But XIV is one of the least grindy mmos on the market currently.
Talk about a matter of opinion lol. If FFXIV is not the epitome of a grindfest mmo I don't know what is.
Exactly, last time i checked all you do is grind tokens, repeat old content ad nauseam for relics and spirit bond grind for materia.
And, you take the grind out of a game but make it long lived how? And, of course, there's raiding, new content always added, playing Triple Triad, racing Chocobos, breeding Chocobos, crafting, gathering, leveling alt classes, side quests, FATEs, etc.
If all you concentrate on is "How do I make myself the strongest", of course it's a grind. The game isn't handing you anything. The relic weapon is anti-raid weapon - designed specifically to be challenging to get for people who don't want to raid but have a raid tier weapon. You literally cannot make that thing based on skill because the people who have the skill required got the equivalent in a raid.
Tokens? Just a way to make sure you get the equipment you want. It would either be to grind tokens or grind gil either way.
And, spirit bond grinding is totally your choice.
And, I'll say it again, at this point, just making your character take three steps is considered a grind. FATEs? Grinding because you are doing them even if you are battling different things. Crafting? Grind even when making different things. Gathering? Grind even when gathering different things. Side quests? Grind because you are talking, delivering, and battling in a row. Dungeons? Grind because you played it once and are doing it again. Levellig alts? Grind because you are doing FATEs, Guildhsts, levequests, dungeons, actions.
If you feel like you are stuck grinding, why not do something else?
It doesn't matter what they add, they aren't going to have you get everything your first go of it - that's just rdiculous. Anyone going into an MMORPG should know this.
I'm really starting to get the feeling that people conider playing a game that requires you to, you know, do stuff as grindy. I had to go to NPC to NPC for a story! Grind! I had to fight monsters in a row! I had to do a dungeon! Grind! I had to level! Grind! I had to make my character walk three steps! God damn it, this game is grindy as hell!
Seriously, what isn't a grind people?
They fail to realize that that "grind" IS the game. This . is . an . MMORPG! Go play an FPS or MOBA if you don't want a grind. These types of threads make me want to scream ... GET THE HELL OUT OF THE GENRE, YOUR GAME IS THATA WAY ---->
You have messed up this genre enough already. It is a shambles because of your mentality of "too grindy," "too many quests," "no challenge," "no PvP this or that." Go away and leave it be already!"
I have to disagree with you, games like swtor and tsw avoid the grind by either disguising the fed ex quests or by having less of them, Lotro has many fed ex quests but because of the lore you do not feel them so much. The first 15 lvls of ff14 were filled to the unhappy brim with fed ex quests just a nightmare
Disguising? According to whom? A grind is a grind is a grind. We all define what a 'grind" is differently. But make no mistake, the grind is there. Why? Because "grinding" is the core concept of an MMORPG. How do you, otherwise, stretch a journey in a game if you don't have a "grind." And if it doesn't have a journey, it is simply an FPS or a MOBA, not an MMORPG.
As has been mentioned before, "grind" is very subjective. What is "a grind" to one player may not be "a grind" to another. As a matter of fact, there are players that love a "grind," and others, such as myself, that neither love it or hate it. We simply understand that a "grind" is a fundamental game mechanic associated with an MMORPG. In other words, if you are going to play an MMORPG, you should expect a "grind." Because without a grind, there is no journey. You develop your character through the grind experienced in your journey. Again, anything else is not an MMORPG ... its some form of MOBA or FPS.
A journey, in the context of an MMORPG, was never intended to last two or three days, or even a month or six months. When MMORPGs were initially conceptualized, people spent years before getting to cap. Today, gamers expect to be able to level to cap in two or three days at which time they can begin playing their FPS. To them the game "begins" at end game. Everything before is just a huge inconvenience. And they complain if it takes them more than a week to "grind" to cap. God forbid it should take a month or more to get to cap. There will be moaning and groaning until XP gets nerfed to oblivion, and the player base is awarded free 50x XP weekends as a consolation prize and apology for having been subjected to those two to three weeks of painful "grinding." But I digress ... this ship has sailed and is simply just not worth discussing anymore
Sounds like you just don't like games with questing as the primary form of gaining XP though.
It depends on the player - you can certainly play MMORPGs without grinding.
I mean you can just log in, stay in one place and chat with others - zero grind.
How is that classed as "playing an MMORPG"?
He was being sarcastic. Meaning "grind" is subjective.
This game does have an issue with a lack of content. People defend it because it has an incredible variety of content, and almost all of it is very well done to the point of making up the difference.
