Blizzard had the Diablo fans too. Those are RPG fans and action RPGs were very close to what MMORPGs were. Games with tons of grind for loot and levels but without that much story. Actually WoW brought in a lot of storytelling to the genre. They had about 3000-4000 quests all immersing you into the story and lore of the world. This was never done in an MMO before. Prior MMOs either didn't have any quests, had only few quests or had about 100 quests in total which were added as an afterthought. Surprisngly a game called EverQUEST had very few quests.
I was a fan of RPGs and RTS games when I came to play WoW. So you are generalising quite a bit. I know a lot of friends who loved RPGs and WC3 had quite a bit of RPG elements going on. BUt yeah I have played a lot of RPGs before I came to play WoW.
As much as I liked Diablo 1 & 2, I'm still not willing to call them RPGs. To me they were action adventures with some RPG elements. Perhaps that's just it. Guys who knew a simplified "RPG", that only consisted of some few points and constant action, with story (At least Diablo 2 had one) were drawn in, along with the RTS crowd. Both mostly knew lobby gaming, with Battle.net. I can't tell how complex WoW was back then and is now, as I am one of the selected few, that only saw WoW on screens of friends and never myself playing (It withdrew a good amount of our Anarchy Online org, so I was not looking at WoW kindly. )
And yup... I'm generalising, since we gamers are usually not 100% one genre, but have different backgrounds and amounts in our "preferance diagram". Just like I played some RTS and loved Starcraft & Warcraft, but never were a full fledged "RTSer". All in all I knew people who only played FPS and RTS and were drawn in by WoW, just like Diablo drew in some people from other genres, due to the cross-over of genres. Blizzard had the right mix, with the right franchise at the right time I guess and changed the landscape of MMORPG-players, by broadening the audience.
What's more shocking was that wow was so popular and praised when it launched that I know peopel who have never played a video game in their life and they played wow like crazy. Then afterwards they went back to not playing any games. Wow had an insane pull and when it launched it did a lot right.
Besides are you really going to argue that MMOs before wow had more story? Wow had a lot more story content than EQ and role playing was a huge thing in wow back in the days. Wow had 3-4k quests with a lot of story quest chains which really immersed you in the lore. In EQ you could grind like a maniac and not find out anything about the story of the world.
The reason I mentioned Diablo was because it was a blizzard game. I also played games like baldurs gate, icewind dale amd never winter nights. Actually if anything I don't think MMORPGs are real RPGs. They lack story complexity, character customisation is limited, itemisatiom is poor. If anything MMORPGs are focused on levellimg and loot like action RPGs.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
What i mean by that is, has their mastery of addictive design (psychology more or less) set gamers into a perpetual need for rewards? Few sell gaining prizes as well as Blizzard. Although some cash-shops feed on other addictive mechanics nicely..
WOW, in comparison to other games, is addictiveness built into design.
I hate to generalize as it's just assumption, but I think this is a big part of why WOW holds people like it does, the same could be said about DIablo 1-2. WHich many of the same hands played a part in creating those titles.
I think this has led to a high number of gamers who are addicted to that feeling now, when games don't focus on that, when they don't constantly have that addiction fueled (a grand new shiny), they lose interest. Hence why most other themeparks don't fair as well. Their designs focus elsewhere Story, PVP, etc..., is this what is missing in them? Constant stimulation from better and better rewards?
One thing that leads me to believe this is the case is that many people who say things like Story blah... cite going back to WOW from what ever game they say it about. Many who say there is no risk vs reward cite going back to wow.. etc etc etc.. It seems like people who are into WOW have a really hard time getting into anything else. Same with many Diablo players who could only find a new home in WOW. IS that all that stimulates a person after playing it for so long? Two things many games they leave have in common is story focus and limited gear appearances (examples being TOR and ESO).
I personally never get much stimulation out of gear rewards, epic mounts etc.. Hence I've always despised Diablo like games as well as disliked WOW.
What WOW did well was make a game genere, that formerly appealed to the gaming industry's most niche audience, with the gaming industry's most lucrative pricing model (box sale + reoccurring monthly fee) and removed many of the things that made it a niche offering.....lowering barriers to entry: reduce time requirements, increase rate of rewards, increase tangible rewards, created rules that protected a user's experience, and of course made everything pretty & wrapped it in a nice story line.
They mainstreamed MMO gaming. While some of the former MMO audience did migrate to & stay with WOW (it was a hell of a game for it's time), most of the modern MMO playerbase was built from people who previously played other casual games, or engaged in other casual entertainment. Folks that might have tried & abandoned a game like Ultima Online would have been drawn to the MMO sector with a game like WOW. A person that might have been a single player console gamer would have been drawn to the MMO sector with a game like WOW.
So now you have a HUGE audience of "computer gamers", who were previously not part of the MMO playerbase. As such, new MMO dev / publishing houses looking to cash in on the lucrative business has to build their product to meet the wants / needs of the NEW - MORE CASUAL audience....who may be conditioned, or have a preference for, more immediate tangible reward systems, lower time requirements, value look n' feel over complicated mechanics.
