I can't make up my mind about your idea thaihouse.
On first reading I liked the thought - I think there's a lot to be said for starting from scratch and shaping your own character. But I also think you have to draw the line somewhere because, aside from the programming difficulty, it would be a hugely time-consuming game.
Don't get me wrong, I pack in plenty of hours playing MMORPG's, but not nearly as much as the real hardcore players. I just think I'd get totally left behind because the game would be disproportionately rewarding for the amount of time spent. Or of course you could pay to learn, or pay for important recipes, but then aren't we back in the position that caused the debate, with too-much-time-on-their-hands-crafters ruling the game?
Like I said there's lots of appealing aspects of your game though - good point!
I think crafting is fine. I have never spent a lot of my own time crafting, but others in the various guilds I've been in have asked for certain items, and if while in the course of adventuring I come across those items, I take them and give them to the crafter.
Unless you don't want to have any affiliation with anyone else in the game you play and want to be left alone, I'm not sure why anyone would be against crafting.
I love the choice that crafting gives me. I can be in game with my friends and making something beautiful without that "just sitting aroung" feeling. I can wear what I make and be proud of it. It's a roleplaying thing.
SWG (it was better before the changes) had one of the better crafting systems, IMHO. I had never seen a game that allowed so many options as far as color. I really hate games where everyone looks exactly alike as if they were pressed out of a cookie mold.
Of course, it doesn't appeal to everyone but those who don't like it can usually quest, or buy (NPC or PC) items. Power levellers will hate crafting mainly because it's only the end of the game that matters, not the journey that you take in getting there. RPers, on the other hand, want the added challenge.
In closing, my husband tried DDO and I wouldn't even get into it. There's a game for non-crafters, those players can have it. Personally, I think there was a chance to have a fantastic gaming experience in DDO but after watching my hubby stress test and actually say he didn't want to buy the game (a hard core D&Der), I can't help thinking that someone missed the boat by not having crafting.
games without crafting are missing out on a lot of benefits; an in game ecconomy, customisation, immersion in the world, greater pc interaction.
A lot of this harks back to the class v skill debate. A game is much the better if you have the freedom to skill in crafting (certainly more rewarding than a class craft system). Project Entropia got it right.
To be honest i hated crafting but when i actually spent the time and EFFORT required to become one of the best at it in SWG (PRE CU) it was rewarding. It helped me interact with many people in my guild which otherwise i wouldn't have met, not to mention make contacts with all the resource gatherers whom i made many friends out of and not to mention the buzz you used to get by trying to make items, food, armor etc better then the other crafters.
If you have a MMORPG which concentrates to much on the combat side of things and neglects crafting and offers nothing but a loot based economy it lacks depth and players will eventually leave the game looking for something else. To make a complete MMORPG ,which none of the current crop of games out there for me do, you need to take in account everyones playing styles some people love crafting and all things associated with it others don't and often stick with combat.
WOW for me has done alot of things right with the combat pvp and pve but beyond that its lame, the crafting is way to simple and too much reliance on loot to make some of the items. The best crafting system i have seen and i hate to say it much as i hate SOE/LA was SWG's pre-cu before they dumbed it down. Simply put you neglect crafting and have a loot based economy your game lacks depth and although you could have the best combat instances and content eventually people will start looking for something else to do and if your game can't offer it they will leave.
Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200
I believe that crafting is absolutely necessary for a MMOG to have a true player economy. I truely enjoy crafting and to those who complain about crafting being a grind, well isn't that what most combat becomes? I feel that having crafters and crafting being an integral part of the game will extend the amount of time people will play the game. If the game is all about leveling your character up to an arbitrary level then thats all you do and once you reach that level you find another game to play. But when crafting is important then building a business can become your new goal, and when players set their own goals they will play the game for much longer. If SWG had not drastically changed I would still be playing it now, but since it did change I am currently playing WoW while looking for a game with a better crafting system.
