And it's not like we were preventing people from playing. We're just fighting against a product, that we consider to have a negative impact on the market.
In the end, whatever we say, people can try the game and see for themselves. I personally just warn them about fallacious statements, like "you shouldn't judge the game badly, it's not released yet" or "don't compare it with other games, they have a smaller budget".
Good point, as soon as a company starts charging for their game, then they can be judged on the current condition of the game, what may or may not happen to the game in the future is entirely irrelevant, as what people are getting for what they are paying right now, is the only thing that has any bearing.
Personally i won't touch another of these early access games, they rarely live up to the hype, and usually all that is left is a list of complaints about why things went wrong, i'd rather wait until they finish a game before playing it now, and there are very very few exceptions that i would consider breaking that rule for, and Pathfinder Online, is very definitely not one of them.
And it's not like we were preventing people from playing. We're just fighting against a product, that we consider to have a negative impact on the market.
In the end, whatever we say, people can try the game and see for themselves. I personally just warn them about fallacious statements, like "you shouldn't judge the game badly, it's not released yet" or "don't compare it with other games, they have a smaller budget".
Bingo. I fully support the right of people to buy Nestle products.
I'm still going to hate Nestle as a corporation. I'm still going to inform you that if you buy Nestle products you are buying food pumped full of chemicals that extremely unhealthy for you and supporting a corporation who is buying up water rights in drought areas and doesn't believe water is a basic human right. I'm still going to say that's evil, and that if you purchase their products knowing those facts it reflects poorly on your character. Basically that you are willing to support the screwing over of the planet and your fellow humans to save a bit of money on your grocery bill.
I'm going to tell you all that, but I'm not going to fight against your right to do so.
Pathfinder Online is taking money from a lot of people and pumping it into a game with no chance of success. They are hiding the sub numbers and how far they are in the hole from their customers and prospective costumers. Meanwhile the community keeps trying to drag new people onto this sinking ship for 15$ a month promising the ability to "take part in the development" of a game that likely won't be here in a few years and selling them kickstarter accounts for hundreds of dollars. They also make no effort to make people aware of the alternatives to this game that have much better chances of success.
Sorry PFO fans, someone has to make sure this info gets out there, but I support your right to flush 15$ a month down the toilet.
Your opinions and recommendations, about any given product, are as valid as anyone's. In the end a product must stand on it's own merits.
Now if your condemnation of a product is so weak that you need to twist anything written about it and use it to get your point across, well that is "weak sauce." If the product is that terrible, false or misleading info and statements should not be needed, should they?
Now if your condemnation of a product is so weak that you need to be a dick to anyone that has a more favorable opinion about that product, well that just shows fear (that others might disagree) and some pretty weak debate/discussion skills...
AGAIN (how many times written?), the game is not ready, by any means, for ALL MMO players to try. Some (most) do not feel the same way, or "get' what is so fun and interesting about Pathfinder Online.
There definitely are SOME that do find it interesting and fun to play. Those people find value, for themselves in the subscription at this stage in the development. That does not make them looney, paid game hype pros, dumb, clueless, or evil and deceptive.
It just makes them people that like something more than you do.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/ Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms. Are You Ready to Smite Evil? ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
Originally posted by BringsliteIf the product is that terrible, false or misleading info and statements should not be needed, should they?
Your point of view is that we are making false or misleading statements, which is exactly the impression you give us.
But indeed, now that there is a free trial, there isn't much point anymore in advising people against the game. It was very useful when you had to pay 45 or 30$ to try it, but not really anymore.
I fail to see where anything I've been saying about PFO is false or misleading. Only in Ryan Dancey and the PFO fanboy's delusions.
The people putting out false and misleading statements are the people talking about how unique it is, how it's the only game of its class, which is straight up false. Or telling people they are taking part in the formation of the game or building XP for their permanent character without the disclaimer "While GW hasn't shown us any subscriber data it's extremely likely they are bleeding money faster than they are bringing it in at the moment, so you are taking a gamble as to whether this game will even be here in few years or not". Because that's misleading to tell people they are building for a future when that future very likely won't exist.
I'm putting out the cold hard reality which no matter how much it ticks people off, is still a viewpoint much more grounded in reality than that PFO will actually go somewhere.
I fail to see where anything I've been saying about PFO is false or misleading. Only in Ryan Dancey and the PFO fanboy's delusions.
The people putting out false and misleading statements are the people talking about how unique it is, how it's the only game of its class, which is straight up false. Or telling people they are taking part in the formation of the game or building XP for their permanent character without the disclaimer "While GW hasn't shown us any subscriber data it's extremely likely they are bleeding money faster than they are bringing it in at the moment, so you are taking a gamble as to whether this game will even be here in few years or not". Because that's misleading to tell people they are building for a future when that future very likely won't exist.
I'm putting out the cold hard reality which no matter how much it ticks people off, is still a viewpoint much more grounded in reality than that PFO will actually go somewhere.
Actually Andius, I should have been more specific. In general, I will agree that you give a review that is not full of twisted Dev quotes, etc... Your opinions are as valid for debate as any other, and opinions are just that: How someone feels about what they see for sale. They can't be right or wrong when they are opinions. They can have a majority or minority of readers that agree or disagree.
I will go on record as having written that your personal attacks are not my favorite when I read them. To be fair.... YOU ALSO RECIEVED THAT KIND OF NEGATIVE RESPONCE ON THE PAIZO FORUMS <YOURSELF>. No one's hands are totally clean here. For any part that I had in that, I publically apologize. There are better ways to do things.
You are not the only poster here. My post was not a direct opinion about how YOU alone, post.
There are some things that I (IMO) see as very non constructive (almost like there is a personal mission rather than an opinion), happening on this particular forum.
1. Completely false info: People posting things like "You have to be one of the Big 2 or 3 to even have a chance to put down and run your own Holdings...."
2. Some posters sharing their opinions and being pretty much attacked and insulted for their opinion. Should the discussion be about why a person's opinion is akin to being the abused half of a bad relationship? Is that constructive, relevant, or .... even really what one poster here wrote? Yeah.
3. How about taking things written by developers, twisting them out of context, and then defending (to the bitter end) that they are doing no such thing at all?
4. How about being told (by several posters) that because you do not have a long post history on this very charming site, that anything you post has basically no worth?
Lol, is that how you shoot a game down these days?
Outstanding!
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/ Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms. Are You Ready to Smite Evil? ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
4. How about being told (by several posters) that because you do not have a long post history on this very charming site, that anything you post has basically no worth?
This is the only part I will comment on. I'm not sure why you ignore the explanation, but when your entire post history is related to Pathfidner Online and it starts the day that their CEO blames his players for not recruiting more and specifically points them to this forum, people are going to receive anything you post with skepticism. Not all people, but many... I would even go as far as to say most. That certainly doesn't mean your posts have no worth but it means they are viewed through a lens of perception based on that info.
Let me also be clear that SOME people who advocate for the game also might be doing so for personal gain. Here is an example so you cannot claim it's a misleading statement:
The guy who wrote the "Unofficial Guide to PFO" that is currently linked by GW on their forums also has written the "Guide to Buying a Backdated Account" where he tries to persuade people about the worth of accounts that have paid a sub since day one. Miraculously, shortly after publishing this "Guide" he also listed his own account for sale on Ebay (with a $1000 buy out LOL)
Like I said, there is more than enough reason to justify SKEPTICISM.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Two points. First the Pathfinder Online community likes throw the word opinion around a lot even when words like hypothesis and theory are much better used in their place. I'm assuming because the word opinion envokes a feeling of "can't be wrong" in some people. If my opinion is that red is a better color than blue and you believe the opposite neither of us is right or wrong and there is no real basis for argument unless you are talking about specific uses for those colors.
Where in contrast my theory/hypothesis that Pathfinder Online will fail is based on information such as the fact that I've heard people talk about playing all night and running all over the map without seeing someone, and that I have yet to hear of any event with more than 43 people ever, or more than 20-30 since alpha. And with the game's supporters saying that it needs a minimum of 50k a month (which translates into 3,333 and one third subscriptions) to pay the wages, which I assume Caldeathe has some reason for saying, it seems like you are falling WAY short of the sub numbers needed to keep the current staff on once the kickstarter and investor money runs out.
I feel something further supporting this argument is how I have repeatedly posted it here and on the Paizo boards and there has been no GW response / that GW has not made it's average online players or sub numbers public as many MMOs do. We know Ryan watches these boards. So I were wrong, wouldn't you as Ryan come on and say something like "We actually have 4000 subscribers and are above the margin needed to turn a profit" if that were the case. I know Ryan could care less about my opinion but I am trashing him in-front of potential players who's opinions I'm sure he does care about. His silence in this case, tells me that I am right because concealing the information is better than having it public if the info looks bad.
That hypothesis/theory is in-fact more valid than any hypothesis/theory which cannot site facts of equal or greater relevancy.
Or perhaps you are talking about my simple opinion this game is not good. I'll put it this way. If you love burgers, who's opinion would you assign more credit to?
A. The person who has never eaten a sandwich.
B. The person who has tried many sandwiches but very few if any burgers.
C. The person who loves burgers and has been trying the best burgers they could find all over for many years.
Any reasonable person is going to answer C.
The Pathfinder Online community is thee most ignorant community in terms of other sandbox games I have ever seen by a factor of several-fold. When engaging with other sandbox communities when I talk about games like Darkfall, Mortal Online, and even EVE the number of people who have any kind of intimate knowledge of those games is pathetically low compared to other sandbox communities. When you talk about other upcoming games such as Star Citizen, Crowfall, Life is Feudal etc. the number of people who truly know anything about those games is pathetically low compared to other sandbox communities.
This is my basis for the argument that the Pathfinder Online community has no taste, and people shouldn't be basing their decisions off the fact Harenloot and Mbando are having fun. They are options A and B when it comes to sandbox MMOs. People really need to try more "burgers" before they settle on the one that PFO is offering because most of the people who fall into option C are getting their "burgers" elsewhere, and they are doing so for a reason.
____________________________________
Finally I think your term "abuse" / "abused women" is sensationalist, inaccurate, and hopefully not as intentionally deceitful and even slanderous as it is coming across. I used the term "deadbeat". Which to me implies the kind of guy who sits on the couch playing Xbox and refusing to find a job and then quits the scene as soon as he learns the girl is pregnant. Your use of the word abused conjurers images of a bruised up woman raising her arm in defense as the man repeatedly beats her.
My analogy as Pathfinder Online users being like the girl with a deadbeat boyfriend is because you continually fail to hold Pathinder Online to any kind of standards and very passionately/angrily shout down anyone who points out it's many glaring faults (In this context the "you" I am referring to is the PFO community as a whole). You just blindly go on denying that it's a crap game just like the girl with the deadbeat boyfriend continually refuses to hold him to any kind of standards and will get angry with anyone that points out his faults.
It's a harsh image, but one I feel is very accurate. However I do not believe you are "abused" by Pathfinder Online which is why I have never used that word.
Comments
Good point, as soon as a company starts charging for their game, then they can be judged on the current condition of the game, what may or may not happen to the game in the future is entirely irrelevant, as what people are getting for what they are paying right now, is the only thing that has any bearing.
Personally i won't touch another of these early access games, they rarely live up to the hype, and usually all that is left is a list of complaints about why things went wrong, i'd rather wait until they finish a game before playing it now, and there are very very few exceptions that i would consider breaking that rule for, and Pathfinder Online, is very definitely not one of them.
Bingo. I fully support the right of people to buy Nestle products.
I'm still going to hate Nestle as a corporation. I'm still going to inform you that if you buy Nestle products you are buying food pumped full of chemicals that extremely unhealthy for you and supporting a corporation who is buying up water rights in drought areas and doesn't believe water is a basic human right. I'm still going to say that's evil, and that if you purchase their products knowing those facts it reflects poorly on your character. Basically that you are willing to support the screwing over of the planet and your fellow humans to save a bit of money on your grocery bill.
I'm going to tell you all that, but I'm not going to fight against your right to do so.
Pathfinder Online is taking money from a lot of people and pumping it into a game with no chance of success. They are hiding the sub numbers and how far they are in the hole from their customers and prospective costumers. Meanwhile the community keeps trying to drag new people onto this sinking ship for 15$ a month promising the ability to "take part in the development" of a game that likely won't be here in a few years and selling them kickstarter accounts for hundreds of dollars. They also make no effort to make people aware of the alternatives to this game that have much better chances of success.
Sorry PFO fans, someone has to make sure this info gets out there, but I support your right to flush 15$ a month down the toilet.
Absolutely!
Your opinions and recommendations, about any given product, are as valid as anyone's. In the end a product must stand on it's own merits.
Now if your condemnation of a product is so weak that you need to twist anything written about it and use it to get your point across, well that is "weak sauce." If the product is that terrible, false or misleading info and statements should not be needed, should they?
Now if your condemnation of a product is so weak that you need to be a dick to anyone that has a more favorable opinion about that product, well that just shows fear (that others might disagree) and some pretty weak debate/discussion skills...
AGAIN (how many times written?), the game is not ready, by any means, for ALL MMO players to try. Some (most) do not feel the same way, or "get' what is so fun and interesting about Pathfinder Online.
There definitely are SOME that do find it interesting and fun to play. Those people find value, for themselves in the subscription at this stage in the development. That does not make them looney, paid game hype pros, dumb, clueless, or evil and deceptive.
It just makes them people that like something more than you do.
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
Your point of view is that we are making false or misleading statements, which is exactly the impression you give us.
But indeed, now that there is a free trial, there isn't much point anymore in advising people against the game. It was very useful when you had to pay 45 or 30$ to try it, but not really anymore.
I fail to see where anything I've been saying about PFO is false or misleading. Only in Ryan Dancey and the PFO fanboy's delusions.
The people putting out false and misleading statements are the people talking about how unique it is, how it's the only game of its class, which is straight up false. Or telling people they are taking part in the formation of the game or building XP for their permanent character without the disclaimer "While GW hasn't shown us any subscriber data it's extremely likely they are bleeding money faster than they are bringing it in at the moment, so you are taking a gamble as to whether this game will even be here in few years or not". Because that's misleading to tell people they are building for a future when that future very likely won't exist.
I'm putting out the cold hard reality which no matter how much it ticks people off, is still a viewpoint much more grounded in reality than that PFO will actually go somewhere.
Actually Andius, I should have been more specific. In general, I will agree that you give a review that is not full of twisted Dev quotes, etc... Your opinions are as valid for debate as any other, and opinions are just that: How someone feels about what they see for sale. They can't be right or wrong when they are opinions. They can have a majority or minority of readers that agree or disagree.
I will go on record as having written that your personal attacks are not my favorite when I read them. To be fair.... YOU ALSO RECIEVED THAT KIND OF NEGATIVE RESPONCE ON THE PAIZO FORUMS <YOURSELF>. No one's hands are totally clean here. For any part that I had in that, I publically apologize. There are better ways to do things.
You are not the only poster here. My post was not a direct opinion about how YOU alone, post.
There are some things that I (IMO) see as very non constructive (almost like there is a personal mission rather than an opinion), happening on this particular forum.
1. Completely false info: People posting things like "You have to be one of the Big 2 or 3 to even have a chance to put down and run your own Holdings...."
2. Some posters sharing their opinions and being pretty much attacked and insulted for their opinion. Should the discussion be about why a person's opinion is akin to being the abused half of a bad relationship? Is that constructive, relevant, or .... even really what one poster here wrote? Yeah.
3. How about taking things written by developers, twisting them out of context, and then defending (to the bitter end) that they are doing no such thing at all?
4. How about being told (by several posters) that because you do not have a long post history on this very charming site, that anything you post has basically no worth?
Lol, is that how you shoot a game down these days?
Outstanding!
No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com
This is the only part I will comment on. I'm not sure why you ignore the explanation, but when your entire post history is related to Pathfidner Online and it starts the day that their CEO blames his players for not recruiting more and specifically points them to this forum, people are going to receive anything you post with skepticism. Not all people, but many... I would even go as far as to say most. That certainly doesn't mean your posts have no worth but it means they are viewed through a lens of perception based on that info.
Let me also be clear that SOME people who advocate for the game also might be doing so for personal gain. Here is an example so you cannot claim it's a misleading statement:
The guy who wrote the "Unofficial Guide to PFO" that is currently linked by GW on their forums also has written the "Guide to Buying a Backdated Account" where he tries to persuade people about the worth of accounts that have paid a sub since day one. Miraculously, shortly after publishing this "Guide" he also listed his own account for sale on Ebay (with a $1000 buy out LOL)
Like I said, there is more than enough reason to justify SKEPTICISM.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Two points. First the Pathfinder Online community likes throw the word opinion around a lot even when words like hypothesis and theory are much better used in their place. I'm assuming because the word opinion envokes a feeling of "can't be wrong" in some people. If my opinion is that red is a better color than blue and you believe the opposite neither of us is right or wrong and there is no real basis for argument unless you are talking about specific uses for those colors.
Where in contrast my theory/hypothesis that Pathfinder Online will fail is based on information such as the fact that I've heard people talk about playing all night and running all over the map without seeing someone, and that I have yet to hear of any event with more than 43 people ever, or more than 20-30 since alpha. And with the game's supporters saying that it needs a minimum of 50k a month (which translates into 3,333 and one third subscriptions) to pay the wages, which I assume Caldeathe has some reason for saying, it seems like you are falling WAY short of the sub numbers needed to keep the current staff on once the kickstarter and investor money runs out.
I feel something further supporting this argument is how I have repeatedly posted it here and on the Paizo boards and there has been no GW response / that GW has not made it's average online players or sub numbers public as many MMOs do. We know Ryan watches these boards. So I were wrong, wouldn't you as Ryan come on and say something like "We actually have 4000 subscribers and are above the margin needed to turn a profit" if that were the case. I know Ryan could care less about my opinion but I am trashing him in-front of potential players who's opinions I'm sure he does care about. His silence in this case, tells me that I am right because concealing the information is better than having it public if the info looks bad.
That hypothesis/theory is in-fact more valid than any hypothesis/theory which cannot site facts of equal or greater relevancy.
Or perhaps you are talking about my simple opinion this game is not good. I'll put it this way. If you love burgers, who's opinion would you assign more credit to?
A. The person who has never eaten a sandwich.
B. The person who has tried many sandwiches but very few if any burgers.
C. The person who loves burgers and has been trying the best burgers they could find all over for many years.
Any reasonable person is going to answer C.
The Pathfinder Online community is thee most ignorant community in terms of other sandbox games I have ever seen by a factor of several-fold. When engaging with other sandbox communities when I talk about games like Darkfall, Mortal Online, and even EVE the number of people who have any kind of intimate knowledge of those games is pathetically low compared to other sandbox communities. When you talk about other upcoming games such as Star Citizen, Crowfall, Life is Feudal etc. the number of people who truly know anything about those games is pathetically low compared to other sandbox communities.
This is my basis for the argument that the Pathfinder Online community has no taste, and people shouldn't be basing their decisions off the fact Harenloot and Mbando are having fun. They are options A and B when it comes to sandbox MMOs. People really need to try more "burgers" before they settle on the one that PFO is offering because most of the people who fall into option C are getting their "burgers" elsewhere, and they are doing so for a reason.
____________________________________
Finally I think your term "abuse" / "abused women" is sensationalist, inaccurate, and hopefully not as intentionally deceitful and even slanderous as it is coming across. I used the term "deadbeat". Which to me implies the kind of guy who sits on the couch playing Xbox and refusing to find a job and then quits the scene as soon as he learns the girl is pregnant. Your use of the word abused conjurers images of a bruised up woman raising her arm in defense as the man repeatedly beats her.
My analogy as Pathfinder Online users being like the girl with a deadbeat boyfriend is because you continually fail to hold Pathinder Online to any kind of standards and very passionately/angrily shout down anyone who points out it's many glaring faults (In this context the "you" I am referring to is the PFO community as a whole). You just blindly go on denying that it's a crap game just like the girl with the deadbeat boyfriend continually refuses to hold him to any kind of standards and will get angry with anyone that points out his faults.
It's a harsh image, but one I feel is very accurate. However I do not believe you are "abused" by Pathfinder Online which is why I have never used that word.