WoW when I was playing had about 3000 quests... my understanding is that it is past 15000 now (using WoWhead). Daily quests are included mind you (included once). When I checked this game had ~1200 quests, including lots and lots of leves. The leve system is there to make level grinding a bit quicker, and it really needs a lot more fleshing out.
The non leve quests in Final Fantasy are excellently written with characters that have personality. Many parts of each quest are "animated" and it really does add to the experience. They are usually involved and very obviously well thought out. The leve quests on the other hand are clearly written without the same care, as they are just grinding fodder.
Adding to the feeling of grind is the small world map (going to be worked on in the expansion, but only for your lvl 50+ characters). For each class you want to level up, you do the same leves and fates in the same places over and over.
This game has some really great content, a beautiful and immersive world, quests that are interesting. It just needs more of it all. Levelling up in an MMORPG should be like reading a book, you experience a story or adventure and by the end your character has grown. This game seems to consider the levelling process and the story/adventure quite separate from each other, and I wish it didn't.
I resubbed a few days ago because I really do like the game, but I am already getting annoyed by the 5 level grind between my class quests. The lack of content may be this games biggest flaw. I was really really hoping that the expansion would also be adding fates, quests, and leves to old areas. I still hope it will.
To end on a positive note, I want to point out that I am one of the people from my first paragraph that would say the games quality content makes up for its lack of content. I really love questing in this game.
Sounds like you just don't like games with questing as the primary form of gaining XP though.
It depends on the player - you can certainly play MMORPGs without grinding.
I mean you can just log in, stay in one place and chat with others - zero grind.
How is that classed as "playing an MMORPG"?
He was being sarcastic. Meaning "grind" is subjective.
This game does have an issue with a lack of content. People defend it because it has an incredible variety of content, and almost all of it is very well done to the point of making up the difference.
WoW when I was playing had about 3000 quests... my understanding is that it is past 15000 now (using WoWhead). Daily quests are included mind you (included once). When I checked this game had ~1200 quests, including lots and lots of leves. The leve system is there to make level grinding a bit quicker, and it really needs a lot more fleshing out.
The non leve quests in Final Fantasy are excellently written with characters that have personality. Many parts of each quest are "animated" and it really does add to the experience. They are usually involved and very obviously well thought out. The leve quests on the other hand are clearly written without the same care, as they are just grinding fodder.
Adding to the feeling of grind is the small world map (going to be worked on in the expansion, but only for your lvl 50+ characters). For each class you want to level up, you do the same leves and fates in the same places over and over.
This game has some really great content, a beautiful and immersive world, quests that are interesting. It just needs more of it all. Levelling up in an MMORPG should be like reading a book, you experience a story or adventure and by the end your character has grown. This game seems to consider the levelling process and the story/adventure quite separate from each other, and I wish it didn't.
I resubbed a few days ago because I really do like the game, but I am already getting annoyed by the 5 level grind between my class quests. The lack of content may be this games biggest flaw. I was really really hoping that the expansion would also be adding fates, quests, and leves to old areas. I still hope it will.
To end on a positive note, I want to point out that I am one of the people from my first paragraph that would say the games quality content makes up for its lack of content. I really love questing in this game.
Honestly, there is a very easy way to fix some of the problem: class based side quests. The side quests we see in this game can be picked up at any time, great but it also means that most players do it on their first class. The story is sufficient for the first class with FATEs, leves, guildhests, and the hunting logue to help it along.
Other than tt, the levelling and story/adventure are not considered separate - it's just, what more can they actually do? This isn't like other games where you are doing alts so quests basically reset for you. You are doing this on one character. People I talk to don't seem to understand this. When everything is on one character than there's no way that the game can keep up with the full levelling process. Even class based side quests would be a small percentile - though helpful because you don't waste them on other classes - because the main scenario has to be worthwhile, dungeons need to be run, FATEs have to be played, and leves done.
The main problem is that you have an alt mindset - new character in the world - rather than a single mindset - alt classes but the progression is done by one guy. It's not so much a lack of content as much as impossible to make up the difference completely without grinding. They even have an exprience bonus for this.
Honestly, there is a very easy way to fix some of the problem: class based side quests. The side quests we see in this game can be picked up at any time, great but it also means that most players do it on their first class. The story is sufficient for the first class with FATEs, leves, guildhests, and the hunting logue to help it along.