FROM ARTICLE: I have a rather unpopular confession to make I hate crafting. Primarily, I hate having to rely on other players for 'the best' items in a game where I cannot compete without them. It can drive the economy crazy because greedy gatherers charge whatever they want for their recourses, and crafters pass that extra expense, along with their own need for greed, along to me, the poor sap who need weapons, armor, bullets, guns, etc. Frequently, the crafter is the gatherer, meaning they answer to no one but themselves. Next thing I know, I have to farm for 2 days to make enough gold to buy a piece of armor that will last maybe 2 levels!
These are valid complaints but, as has been said, they result from an inherrant flaw in most MMORPG economies. The resources that are endlessly gathered are just time sinks and randomly respawn. This is what lets anyone with enough time get tons of it. The only thing required is time.
Also it has been said that crafting is boring. I say let NPCs do the harvesting/crafting and let players manage it, but make it so that they can't run such an operation alone without reliance on others. In this way they can't charge exorbiant prices. The economy isn't circular enough. It gets out of balance.
What if it was the players out there bashing the monsters that got the resources. They need the crafters to make the stuff, but the crafters need the other players to gather the stuff. And not just those players that have the time, but those that have the SKILLS. There should be many componants that can't be had without the right set of skills. Some would come off monsters so only those fighters that can kill them get those resources. Some items might require time sinks, but others would require certain skills, even magical/theif type skills etc. In this way every type of character would have the means to harvest some resources and so they would have a say in what they prices would be.
The problem is that they divide things too much. The non-crafters have nothing to do with the crafting process except they need the stuff. The crafters don't need anything from the non-crafters except their money. make them mutually dependant.
Note: Level based items also hurt economies by making certain items useless as the player base becomes more top heavy.
This post is really random for me. I guess it's because I'm so dang HUNGRY right now.
Comments
k so far the problem i have seen all you guy posting about with crafting i think have been addressed and corrected in vangaurd
so if you do like the crafting element you might want to look it up
I can't make up my mind about your idea thaihouse.
On first reading I liked the thought - I think there's a lot to be said for starting from scratch and shaping your own character. But I also think you have to draw the line somewhere because, aside from the programming difficulty, it would be a hugely time-consuming game.
Don't get me wrong, I pack in plenty of hours playing MMORPG's, but not nearly as much as the real hardcore players. I just think I'd get totally left behind because the game would be disproportionately rewarding for the amount of time spent. Or of course you could pay to learn, or pay for important recipes, but then aren't we back in the position that caused the debate, with too-much-time-on-their-hands-crafters ruling the game?
Like I said there's lots of appealing aspects of your game though - good point!
My 2 cents.
I think crafting is fine. I have never spent a lot of my own time crafting, but others in the various guilds I've been in have asked for certain items, and if while in the course of adventuring I come across those items, I take them and give them to the crafter.
Unless you don't want to have any affiliation with anyone else in the game you play and want to be left alone, I'm not sure why anyone would be against crafting.
I love the choice that crafting gives me. I can be in game with my friends and making something beautiful without that "just sitting aroung" feeling. I can wear what I make and be proud of it. It's a roleplaying thing.
SWG (it was better before the changes) had one of the better crafting systems, IMHO. I had never seen a game that allowed so many options as far as color. I really hate games where everyone looks exactly alike as if they were pressed out of a cookie mold.
Of course, it doesn't appeal to everyone but those who don't like it can usually quest, or buy (NPC or PC) items. Power levellers will hate crafting mainly because it's only the end of the game that matters, not the journey that you take in getting there. RPers, on the other hand, want the added challenge.
In closing, my husband tried DDO and I wouldn't even get into it. There's a game for non-crafters, those players can have it. Personally, I think there was a chance to have a fantastic gaming experience in DDO but after watching my hubby stress test and actually say he didn't want to buy the game (a hard core D&Der), I can't help thinking that someone missed the boat by not having crafting.
games without crafting are missing out on a lot of benefits; an in game ecconomy, customisation, immersion in the world, greater pc interaction.
A lot of this harks back to the class v skill debate. A game is much the better if you have the freedom to skill in crafting (certainly more rewarding than a class craft system). Project Entropia got it right.
