I responded to the spirit of the question by the OP. You are of course free to disagree.
In your enthusiasm for reaction however, you've gone too far afield into the woods.
I'm not sure the OP's question had the spirit of ignoring logic though. He at least poses an opinion within the bounds of possibility.
So if we "come back home" to your original implication that Kotick somehow forced millions of players to play a game they dislike (or that good game design is somehow "unhealthy" for us,) then that still leaves us at a place where what you said makes no sense whatsoever.
Re-read my post.
I'm quite sure I didn't say Kotick "forced" anyone to play the game. And "good game design" can be very subjective. I'm more in the camp that "modern" MMOs aren't particularly well designed.
MacDonalds is vastly more well known than the family restaurant near me, TV spots, Toys, lots more revenue, more people moving through it.. Their food however sucks in comparison to that family restaurant.
And as is the case with people, as far as seeing "sense" or not . . .
Before MMORPGs, genres used reasonably paced rewards.
Early MMORPGs used extremely slow-paced rewards (largely to sell more subscription time.)
WOW, and post-WOW MMORPGs used reasonably paced rewards.
WOW wasn't the aberration. Early MMORPGs were.
Isn't there also a difference between the devices studios use though? Look at Bioware compared to Blizzard (not just their modern games, more so the older games). BG VS Diablo as an example, isn't Biowares main device basically story elements? They've never really focused on the loot game all that much. Itemization is something they offer less of than most. Same could be said of Bethesda vs Blizz. The devices made to string you along are different. It's not really about Prizes like it is in Diablo. I think there's a difference in expectation created based on which you play more.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Isn't there also a difference between the devices studios use though? Look at Bioware compared to Blizzard (not just their modern games, more so the older games). BG VS Diablo as an example, isn't Biowares main device basically story elements? They've never really focused on the loot game all that much. Itemization is something they offer less of than most. Same could be said of Bethesda vs Blizz. The devices made to string you along are different. It's not really about Prizes like it is in Diablo. I think there's a difference in expectation created based on which you play more.
Well anyone who tries to sum up an entire game in one word is going to end up with "story" for Bioware RPGs, sure. But that's an oversimplification. Rewards are always a mix, and by KOTOR (2003) Bioware's loot systems were reasonably strong. Just because they weren't as strong as Blizzard's loot systems doesn't mean they weren't rewards.
So yeah the best type of reward found in any given game can vary, even though their overall psychological influence remains the same.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I responded to the spirit of the question by the OP. You are of course free to disagree.
In your enthusiasm for reaction however, you've gone too far afield into the woods.
I'm not sure the OP's question had the spirit of ignoring logic though. He at least poses an opinion within the bounds of possibility.
So if we "come back home" to your original implication that Kotick somehow forced millions of players to play a game they dislike (or that good game design is somehow "unhealthy" for us,) then that still leaves us at a place where what you said makes no sense whatsoever.
Re-read my post.
I'm quite sure I didn't say Kotick "forced" anyone to play the game. And "good game design" can be very subjective. I'm more in the camp that "modern" MMOs aren't particularly well designed.
MacDonalds is vastly more well known than the family restaurant near me, TV spots, Toys, lots more revenue, more people moving through it.. Their food however sucks in comparison to that family restaurant.
And as is the case with people, as far as seeing "sense" or not . . .
. . . people always find what they look for.
I disagree that "good game design" is subjective. Game design includes aiming at a certain target audience. Good game design will produce a well accepted game for that specific audience and help to optimize profits. That is quite objective and measurable.
The opinion of people outside the target audience is mostly irrelevant and has nothing to do with the game being designed well or not. It wasn't designed for them, thus their dislike is based on their personal preferences not matching what the game is aiming for. They wouldn't like it in any case, well or badly designed doesn't matter. They just don't like that kind of game.
If you hate the taste of tomatoes, it doesn't matter how juicy they are, you will still hate them.
I'm quite sure I didn't say Kotick "forced" anyone to play the game. And "good game design" can be very subjective. I'm more in the camp that "modern" MMOs aren't particularly well designed.
MacDonalds is vastly more well known than the family restaurant near me, TV spots, Toys, lots more revenue, more people moving through it.. Their food however sucks in comparison to that family restaurant.
And as is the case with people, as far as seeing "sense" or not . . .
. . . people always find what they look for.