Also, having to pay for all the aesthetics (latest 3D engines, orchestra sound tracks) and a perpetual development cycle costs a lot of money. So much money that in order to earn a return on investment within a reasonable time frame, the game needs to be designed such that it appeals to the most number of people possible (hello lowest common denominator)....putting further pressure to lower time requirements, lower dependencies on other players to experience content, increase rewards, reduce punitive damages.
This is why every AAA published MMO, with gigantic budgets, looked & felt very similar to WOW. The reason they all failed is because Blizzard did an incredible job with WOW, and essentially burned out the playerbase on that kind of game style such that it didn't make sense to stick with other new similar games.
I tried Rift, LoTR, Aion, GW2, Warhammer, etc....and got REALLY board REALLY fast....because I realized I was running the same "Kill 10 Wolves" quests & "Deliver letter to person in the next quest hub" quests, only starting from complete scratch with a bunch of people I didn't know.
The fatigue for the WOW kind of game followed me to every new game because I was essentially playing the same game, without all the benefits / advantages of the established system I had in place with WOW. If I'm going to run easy / painless quests all day, I might as well do it in the game I've already become "pot committed" to, where I have wealth, gear, achievements, mounts, and a friend list.
Had WOW not existed, and one of those other games release first....I think any one of them could have set the same trend (albeit not as likely as successful as Blizzard)
Players didn't ruin *traditional MMO gaming*, the industry did.....by boiling down MMO gaming into a formulaic process, in effort to exploit the millions of players that flocked to the MMO space, with the advent of an easy to jump into & learn game called World of Warcraft.
Originally posted by Thebeasttt Wow was simply the highest quality MMO for the better part of a decade. Wow didn't ruin gamers, the failure of every other MMO company did.
Nope,I find wow graphics,global cooldown combat,lobby based teleport to dungeon gameplay inferior to most MMORP G games.I hate everything about this turd of a game.
You probably never played wow. When that game launched it was the best thing since sliced bread. People were raving about how awesome and immersive the game was. The game became the biggest mmo because when it launched there was nothing like it. You think wows global cool down is bad? Clearly you haven't tried MMOs from that time or even are years after wow. There was no teleport dungeon gameplay, graphics were awesome.
So yeah you probably played wow 5-7 years after launch and you fail to see what made this game awesome. Almost every mmo before and after wow was changed to mirror wow design philosophies,.
So all you're saying is sliced bread is better than wow,I have to agree.Graphics are awesome haha such a joke.I played MMORPG before WoW and GCD is shit on any game.They mirror it to try and make a quick $$$,this is why the genre is dead,it doesn't make them right.
i dont think blizzard ruined the mmo market. not in my eyes. blizzard was a lexus. we all got to drive the lexus, every other game maker keeps making fords, toyotas, hondas, chevy's, hoping that you will buy their car that isnt quite a lexus, but they supe it up just enough that it feels like it could be, for a few hundred miles, but eventually things start to break down for you.
some kids will really like their ford, and compare all their other cars in the future to their old ford they loved. some spoiled brats only want another lexus or all else sux and they arent driving it.
You make a quality product and stay attentive to what the consumers want. That's longevity and you stay around. WoW is somewhat outdated now but it's still relevent because they did it right from the start. Granted I don't play the game anymore because I've moved on but I still have deep respect for the model they built. They ruin gamers because gamers want things done right and not half done. It's like a car. You can get a great deal on a Kia and it has a good warranty but what good is it if it's always in the shop? Should of spent a few dollars more and got that Subaru or whatever. I'm just saying gamers know whats right and whats pathetic and you can't fool them anymore.
It made it so the pale basement dwellers weren't the only one playing MMORPG anymore. Has it's good and bad sides. Like people expecting stuff handed to them instead of going out and earning it. Gaining a level didn't take a week, lots of quests around where before a quest was a big deal and took a long time to complete. You used to have to talk to NPCs and find out stuff through keywords. There needs to be a good pre WoW era type MMORPG that is not EQ. Back in the day where you could do a mix of mob grinding and questing.
Too simplified and dumbed down these days for my liking. I don't mind good cinematics but not at the cost of gameplay. I see the future of mediocre gameplay and lots of cinematics and click which option to progress the story in a given way. I play games to play games not watch movies. Bliz does good cinematics and if they went down that route it would still be popular because if the interesting lore but I still like to actually play the games and not watch them.
I feel what you're saying, but the truth is, you didn't have to be a basement dweller to enjoy EQ. I knew plenty of casual players that loved it because it was still rewarding even if you didn't play every day. Its a fallacy commonly thrown about that a game must be shallow and offer more convenience to be rewarding, but thats just not true.
Harder games will never appeal to as many people as easy games. Just look at the most popular games in the world. They are the easiest, simplest, and most convenient games, but they are fun and mostly mobile so they can be enjoyed anywhere.
WOW, in comparison to other games, is addictiveness built into design.
Not wanting to burst your bubble, but Everquest was nicknamed "Evercrack" years before WoW was even in the projects of Blizzard. WoW is way more accessible to everyone and way less demanding time wise than EQ has ever been.
Wow didn't ruin anything... it improved the whole genre, by making it accessible instead of being a second job if you wanted to experience all the content.