Other than tt, the levelling and story/adventure are not considered separate - it's just, what more can they actually do? This isn't like other games where you are doing alts so quests basically reset for you. You are doing this on one character. People I talk to don't seem to understand this. When everything is on one character than there's no way that the game can keep up with the full levelling process. Even class based side quests would be a small percentile - though helpful because you don't waste them on other classes - because the main scenario has to be worthwhile, dungeons need to be run, FATEs have to be played, and leves done.
The main problem is that you have an alt mindset - new character in the world - rather than a single mindset - alt classes but the progression is done by one guy. It's not so much a lack of content as much as impossible to make up the difference completely without grinding. They even have an exprience bonus for this.
I tried to only do quests in the limsa lominsa zones for my first character but it was just not possible. I ended up doing leves and then giving in and questing in the other zones as well. Then I still ended up doing some leves. This was in addition to dungeons and fates, though I did not grind the fates.
Not to say that I considered levelling my first class a grind, I thoroughly enjoyed all of it. It is just that there needs to be more. There should be at least twice as many quests for a PvE based game like this. It isn't an alt mindset, there are just not enough quests, period.
I also noticed I made a mistake, I meant there were 3000 quests when I STARTED playing WoW torwards the end of vanilla. I understand not every game can have that kind of content, but even a little mobile MMORPG I play from time to time has over 700 quests, and they are surprisingly well written.
The class based side quests would be a good idea to implement, but if they are too numerous it could become a hassle swapping through your classes seeing if you missed any quest in an area. Maybe give each class quests in just their area. That could be a lot of work, but just having a new quest every couple of levels would really move things along, especially if they keep the high quality of their other real quests.
I think the easiest solution for me would be if they upped the number of fates. Right now you will see the same fates many many times each as you level through an area. I think throwing more fates in periodically would keep the areas feeling way more fresh. The fates are certainly light on story, so I feel like adding more should be an easy task.
Or maybe it would be easier to do more work on the leve system. It would be difficult to make them tell a good story with the "job posting board" way that they work right now, but that is something I would like to see. Maybe they could add more things to mix it up. Right now the best thing about leves for me is seeing a reward I actually need, or a chest, or a bounty. Maybe they could find a way to add some more randomness to the leve system to keep it feeling fresh.
Another thought, they could expand the hunting log. Right now it is bare bones and simple, but it could be a source of questing as well. Little pieces about every animal like it is a journal, helping to add to the lore. Add rare mobs to it that only have one up at a time, others that only spawn under certain conditions. Make nocturnal mobs. Give the player more to stay occupied with.
Once again the key thing is I just want more of it all. I know that is what expansions are all about, and I hope that this expac has some content for the lower levels in it as well.
It seems like I find myself wanting more content from asian MMORPGs pretty darn often.
But XIV is one of the least grindy mmos on the market currently. Far less then WoW or any of the other mainstream themeparks. Everything is more or less handed to you in XIV, except vanity gear... that shit is a hellish grind.
I've actually thought about what made me stop playing Final Fantasy XIV after playing it for a year and really, it's not grinding that is the problem. Namely, it's the standard MMO decay of the human element that occurs as an mmo is out for longer periods of time that Blizzard discovered while we were all too busy arguing about how raid content was getting too easy. To be blunt, people change based upon how long they have been playing an MMO, and it doesn't matter how generous or open minded they can be.
One example is with team operated dungeon fights: When the MMO is new, everyone is still learning and incredibly acomodating to others, but once they all reach end game and have been playing for months, patience wears thin and everyone starts doing dungeons more for the currency and metagame than for the enjoyment of the ride. End game raids are exactly the same, it's just that thanks to difficulty this situation happens at a slower rate.
Then you have the market, which morphs as people get more experienced and learn how it operates. Quests give a set amount of funds based on the initial condition of the market, but they don't keep up with inflation that occurs naturally as a game progresses, as there is always more money coming into the game than being expended. Most new players basically can't afford anything on the market when they start out later because the currency they get from doing quests is only adequate for the "frozen in time" npc price structure, which seperates them from the community further.
Finally, we have the expansion problem: Once an expansion hits, unless someone has prepped themselves up and are ready for the next wave, they are going to be playing catch up with the community just as if they were starting from ground zero. Devs typically try to streamline this process, but I've yet to see one game (including WoW) get a system implemented that actually works.
This and the thought of rabid schedule keeping for end game raids has kept me from stepping back into playing Realm Reborn, even with the encroaching expansion. Heck, the expansion makes me even less inclined to want to join back in.
Comments
And, you take the grind out of a game but make it long lived how? And, of course, there's raiding, new content always added, playing Triple Triad, racing Chocobos, breeding Chocobos, crafting, gathering, leveling alt classes, side quests, FATEs, etc.
If all you concentrate on is "How do I make myself the strongest", of course it's a grind. The game isn't handing you anything. The relic weapon is anti-raid weapon - designed specifically to be challenging to get for people who don't want to raid but have a raid tier weapon. You literally cannot make that thing based on skill because the people who have the skill required got the equivalent in a raid.
Tokens? Just a way to make sure you get the equipment you want. It would either be to grind tokens or grind gil either way.
And, spirit bond grinding is totally your choice.
And, I'll say it again, at this point, just making your character take three steps is considered a grind. FATEs? Grinding because you are doing them even if you are battling different things. Crafting? Grind even when making different things. Gathering? Grind even when gathering different things. Side quests? Grind because you are talking, delivering, and battling in a row. Dungeons? Grind because you played it once and are doing it again. Levellig alts? Grind because you are doing FATEs, Guildhsts, levequests, dungeons, actions.
If you feel like you are stuck grinding, why not do something else?
It doesn't matter what they add, they aren't going to have you get everything your first go of it - that's just rdiculous. Anyone going into an MMORPG should know this.
Disguising? According to whom? A grind is a grind is a grind. We all define what a 'grind" is differently. But make no mistake, the grind is there. Why? Because "grinding" is the core concept of an MMORPG. How do you, otherwise, stretch a journey in a game if you don't have a "grind." And if it doesn't have a journey, it is simply an FPS or a MOBA, not an MMORPG.
As has been mentioned before, "grind" is very subjective. What is "a grind" to one player may not be "a grind" to another. As a matter of fact, there are players that love a "grind," and others, such as myself, that neither love it or hate it. We simply understand that a "grind" is a fundamental game mechanic associated with an MMORPG. In other words, if you are going to play an MMORPG, you should expect a "grind." Because without a grind, there is no journey. You develop your character through the grind experienced in your journey. Again, anything else is not an MMORPG ... its some form of MOBA or FPS.
A journey, in the context of an MMORPG, was never intended to last two or three days, or even a month or six months. When MMORPGs were initially conceptualized, people spent years before getting to cap. Today, gamers expect to be able to level to cap in two or three days at which time they can begin playing their FPS. To them the game "begins" at end game. Everything before is just a huge inconvenience. And they complain if it takes them more than a week to "grind" to cap. God forbid it should take a month or more to get to cap. There will be moaning and groaning until XP gets nerfed to oblivion, and the player base is awarded free 50x XP weekends as a consolation prize and apology for having been subjected to those two to three weeks of painful "grinding." But I digress ... this ship has sailed and is simply just not worth discussing anymore
How is that classed as "playing an MMORPG"?
He was being sarcastic. Meaning "grind" is subjective.
This game does have an issue with a lack of content. People defend it because it has an incredible variety of content, and almost all of it is very well done to the point of making up the difference.
WoW when I was playing had about 3000 quests... my understanding is that it is past 15000 now (using WoWhead). Daily quests are included mind you (included once). When I checked this game had ~1200 quests, including lots and lots of leves. The leve system is there to make level grinding a bit quicker, and it really needs a lot more fleshing out.
The non leve quests in Final Fantasy are excellently written with characters that have personality. Many parts of each quest are "animated" and it really does add to the experience. They are usually involved and very obviously well thought out. The leve quests on the other hand are clearly written without the same care, as they are just grinding fodder.
Adding to the feeling of grind is the small world map (going to be worked on in the expansion, but only for your lvl 50+ characters). For each class you want to level up, you do the same leves and fates in the same places over and over.
This game has some really great content, a beautiful and immersive world, quests that are interesting. It just needs more of it all. Levelling up in an MMORPG should be like reading a book, you experience a story or adventure and by the end your character has grown. This game seems to consider the levelling process and the story/adventure quite separate from each other, and I wish it didn't.
I resubbed a few days ago because I really do like the game, but I am already getting annoyed by the 5 level grind between my class quests. The lack of content may be this games biggest flaw. I was really really hoping that the expansion would also be adding fates, quests, and leves to old areas. I still hope it will.
To end on a positive note, I want to point out that I am one of the people from my first paragraph that would say the games quality content makes up for its lack of content. I really love questing in this game.
Honestly, there is a very easy way to fix some of the problem: class based side quests. The side quests we see in this game can be picked up at any time, great but it also means that most players do it on their first class. The story is sufficient for the first class with FATEs, leves, guildhests, and the hunting logue to help it along.