The problem being that since you admit Kotick didn't force anyone to play WOW, that implies people were able to make their own choice and overwhelmingly chose WOW.
The problem with the McD's analogy is that McD's popularity is based around its cost and convenience. Meanwhile when you compare the costs of MMORPGs, WOW is among the costliest. So it's like if you lived in an area and yeah there's a McD's too and some people eat there, but EVERYONE eats at the Expensive Steak Restaurant, in spite of its cost, because it's delicious.
If there was a superior option which was cheaper, players would flock to it. There isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
However since wotlk and in fact more or less in line with activision involvement the cadance increased significantly in WOW to a point far far beyond early WOW, Older mmo and all other modern AAA MMO.
Imagine you stopped playing ESO, GW2, WOW, LOTR for 6 months then return and join a battleground. Note the difference in playability in WOW compared to any other of the titles i.e unplayable because the power level differential. Worse, then consider the amount of content that caused that power gain, was it real content, or was it just increases in ilevel boosts to items. That is the Blizzard legacy, vaporware masked with ilevel and achievement points, all for the pricely sum of 1 billion a year.
How precisely are you claiming WOW is "unplayable" due to power level difference? Were you unable to group/quest your way to endgame? Were you unable to queue for LFR and participate meaningfully to start gearing into normal raiding? And then once you started raiding, wasn't everyone just in LFR/crafted-tier gear so that you all basically started on even footing?
Certainly there's progression beyond that starting point of serious raiding and in that portion of the game power difference starts to accumulate in a meaningful way. But it sort of needs to, unless you're claiming that WOW's hardest challenges shouldn't come with stronger rewards.
I wouldn't really imagine myself joining a battleground in any MMORPG. MMORPG PVP is universally trash. PVP which involves significant amounts of progression (ie all RPG PVP) is for casual players. The content that caused that power gain is definitely content. It can be weaker/cheaper content than some forms, but we can't just say it's not content. I mean there's the ilvl 30 version of the sword and the ilvl 40 version of it. Two separate swords. You had to do two separate things to get them, and they had different stats.
Please learn what "vaporware" actually means before using it again.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You just miss entirely that it's not Blizzard that set gamers into a perpetual need for rewards - that is fundamental to human psychology.
Exactly.
People forget (or fail to realize in the first place) that Skinner's experiment didn't create a psychological need, it simply revealed a natural trait of human psychology. The same is true of games, whether they're called Skinner Boxes or not. Because every single successful game is built upon some kind of rewards, whether or not they're discrete items/weapons you can acquire and use.
Yet the skinner box is just kind of stupid to imply. You do a quest and you get a magic item, is that skinner box or just playing the game?
Would you prefer some quests give you major set-backs like you lose a level or all your gold? No you wouldn't. You want to move forward in game play, is that skinner box or just the natural progression of these games? Do devs notice that players like the things they get rewarded for over things that set-back the players? Would devs then take that information and consider adding rewards and removing set-backs? Certainly they would. Is it some kind of grand conspiracy to program weak minded players into play games? I don't think so.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
However since wotlk and in fact more or less in line with activision involvement the cadance increased significantly in WOW to a point far far beyond early WOW, Older mmo and all other modern AAA MMO.
Imagine you stopped playing ESO, GW2, WOW, LOTR for 6 months then return and join a battleground. Note the difference in playability in WOW compared to any other of the titles i.e unplayable because the power level differential. Worse, then consider the amount of content that caused that power gain, was it real content, or was it just increases in ilevel boosts to items. That is the Blizzard legacy, vaporware masked with ilevel and achievement points, all for the pricely sum of 1 billion a year.
How precisely are you claiming WOW is "unplayable" due to power level difference? Were you unable to group/quest your way to endgame? Were you unable to queue for LFR and participate meaningfully to start gearing into normal raiding? And then once you started raiding, wasn't everyone just in LFR/crafted-tier gear so that you all basically started on even footing?
Certainly there's progression beyond that starting point of serious raiding and in that portion of the game power difference starts to accumulate in a meaningful way. But it sort of needs to, unless you're claiming that WOW's hardest challenges shouldn't come with stronger rewards.