To be honest i hated crafting but when i actually spent the time and EFFORT required to become one of the best at it in SWG (PRE CU) it was rewarding. It helped me interact with many people in my guild which otherwise i wouldn't have met, not to mention make contacts with all the resource gatherers whom i made many friends out of and not to mention the buzz you used to get by trying to make items, food, armor etc better then the other crafters.
If you have a MMORPG which concentrates to much on the combat side of things and neglects crafting and offers nothing but a loot based economy it lacks depth and players will eventually leave the game looking for something else. To make a complete MMORPG ,which none of the current crop of games out there for me do, you need to take in account everyones playing styles some people love crafting and all things associated with it others don't and often stick with combat.
WOW for me has done alot of things right with the combat pvp and pve but beyond that its lame, the crafting is way to simple and too much reliance on loot to make some of the items. The best crafting system i have seen and i hate to say it much as i hate SOE/LA was SWG's pre-cu before they dumbed it down. Simply put you neglect crafting and have a loot based economy your game lacks depth and although you could have the best combat instances and content eventually people will start looking for something else to do and if your game can't offer it they will leave.
Water cooled Intel Corei7 920 D0 Stepping OC'd 4.3GHz - 6GB Corsair Dominator GT RAM 2000Mhz - ASUS RAGE II EXTREME X58 Mobo - 2x HD 5870 in Crossfire X, OC'd 0.9Ghz core 1.3Ghz RAM - Dell 2407WFP Flat Panel LCD 24" 1920x1200
I believe that crafting is absolutely necessary for a MMOG to have a true player economy. I truely enjoy crafting and to those who complain about crafting being a grind, well isn't that what most combat becomes? I feel that having crafters and crafting being an integral part of the game will extend the amount of time people will play the game. If the game is all about leveling your character up to an arbitrary level then thats all you do and once you reach that level you find another game to play. But when crafting is important then building a business can become your new goal, and when players set their own goals they will play the game for much longer. If SWG had not drastically changed I would still be playing it now, but since it did change I am currently playing WoW while looking for a game with a better crafting system.
aka Sha'llira the Wookiee MTailor/MPistoleer
Katerin Vorthys Master Droid Engineer
FROM ARTICLE: I have a rather unpopular confession to make I hate crafting. Primarily, I hate having to rely on other players for 'the best' items in a game where I cannot compete without them. It can drive the economy crazy because greedy gatherers charge whatever they want for their recourses, and crafters pass that extra expense, along with their own need for greed, along to me, the poor sap who need weapons, armor, bullets, guns, etc. Frequently, the crafter is the gatherer, meaning they answer to no one but themselves. Next thing I know, I have to farm for 2 days to make enough gold to buy a piece of armor that will last maybe 2 levels!
These are valid complaints but, as has been said, they result from an inherrant flaw in most MMORPG economies. The resources that are endlessly gathered are just time sinks and randomly respawn. This is what lets anyone with enough time get tons of it. The only thing required is time.
Also it has been said that crafting is boring. I say let NPCs do the harvesting/crafting and let players manage it, but make it so that they can't run such an operation alone without reliance on others. In this way they can't charge exorbiant prices. The economy isn't circular enough. It gets out of balance.
What if it was the players out there bashing the monsters that got the resources. They need the crafters to make the stuff, but the crafters need the other players to gather the stuff. And not just those players that have the time, but those that have the SKILLS. There should be many componants that can't be had without the right set of skills. Some would come off monsters so only those fighters that can kill them get those resources. Some items might require time sinks, but others would require certain skills, even magical/theif type skills etc. In this way every type of character would have the means to harvest some resources and so they would have a say in what they prices would be.
The problem is that they divide things too much. The non-crafters have nothing to do with the crafting process except they need the stuff. The crafters don't need anything from the non-crafters except their money. make them mutually dependant.
Note: Level based items also hurt economies by making certain items useless as the player base becomes more top heavy.
This post is really random for me. I guess it's because I'm so dang HUNGRY right now.
IronOre - Forging the Future