Actually, Blizzard hired Vegas experts to specifically help them build addictiveness into the game back in the day... The original reward systems were built off of the same structures as casinos...
I don't think it ruined gamers, but it hurt investors. There will never be another WoW, never, maybe a WoW2, but nothing as successful as WoW. WoW caused investors of all types to look at it's success and think "I gotta get in on this, what is it called? MMO business?" These investors over-invested in developers that wanted to make games just like WoW. The problem is that while WoW is technically an MMO, it was alot different than other MMOs of the time. Blizzard didn't make anything new really, but they did make the ease of access to MMOs. That is why it exploded on the market.
People in general want to communicate with each other. and Blizzard made WoW a way to do so without much effort. It's kind of like Twitter or Facebook, before there was Twitter or Facebook. It was a way to get people to connect and do things together. It's one of the main driving forces of why WoW still has the best numbers even though it's 10+ years old. You can talk about gameplay, pve, pvp, graphics, sfx, performance, f2p, p2p, b2p, but one thing that Blizzard did and has done better than any other MMO company was get people to connect together. It's really the only reason I still play WoW after all these years. If it wasn't for my friends who still play and my guildmates some that I've known since the mid 90s (some I've never met irl). Some say that the LFR and LFG tools kind of got rid of this because nobody talks to each other. I disagree. As soon as you enter an LFR or LFG raid/dungeon if you say simply "hi" you'll get a response almost always, and it makes that dungeon that much more enjoyable.
It depends when you are looking at wow. I'd say in the past, to some extent yes... perhaps it did with stuff like Timeless island. I feel now though its to the point that instant gratification doesn't work anymore with the garrisons giving away loot without effort, something that I feel goes off the side and people just dislike it and don't find satisfaction with it.
I think WOTLK is where Blizzard took the right steps to casual without going overboard personally. There were some elements one could argue, but they did just the right balance of making you work for it, while giving you a chance to catch up. TOC and ICC I feel were a bit worst off in how they executed, but before that I'd say they found a pretty good balance, with ICC bringing in some good and bad with it. I do feel some more 'progression' could be used, but over-all I didn't find it too bad of a compromise.
A game that focuses on end game should have some ways to catch up to the 'latest' content, while also having players work to achieve it. As a game chugs on with more progression ,the time investment to reach 'top end' should lower, while still giving some work for people to catch up. Having badges (items you earn to some limit that can be traded in for more relevant gear) can do a good job with this. Final Fantasy 14 has done a pretty good job with that element (not perfect but hands down vastly better then wow has) giving good items a step below the best that can be upgraded to top tier, and is limited by a weakly cap, with a "LFR" (well a little less braindead version) NEW seperate raid which players can get 1 piece of loot a weak that is a step below the best.
It made it so the pale basement dwellers weren't the only one playing MMORPG anymore. Has it's good and bad sides. Like people expecting stuff handed to them instead of going out and earning it. Gaining a level didn't take a week, lots of quests around where before a quest was a big deal and took a long time to complete. You used to have to talk to NPCs and find out stuff through keywords. There needs to be a good pre WoW era type MMORPG that is not EQ. Back in the day where you could do a mix of mob grinding and questing.
Too simplified and dumbed down these days for my liking. I don't mind good cinematics but not at the cost of gameplay. I see the future of mediocre gameplay and lots of cinematics and click which option to progress the story in a given way. I play games to play games not watch movies. Bliz does good cinematics and if they went down that route it would still be popular because if the interesting lore but I still like to actually play the games and not watch them.
I feel what you're saying, but the truth is, you didn't have to be a basement dweller to enjoy EQ. I knew plenty of casual players that loved it because it was still rewarding even if you didn't play every day. Its a fallacy commonly thrown about that a game must be shallow and offer more convenience to be rewarding, but thats just not true.
Harder games will never appeal to as many people as easy games. Just look at the most popular games in the world. They are the easiest, simplest, and most convenient games, but they are fun and mostly mobile so they can be enjoyed anywhere.
EQ was horrible if you played casually. Try playing an hour here and there and see if you get anywhere. It used to take people days of hardcore levellimg to get a few levels. What hope does a casual player have? Level up once a month?
games like EQ were for the hardcore (4+ hours a day but usually more like 10-12). If you played 10 hours a week you would not get anywhere in EQ, at least not in this lifetime anyway.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
There is one thing that I think Blizzard did back in the time of WotLK that has ruined mmorpg games and gamers alike. That was putting gear scores into the game. Now it seems that every game has gear scores in one form or another. From people now wanting things like other players to have a required armor level or +hits to join their group for the quest they are doing.
Thats my personal feeling on things. WoW was a great game at start and over time with WotLK seems to have gone down hill and lost the enjoyment of playing that it had.
There is one thing that I think Blizzard did back in the time of WotLK that has ruined mmorpg games and gamers alike. That was putting gear scores into the game. Now it seems that every game has gear scores in one form or another. From people now wanting things like other players to have a required armor level or +hits to join their group for the quest they are doing.
Thats my personal feeling on things. WoW was a great game at start and over time with WotLK seems to have gone down hill and lost the enjoyment of playing that it had.