I wouldn't really imagine myself joining a battleground in any MMORPG. MMORPG PVP is universally trash. PVP which involves significant amounts of progression (ie all RPG PVP) is for casual players. The content that caused that power gain is definitely content. It can be weaker/cheaper content than some forms, but we can't just say it's not content. I mean there's the ilvl 30 version of the sword and the ilvl 40 version of it. Two separate swords. You had to do two separate things to get them, and they had different stats.
Please learn what "vaporware" actually means before using it again.
'How precisely are you claiming WOW is "unplayable" due to power level difference?' I will repeat precisely - Battleground, not raids, group pvp and entirely unplayable due to power differential exactly as i said and everyone who plays wow knows fine well. Outside of WOW many play mmorpg that are not focused on raids, Raiding is not the be all and end all in mmoRPG.
As for vaporware, 12+ months with 0 content for a billion pounds investment apart from some tweaks and ilevel increases - yes vaporware, no content, nada, token gestures. If you are going to argue wow players were happy about this, well not much i can say about that. You want to see what non-vaporware is why don't you have a look at the release rate for FF14.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Yet the skinner box is just kind of stupid to imply. You do a quest and you get a magic item, is that skinner box or just playing the game?
Would you prefer some quests give you major set-backs like you lose a level or all your gold? No you wouldn't. You want to move forward in game play, is that skinner box or just the natural progression of these games? Do devs notice that players like the things they get rewarded for over things that set-back the players? Would devs then take that information and consider adding rewards and removing set-backs? Certainly they would. Is it some kind of grand conspiracy to program weak minded players into play games? I don't think so.
Skinner's experiment revealed a basic psychological trait which is a factor in nearly every experience we have. So yes, it's stupid to call anything a skinner box, because (a) only skinner boxes are skinner boxes and (b) the pyschological trait revealed by his experiment is a factor in all our experiences (and it definitely wouldn't make sense to go around calling everything a skinner box.)
Skinner's work also included punishment as a stimulus. It's true that players seek to avoid losing levels or gold, but that's still operant conditioning.
This means if we called a mostly-reinforcement game a skinner box (and we shouldn't) then we'd also call a game that uses more punishment a skinner box.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
'How precisely are you claiming WOW is "unplayable" due to power level difference?' I will repeat precisely - Battleground, not raids, group pvp and entirely unplayable due to power differential exactly as i said and everyone who plays wow knows fine well. Outside of WOW many play mmorpg that are not focused on raids, Raiding is not the be all and end all in mmoRPG.
As for vaporware, 12+ months with 0 content for a billion pounds investment apart from some tweaks and ilevel increases - yes vaporware, no content, nada, token gestures. If you are going to argue wow players were happy about this, well not much i can say about that. You want to see what non-vaporware is why don't you have a look at the release rate for FF14.
No, seriously. I'm trying to help you avoid looking like a fool here. Vaporware's meaning is not vague. It's not hard to understand. It's a product which is announced but not manufactured nor officially cancelled. "Oh gosh it's been 12 months since my fully-featured, playable game has had new content" is not even remotely vaporware.
As for your battlegrounds comments, why limit yourself to talking about WOW? You're describing a trait which ruins MMORPG PVP universally. All RPGs (MMO or not) have vertical progression, and that's the factor that ruins PVP. So yes, MMORPG PVP is universally unplayable. But no, nothing WOW specifically did caused that -- it's simply the product of being an RPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
'How precisely are you claiming WOW is "unplayable" due to power level difference?' I will repeat precisely - Battleground, not raids, group pvp and entirely unplayable due to power differential exactly as i said and everyone who plays wow knows fine well. Outside of WOW many play mmorpg that are not focused on raids, Raiding is not the be all and end all in mmoRPG.
As for vaporware, 12+ months with 0 content for a billion pounds investment apart from some tweaks and ilevel increases - yes vaporware, no content, nada, token gestures. If you are going to argue wow players were happy about this, well not much i can say about that. You want to see what non-vaporware is why don't you have a look at the release rate for FF14.
No, seriously. I'm trying to help you avoid looking like a fool here. Vaporware's meaning is not vague. It's not hard to understand. It's a product which is announced but not manufactured nor officially cancelled. "Oh gosh it's been 12 months since my fully-featured, playable game has had new content" is not even remotely vaporware.
As for your battlegrounds comments, why limit yourself to talking about WOW? You're describing a trait which ruins MMORPG PVP universally. All RPGs (MMO or not) have vertical progression, and that's the factor that ruins PVP. So yes, MMORPG PVP is universally unplayable. But no, nothing WOW specifically did caused that -- it's simply the product of being an RPG.
I know what the dictionary definition of vaporware means, so yes technically you are correct well done, so yes blizzard didn't 'announce' anything so its not vaporware, they just infer that they will provide timely content. No content is no content whatever way you spin it, and increaseing numbers is not content (remember, increase ilevel boost to existing gear)
As for battlegrounds I limit myself to WOW because that's what this thread is about. Walk into GW2 after a year and you can carry right on where you left of, same with ESO and others no doubt. Not for Wow, it is most certainly not universal. Blizzard most certainly did raise the cadance of power gain way beyond anything seen before, and we all know why so lets not play dumb. Technically this was due to the introduction of tiered difficulty levels and tokens and the 'need' to constantly reward for all levels and the trap that caused. so yes a veteran hitting a new player for 5-800k and one shotting him while he hits back for 10k is not good design, but big numbers are fun right.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Yes wow most certainly ruined the gaming community.. wow gave us instant gratification for minimal effort.. now all those wow players moving to other games simply can not under stand or come to terms with the concept of earning and working hard to progress.
I know what the dictionary definition of vaporware means, so yes technically you are correct well done, so yes blizzard didn't 'announce' anything so its not vaporware, they just infer that they will provide timely content. No content is no content whatever way you spin it, and increaseing numbers is not content (remember, increase ilevel boost to existing gear)
As for battlegrounds I limit myself to WOW because that's what this thread is about. Walk into GW2 after a year and you can carry right on where you left of, same with ESO and others no doubt. Not for Wow, it is most certainly not universal. Blizzard most certainly did raise the cadance of power gain way beyond anything seen before, and we all know why so lets not play dumb. Technically this was due to the introduction of tiered difficulty levels and tokens and the 'need' to constantly reward for all levels and the trap that caused. so yes a veteran hitting a new player for 5-800k and one shotting him while he hits back for 10k is not good design, but big numbers are fun right.
The thread is about how WOW relates to other MMORPGs. To explore the question we'd logically need to establish contrasting traits of MMORPGs, so that we're discussing how WOW changed the genre and/or the expectations of gamers. You would think someone was crazy for going off on a big tirade about how leveling ruined WOW in this thread, because leveling exists in some form in every MMORPG out there (so it's not a contrasting trait.) The same is true of discussing BGs without discussing other MMORPGs.
So if we're discussing Battlegrounds...
the contrast: earlier MMORPGs didn't even have them. (They had open world PVP, which allowed even worse non-skill advantages, which created even worse PVP quality.)
the change: WOW had them. (Which enforced balanced teams, which created better PVP.)
the change in expectations: I don't think it changed expectations much. The bulk of serious PVPers are still off playing pure PVP genres where no significant non-skill factors are involved. The bulk of casual PVPers don't care (so they enjoy MMORPG PVP), and in some cases they actually want the non-skill factors (it lets them win in MMORPG PVP where they wouldn't win in a purely skill-based game.)
We've already discussed why we wouldn't discuss MMORPG PVP in any event, but if we did we'd point out WOW had nothing to do with it since it was GW1 and GW2 that have pushed for changes there, so Blizzard couldn't have possibly "ruined" anything there.
We already established how early MMORPGs had awful reward cadence, and Blizzard increased the cadence to be more similar to that of non-MMORPGs. So nobody's playing dumb; in fact what you're restating here was already stated in my earlier post.
As for your "no content in over a year" comments...
Blackrock raid: Feb 3 - Mar 24 release dates (Feb 3 is 28 days after Jan 6)
Hellfire raid: Jun 23 - Aug 25 release dates (Jun 23 is 91 days after Mar 24)
So you just need to drop that part of the discussion entirely. Every part of it (from "vaporware" to "no content in over a year") is objectively false, with evidence shown. Your only hope would be to claim that you're posting from Mercury (the planet), where the year is just 88 earth days.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So to cut a wall of text short. Wow has a great delivery rate In relation to other MMO, wow does not have problems with item scaling, we must disregard pvp BG because you don't like it, they have not increased the cadance beyond any other game, and the content droughts are imaginary. Your deluded or work for blizzard, who knows!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
It really depends on what you mean by MMO gamers. So many new people entered the genre with WoW, that you cant really say they were different before WoW came around, because they started with WoW. There's no pre-WoW control for the majority of MMO players nowadays.
The thing you really need to look at, is the people who played MMOs before WoW, and how they play MMOs now, if they still do. Then you need to try and exclude the changes that may have occured due to the passage of time/life.
It's not something that can even come close to having an answer.
Originally posted by Bladestrom So to cut a wall of text short. Wow has a great delivery rate In relation to other MMO, wow does not have problems with item scaling, we must disregard pvp BG because you don't like it, they have not increased the cadance beyond any other game, and the content droughts are imaginary. Your deluded or work for blizzard, who knows!
I've provided evidence that you're wrong. You haven't provided evidence that I'm wrong. So any personal insults ("deluded") you fling my way are baseless. I've strongly established my case. You haven't established yours at all.
You have three options:
Remain ignorant. Ignore the fact that I've provided strong evidence that you're wrong. Ignore the fact that you've provided no evidence you're right. Continue to mistakenly believe you're right.
Provide evidence. If I'm actually wrong, there will be evidence. Find it. Post it. Everyone will see you're right.
Realize you're wrong. Accept reality.
So feel free to post evidence of a game with equal-or-better quality content released at an equal-or-faster rate as WOW's 119 days for 3 raids.
Then step back and realize you haven't done enough by finding one example. If your implication was WOW didn't have the absolute best content cadence, one example would be enough. But your implication seems to be that WOW's content cadence is below average. This means if there are 10 major MMORPGs you'll need 5 examples of games putting out content faster than WOW.
Maybe you'll find one example. (Maybe.) But you definitely won't find enough examples to show that WOW's content cadence is slow or below average relative to the rest of the market.
As for the PVP stuff, "RPG" implies vertical progression which is a non-skill factor. So it's bad PVP by definition, except for the small casual audience interested in PVP which involves less skill.
We didn't "disregard" BGs. They're literally the one feature I covered in full detail last post. Go back and read it, I guess. WOW improved PVP in MMORPGs as much as was possible (by balancing teams via BGs) but it inevitably didn't change expectations of the genre significantly because PVP isn't the focus of these games (the serious PVPers are playing different genres.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
WOW certainly did change things but I think what changed, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, is who the gamer is now.
Back before WOW I was a tabletop RPG'er and one of those 'loser nerds' that people at school disliked because we liked to read, understood how computers worked, didn't see fashion as being that important and generally lived life to our own expectations rather then others.
Then along comes the Internet sensation, computers become household items for many reasons other then gaming and suddenly all the things people labelled as 'geeky' or 'sad' became the fashion. Then comes WOW with it's big advertising campaign and 'cool' stuff and suddenly all the geeky kids who have been roleplaying for the last 20 years and computing for just as long are surrounded by a mass of clueless people who are now 'roleplaying' and 'gaming'.
RPG's got taken over by the modern gamer who just plain out miss the point of an RPG.
Just because McDonalds make a 'gourmet' burger it doesn't mean anyone who orders one understands the meaning of fine dining!
Originally posted by Adamai Yes wow most certainly ruined the gaming community.. wow gave us instant gratification for minimal effort.. now all those wow players moving to other games simply can not under stand or come to terms with the concept of earning and working hard to progress.
Thats only partly true. The people who enjoy playing hard to earn things haven't stopped liking those things. Some have compromised and adapted, others who cannot or do not want to adapt are just waiting for something worthwhile to come out. It's not like WoW has changed most of those players into people who must have easy games, they've just accepted the circumstances and decided to play anyway. Many others, myself included, have stopped playing MMOs altogether.
Casual games will always exist, and always be popular, but they've been in a decline for years now because they've replicated the same formula with minimal changes too many times. Its becoming increasing apparent with the number of people playing games outside of the MMO genre that there are people that want to play online games, just not the kind of MMOs that are currently being offered. Its only a matter of time before games that are different start popping up and players, new and old, flock to them.
Originally posted by Bladestrom So to cut a wall of text short. Wow has a great delivery rate In relation to other MMO, wow does not have problems with item scaling, we must disregard pvp BG because you don't like it, they have not increased the cadance beyond any other game, and the content droughts are imaginary. Your deluded or work for blizzard, who knows!
I've provided evidence that you're wrong. You haven't provided evidence that I'm wrong. So any personal insults ("deluded") you fling my way are baseless. I've strongly established my case. You haven't established yours at all.
You have three options:
Remain ignorant. Ignore the fact that I've provided strong evidence that you're wrong. Ignore the fact that you've provided no evidence you're right. Continue to mistakenly believe you're right.
Provide evidence. If I'm actually wrong, there will be evidence. Find it. Post it. Everyone will see you're right.
Realize you're wrong. Accept reality.
So feel free to post evidence of a game with equal-or-better quality content released at an equal-or-faster rate as WOW's 119 days for 3 raids.
Then step back and realize you haven't done enough by finding one example. If your implication was WOW didn't have the absolute best content cadence, one example would be enough. But your implication seems to be that WOW's content cadence is below average. This means if there are 10 major MMORPGs you'll need 5 examples of games putting out content faster than WOW.
Maybe you'll find one example. (Maybe.) But you definitely won't find enough examples to show that WOW's content cadence is slow or below average relative to the rest of the market.
As for the PVP stuff, "RPG" implies vertical progression which is a non-skill factor. So it's bad PVP by definition, except for the small casual audience interested in PVP which involves less skill.
We didn't "disregard" BGs. They're literally the one feature I covered in full detail last post. Go back and read it, I guess. WOW improved PVP in MMORPGs as much as was possible (by balancing teams via BGs) but it inevitably didn't change expectations of the genre significantly because PVP isn't the focus of these games (the serious PVPers are playing different genres.)
Battlegrounds was an example given as it is one of the features of mmos that is most sensitive to power issues, but you didnt get that did you, your too busy trying to be clever.
Its no wonder Blizzard feel like that can get away with their profiteering when people defend it so, i feel for the real fans.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Battlegrounds was an example given as it is one of the features of mmos that is most sensitive to power issues, but you didnt get that did you, your too busy trying to be clever.
Its no wonder Blizzard feel like that can get away with their profiteering when people defend it so, i feel for the real fans.
The root issue you're describing is "vertical progression reduces PVP quality." That issue is independent of BGs, so BGs are not an example.
Vertical progression hurt PVP quality before WOW, and it hurt it after WOW and Battlegrounds. Nothing changed regarding that particular issue.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Battlegrounds was an example given as it is one of the features of mmos that is most sensitive to power issues, but you didnt get that did you, your too busy trying to be clever.
Its no wonder Blizzard feel like that can get away with their profiteering when people defend it so, i feel for the real fans.
The root issue you're describing is "vertical progression reduces PVP quality." That issue is independent of BGs, so BGs are not an example.
Vertical progression hurt PVP quality before WOW, and it hurt it after WOW and Battlegrounds. Nothing changed regarding that particular issue.
yup ofc it is, and as i said a million words ago BG's are particularly sensitive to power curves and are therefore a great measure of a games imbalance, and can be simply demonstrated.
Walk into ESO, GW2, WOW in entry level epic gear and note the massive difference in playability. In fact note WOW is unplayable, unless you are like playing the victim ofc. Anyone who has not been under a rock in the last 20 years and played more than 1 game knows this.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
yup ofc it is, and as i said a million words ago BG's are particularly sensitive to power curves and are therefore a great measure of a games imbalance, and can be simply demonstrated.
Walk into ESO, GW2, WOW in entry level epic gear and note the massive difference in playability. In fact note WOW is unplayable, unless you are like playing the victim ofc. Anyone who has not been under a rock in the last 20 years and played more than 1 game knows this.
...so you're agreeing that WOW didn't change this...right?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Re-read my post.
I'm quite sure I didn't say Kotick "forced" anyone to play the game. And "good game design" can be very subjective. I'm more in the camp that "modern" MMOs aren't particularly well designed.
MacDonalds is vastly more well known than the family restaurant near me, TV spots, Toys, lots more revenue, more people moving through it.. Their food however sucks in comparison to that family restaurant.
And as is the case with people, as far as seeing "sense" or not . . .
. . . people always find what they look for.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Isn't there also a difference between the devices studios use though? Look at Bioware compared to Blizzard (not just their modern games, more so the older games). BG VS Diablo as an example, isn't Biowares main device basically story elements? They've never really focused on the loot game all that much. Itemization is something they offer less of than most. Same could be said of Bethesda vs Blizz. The devices made to string you along are different. It's not really about Prizes like it is in Diablo. I think there's a difference in expectation created based on which you play more.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well anyone who tries to sum up an entire game in one word is going to end up with "story" for Bioware RPGs, sure. But that's an oversimplification. Rewards are always a mix, and by KOTOR (2003) Bioware's loot systems were reasonably strong. Just because they weren't as strong as Blizzard's loot systems doesn't mean they weren't rewards.
So yeah the best type of reward found in any given game can vary, even though their overall psychological influence remains the same.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I disagree that "good game design" is subjective. Game design includes aiming at a certain target audience. Good game design will produce a well accepted game for that specific audience and help to optimize profits. That is quite objective and measurable.
The opinion of people outside the target audience is mostly irrelevant and has nothing to do with the game being designed well or not. It wasn't designed for them, thus their dislike is based on their personal preferences not matching what the game is aiming for. They wouldn't like it in any case, well or badly designed doesn't matter. They just don't like that kind of game.
If you hate the taste of tomatoes, it doesn't matter how juicy they are, you will still hate them.
The problem being that since you admit Kotick didn't force anyone to play WOW, that implies people were able to make their own choice and overwhelmingly chose WOW.
The problem with the McD's analogy is that McD's popularity is based around its cost and convenience. Meanwhile when you compare the costs of MMORPGs, WOW is among the costliest. So it's like if you lived in an area and yeah there's a McD's too and some people eat there, but EVERYONE eats at the Expensive Steak Restaurant, in spite of its cost, because it's delicious.
If there was a superior option which was cheaper, players would flock to it. There isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
How precisely are you claiming WOW is "unplayable" due to power level difference? Were you unable to group/quest your way to endgame? Were you unable to queue for LFR and participate meaningfully to start gearing into normal raiding? And then once you started raiding, wasn't everyone just in LFR/crafted-tier gear so that you all basically started on even footing?
Certainly there's progression beyond that starting point of serious raiding and in that portion of the game power difference starts to accumulate in a meaningful way. But it sort of needs to, unless you're claiming that WOW's hardest challenges shouldn't come with stronger rewards.
I wouldn't really imagine myself joining a battleground in any MMORPG. MMORPG PVP is universally trash. PVP which involves significant amounts of progression (ie all RPG PVP) is for casual players. The content that caused that power gain is definitely content. It can be weaker/cheaper content than some forms, but we can't just say it's not content. I mean there's the ilvl 30 version of the sword and the ilvl 40 version of it. Two separate swords. You had to do two separate things to get them, and they had different stats.
Please learn what "vaporware" actually means before using it again.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Yet the skinner box is just kind of stupid to imply. You do a quest and you get a magic item, is that skinner box or just playing the game?
Would you prefer some quests give you major set-backs like you lose a level or all your gold? No you wouldn't. You want to move forward in game play, is that skinner box or just the natural progression of these games? Do devs notice that players like the things they get rewarded for over things that set-back the players? Would devs then take that information and consider adding rewards and removing set-backs? Certainly they would. Is it some kind of grand conspiracy to program weak minded players into play games? I don't think so.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
'How precisely are you claiming WOW is "unplayable" due to power level difference?' I will repeat precisely - Battleground, not raids, group pvp and entirely unplayable due to power differential exactly as i said and everyone who plays wow knows fine well. Outside of WOW many play mmorpg that are not focused on raids, Raiding is not the be all and end all in mmoRPG.
As for vaporware, 12+ months with 0 content for a billion pounds investment apart from some tweaks and ilevel increases - yes vaporware, no content, nada, token gestures. If you are going to argue wow players were happy about this, well not much i can say about that. You want to see what non-vaporware is why don't you have a look at the release rate for FF14.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Skinner's experiment revealed a basic psychological trait which is a factor in nearly every experience we have. So yes, it's stupid to call anything a skinner box, because (a) only skinner boxes are skinner boxes and (b) the pyschological trait revealed by his experiment is a factor in all our experiences (and it definitely wouldn't make sense to go around calling everything a skinner box.)
Skinner's work also included punishment as a stimulus. It's true that players seek to avoid losing levels or gold, but that's still operant conditioning.
This means if we called a mostly-reinforcement game a skinner box (and we shouldn't) then we'd also call a game that uses more punishment a skinner box.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
No, seriously. I'm trying to help you avoid looking like a fool here. Vaporware's meaning is not vague. It's not hard to understand. It's a product which is announced but not manufactured nor officially cancelled. "Oh gosh it's been 12 months since my fully-featured, playable game has had new content" is not even remotely vaporware.
As for your battlegrounds comments, why limit yourself to talking about WOW? You're describing a trait which ruins MMORPG PVP universally. All RPGs (MMO or not) have vertical progression, and that's the factor that ruins PVP. So yes, MMORPG PVP is universally unplayable. But no, nothing WOW specifically did caused that -- it's simply the product of being an RPG.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I know what the dictionary definition of vaporware means, so yes technically you are correct well done, so yes blizzard didn't 'announce' anything so its not vaporware, they just infer that they will provide timely content. No content is no content whatever way you spin it, and increaseing numbers is not content (remember, increase ilevel boost to existing gear)
As for battlegrounds I limit myself to WOW because that's what this thread is about. Walk into GW2 after a year and you can carry right on where you left of, same with ESO and others no doubt. Not for Wow, it is most certainly not universal. Blizzard most certainly did raise the cadance of power gain way beyond anything seen before, and we all know why so lets not play dumb. Technically this was due to the introduction of tiered difficulty levels and tokens and the 'need' to constantly reward for all levels and the trap that caused. so yes a veteran hitting a new player for 5-800k and one shotting him while he hits back for 10k is not good design, but big numbers are fun right.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
It really depends on what you mean by MMO gamers. So many new people entered the genre with WoW, that you cant really say they were different before WoW came around, because they started with WoW. There's no pre-WoW control for the majority of MMO players nowadays.
The thing you really need to look at, is the people who played MMOs before WoW, and how they play MMOs now, if they still do. Then you need to try and exclude the changes that may have occured due to the passage of time/life.
It's not something that can even come close to having an answer.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
WOW certainly did change things but I think what changed, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, is who the gamer is now.
Back before WOW I was a tabletop RPG'er and one of those 'loser nerds' that people at school disliked because we liked to read, understood how computers worked, didn't see fashion as being that important and generally lived life to our own expectations rather then others.
Then along comes the Internet sensation, computers become household items for many reasons other then gaming and suddenly all the things people labelled as 'geeky' or 'sad' became the fashion. Then comes WOW with it's big advertising campaign and 'cool' stuff and suddenly all the geeky kids who have been roleplaying for the last 20 years and computing for just as long are surrounded by a mass of clueless people who are now 'roleplaying' and 'gaming'.
RPG's got taken over by the modern gamer who just plain out miss the point of an RPG.
Just because McDonalds make a 'gourmet' burger it doesn't mean anyone who orders one understands the meaning of fine dining!
Thats only partly true. The people who enjoy playing hard to earn things haven't stopped liking those things. Some have compromised and adapted, others who cannot or do not want to adapt are just waiting for something worthwhile to come out. It's not like WoW has changed most of those players into people who must have easy games, they've just accepted the circumstances and decided to play anyway. Many others, myself included, have stopped playing MMOs altogether.
Casual games will always exist, and always be popular, but they've been in a decline for years now because they've replicated the same formula with minimal changes too many times. Its becoming increasing apparent with the number of people playing games outside of the MMO genre that there are people that want to play online games, just not the kind of MMOs that are currently being offered. Its only a matter of time before games that are different start popping up and players, new and old, flock to them.
Battlegrounds was an example given as it is one of the features of mmos that is most sensitive to power issues, but you didnt get that did you, your too busy trying to be clever.
Its no wonder Blizzard feel like that can get away with their profiteering when people defend it so, i feel for the real fans.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
The root issue you're describing is "vertical progression reduces PVP quality." That issue is independent of BGs, so BGs are not an example.
Vertical progression hurt PVP quality before WOW, and it hurt it after WOW and Battlegrounds. Nothing changed regarding that particular issue.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
yup ofc it is, and as i said a million words ago BG's are particularly sensitive to power curves and are therefore a great measure of a games imbalance, and can be simply demonstrated.
Walk into ESO, GW2, WOW in entry level epic gear and note the massive difference in playability. In fact note WOW is unplayable, unless you are like playing the victim ofc. Anyone who has not been under a rock in the last 20 years and played more than 1 game knows this.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
...so you're agreeing that WOW didn't change this...right?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver