile scene is atm.
Actually the mobile scene is a prime example: make an app or a game, (it can even be blatant mario world copy) and you will receive 75% of the profits for yourselves with the other percentage going to the 'publisher' everyone wins right?
TBH Steam has already let people produce shit and charge for it with their GreenLight system.
The hysteria in this thread is not unexpected. It's quite normal for players to go ballistic if they have to face the threat of having to possibly PAY for stuff they used to get totally free...
I think it's a great idea that is a completely inevitable development. I'd expect that the original developer of the core game will get a cut of the sale price. It's their product that's being indirectly monetized, after all. Either way, they are probably happy with the extra exposure and playability it gives their games.
Charging for your mod on Steam Workshop is optional.
Steam offer a refund policy if you're not happy with the purchased mod.
I'm sure that this system will be expanded to eventually include all moddable games on Steam. It will also increase the amount of mods being made, which is only a good thing. The only downside I can see is trying to decide which mods to actually use in that catalog of 1000's of offers...
Are we sure a procentage of the 75% is not going to the game owner? That would be logical in my opinion
Originally posted by Vrika
Giving the modder only 25% cut is just sick. Bethesda already charged players for the game and assets when they sold us Skyrim. Now Bethesda wants to double-charge for the same game and same assets by adding extra fee to those who use mods.
I know the store costs something to operate, and I understand they have to take a cut from sales to cover up those costs. But that cut should be reasonable, not 3 times as large as the modders cut.
Actually they would allow mod-makers to get some money back for there hard work, but it would be logical if they want a share of it. Why would they to allow people to freely profit from there work? You can use a lot of game engines for free, but once you start to use it for a commercial product you have to start to pay. Why would this be any different for a mod? I think 25% for the mods might be a bit low, but not by much. If it would be something like this 30% for steam (standard for regular games) 45% for the game owner and 25% for the mod developer. 30-40-30 or 30-30-40 however would be fairer in my opinion.
And yes the game owner getting more would not be unfair. They mostly did most of the work, making both the base game and the tools to mod. If a mod developer dislikes that he could always decide to create a game himself (and plenty mod makers have done so in the past to start selling there game). However as a game-owner I would give mod makes a bigger share. Let's face it a good mod (and when mod makers get a decent income from it they only get better!) will increase the sale of your base game after all.
Very smart move on Steams part. A lot of good mods will become steam exclusive, meaning there income from both the mods and the games in question would increase as more people will buy the base game from steam!
As someone who has made popular mods before I wish that the cut was higher. Especially if the works contains entirely new models, skins, animations or new code. With that being said I have also seen 3d artists and animators both professional and hobbiest like myself have their work stolen, uploaded and sold on various websites that sell such things. I have come to the realization that once I give my work up to the community in any form, I have little to no control of what happens to it after that. If someone is going to steal my work and make money off it, I want my cut first. Something is better than nothing.
If Moders would read and try to fully understand the agreements on the Steam webpage they would not list their mod for sale. The actual cut they get is 16%. Let me explain:
For illustration purpose let's take the Awesome Sword of Death and Pain (glowing) that costs $3.
Steam takes 30% of sale value like they do with all sales except Market which is 15%. Steam gets $1 from the sale.
We have $2 left which is given to the Developer which can decide how he want's to split with the Moder. In this case Bethesda decided they want 75% and give the Moder 25%.
Bethesda get's $1.50 (75% of $2)
The Moder get's $0.50 (25% of $2)
They get an incredible $0.50 (16% of the $3 sale price).
_____
Now, don't get me wrong. I would love to have an easy way to pay moders like the steam workshop but i am not willing to line the pockets of Steam and Bethesda which both make a killing already by selling more games because of the mod community.
Skyrim would not be still in the top played games every week if not for the mod community. This is a fact.
_____
The potential for abuse is huge and Steam refuses to curate or put in some sort o quality control. Good luck finding quality mods when everyone spams this with textures and crap. You will be wading through hundreds of scam attempts and low quality, unfinished early access type mods all day before you find the good stuff. Skyrim already has 24,000 mods to start with.
The potential minefield with sharing mod content with other mods that share it with yet other mods. If one Moder in that chain decides to monetize it what will happen? Yeah, it's a legal nightmare waiting to happen.
_____
This is only the start. They are testing the waters. The next game releases will have strict EULA agreements that will only let you present your mods on Steam and not on other platforms. They will sue everyone trying to make money with their mods outside of Steam. This is going to kill the mod community.
Steam refuses to curate or quality control the mods. They do NOTHING and get 30% of the sales. If you think that is fair and is to cover their operational cost then you are delusional.
They see another big revenue stream like they did with paid Alpha, Early Access and day one DLC's without lifting a finger. This does not increase their operational cost.
Don't be fooled by the Industry shills that say stupid shit like:
"This is good, it will encourage more developers to offer mod support"
"This is great for Moders, now they can make some money"
Everyone knew already that offering mod support increases your sales by a significant number yet they still don't do it. They won't start now. Moders could already make as much money with donations because the measly 16% they get from Steam will not be more.
I will donate to Moders but i will not give them money on Steam Workshop.
I would gladly pay for good mods, reward the huge dedication and effort these people put into their creations.
I am not going to give a greedy multi-billion dollar company and their industry cronies my money if they keep 75% and only give 25% to the person that actually did all the work.