Other than tt, the levelling and story/adventure are not considered separate - it's just, what more can they actually do? This isn't like other games where you are doing alts so quests basically reset for you. You are doing this on one character. People I talk to don't seem to understand this. When everything is on one character than there's no way that the game can keep up with the full levelling process. Even class based side quests would be a small percentile - though helpful because you don't waste them on other classes - because the main scenario has to be worthwhile, dungeons need to be run, FATEs have to be played, and leves done.
The main problem is that you have an alt mindset - new character in the world - rather than a single mindset - alt classes but the progression is done by one guy. It's not so much a lack of content as much as impossible to make up the difference completely without grinding. They even have an exprience bonus for this.
I tried to only do quests in the limsa lominsa zones for my first character but it was just not possible. I ended up doing leves and then giving in and questing in the other zones as well. Then I still ended up doing some leves. This was in addition to dungeons and fates, though I did not grind the fates.
Not to say that I considered levelling my first class a grind, I thoroughly enjoyed all of it. It is just that there needs to be more. There should be at least twice as many quests for a PvE based game like this. It isn't an alt mindset, there are just not enough quests, period.
I also noticed I made a mistake, I meant there were 3000 quests when I STARTED playing WoW torwards the end of vanilla. I understand not every game can have that kind of content, but even a little mobile MMORPG I play from time to time has over 700 quests, and they are surprisingly well written.
The class based side quests would be a good idea to implement, but if they are too numerous it could become a hassle swapping through your classes seeing if you missed any quest in an area. Maybe give each class quests in just their area. That could be a lot of work, but just having a new quest every couple of levels would really move things along, especially if they keep the high quality of their other real quests.
I think the easiest solution for me would be if they upped the number of fates. Right now you will see the same fates many many times each as you level through an area. I think throwing more fates in periodically would keep the areas feeling way more fresh. The fates are certainly light on story, so I feel like adding more should be an easy task.
Or maybe it would be easier to do more work on the leve system. It would be difficult to make them tell a good story with the "job posting board" way that they work right now, but that is something I would like to see. Maybe they could add more things to mix it up. Right now the best thing about leves for me is seeing a reward I actually need, or a chest, or a bounty. Maybe they could find a way to add some more randomness to the leve system to keep it feeling fresh.
Another thought, they could expand the hunting log. Right now it is bare bones and simple, but it could be a source of questing as well. Little pieces about every animal like it is a journal, helping to add to the lore. Add rare mobs to it that only have one up at a time, others that only spawn under certain conditions. Make nocturnal mobs. Give the player more to stay occupied with.
Once again the key thing is I just want more of it all. I know that is what expansions are all about, and I hope that this expac has some content for the lower levels in it as well.
It seems like I find myself wanting more content from asian MMORPGs pretty darn often.
Exactly, it is what it is. Grindy. Why try to play jedi mind tricks on people? Call it what it is and don't apologize for it.
I've actually thought about what made me stop playing Final Fantasy XIV after playing it for a year and really, it's not grinding that is the problem. Namely, it's the standard MMO decay of the human element that occurs as an mmo is out for longer periods of time that Blizzard discovered while we were all too busy arguing about how raid content was getting too easy. To be blunt, people change based upon how long they have been playing an MMO, and it doesn't matter how generous or open minded they can be.
One example is with team operated dungeon fights: When the MMO is new, everyone is still learning and incredibly acomodating to others, but once they all reach end game and have been playing for months, patience wears thin and everyone starts doing dungeons more for the currency and metagame than for the enjoyment of the ride. End game raids are exactly the same, it's just that thanks to difficulty this situation happens at a slower rate.
Then you have the market, which morphs as people get more experienced and learn how it operates. Quests give a set amount of funds based on the initial condition of the market, but they don't keep up with inflation that occurs naturally as a game progresses, as there is always more money coming into the game than being expended. Most new players basically can't afford anything on the market when they start out later because the currency they get from doing quests is only adequate for the "frozen in time" npc price structure, which seperates them from the community further.
Finally, we have the expansion problem: Once an expansion hits, unless someone has prepped themselves up and are ready for the next wave, they are going to be playing catch up with the community just as if they were starting from ground zero. Devs typically try to streamline this process, but I've yet to see one game (including WoW) get a system implemented that actually works.
This and the thought of rabid schedule keeping for end game raids has kept me from stepping back into playing Realm Reborn, even with the encroaching expansion. Heck, the expansion makes me even less inclined to want to join back in.