Just like everything else people hate about WoW (no need to read quest text, handholding map, cast auras to let you know your spell is ready, etc etc) gearscore started as an add-on.
People really don't give other gamers credit for being the culprits of a lot of insidious and terrible additions to MMO's. Glowy ground quest trail? Add-on. Threat/DPS meters? Add-on Enemy cast bars? Add-on. And so on.
It was players and investors who really ruined the genre. The players because they did exactly what humans do, optimize and push efficiency to it's limit until there was no mystery left. Even with new games, you only have X amount of time before all the guides and videos are everywhere and everyone expects you to know everything before doing it. Real fun. That's literally where challenge is - figuring it out for yourself. All these internet guides and resources are basically game genie.
And then you have the money men who just want to make a quick buck and don't give two squats about gaming. People keep talking about "WoW clones." Wow clones are to WoW what I am to Batman. Do I fight crime? No. Do I have a bat suit? No. Am I a billionaire? No. Are my parents dead? No. But I am a human white male, so therefore . . . Batman clone!
Every so called WoW clone is nothing but a pale shadow of WoW (some with 1-2 nice features to set them apart, but falling flat in every other area). But you know the funniest thing about this thread and threads like it? Hypocrisy. People whine and cry about WoW constantly, but as soon as that next xpac comes out these forums are slower than molasses cause everyone is right back to WoW (until they complete most of the new content, then they're right back to crying about WoW).
There's a lot to reply to, wasn't able to post all day due to some obligations.
First off I'll say Aesperus hit on the point I was making fairly well. If you haven't read his post do so:)
What Eclipse2g said is fairly interesting, have any links where I could read up on that? because that could go a long way to reinforcing my point:). I'd never heard of that before.
To those who disagree with my point, fair enough, as I said I was making assumptions, I understand what that means. I have no proof of any of this, it's simply part looking for what keeps people coming back to WOW from everything else, part anecdotal evidence based on common forums posts over the years.
Overall I feel it bred a good discussion, I guess that's all that matters in the end. Thanks for keeping the dialogue intelligent, and keeping the flames at bay.
@Rusque nah, you won't see me going back to WOW, I haven't set foot in that game since the vanilla era.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
WOW, in comparison to other games, is addictiveness built into design.
Not wanting to burst your bubble, but Everquest was nicknamed "Evercrack" years before WoW was even in the projects of Blizzard. WoW is way more accessible to everyone and way less demanding time wise than EQ has ever been.
Wow didn't ruin anything... it improved the whole genre, by making it accessible instead of being a second job if you wanted to experience all the content.
Do you ever stop spouting the same nonsense? You do realize your full of it right? Wow did not improve anything except minor things like chats, guilds, lfg tools, and pvp. The only thing it really did was appeal to the casual market and created a huge solo experience with minor grouping elements.
It made it so the pale basement dwellers weren't the only one playing MMORPG anymore. Has it's good and bad sides. Like people expecting stuff handed to them instead of going out and earning it. Gaining a level didn't take a week, lots of quests around where before a quest was a big deal and took a long time to complete. You used to have to talk to NPCs and find out stuff through keywords. There needs to be a good pre WoW era type MMORPG that is not EQ. Back in the day where you could do a mix of mob grinding and questing.
Too simplified and dumbed down these days for my liking. I don't mind good cinematics but not at the cost of gameplay. I see the future of mediocre gameplay and lots of cinematics and click which option to progress the story in a given way. I play games to play games not watch movies. Bliz does good cinematics and if they went down that route it would still be popular because if the interesting lore but I still like to actually play the games and not watch them.
I feel what you're saying, but the truth is, you didn't have to be a basement dweller to enjoy EQ. I knew plenty of casual players that loved it because it was still rewarding even if you didn't play every day. Its a fallacy commonly thrown about that a game must be shallow and offer more convenience to be rewarding, but thats just not true.
Harder games will never appeal to as many people as easy games. Just look at the most popular games in the world. They are the easiest, simplest, and most convenient games, but they are fun and mostly mobile so they can be enjoyed anywhere.
EQ was horrible if you played casually. Try playing an hour here and there and see if you get anywhere. It used to take people days of hardcore levellimg to get a few levels. What hope does a casual player have? Level up once a month?
games like EQ were for the hardcore (4+ hours a day but usually more like 10-12). If you played 10 hours a week you would not get anywhere in EQ, at least not in this lifetime anyway.
I loved eq and I agree with you we need a balance of new and old ideas rather then simply just hardcore, but mmorpgs need that sense of adventure and danger eq had to be truly meaningful, to feel like your in a virtual world to a point you have to pay attention, there is a fine line between to much and to freaken casual.
Right before WoW came out, back when every tabletop gaming store had a computer cafe and most homes didnt have a pc, I remember people spending a few hundred dollars a month(people on fixed incomes) to get access to a pc to play EQ. Never Rest Ever Crack destroyed lives lol that game stole souls lol I know people who still to this day and have been captured by that game and wont play/do anything else.
What WoW did different was made a game that was much easier to play, and with conditioning designed for the average person and not computer geeks. I remember in SWG every character on the screen could look very different, the lag was horrible in large pvp fights, more like something out of Eve then WoW. You had to have a good computer to play, the UI was not easy to use like WoWs. Games have been addictive since forever, what set WoW apart was Blizzard was the first company to think MMORPGS could be bigger then geeks and computer nerds and made a game for a much larger customer base.