If that hurts the modders also then i am sorry but i am not going to fill the pockets of a fat rich jerk with a knife fetish.
look up the terms
operating costs
legal fees
administrative cost
Just to paint a picture....
if a modder sells his mod for 10$... How much of those 10$ do you actually think end up "in the pocket" once all operating costs are deducted...
To explain it clearly... The costs for each individual sale could (and yes this is based on personal experience working with event merchendicing and not any inner knowledge of Valves economics.. but it serves to illustrate the problem. ) eat as much as 50% of those 10$.. making it a even 25 split in profit for each side... now ofc if it is sold for 20$ steam will get a bigger cut as the operating cost will still be around 5$.. otoh if they modder sells it for 2$... Yeah... you do the math...
I run a business myself and you have no idea what you are talking about. You can't even spell merchandising for crying out loud. This is exactly the apologetic, big corporation defending nonsense from people with no knowledge that got fed ideas from corporations how hard it is to make money.
/smh
Since he is from sweden I think it's forgivable that he misspelled "merchandising".
I also question that you actually run a business if you have no idea what operating costs, legal costs and administrative costs are.
He is exactly correct in his assessment.
I've worked for Corporate America for over 15 years and whenever new products or services are offered there are always these considerations. Of course they would have already budgeted certain things into their operating costs but they just don't sit their thinking "yeah, let's just charge for these things and rake in more money. Put a buy button there by this afternoon!"
You tell me it is forgivable to misspell your Job description? You got to be kidding me. I am a "busyness proffesionell" i know what i am talking about. LMAO!
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When did i say i don't know what operating costs, legal or admin costs are? You have issues reading?
Steam and Bethesda both said they will not curate or quality control the Workshop. They have no additional cost except the payment processing which is not that high. They actually only put a button there, that's it.
Steam get's 30% of the sale value for doing.... JACK SHIT!
The actual cut the Moder get's is 16%. Learn to read the Steam workshop agreements. Gotta love the armchair business professionals on forums.
When did i say i don't know what operating costs, legal or admin costs are? You have issues reading?
Well you DID say that i do no know jack when i brought up those costs... That sort of imply that you do not exactly grasp how such concepts works as they are key in considering how to price a service.
But feel free to explain how i am wrong in assuming that those costs have a impact on how much the modder will get.?
while i also think 25% for the modder is abit low you have to think about those points:
Valve pays for the whole infrastructure, server and so on...
The content is owned by the GAMES company, you actually can make money now as a modder by using other people work(see i turned the argument around that some greedy companies have to do nothing, they have to develop a game)
Valve could have done nothing and modders continue to get 0%.........
Overall it is a good thing and i think we will see lots of shit but also some real gems now that are 10 times cheaper than DLC's but better.
EDIT: another point is that steams offers reasons for game companies to allow fucking modsupport again like back in the days
When did i say i don't know what operating costs, legal or admin costs are? You have issues reading?
Well you DID say that i do no know jack when i brought up those costs... That sort of imply that you do not exactly grasp how such concepts works as they are key in considering how to price a service.
But feel free to explain how i am wrong in assuming that those costs have a impact on how much the modder will get.?
I think i did explain in my post that the only cost Steam has is payment processing. The rest of the Workshop is already in place for quite some time. They don't have any other costs because they said themselves that they will not do anything with the workshop areas, it's hands off for them. No curation or quality control, ZERO, ZILCH, you get that?
No curation or quality control = No Admin Cost, No Legal Cost.
Workshop is already free and remains free = No operational cost.
Payment option adds Processing = 5-8% depending on the service you use. Not the 30% they keep from every sale.
You nit picked one sentence and ignored the rest of my post because you know i am right so with this being said there is no point further discussing this with you.
Steam get's 30% of the sale value for doing.... JACK SHIT!
The actual cut the Moder get's is 16%. Learn to read the Steam workshop agreements. Gotta love the armchair business professionals on forums.
/smh
Yes because creating a platform like steam just grows on tree right? Servers do not need maintenance either right? You can say that 30% is to much, but that they do jack shit? They are constantly developing, advertising, etc and that will all benefit the mod developer as well.
This is only the start. They are testing the waters. The next game releases will have strict EULA agreements that will only let you present your mods on Steam and not on other platforms. They will sue everyone trying to make money with their mods outside of Steam. This is going to kill the mod community.
Steam refuses to curate or quality control the mods. They do NOTHING and get 30% of the sales. If you think that is fair and is to cover their operational cost then you are delusional.
They see another big revenue stream like they did with paid Alpha, Early Access and day one DLC's without lifting a finger. This does not increase their operational cost.
Don't be fooled by the Industry shills that say stupid shit like:
"This is good, it will encourage more developers to offer mod support"
"This is great for Moders, now they can make some money"
Everyone knew already that offering mod support increases your sales by a significant number yet they still don't do it. They won't start now. Moders could already make as much money with donations because the measly 16% they get from Steam will not be more.
I will donate to Moders but i will not give them money on Steam Workshop.
This is exactly what I've been saying in Nexus and some Steam groups.
They are testing the waters and hitting players hard with a bad idea. People will scream at change, overreact, and make a lot of noise.
Valve tunes it until the noise level resides, either from reluctant acceptace or simple fatigue and the generally short attention span of the internet.
Next Bethesda release: Pay for the modding tools, you may only release your mod on Steam Workshop behind a pay wall with Valvthesda taking no responsibility for bad modding.
Oh, and they've maybe forgotten to include a few nice things in their new game... but that's so the players/modders can create a it in the modding tools, then sell it (with Valvthesda taking their cut of course).
By this time they're banking on players being numb to the changes and just accepting paying for the next Unofficial Patch that fixes their game.
Steam get's 30% of the sale value for doing.... JACK SHIT!
The actual cut the Moder get's is 16%. Learn to read the Steam workshop agreements. Gotta love the armchair business professionals on forums.
/smh
Yes because creating a platform like steam just grows on tree right? Servers do not need maintenance either right? You can say that 30% is to much, but that they do jack shit? They are constantly developing, advertising, etc and that will all benefit the mod developer as well.
In case you have not noticed: THE WORKSHOP HAS BEEN FREE AND STILL IS.
So how is it suddenly costing them a lot of money to run it when it has been free for mods and has been like that for years, how is it costing them so much to add a pay button that they take 84% of the proceeds?
After reading through everything, I realized not many people here even understand what is going on in it's entirety. Which is why you have some people talking about why the cut is split the way it is, and some defending it. Most people are talking about the things that hardly matter, and missing many issues that this will cause or has already caused.
It's not a good thing, and it doesn't take a long to figure that out when you actually understand how this can effect the modding community.
Care to explain how it's not good and how you think it will affect the modding community?
Ok, here is a full list of the problems.
1) Modding is something a person tends to do simply because they like the game. They are fan and it's pretty similar to a fan making fan art. They don't typically start making mods to look for a way to earn money because they never have been able to before. This means, they start making the mods they do, without the thought of being able to earn any income from it. They do it for themselves, and the community. That is what made the community so appealing.
My point here is that now if you can earn money to do this. you are very likely to see a bunch of people hopping on board just to earn a quick buck. It will soon no longer be about the community, it will be about what is the best way to cheat people.
If you go on a modding website like Nexus mods, you will see already a modder by the name of Chesko has ran into issues and now is likely never going to mod again. The creator of one of the most popular mods has been driven out of the modding community because people feel he betrayed them. He even removed his mods off of Steam Workshop, or I should say tried. He used FNIS in his fishing mod, without permission and tried to sell it.
So essentially this has caused a lot of drama in the community already. Isoku is another modder who has been torn to shreds by the community. Everyone is now pitted against each other.
2) Paying even more money to the companies for work they have not done. We already pay for the game, pre-orders, micro-transactions, and dlc. This is just one more ways the companies are trying to take even more money while throwing people under a bus to do so.
That modder Chesko I mentioned, he can't remove the mod entirely off the workshop. Valve said they will not remove it unless he takes legal action. Something people don't realize is under the agreement for uploading your content to the workshop, you also give up your rights on your content to Valve. It states they are free to pretty much do what ever it is they wish with it. Of course this is part of the modders fault for accepting such an agreement and not reading it through properly. However, this just goes to show you ... the deal is no where as good as it seems.
Anyone who thinks the 75% cut is fair is also kidding themselves. It's not fair in the least bit, and NO steams store costs are not going to cost 75% of the damned profits. That is simply silly.
3) Mods added value to games. If you could mod a game, it made the game seem a lot better because you could alter it to suit the way you like to play your game. Charging for mods, destroys that. It no longer adds value, it takes away from it, because now you are being charged even more money. So for the general consumer this isn't a good thing, unless you simply don't care to throw your money at companies without a second thought. I play with about 100 mods on Skyrim. Now imagine if all of them costed money.
Now of course, this is being slightly unrealistic since of course not all mod authors are going to charge money, which bring me to the fourth point.
4) Let's say companies see this as a good idea. They can now make money off of other peoples work. Who is to say they will not release their games with modding tools that you can only use if you release and go through their store? Meaning this can cause a domino effect. A future where all mods are now paid for. The modding community would no longer be a community, it would be a business. If you think something like this can't happen, I assure you it can. Companies will do anything that the customers allow them to get away with. Such as many people who think this is a good idea without actually thinking about the future or what this "good idea" might cause.
5)Support is a big issue. We are talking about mods. you are paying money for a product that may by all means not work at some point. When a game updates, mods tends to break. Yes, you have 24 hours to return a mod. However, 24 hours is not always the time frame mods stop working, in fact .. it rarely is. After those 24 hours, there isn't anything you can do even if the mod author stops updating their mod. Valve and Bethesda are leaving it up entirely to the mod author, and they are not responsible. Even though they are taking 75%.
Mod authors are not professionals. If they are accepting money, by all means they are obligated to make their customers happy. However, as I said .. they are not professionals. Obligations may not mean anything to them, and with Valves and Bethesda's hands off approach, the consumer is screwed if the mod author simply doesn't give a crap. They already got paid, why be bothered to deal with updating the mod or fixing bugs? There isn't any consequences for them.
6) Because there are no consequences, doesn't this also imply a lot of theft can go on too? I could go on Nexus and download a ton of mods that are no longer in development. Mod author no where to be found. I can upload it to steam workshop and charge for it. How long will it stay up before it's found out that it isn't mine? This isn't even including other IP. Can one upload a mod with iron man in it and earn money? Can someone take an asset from another game and use it in their mod? Can I use another persons mod in my own mod?
Funny thing, Valve has said something about this already. If you use another persons mod and it's free, then it's fair game. So apparently you can, if it's free according to Valve. You know why? Because they are a big company and they are not worried about some random modder trying to sue them.
Now let me point out, all of this may not turn out this bad. However, there is a lot more bad that can come from this than any good.
Espeically since we could do something similar but with donations instead that would essentially eliminate all these problems.
Pay for mods! It is here.. (mod makers only get 25%)
It was only a matter of time untill this happend, now we will start to see half made mods not made with the love of the game in intreset but financial gain.
What was wrong with the love people put in and people who appreciate and had spare funds dontaed, but that has all changed selling 100-300$ gun skins is not enough for valve, they want maybe 25% and the game company 50%? and 25% to the maker.
As a mod maker a dev can earn a bit by uploading his content, there are always people willing to pay for it.
I created some mods and it is fun to see it has been downloaded so many times. If someone is willing to pay me and Steam for it, go for it I guess. And it is not like you are forced to pay for mods anyway. There are always total free mods available, either through Steam or other sources.
Plus any player can make his own mods and distribute it for free or for own use.
exactly
basically people appear to not like the idea of giving a modder more options. they should just work for free or ask for donations.
I would like to see where this Free Market concept goes
Note: I've seen some blurbs that Valve has changed some of the terms of the setup to make it somewhat less obnoxious, but these have been my thoughts about the whole idea, regardless...
It's amazing to me, how quickly people forget that modders have been doing what they do - purely for the love of the game - for over a decade now. About 13 years now, if we're only looking at TES games.
For all that time, they've been doing their thing out of pure passion for what they're doing, for the creativity, to "give" to the community, purely because they love the game, and want to contribute to its world in some way. They haven't demanded money for it. At most, some have provided a donation button for those who'd like to do so.
Point is: Money has never been the motivation behind the time and effort they've put in... for over a decade. Think about that... because it's relevant here, and goes to a big part of why there's been backlash, not only from those who use the mods, but also from those who make them.
It wasn't the modders who said "We should have a way to sell our mods!". No one was clamoring or begging for a system like this.
No. That was Valve's move.
Out of the blue, Valve steps in and decides:
"Hey! Guys, guys guys! We had this awesome idea! You guys can sell your mods... and we'll keep 75% of what people pay! You do 100% of the work, and get 25% of the revenue! Bam! We LOVE those numbers! 75% to us is totally fair. It was our idea to sell them after all!
Now, we know no one was asking for this, and modding communites have always done what they do voluntarily, for the love of the games blah blah blah whatever... We saw an opportunity to monetize and cash in on that love and passion and, well... you know... Anyway! Isn't that cool?!".
Wait... you hear that? cha-Ching! Could that be... money calling? cha-Ching! Why, I think it is! When money calls, you know we're listenin'!
The joy of seeing people downloading, using, enjoying and even showcasing their work has been the pay-off. The ability to help expand or improve on a game/world they love has been the pay-off. The ability to learn world-building skills that could be applied to actual game projects has been a pay off.
Money has never been a motivation, and anyone who's followed the modding community over the last 13 years knows this.
Now everyone's all "Well of course the modders should get paid! Why shouldn't they? Why should anyone get to enjoy their hard work without paying them for it?!". I see people shaming those who oppose it as being "cheap" and "greedy"... as though they're completely oblivious to the fact that mods have been freely distributed for over a decade now... with the modders happily contributing. I'm not sure if it's willful ignorance, or just extremely stunted memories.
I guess some people just can't see value in something unless $$$ are involved. That's pretty sad, really.
Regardless, many people are completely missing the point here. Two points, actually.
1. Valve's move is something that no one was asking for. Has anyone here seen some huge demand coming from modders for Valve to allow them to sell their mods? I sure haven't. In fact, from what I've seen, there's been push-back by modders who don't like the idea - even some of the bigger named ones - saying that they're against it, it goes against the spirit of what the modding community has been about for over a decade, and that they will not charge for their work.
2. Look at the split. For all their time and effort... modders get 25% of the profit. Valve is keeping 75% of the earnings - without doing any of the work on the mod. They are literally cashing in on others' time and efforts. This isn't some small % they're taking for say, allowing modders to sell their stuff through Steam. No. They're taking - by far - the lion's share. Just because they decided they wanted to. That's a slap in the face.
Considering those %s... do you people seriously think Valve is doing this for the good of its modding community? No. It's an easy way for them to make more money on the backs of their fans' time and effort. They are literally monetizing the passion and talent of their modding communities. Just because. That's just awful.
I gotta agree with what someone said earlier in the thread... "so much for good guy Gabe". I used to think he and Valve were an awesome company whose focus was always on doing what they could for the benefit of their customers (releasing HL3 notwithstanding). It's certainly what Gabe has always touted. Lately, though... I dunno what's going on over there. It's almost like Bobby Kotick took over or something.
I gotta agree with what someone said earlier in the thread... "so much for good guy Gabe". I used to think he and Valve were an awesome company whose focus was always on doing what they could for the benefit of their customers (releasing HL3 notwithstanding). It's certainly what Gabe has always touted. Lately, though... I dunno what's going on over there. It's almost like Bobby Kotick took over or something.
At least Kotick/blizz gutted the RMAH after a while (probably because of sales of ROS) but still they admitted they were wrong (after a very long while). Somehow I don't see this going away. Too much free money for the shareholders.
I gotta agree with what someone said earlier in the thread... "so much for good guy Gabe". I used to think he and Valve were an awesome company whose focus was always on doing what they could for the benefit of their customers (releasing HL3 notwithstanding). It's certainly what Gabe has always touted. Lately, though... I dunno what's going on over there. It's almost like Bobby Kotick took over or something.
Yes, I agree as well. I am actually utterly shocked by this turn of events. In fact, I felt valve was the only company that wouldn't do something like this. A see a lot of people now comparing Valve to EA, and I don't think I ever thought something like that would ever happen. XD
I have always supported Valve, and they have been my favorite company in the industry for a while. However, now I am not so sure. I apparently don't know them as well as I thought I did. However, when I look back and think about some of the things Gabe has said, it makes me realize this is what he meant all along. Now I know why they have been so interested in user generated content over continuing to make games them selves. The company is now more about making as much money as possible with the least amount of effort.
People complain about the oddest of things. This a a great thing for those that dabble in modding.
25% is low but you have both Valve and Bethesda with their hands in the cookie jar ( That 75% is split between those companies ).
Or maybe it is not people complaining about the oddest things, and just you not understanding why people are complaining.
No this is odd to complain about. The creators of the mod have a choice if they wish to create it for the community for free to consume or to get paid for their work.
If you are a creator and wish to contribute freely you are able to, if you desire to see if your modding skills and time is worth something you can charge.
If you are just a consumer of mods then the choice is yours of what to do. Consume free mods without donating to the creators, donate to the creators or go with paid mods.
It wont work, people wont pay for mods. Maybe send donations to modders websites to help, but they certainly will not pay for them.
Why, well alot cease midway through, some dont work as intended, any slight patch or update can break them so they need to be updated regularly. Then there are some that are worthless.
Steam has always been about takign money, they have games that dont work on current upto systems that they sell (but their terms state they do not give refunds at all), so you buy a game and it dont work you dont get your money back, you lost it.
What I do not understand is the need for the 25/75 split.
The mods are already there, they have an innate value as is, else it would not have been.
The workshop is awesome, it sells more games I am sure, and the financial incentive is there already!
25 to valve and 75 to the creator would probably be fair as the costs incurred for distributing the money is not zero.
But as is, this is EA level of greed.
Nothing wrong with that really, EA is the devil incarnate and their business model is to collect souls.
I was just under the impression that one of the the most profitable companies on the gaming scene might find it in their hearts to not try to fuck the community.
No one there is going hungry!
Shit, this is shameful!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People complain about the oddest of things. This a a great thing for those that dabble in modding.
25% is low but you have both Valve and Bethesda with their hands in the cookie jar ( That 75% is split between those companies ).
Or maybe it is not people complaining about the oddest things, and just you not understanding why people are complaining.
No this is odd to complain about. The creators of the mod have a choice if they wish to create it for the community for free to consume or to get paid for their work.
If you are a creator and wish to contribute freely you are able to, if you desire to see if your modding skills and time is worth something you can charge.
If you are just a consumer of mods then the choice is yours of what to do. Consume free mods without donating to the creators, donate to the creators or go with paid mods.
Exactly, you just proved you don't understand why people are complaining. Maybe you should read the rest of the thread as I listed a pretty extensive list of all the problems and possible future possibilities that make this a bad idea. But good job on missing the point.
2 ...you also give up your rights on your content to Valve..
This is really serious. I don't know of any non-dev made content revenue partnership set up this way. DBG doesn't take your rights away from your own content. Its disturbing Valve does AND takes a larger cut. Make a new weapon model for Skyrim work$hop? It's legally not yours anymore.
5 Support is a big issue.
Actually there is a consequence. Mods would have to be run as a continued service and keeping it updated means keeping money trickling in. People that did buy it and suddenly the mod doesn't work anymore will be reviewing and warning everyone not to buy it. It wouldn't stop that broken mod from selling but it would dampen it.
Another thing to note is how their reviewing system works. If you buy the mod you can review it. There will be a lack of reviews on a lot of potentially bad or never updated mods. All those first time purchases aren't going to be good.
Comments
TBH Steam has already let people produce shit and charge for it with their GreenLight system.
The hysteria in this thread is not unexpected. It's quite normal for players to go ballistic if they have to face the threat of having to possibly PAY for stuff they used to get totally free...
I think it's a great idea that is a completely inevitable development. I'd expect that the original developer of the core game will get a cut of the sale price. It's their product that's being indirectly monetized, after all. Either way, they are probably happy with the extra exposure and playability it gives their games.
Charging for your mod on Steam Workshop is optional.
Steam offer a refund policy if you're not happy with the purchased mod.
I'm sure that this system will be expanded to eventually include all moddable games on Steam. It will also increase the amount of mods being made, which is only a good thing. The only downside I can see is trying to decide which mods to actually use in that catalog of 1000's of offers...
Actually they would allow mod-makers to get some money back for there hard work, but it would be logical if they want a share of it. Why would they to allow people to freely profit from there work? You can use a lot of game engines for free, but once you start to use it for a commercial product you have to start to pay. Why would this be any different for a mod? I think 25% for the mods might be a bit low, but not by much. If it would be something like this 30% for steam (standard for regular games) 45% for the game owner and 25% for the mod developer. 30-40-30 or 30-30-40 however would be fairer in my opinion.
And yes the game owner getting more would not be unfair. They mostly did most of the work, making both the base game and the tools to mod. If a mod developer dislikes that he could always decide to create a game himself (and plenty mod makers have done so in the past to start selling there game). However as a game-owner I would give mod makes a bigger share. Let's face it a good mod (and when mod makers get a decent income from it they only get better!) will increase the sale of your base game after all.
Very smart move on Steams part. A lot of good mods will become steam exclusive, meaning there income from both the mods and the games in question would increase as more people will buy the base game from steam!
If Moders would read and try to fully understand the agreements on the Steam webpage they would not list their mod for sale. The actual cut they get is 16%. Let me explain:
For illustration purpose let's take the Awesome Sword of Death and Pain (glowing) that costs $3.
They get an incredible $0.50 (16% of the $3 sale price).
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Now, don't get me wrong. I would love to have an easy way to pay moders like the steam workshop but i am not willing to line the pockets of Steam and Bethesda which both make a killing already by selling more games because of the mod community.
Skyrim would not be still in the top played games every week if not for the mod community. This is a fact.
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The potential for abuse is huge and Steam refuses to curate or put in some sort o quality control. Good luck finding quality mods when everyone spams this with textures and crap. You will be wading through hundreds of scam attempts and low quality, unfinished early access type mods all day before you find the good stuff. Skyrim already has 24,000 mods to start with.
The potential minefield with sharing mod content with other mods that share it with yet other mods. If one Moder in that chain decides to monetize it what will happen? Yeah, it's a legal nightmare waiting to happen.
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This is only the start. They are testing the waters. The next game releases will have strict EULA agreements that will only let you present your mods on Steam and not on other platforms. They will sue everyone trying to make money with their mods outside of Steam. This is going to kill the mod community.
Steam refuses to curate or quality control the mods. They do NOTHING and get 30% of the sales. If you think that is fair and is to cover their operational cost then you are delusional.
They see another big revenue stream like they did with paid Alpha, Early Access and day one DLC's without lifting a finger. This does not increase their operational cost.
Don't be fooled by the Industry shills that say stupid shit like:
"This is good, it will encourage more developers to offer mod support"
"This is great for Moders, now they can make some money"
Everyone knew already that offering mod support increases your sales by a significant number yet they still don't do it. They won't start now. Moders could already make as much money with donations because the measly 16% they get from Steam will not be more.
I will donate to Moders but i will not give them money on Steam Workshop.
You tell me it is forgivable to misspell your Job description? You got to be kidding me. I am a "busyness proffesionell" i know what i am talking about. LMAO!
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When did i say i don't know what operating costs, legal or admin costs are? You have issues reading?
Steam and Bethesda both said they will not curate or quality control the Workshop. They have no additional cost except the payment processing which is not that high. They actually only put a button there, that's it.
Steam get's 30% of the sale value for doing.... JACK SHIT!
The actual cut the Moder get's is 16%. Learn to read the Steam workshop agreements. Gotta love the armchair business professionals on forums.
/smh
Well you DID say that i do no know jack when i brought up those costs... That sort of imply that you do not exactly grasp how such concepts works as they are key in considering how to price a service.
But feel free to explain how i am wrong in assuming that those costs have a impact on how much the modder will get.?
This have been a good conversation
while i also think 25% for the modder is abit low you have to think about those points:
Valve pays for the whole infrastructure, server and so on...
The content is owned by the GAMES company, you actually can make money now as a modder by using other people work(see i turned the argument around that some greedy companies have to do nothing, they have to develop a game)
Valve could have done nothing and modders continue to get 0%.........
Overall it is a good thing and i think we will see lots of shit but also some real gems now that are 10 times cheaper than DLC's but better.
EDIT: another point is that steams offers reasons for game companies to allow fucking modsupport again like back in the days
I think i did explain in my post that the only cost Steam has is payment processing. The rest of the Workshop is already in place for quite some time. They don't have any other costs because they said themselves that they will not do anything with the workshop areas, it's hands off for them. No curation or quality control, ZERO, ZILCH, you get that?
You nit picked one sentence and ignored the rest of my post because you know i am right so with this being said there is no point further discussing this with you.
This conversation serves no purpose any more,
Good bye
Yes because creating a platform like steam just grows on tree right? Servers do not need maintenance either right? You can say that 30% is to much, but that they do jack shit? They are constantly developing, advertising, etc and that will all benefit the mod developer as well.
This is exactly what I've been saying in Nexus and some Steam groups.
They are testing the waters and hitting players hard with a bad idea. People will scream at change, overreact, and make a lot of noise.
Valve tunes it until the noise level resides, either from reluctant acceptace or simple fatigue and the generally short attention span of the internet.
Next Bethesda release: Pay for the modding tools, you may only release your mod on Steam Workshop behind a pay wall with Valvthesda taking no responsibility for bad modding.
Oh, and they've maybe forgotten to include a few nice things in their new game... but that's so the players/modders can create a it in the modding tools, then sell it (with Valvthesda taking their cut of course).
By this time they're banking on players being numb to the changes and just accepting paying for the next Unofficial Patch that fixes their game.
In case you have not noticed: THE WORKSHOP HAS BEEN FREE AND STILL IS.
So how is it suddenly costing them a lot of money to run it when it has been free for mods and has been like that for years, how is it costing them so much to add a pay button that they take 84% of the proceeds?
Just curious, explain this to me please.
/smh
Ok, here is a full list of the problems.
1) Modding is something a person tends to do simply because they like the game. They are fan and it's pretty similar to a fan making fan art. They don't typically start making mods to look for a way to earn money because they never have been able to before. This means, they start making the mods they do, without the thought of being able to earn any income from it. They do it for themselves, and the community. That is what made the community so appealing.
My point here is that now if you can earn money to do this. you are very likely to see a bunch of people hopping on board just to earn a quick buck. It will soon no longer be about the community, it will be about what is the best way to cheat people.
If you go on a modding website like Nexus mods, you will see already a modder by the name of Chesko has ran into issues and now is likely never going to mod again. The creator of one of the most popular mods has been driven out of the modding community because people feel he betrayed them. He even removed his mods off of Steam Workshop, or I should say tried. He used FNIS in his fishing mod, without permission and tried to sell it.
So essentially this has caused a lot of drama in the community already. Isoku is another modder who has been torn to shreds by the community. Everyone is now pitted against each other.
2) Paying even more money to the companies for work they have not done. We already pay for the game, pre-orders, micro-transactions, and dlc. This is just one more ways the companies are trying to take even more money while throwing people under a bus to do so.
That modder Chesko I mentioned, he can't remove the mod entirely off the workshop. Valve said they will not remove it unless he takes legal action. Something people don't realize is under the agreement for uploading your content to the workshop, you also give up your rights on your content to Valve. It states they are free to pretty much do what ever it is they wish with it. Of course this is part of the modders fault for accepting such an agreement and not reading it through properly. However, this just goes to show you ... the deal is no where as good as it seems.
Anyone who thinks the 75% cut is fair is also kidding themselves. It's not fair in the least bit, and NO steams store costs are not going to cost 75% of the damned profits. That is simply silly.
3) Mods added value to games. If you could mod a game, it made the game seem a lot better because you could alter it to suit the way you like to play your game. Charging for mods, destroys that. It no longer adds value, it takes away from it, because now you are being charged even more money. So for the general consumer this isn't a good thing, unless you simply don't care to throw your money at companies without a second thought. I play with about 100 mods on Skyrim. Now imagine if all of them costed money.
Now of course, this is being slightly unrealistic since of course not all mod authors are going to charge money, which bring me to the fourth point.
4) Let's say companies see this as a good idea. They can now make money off of other peoples work. Who is to say they will not release their games with modding tools that you can only use if you release and go through their store? Meaning this can cause a domino effect. A future where all mods are now paid for. The modding community would no longer be a community, it would be a business. If you think something like this can't happen, I assure you it can. Companies will do anything that the customers allow them to get away with. Such as many people who think this is a good idea without actually thinking about the future or what this "good idea" might cause.
5)Support is a big issue. We are talking about mods. you are paying money for a product that may by all means not work at some point. When a game updates, mods tends to break. Yes, you have 24 hours to return a mod. However, 24 hours is not always the time frame mods stop working, in fact .. it rarely is. After those 24 hours, there isn't anything you can do even if the mod author stops updating their mod. Valve and Bethesda are leaving it up entirely to the mod author, and they are not responsible. Even though they are taking 75%.
Mod authors are not professionals. If they are accepting money, by all means they are obligated to make their customers happy. However, as I said .. they are not professionals. Obligations may not mean anything to them, and with Valves and Bethesda's hands off approach, the consumer is screwed if the mod author simply doesn't give a crap. They already got paid, why be bothered to deal with updating the mod or fixing bugs? There isn't any consequences for them.
6) Because there are no consequences, doesn't this also imply a lot of theft can go on too? I could go on Nexus and download a ton of mods that are no longer in development. Mod author no where to be found. I can upload it to steam workshop and charge for it. How long will it stay up before it's found out that it isn't mine? This isn't even including other IP. Can one upload a mod with iron man in it and earn money? Can someone take an asset from another game and use it in their mod? Can I use another persons mod in my own mod?
Funny thing, Valve has said something about this already. If you use another persons mod and it's free, then it's fair game. So apparently you can, if it's free according to Valve. You know why? Because they are a big company and they are not worried about some random modder trying to sue them.
Now let me point out, all of this may not turn out this bad. However, there is a lot more bad that can come from this than any good.
Espeically since we could do something similar but with donations instead that would essentially eliminate all these problems.
Note: I've seen some blurbs that Valve has changed some of the terms of the setup to make it somewhat less obnoxious, but these have been my thoughts about the whole idea, regardless...
It's amazing to me, how quickly people forget that modders have been doing what they do - purely for the love of the game - for over a decade now. About 13 years now, if we're only looking at TES games.
For all that time, they've been doing their thing out of pure passion for what they're doing, for the creativity, to "give" to the community, purely because they love the game, and want to contribute to its world in some way. They haven't demanded money for it. At most, some have provided a donation button for those who'd like to do so.
Point is: Money has never been the motivation behind the time and effort they've put in... for over a decade. Think about that... because it's relevant here, and goes to a big part of why there's been backlash, not only from those who use the mods, but also from those who make them.
It wasn't the modders who said "We should have a way to sell our mods!". No one was clamoring or begging for a system like this.
No. That was Valve's move.
Out of the blue, Valve steps in and decides:
"Hey! Guys, guys guys! We had this awesome idea! You guys can sell your mods... and we'll keep 75% of what people pay! You do 100% of the work, and get 25% of the revenue! Bam! We LOVE those numbers! 75% to us is totally fair. It was our idea to sell them after all!
Now, we know no one was asking for this, and modding communites have always done what they do voluntarily, for the love of the games blah blah blah whatever... We saw an opportunity to monetize and cash in on that love and passion and, well... you know... Anyway! Isn't that cool?!".
Wait... you hear that? cha-Ching! Could that be... money calling? cha-Ching! Why, I think it is! When money calls, you know we're listenin'!
The joy of seeing people downloading, using, enjoying and even showcasing their work has been the pay-off. The ability to help expand or improve on a game/world they love has been the pay-off. The ability to learn world-building skills that could be applied to actual game projects has been a pay off.
Money has never been a motivation, and anyone who's followed the modding community over the last 13 years knows this.
Now everyone's all "Well of course the modders should get paid! Why shouldn't they? Why should anyone get to enjoy their hard work without paying them for it?!". I see people shaming those who oppose it as being "cheap" and "greedy"... as though they're completely oblivious to the fact that mods have been freely distributed for over a decade now... with the modders happily contributing. I'm not sure if it's willful ignorance, or just extremely stunted memories.
I guess some people just can't see value in something unless $$$ are involved. That's pretty sad, really.
Regardless, many people are completely missing the point here. Two points, actually.
1. Valve's move is something that no one was asking for. Has anyone here seen some huge demand coming from modders for Valve to allow them to sell their mods? I sure haven't. In fact, from what I've seen, there's been push-back by modders who don't like the idea - even some of the bigger named ones - saying that they're against it, it goes against the spirit of what the modding community has been about for over a decade, and that they will not charge for their work.
2. Look at the split. For all their time and effort... modders get 25% of the profit. Valve is keeping 75% of the earnings - without doing any of the work on the mod. They are literally cashing in on others' time and efforts. This isn't some small % they're taking for say, allowing modders to sell their stuff through Steam. No. They're taking - by far - the lion's share. Just because they decided they wanted to. That's a slap in the face.
Considering those %s... do you people seriously think Valve is doing this for the good of its modding community? No. It's an easy way for them to make more money on the backs of their fans' time and effort. They are literally monetizing the passion and talent of their modding communities. Just because. That's just awful.
I gotta agree with what someone said earlier in the thread... "so much for good guy Gabe". I used to think he and Valve were an awesome company whose focus was always on doing what they could for the benefit of their customers (releasing HL3 notwithstanding). It's certainly what Gabe has always touted. Lately, though... I dunno what's going on over there. It's almost like Bobby Kotick took over or something.
At least Kotick/blizz gutted the RMAH after a while (probably because of sales of ROS) but still they admitted they were wrong (after a very long while). Somehow I don't see this going away. Too much free money for the shareholders.
People complain about the oddest of things. This a a great thing for those that dabble in modding.
25% is low but you have both Valve and Bethesda with their hands in the cookie jar ( That 75% is split between those companies ).
Yes, I agree as well. I am actually utterly shocked by this turn of events. In fact, I felt valve was the only company that wouldn't do something like this. A see a lot of people now comparing Valve to EA, and I don't think I ever thought something like that would ever happen. XD
I have always supported Valve, and they have been my favorite company in the industry for a while. However, now I am not so sure. I apparently don't know them as well as I thought I did. However, when I look back and think about some of the things Gabe has said, it makes me realize this is what he meant all along. Now I know why they have been so interested in user generated content over continuing to make games them selves. The company is now more about making as much money as possible with the least amount of effort.
Or maybe it is not people complaining about the oddest things, and just you not understanding why people are complaining.
No this is odd to complain about. The creators of the mod have a choice if they wish to create it for the community for free to consume or to get paid for their work.
If you are a creator and wish to contribute freely you are able to, if you desire to see if your modding skills and time is worth something you can charge.
If you are just a consumer of mods then the choice is yours of what to do. Consume free mods without donating to the creators, donate to the creators or go with paid mods.
It wont work, people wont pay for mods. Maybe send donations to modders websites to help, but they certainly will not pay for them.
Why, well alot cease midway through, some dont work as intended, any slight patch or update can break them so they need to be updated regularly. Then there are some that are worthless.
Steam has always been about takign money, they have games that dont work on current upto systems that they sell (but their terms state they do not give refunds at all), so you buy a game and it dont work you dont get your money back, you lost it.
And we're absolutely sure that this initiative was purely Steam's idea ?
Anyone have proof that it wasn't Bethesda who persuaded Steam to try this little experiment ?
Do not see a problem with them charging for mods.
What I do not understand is the need for the 25/75 split.
The mods are already there, they have an innate value as is, else it would not have been.
The workshop is awesome, it sells more games I am sure, and the financial incentive is there already!
25 to valve and 75 to the creator would probably be fair as the costs incurred for distributing the money is not zero.
But as is, this is EA level of greed.
Nothing wrong with that really, EA is the devil incarnate and their business model is to collect souls.
I was just under the impression that one of the the most profitable companies on the gaming scene might find it in their hearts to not try to fuck the community.
No one there is going hungry!
Shit, this is shameful!
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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Exactly, you just proved you don't understand why people are complaining. Maybe you should read the rest of the thread as I listed a pretty extensive list of all the problems and possible future possibilities that make this a bad idea. But good job on missing the point.
Good post, Brabbit.
2 ...you also give up your rights on your content to Valve..
This is really serious. I don't know of any non-dev made content revenue partnership set up this way. DBG doesn't take your rights away from your own content. Its disturbing Valve does AND takes a larger cut. Make a new weapon model for Skyrim work$hop? It's legally not yours anymore.
5 Support is a big issue.
Actually there is a consequence. Mods would have to be run as a continued service and keeping it updated means keeping money trickling in. People that did buy it and suddenly the mod doesn't work anymore will be reviewing and warning everyone not to buy it. It wouldn't stop that broken mod from selling but it would dampen it.
Another thing to note is how their reviewing system works. If you buy the mod you can review it. There will be a lack of reviews on a lot of potentially bad or never updated mods. All those first time purchases aren't going to be good.