I feel what you're saying, but the truth is, you didn't have to be a basement dweller to enjoy EQ. I knew plenty of casual players that loved it because it was still rewarding even if you didn't play every day. Its a fallacy commonly thrown about that a game must be shallow and offer more convenience to be rewarding, but thats just not true.
Harder games will never appeal to as many people as easy games. Just look at the most popular games in the world. They are the easiest, simplest, and most convenient games, but they are fun and mostly mobile so they can be enjoyed anywhere.
EQ was horrible if you played casually. Try playing an hour here and there and see if you get anywhere. It used to take people days of hardcore levellimg to get a few levels. What hope does a casual player have? Level up once a month?
games like EQ were for the hardcore (4+ hours a day but usually more like 10-12). If you played 10 hours a week you would not get anywhere in EQ, at least not in this lifetime anyway.
I loved eq and I agree with you we need a balance of new and old ideas rather then simply just hardcore, but mmorpgs need that sense of adventure and danger eq had to be truly meaningful, to feel like your in a virtual world to a point you have to pay attention, there is a fine line between to much and to freaken casual.
If offered more for the hardcore, but people I knew who didn't even play every day, had kids jobs, and balancing school still played, and when they did play, they had a blast. There was nothing preventing players from playing casually, its just that people have it in their head now that if they play a game, they are entitled to experiencing everything even if they aren't as good or don't play as often. Before this way of thinking became popular, people were more than happy with what they were capable of experiencing even playing a hard game casually.
I feel what you're saying, but the truth is, you didn't have to be a basement dweller to enjoy EQ. I knew plenty of casual players that loved it because it was still rewarding even if you didn't play every day. Its a fallacy commonly thrown about that a game must be shallow and offer more convenience to be rewarding, but thats just not true.
Harder games will never appeal to as many people as easy games. Just look at the most popular games in the world. They are the easiest, simplest, and most convenient games, but they are fun and mostly mobile so they can be enjoyed anywhere.
EQ was horrible if you played casually. Try playing an hour here and there and see if you get anywhere. It used to take people days of hardcore levellimg to get a few levels. What hope does a casual player have? Level up once a month?
games like EQ were for the hardcore (4+ hours a day but usually more like 10-12). If you played 10 hours a week you would not get anywhere in EQ, at least not in this lifetime anyway.
I loved eq and I agree with you we need a balance of new and old ideas rather then simply just hardcore, but mmorpgs need that sense of adventure and danger eq had to be truly meaningful, to feel like your in a virtual world to a point you have to pay attention, there is a fine line between to much and to freaken casual.
If offered more for the hardcore, but people I knew who didn't even play every day, had kids jobs, and balancing school still played, and when they did play, they had a blast. There was nothing preventing players from playing casually, its just that people have it in their head now that if they play a game, they are entitled to experiencing everything even if they aren't as good or don't play as often. Before this way of thinking became popular, people were more than happy with what they were capable of experiencing even playing a hard game casually.
Well I dont know, games like the elder scroll games you can play more casually then eq1, I think eq1 was a bit to far into to play casually.
I feel what you're saying, but the truth is, you didn't have to be a basement dweller to enjoy EQ. I knew plenty of casual players that loved it because it was still rewarding even if you didn't play every day. Its a fallacy commonly thrown about that a game must be shallow and offer more convenience to be rewarding, but thats just not true.
Harder games will never appeal to as many people as easy games. Just look at the most popular games in the world. They are the easiest, simplest, and most convenient games, but they are fun and mostly mobile so they can be enjoyed anywhere.
EQ was horrible if you played casually. Try playing an hour here and there and see if you get anywhere. It used to take people days of hardcore levellimg to get a few levels. What hope does a casual player have? Level up once a month?
games like EQ were for the hardcore (4+ hours a day but usually more like 10-12). If you played 10 hours a week you would not get anywhere in EQ, at least not in this lifetime anyway.
I loved eq and I agree with you we need a balance of new and old ideas rather then simply just hardcore, but mmorpgs need that sense of adventure and danger eq had to be truly meaningful, to feel like your in a virtual world to a point you have to pay attention, there is a fine line between to much and to freaken casual.
If offered more for the hardcore, but people I knew who didn't even play every day, had kids jobs, and balancing school still played, and when they did play, they had a blast. There was nothing preventing players from playing casually, its just that people have it in their head now that if they play a game, they are entitled to experiencing everything even if they aren't as good or don't play as often. Before this way of thinking became popular, people were more than happy with what they were capable of experiencing even playing a hard game casually.
IMO, I think EQ benefited from the novelty of the MMORPG experience coupled with the early stages of online avatar collaboration and communications with other gamers. It's hard to prove (although not really necessary because I applaud industries that capitalize at the right time) but I believe we can't ignore that EQ just had good timing with various experiences that it offered. The new game experience with others greatly nullified the cons others have mentioned.
But times have changed more so around gaming than the games themselves. They way online communication is performed these days without the need to being in game together, coupled with gamers/guilds/clans +15 years of establishment, I have a hard time seeing people enjoying the same older EQ experience/excitement with a modern EQ style, hardcore or casual.
No company has the power to "ruin" gamers, because games dont ruin players.
Players ruin themselves with choices they make.
Games only have power if you give them power to control your life - so the fault is always with the player.
A game can't turn itself on and make you play.
A company can't make you play their games.
The choice is always squarely in player's hands.
While i agree with you, especially on the personal responsibility, the game absolutely has the "ability" to ruin players.
When they knowingly pray on psychological or physiological traits there is something wrong with that. Governments have traditionally regulated this kind of activity, like when cigarette companies had ad's targetting kids because they knew they would get them hooked on it for life, due to its addictive nature.
The issue comes down to where do you draw the line between personal responsibility and predatory practices?
Some people have ridiculous assertions (I.e. bloomberg and his limiting soda sizes BS), and others are on the opposite end of the spectrum, almost anarchist, etc.
I definitely think that modern MMO's, particularly a lot of the F2P games, and ESPECIALLY things like farmville, don't even try to hide the fact that they're preying on these traits of humanity, and to me thats predatory and should be regulated. At least to the point that maybe there is a warning of some sort so that people can't say they weren't aware of it. (i.e. cigarettes).
I would never support the gov't stepping in to the point of banning these acitivities, but i do think there is some room for improvement as far as educating people, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
do not forget what nexustk brought to the table.. i played all the first gen mmo's and i always liked the way nexus did things compared to the cookiecutter that is lineage,eq,wow,uo
Comments
- Albert Einstein
What's more shocking was that wow was so popular and praised when it launched that I know peopel who have never played a video game in their life and they played wow like crazy. Then afterwards they went back to not playing any games. Wow had an insane pull and when it launched it did a lot right.
Besides are you really going to argue that MMOs before wow had more story? Wow had a lot more story content than EQ and role playing was a huge thing in wow back in the days. Wow had 3-4k quests with a lot of story quest chains which really immersed you in the lore. In EQ you could grind like a maniac and not find out anything about the story of the world.
The reason I mentioned Diablo was because it was a blizzard game. I also played games like baldurs gate, icewind dale amd never winter nights. Actually if anything I don't think MMORPGs are real RPGs. They lack story complexity, character customisation is limited, itemisatiom is poor. If anything MMORPGs are focused on levellimg and loot like action RPGs.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
What WOW did well was make a game genere, that formerly appealed to the gaming industry's most niche audience, with the gaming industry's most lucrative pricing model (box sale + reoccurring monthly fee) and removed many of the things that made it a niche offering.....lowering barriers to entry: reduce time requirements, increase rate of rewards, increase tangible rewards, created rules that protected a user's experience, and of course made everything pretty & wrapped it in a nice story line.
They mainstreamed MMO gaming. While some of the former MMO audience did migrate to & stay with WOW (it was a hell of a game for it's time), most of the modern MMO playerbase was built from people who previously played other casual games, or engaged in other casual entertainment. Folks that might have tried & abandoned a game like Ultima Online would have been drawn to the MMO sector with a game like WOW. A person that might have been a single player console gamer would have been drawn to the MMO sector with a game like WOW.
So now you have a HUGE audience of "computer gamers", who were previously not part of the MMO playerbase. As such, new MMO dev / publishing houses looking to cash in on the lucrative business has to build their product to meet the wants / needs of the NEW - MORE CASUAL audience....who may be conditioned, or have a preference for, more immediate tangible reward systems, lower time requirements, value look n' feel over complicated mechanics.
Also, having to pay for all the aesthetics (latest 3D engines, orchestra sound tracks) and a perpetual development cycle costs a lot of money. So much money that in order to earn a return on investment within a reasonable time frame, the game needs to be designed such that it appeals to the most number of people possible (hello lowest common denominator)....putting further pressure to lower time requirements, lower dependencies on other players to experience content, increase rewards, reduce punitive damages.
This is why every AAA published MMO, with gigantic budgets, looked & felt very similar to WOW. The reason they all failed is because Blizzard did an incredible job with WOW, and essentially burned out the playerbase on that kind of game style such that it didn't make sense to stick with other new similar games.
I tried Rift, LoTR, Aion, GW2, Warhammer, etc....and got REALLY board REALLY fast....because I realized I was running the same "Kill 10 Wolves" quests & "Deliver letter to person in the next quest hub" quests, only starting from complete scratch with a bunch of people I didn't know.
The fatigue for the WOW kind of game followed me to every new game because I was essentially playing the same game, without all the benefits / advantages of the established system I had in place with WOW. If I'm going to run easy / painless quests all day, I might as well do it in the game I've already become "pot committed" to, where I have wealth, gear, achievements, mounts, and a friend list.
Had WOW not existed, and one of those other games release first....I think any one of them could have set the same trend (albeit not as likely as successful as Blizzard)
Players didn't ruin *traditional MMO gaming*, the industry did.....by boiling down MMO gaming into a formulaic process, in effort to exploit the millions of players that flocked to the MMO space, with the advent of an easy to jump into & learn game called World of Warcraft.
So all you're saying is sliced bread is better than wow,I have to agree.Graphics are awesome haha such a joke.I played MMORPG before WoW and GCD is shit on any game.They mirror it to try and make a quick $$$,this is why the genre is dead,it doesn't make them right.
i dont think blizzard ruined the mmo market. not in my eyes. blizzard was a lexus. we all got to drive the lexus, every other game maker keeps making fords, toyotas, hondas, chevy's, hoping that you will buy their car that isnt quite a lexus, but they supe it up just enough that it feels like it could be, for a few hundred miles, but eventually things start to break down for you.
some kids will really like their ford, and compare all their other cars in the future to their old ford they loved. some spoiled brats only want another lexus or all else sux and they arent driving it.
thats about it.
I feel what you're saying, but the truth is, you didn't have to be a basement dweller to enjoy EQ. I knew plenty of casual players that loved it because it was still rewarding even if you didn't play every day. Its a fallacy commonly thrown about that a game must be shallow and offer more convenience to be rewarding, but thats just not true.
Harder games will never appeal to as many people as easy games. Just look at the most popular games in the world. They are the easiest, simplest, and most convenient games, but they are fun and mostly mobile so they can be enjoyed anywhere.
Actually, Blizzard hired Vegas experts to specifically help them build addictiveness into the game back in the day... The original reward systems were built off of the same structures as casinos...
I don't think it ruined gamers, but it hurt investors. There will never be another WoW, never, maybe a WoW2, but nothing as successful as WoW. WoW caused investors of all types to look at it's success and think "I gotta get in on this, what is it called? MMO business?" These investors over-invested in developers that wanted to make games just like WoW. The problem is that while WoW is technically an MMO, it was alot different than other MMOs of the time. Blizzard didn't make anything new really, but they did make the ease of access to MMOs. That is why it exploded on the market.
People in general want to communicate with each other. and Blizzard made WoW a way to do so without much effort. It's kind of like Twitter or Facebook, before there was Twitter or Facebook. It was a way to get people to connect and do things together. It's one of the main driving forces of why WoW still has the best numbers even though it's 10+ years old. You can talk about gameplay, pve, pvp, graphics, sfx, performance, f2p, p2p, b2p, but one thing that Blizzard did and has done better than any other MMO company was get people to connect together. It's really the only reason I still play WoW after all these years. If it wasn't for my friends who still play and my guildmates some that I've known since the mid 90s (some I've never met irl). Some say that the LFR and LFG tools kind of got rid of this because nobody talks to each other. I disagree. As soon as you enter an LFR or LFG raid/dungeon if you say simply "hi" you'll get a response almost always, and it makes that dungeon that much more enjoyable.
It depends when you are looking at wow. I'd say in the past, to some extent yes... perhaps it did with stuff like Timeless island. I feel now though its to the point that instant gratification doesn't work anymore with the garrisons giving away loot without effort, something that I feel goes off the side and people just dislike it and don't find satisfaction with it.
I think WOTLK is where Blizzard took the right steps to casual without going overboard personally. There were some elements one could argue, but they did just the right balance of making you work for it, while giving you a chance to catch up. TOC and ICC I feel were a bit worst off in how they executed, but before that I'd say they found a pretty good balance, with ICC bringing in some good and bad with it. I do feel some more 'progression' could be used, but over-all I didn't find it too bad of a compromise.
A game that focuses on end game should have some ways to catch up to the 'latest' content, while also having players work to achieve it. As a game chugs on with more progression ,the time investment to reach 'top end' should lower, while still giving some work for people to catch up. Having badges (items you earn to some limit that can be traded in for more relevant gear) can do a good job with this. Final Fantasy 14 has done a pretty good job with that element (not perfect but hands down vastly better then wow has) giving good items a step below the best that can be upgraded to top tier, and is limited by a weakly cap, with a "LFR" (well a little less braindead version) NEW seperate raid which players can get 1 piece of loot a weak that is a step below the best.
EQ was horrible if you played casually. Try playing an hour here and there and see if you get anywhere. It used to take people days of hardcore levellimg to get a few levels. What hope does a casual player have? Level up once a month?
games like EQ were for the hardcore (4+ hours a day but usually more like 10-12). If you played 10 hours a week you would not get anywhere in EQ, at least not in this lifetime anyway.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
There is one thing that I think Blizzard did back in the time of WotLK that has ruined mmorpg games and gamers alike. That was putting gear scores into the game. Now it seems that every game has gear scores in one form or another. From people now wanting things like other players to have a required armor level or +hits to join their group for the quest they are doing.
Thats my personal feeling on things. WoW was a great game at start and over time with WotLK seems to have gone down hill and lost the enjoyment of playing that it had.
Just like everything else people hate about WoW (no need to read quest text, handholding map, cast auras to let you know your spell is ready, etc etc) gearscore started as an add-on.
People really don't give other gamers credit for being the culprits of a lot of insidious and terrible additions to MMO's. Glowy ground quest trail? Add-on. Threat/DPS meters? Add-on Enemy cast bars? Add-on. And so on.
It was players and investors who really ruined the genre. The players because they did exactly what humans do, optimize and push efficiency to it's limit until there was no mystery left. Even with new games, you only have X amount of time before all the guides and videos are everywhere and everyone expects you to know everything before doing it. Real fun. That's literally where challenge is - figuring it out for yourself. All these internet guides and resources are basically game genie.
And then you have the money men who just want to make a quick buck and don't give two squats about gaming. People keep talking about "WoW clones." Wow clones are to WoW what I am to Batman. Do I fight crime? No. Do I have a bat suit? No. Am I a billionaire? No. Are my parents dead? No. But I am a human white male, so therefore . . . Batman clone!
Every so called WoW clone is nothing but a pale shadow of WoW (some with 1-2 nice features to set them apart, but falling flat in every other area). But you know the funniest thing about this thread and threads like it? Hypocrisy. People whine and cry about WoW constantly, but as soon as that next xpac comes out these forums are slower than molasses cause everyone is right back to WoW (until they complete most of the new content, then they're right back to crying about WoW).
There's a lot to reply to, wasn't able to post all day due to some obligations.
First off I'll say Aesperus hit on the point I was making fairly well. If you haven't read his post do so:)
What Eclipse2g said is fairly interesting, have any links where I could read up on that? because that could go a long way to reinforcing my point:). I'd never heard of that before.
To those who disagree with my point, fair enough, as I said I was making assumptions, I understand what that means. I have no proof of any of this, it's simply part looking for what keeps people coming back to WOW from everything else, part anecdotal evidence based on common forums posts over the years.
Overall I feel it bred a good discussion, I guess that's all that matters in the end. Thanks for keeping the dialogue intelligent, and keeping the flames at bay.
@Rusque nah, you won't see me going back to WOW, I haven't set foot in that game since the vanilla era.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Do you ever stop spouting the same nonsense? You do realize your full of it right? Wow did not improve anything except minor things like chats, guilds, lfg tools, and pvp. The only thing it really did was appeal to the casual market and created a huge solo experience with minor grouping elements.
I loved eq and I agree with you we need a balance of new and old ideas rather then simply just hardcore, but mmorpgs need that sense of adventure and danger eq had to be truly meaningful, to feel like your in a virtual world to a point you have to pay attention, there is a fine line between to much and to freaken casual.
Right before WoW came out, back when every tabletop gaming store had a computer cafe and most homes didnt have a pc, I remember people spending a few hundred dollars a month(people on fixed incomes) to get access to a pc to play EQ. Never Rest Ever Crack destroyed lives lol that game stole souls lol I know people who still to this day and have been captured by that game and wont play/do anything else.
What WoW did different was made a game that was much easier to play, and with conditioning designed for the average person and not computer geeks. I remember in SWG every character on the screen could look very different, the lag was horrible in large pvp fights, more like something out of Eve then WoW. You had to have a good computer to play, the UI was not easy to use like WoWs. Games have been addictive since forever, what set WoW apart was Blizzard was the first company to think MMORPGS could be bigger then geeks and computer nerds and made a game for a much larger customer base.
If offered more for the hardcore, but people I knew who didn't even play every day, had kids jobs, and balancing school still played, and when they did play, they had a blast. There was nothing preventing players from playing casually, its just that people have it in their head now that if they play a game, they are entitled to experiencing everything even if they aren't as good or don't play as often. Before this way of thinking became popular, people were more than happy with what they were capable of experiencing even playing a hard game casually.
Well I dont know, games like the elder scroll games you can play more casually then eq1, I think eq1 was a bit to far into to play casually.
IMO, I think EQ benefited from the novelty of the MMORPG experience coupled with the early stages of online avatar collaboration and communications with other gamers. It's hard to prove (although not really necessary because I applaud industries that capitalize at the right time) but I believe we can't ignore that EQ just had good timing with various experiences that it offered. The new game experience with others greatly nullified the cons others have mentioned.
But times have changed more so around gaming than the games themselves. They way online communication is performed these days without the need to being in game together, coupled with gamers/guilds/clans +15 years of establishment, I have a hard time seeing people enjoying the same older EQ experience/excitement with a modern EQ style, hardcore or casual.
Just my opinion though.
Like Robokapp said, WoW didn't create it. I've said it in other ways over the years, but all Blizzard did was to exploit what was there.
While i agree with you, especially on the personal responsibility, the game absolutely has the "ability" to ruin players.
When they knowingly pray on psychological or physiological traits there is something wrong with that. Governments have traditionally regulated this kind of activity, like when cigarette companies had ad's targetting kids because they knew they would get them hooked on it for life, due to its addictive nature.
The issue comes down to where do you draw the line between personal responsibility and predatory practices?
Some people have ridiculous assertions (I.e. bloomberg and his limiting soda sizes BS), and others are on the opposite end of the spectrum, almost anarchist, etc.
I definitely think that modern MMO's, particularly a lot of the F2P games, and ESPECIALLY things like farmville, don't even try to hide the fact that they're preying on these traits of humanity, and to me thats predatory and should be regulated. At least to the point that maybe there is a warning of some sort so that people can't say they weren't aware of it. (i.e. cigarettes).
I would never support the gov't stepping in to the point of banning these acitivities, but i do think there is some room for improvement as far as educating people, etc.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche