Let me finish before you jump to conclusions. Please !
Vanilla WoW did it right, and they did it wayyyy back in 2004. It's 2015. How could mmos have gone backwards, I would have never expected that in a million years.
At first I would have thought stupidity, close mindedness, but no. Something else happened that none of us expected. Greed profit margin, bloated cost, and simply do the most you can with as little as possible and let marketing and advertisement sell the game ( remember pre-warhammer ).
The time of Vanguard was the change over point. It's the exact time where things began to go wrong for the players !
Developers and programmers started off with a vision. GOOD GAME OR NOT IS NOT THE POINT. This is about the "vision" not the game. It's not about a few screwball coding practices, but about the 'vision".
Vanguard was to be the Ultimate world. It was to take EverQuest and World of Warcraft and take it to the next level for everyone. With a huge world, crafting so deep and beyond its time, and diplomacy for something to distract players from everything else if the player chose. It had the largest world ever, with several unique starting zones. It was to be seamless, bad coding but seamless none the less. Lets not forget both PvP and PvE servers.
This was the "vision". The vision was to be released with the full complement. The full complement at release deserves to be mentioned twice, and its own paragraph because it's that important.
But NO. Development was stopped and the game was released. It was not done, period !!......It's like buying half a car !.....Then crazy politics took over in the background that were not in the players interest for further development. Nothing what's-so-ever for the player. Implosion would be the best way to describe it.
******** Every mmo after changed, subtracting the fighting between the developers and Investers. INVESTERS simply took full control. The arguing ended, it was set in stone. Developers were to shut up and program.
Now going back to World of Warcraft. It almost seems Blizzard not only had good developers, programmers and a large money pool. But they had the best foresight ever in the history of gamming.
Foresight ?.....What the hell is this guy even talking about, you ask yourself !.....It's the ability to sit back and think of what players of all kinds would want in there mmo. REALLY REALLY THINK. It's almost like Blizzard had social workers and philosophers on the payroll. Now your saying this guy is crazy, a real loon ....But think about that game back in 2004. It' was fun for everyone. WoW was soooo deep you can be 8 years old, create a character and have some simple fun. Yet you can be an MIT or Harvard Graduate and deeply develop your character to be the ultimate fighter for the hardest Raids.
You can play around with the fetch four apples for Maggie's famous apple pies in Goldshire, or take on Deadmines at level 17 with only 3 players if you had the right, well thought out plan......Or you can simply hang out in the safety of Ironforge.
Now you can say this about any mmo but WoW took easy to hard and something for everyone to a higher degree. And yes, back in 2004. You can't have F2P in an mmo. This changes the fair playing field. Foresight is replaced by greed.
Games with Foresight :
- World of Warcraft
- Vanguard
- EverQuest 2
- A few I missed.
Games without Foresight:
- The Secret World ( forced story driven )
- FF14 ( forced story driven )
- Elders Scrolls Online ( forced story driven )
- Wildstar( only for the silly )
-StarWars The Old Republic (forced story driven )
- And most every other mmo beyond 2009.
Important :
I better add this......An mmo would have to be very large to have something for everyone. Earlier mmos' seem to have been larger.
Vangaurd was a horrible launch and that is why it did not do well, mmorpgs with a bad launch has a 80 percent chance of surviving down the road unless they advertise correctly and enough people praise the updates. And when it comes to mmorpgs yes people want freedom they want choices for the most part, and that is why themepark mmorpgs should be labeled different, anyways we need more mmos like vangaurd there are plenty of themepark mmorpgs out there.
Also tsw and eso may be story driven but they have classless system and plenty of depth rpg wise where you get plenty of choices and choices in the story as well they are not as themeparked as other mmos, there kind of a nice balance.
I can't really say much for TSW. Group puzzles and story telling is not my cup of tea in an mmo. I actually may play it some day, and I'll think of it as a good single player game.
BUT Elders Scrolls Online- Ha....This is how it plays out :
Up to level 3 the game plays for you with it's dialog, 4-10 you move across the screen from left to right or bottom to top as you gain levels. At level 10 your strong enough to run the entire zone and harvest.
Then the game will allow you to move on to the DESINAGATED 11-20 area to move from left to right every two more levels until your level 20, now you can again run the entire zone to harvest with out fear of dying.
A little added tip.....Do your personal story line every few levels to keep the story level at the proper character level. Because this is how developers have the game set up for you
Use the Dungeon finder to utilize the mega sever purpose of making the game an mmo so you can play along side other people. Cause don't forget, every time you turn your computer on you have a new set of strangers running around solo. The biggest kicker of all ?....You don't know who they are....NOOOOO name plates Who is thatttttt !
One of the most on-rails mmos ever made. Developer controlled. Text book for forced content.
This is not the true Elders Scrolls way........It's not the mmo way....It's nothing, maybe some sort of hybrid something.
If you had stuck it out you would have seen the world expand out, e.g when you get to 50 your skills have expanded such that you can freely wander new zones in their entirety. Then there's WVW with its huge running battles with hundreds of players., the end game in ESO. Ironically rails are self imposed by many who have been conditioned by on rail games because that's what they have learned, Its blindingly obvious when an ex WOW/Rift player tries something different, they seek patterns that are ingrained in their skulls and in the same breath complain when they find it. Ask yourself, why did you not try to avoid going left to right or whatever it was you were doing, many others managed it. Did you wander freely? Did you experiment with builds to create defensive builds to allow you to tank higher levels etc? Ask yourself what stopped you from going straight to where you fancies going on the map instead of your zig zagging?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
If you had stuck it out you would have seen the world expand out, e.g when you get to 50 your skills have expanded such that you can freely wander new zones in their entirety. Then there's WVW with its huge running battles with hundreds of players., the end game in ESO. Ironically rails are self imposed by many who have been conditioned by on rail games because that's what they have learned, Its blindingly obvious when an ex WOW/Rift player tries something different, they seek patterns that are ingrained in their skulls and in the same breath complain when they find it. Ask yourself, why did you not try to avoid going left to right or whatever it was you were doing, many others managed it. Did you wander freely? Did you experiment with builds to create defensive builds to allow you to tank higher levels etc? Ask yourself what stopped you from going straight to where you fancies going on the map instead of your zig zagging?
Maybe so, Maybe so after 50, but I made it to around 30 in this lonely game that's on rails up to 50. No bouncing around to other zones, your not allowed variety and with choices.
Damm, I'm about to catch hell for this but :
Vanilla WoW, you have the entire zone of Westfall for 10 levels, do anything you like there. If you absolutely hate Westfall, go to Loch Moden or Darkshore and do what ever you want . Dungeons are many deep and lengthly, spend 10 whole levels in Dungeons !.......Again if your totally discussed, play a Horde !
If it just purly sucks play Vanguard or FF11 or EQ2 or even Darkfall if your a PVPer and love a strong grind to be competitive, I do have to say GW2 has some freedom, but it's just not for me. They will all give you freedom. I guess EVE is the same, play that.
But I challenge you to show me other more recent mmo's with choices.
Ok wait a second, you just mentioned something about linear mmorpgs but you have something against puzzles and quests that are not kill x and bring back y? I am a little confused on that. Also with eso you literally just described almost every mmo ive ever played even ones like eq, you level and move on to the next area how is that not included in every mmorpg hek even every single player rpg?
Originally posted by moonbound Ok wait a second, you just mentioned something about linear mmorpgs but you have something against puzzles and quests that are not kill x and bring back y? I am a little confused on that. Also with eso you literally just described almost every mmo ive ever played even ones like eq, you level and move on to the next area how is that not included in every mmorpg hek even every single player rpg?
I guess this is two questions :
1) I personally don't like puzzles in mmos, that's just me. BUT that aside, if your referring to the Secret World. That's story telling you how to play that takes away freedom and choices. Hay, maybe I'm even wrong about TSW. I haven't played it yet....So yes I may be guessing. But Youtubes tell me I'm not.
2) ESO is liner 100% ( however maybe not after 50 )
- You will move left to right when your in the so called instanced open world.
- When your DO make it all the way to the right, the left side is easy to harvest because your going back on rails and the content is easy. So now you can harvest.....Rails !
- YOU WILL DO your story line. If not you will pay a price if you very off the curse set for you.
Vanguard, Vanilla WoW, EQ2 FF11, GW2, and I think EvE. You have freedom of the entire area. And choices of several alternet zones to play, or Deep Dungeons that can be practlly lived in with many to pick from....Do what you like.
I've moved across the screen and up and down sometimes diagonally as well in not only every single video game I've ever played but every single thing I've ever done on a computer.
Weird.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
This is where most MMO's fail today imo. WoW, when it was released, probably had in the area of 50-100 days of content. That's right, not hours, DAYS. There was so much stuff to do in WoW it was mind boggling. Today's MMO's are built like single player games, you power through the levels see the content and leave. Vanilla WoW was an adventure, you evolved your character over the course of months/years making friends, enemies, getting to know the people on your sever, tackling the fairly unforgiving world, that's right back in the day you could actually die lol. WoW was successful for me because it allowed me to play how I wanted to play. I love small group content, WoW's dungeons were perfect for me, I leveled my first character, a priest healer, almost entirely in dungeons. It took me 20 days of played time and I loved every minute of it. If you love doing quests you can do that and not touch any dungeons they'll keep you occupied for months and you'll still not even hit half the quests before you max level. If you love crafting and playing the auction house you can do that too. People love to hate on WoW and chalk it up to good advertising and such that led to it's success. They may be partially right but I believe word of mouth sold WoW, I know myself personally got at least 15-20 people to at least try it, with many continuing to play to this day. I can't say that about any other game that's released in the past 10 years.
WoW was my favorite game lots of great memories and friends but they've bastardized it to the point I can't even recognize it anymore. The over casualization and simply lack of compelling content is ruining MMO's today, everything is all about easy, fast, cheap, trying to make you into a special snowflake with achievements and world saving storylines, which quite frankly I could care less about. Leave that for single player games, give me back a world to get lost in and let me carve out a niche for myself and some close friends.
This is where most MMO's fail today imo. WoW, when it was released, probably had in the area of 50-100 days of content. That's right, not hours, DAYS. There was so much stuff to do in WoW it was mind boggling. Today's MMO's are built like single player games, you power through the levels see the content and leave. Vanilla WoW was an adventure, you evolved your character over the course of months/years making friends, enemies, getting to know the people on your sever, tackling the fairly unforgiving world, that's right back in the day you could actually die lol. WoW was successful for me because it allowed me to play how I wanted to play. I love small group content, WoW's dungeons were perfect for me, I leveled my first character, a priest healer, almost entirely in dungeons. It took me 20 days of played time and I loved every minute of it. If you love doing quests you can do that and not touch any dungeons they'll keep you occupied for months and you'll still not even hit half the quests before you max level. If you love crafting and playing the auction house you can do that too. People love to hate on WoW and chalk it up to good advertising and such that led to it's success. They may be partially right but I believe word of mouth sold WoW, I know myself personally got at least 15-20 people to at least try it, with many continuing to play to this day. I can't say that about any other game that's released in the past 10 years.
WoW was my favorite game lots of great memories and friends but they've bastardized it to the point I can't even recognize it anymore. The over casualization and simply lack of compelling content is ruining MMO's today, everything is all about easy, fast, cheap, trying to make you into a special snowflake with achievements and world saving storylines, which quite frankly I could care less about. Leave that for single player games, give me back a world to get lost in and let me carve out a niche for myself and some close friends.
It is indeed a lot faster to run through the content today than 2004 but that honestly is something Wow started. Leveling up in games like Everquest or Meridian was something very different. In fact it was a tad slow which Wow fixed but it did go too far already at launch. Since then Wow and every other game have speeded the progress to a level where getting a max level toon is just a matter of days if you play a lot instead of months or in some cases years.
But I fail to see what this has to do with the thread, if a MMO should be made for everyone or one or a few types of specific players. Levelingspeed and amount of content have been discussed in many threads on this forum after all.
And I still say: Focus on one or a few groups of players. Make an easy open world game, a harder game focused on dungeons & raids or maybe something with mainly PvP but don't try to give us everything, it will just make the content so-so for everyone instead of awesome for the right players.
Even Wow put most of it's focus on casual open worlders nowadays, it is their largest group of players and most new content is made for them. Sure, there are some dungeons and raids, even a bit of PvP but content wise they aren't getting that much.
This is where most MMO's fail today imo. WoW, when it was released, probably had in the area of 50-100 days of content. That's right, not hours, DAYS. There was so much stuff to do in WoW it was mind boggling. Today's MMO's are built like single player games, you power through the levels see the content and leave. Vanilla WoW was an adventure, you evolved your character over the course of months/years making friends, enemies, getting to know the people on your sever, tackling the fairly unforgiving world, that's right back in the day you could actually die lol. WoW was successful for me because it allowed me to play how I wanted to play. I love small group content, WoW's dungeons were perfect for me, I leveled my first character, a priest healer, almost entirely in dungeons. It took me 20 days of played time and I loved every minute of it. If you love doing quests you can do that and not touch any dungeons they'll keep you occupied for months and you'll still not even hit half the quests before you max level. If you love crafting and playing the auction house you can do that too. People love to hate on WoW and chalk it up to good advertising and such that led to it's success. They may be partially right but I believe word of mouth sold WoW, I know myself personally got at least 15-20 people to at least try it, with many continuing to play to this day. I can't say that about any other game that's released in the past 10 years.
WoW was my favorite game lots of great memories and friends but they've bastardized it to the point I can't even recognize it anymore. The over casualization and simply lack of compelling content is ruining MMO's today, everything is all about easy, fast, cheap, trying to make you into a special snowflake with achievements and world saving storylines, which quite frankly I could care less about. Leave that for single player games, give me back a world to get lost in and let me carve out a niche for myself and some close friends.
Man....Thank you so much. Your better than I
Variation is the key !.......WOW and a few other mmos had it
So much so, you never had to step foot in a Dungeon, ever.
- You had dungeon runners
- Raiders
- Solo's
- Auction experts.
- Stormwind hangers, talking crap
- The list can go on for ever !
I turned my much older friend on to World of Warcraft. He sucked at fighting anything. Why ? He wasn't interested. He loved the Auction, fishing and harvesting. That's all he talked about. I almost developed a nose bleed from his stories about his cash flow......Later on after years, he learned how to solo PVE and loved it
His Wife played different. She somehow found a woman's guild where they chatted all day, and at times did a few quest.
Me......Dungeons all the way, You can write a book on Maradon and The Sunken Temple and all it's little secrets !
Variety worked for older MMORPG's because of the lack of competition. In today's market you have games filling one niche better than the systems in the "Everyman MMO". The players that enjoyed variety in those early games, like non-combat activities, farming, crafting, economy, or only do PvP, can now find a game that caters purely to their interests without all the stuff they don't like. MMORPG's COULD be made for everyone, but at a massive cost to develop varied systems with the depth that players looking for niche gaming enjoy. A studio could make 4 individual, focused niche games without the restrictions of making it work all in the same MMO game engine, and of course the rampant complaints from players that don't enjoy half of their game.
The foresight Blizzard had was to produce a wide variety of game styles without much overlap. People who played Diablo or StarCraft or Warcraft could also sub to WoW. It has built a core base of "Blizzard fans". It's not like you are unsubbing from one Blizzard MMO for another Blizzard MMO. Cancelling Titan was a good idea as releasing another big MMO would be seen like an improvement and only hurt WoW's profit and shift it to Titan.
Originally posted by moonbound Ok wait a second, you just mentioned something about linear mmorpgs but you have something against puzzles and quests that are not kill x and bring back y? I am a little confused on that. Also with eso you literally just described almost every mmo ive ever played even ones like eq, you level and move on to the next area how is that not included in every mmorpg hek even every single player rpg?
I guess this is two questions :
1) I personally don't like puzzles in mmos, that's just me. BUT that aside, if your referring to the Secret World. That's story telling you how to play that takes away freedom and choices. Hay, maybe I'm even wrong about TSW. I haven't played it yet....So yes I may be guessing. But Youtubes tell me I'm not.
2) ESO is liner 100% ( however maybe not after 50 )
- You will move left to right when your in the so called instanced open world.
- When your DO make it all the way to the right, the left side is easy to harvest because your going back on rails and the content is easy. So now you can harvest.....Rails !
- YOU WILL DO your story line. If not you will pay a price if you very off the curse set for you.
Vanguard, Vanilla WoW, EQ2 FF11, GW2, and I think EvE. You have freedom of the entire area. And choices of several alternet zones to play, or Deep Dungeons that can be practlly lived in with many to pick from....Do what you like.
In the secret world you actually get allot more choices in what side quests you do and etc, and the game opens up more as you go, there are harder areas for the better gear you have, but as far as having freedom in choices in games like eq is exactly the same certain zones had certain levels and areas you could level just like most mmorpgs, the difference is eq didnt have many quests and was mostly just based around fighting.
The only reason why you feel there where choices is because some older mmorpgs didnt have any story telling at all which gets boring for most gamers, in games like the secret world you get to make choices in the main story but the side stuff you do not get to choose but its very good regardless. Anywho the secret world has zones, and a few instances depending on your missions and group stuff.
Vanguard did have much potential but was delivered like an old shoe with a fancy ribbon.
I think you have a good point. Things did seem to change a lot then. It's like it had some cosmic influence.
I remember my journey going from grind,grind,grind to give me freedom - hello every Indie sandbox no one plays, I'd like to be your friend.
Then I turned around and free to play had taken over.
No one earned anything, they bought it in the cash shop in the name of speed and efficiency.
In Rift I saw it even though it was a sub game. People had shit to do and the mundane no longer mattered. It was a rough road to get people to try to participate in the rift opening and closings but I don't remember people being so against informal efforts in WAR. They kind of started that with the group quests where contribution determined reward. You just happened upon it like the Rifts. Rift was the last game I played where people still impressed by dungeons. I got a staff in that game that was from raid content and one day didn't go by where people didn't whisper me about how nice it was. But then they brought in PVP rewards and people were doing that more often getting gear alone.
Maybe Rift was when it all went solo instead of group - at least the games I was playing I saw that. There was definitely a change at some point.
In the old LOTRO and Vanguard grouping was still heavy if not mandatory.
I don't just attribute MMO changes to the devs though. I see that the people have changed. It seemed like the people you met in the games had imagination and could make up their own goals. Now people need guides and want to know the fastest way to glory or how they can purchase it.
I really think that the extroverts found the introvert pocket of MMO gaming. And ever since they have been trying to push things that please them. More real world social tools, more 15 minute play windows, and game hopping like they people hop. The social butterflies came into the scene. They are the people who were off breeding while we were gaming. Now their time is short and they want to buy progression instead of make progression. It's a symptom of both their lives and personalities. They also bring in their vapid side with cosmetic collecting only to look better than you - not because they imagine themselves playing a Blacksmith. Also too they consider every game an MMO because the games aren't anything different to them than a MOBA. Those two things are worlds apart and these cumquats call them the same. I... just.... who are these people. That has to alert you somehow that their brains are wired to not get the intricacies.
I'm telling you - something definitely changed in MMO players. It used to be a club, now it's ... well... it's full of frat parties and the price of entry and progression can be virtually non-existent. The last few MMOs I played I had 0 people on my friends list. There is a lot of chaff out there and little wheat. Frankly, it really turns me off to play so many of them that I swore off free to play to avoid the masses. If I wanted to be in a damn bar listening to people talk about how drunk they are I wouldn't be playing an MMO in this fantasy land doing these fantasy activities for some greater good. And I sure in the hell am not going to pay to listen to that dribble I could get inside a bar because I think you need to be drunk to like it.
I feel, developers have total control over how players have to play.
Give them a personal story line, they have to do it.
Give them a Dungeon finder, everyone will use it, leaving server behind.
Give them a path to follow they will follow it.
I see what your saying about a friends list. Rift was impossible to play with others. NO ONE WAS EVER ON THE SAME CHAIN QUEST. I remember this kid followed me around for hours, We couldn't sync up.
Also, you level too fast to Keep friends !
It's hard to say, it's been so long since we had any freedom.
First of all NO vanilla Wow did not do it right,i lasted all but one day then scurried back to EQ2 for my linear questing and FFXI was still miles the better overall game.
Anyhow that is all opinions,this is an EASy one to reply to.
Instead of trying to cater to everyone,you give that choice in VARIOUS games instead of a various game.
Remember that old saying...jack of all trades master of none?Wel lso happens my fave mmorpg "FFXI" caters ONLY to PVE and grouping and that is how you build a better game.Then if you want a different game,so be it ,build a different game,but you CANNOT build a PVE PVP solo ,group,instance open world,zones etc etc,it ends up a mess.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
First of all NO vanilla Wow did not do it right,i lasted all but one day then scurried back to EQ2 for my linear questing and FFXI was still miles the better overall game.
Anyhow that is all opinions,this is an EASy one to reply to.
Instead of trying to cater to everyone,you give that choice in VARIOUS games instead of a various game.
Remember that old saying...jack of all trades master of none?Wel lso happens my fave mmorpg "FFXI" caters ONLY to PVE and grouping and that is how you build a better game.Then if you want a different game,so be it ,build a different game,but you CANNOT build a PVE PVP solo ,group,instance open world,zones etc etc,it ends up a mess.
World of Warcraft was not your style, I could respect that. After the OP were discussion about that here.
However the POINT being. You can play as a :
- Open world fighter, helper of the weak
- Solo player
- Group expert
- Dungeon expert
- Raid expert
- Completely just play the auction, harvest and trade
- Hang out in Stormwind and talk trash if that's your thing
- Run a Guild
- And the list goes on.
This can be done in WoW, Vanguard ( if it were done right ), EvE, LOTRO( before it was butchered ) EQ2.
Can you do this in newer mmos ?.....Yes but, half assed. Other than the obvious first two on the list, can only do cheap attempts and at the others. Dungeons are built to be short 20 min fast runs, built for speed and with a LFG TOOL. Nothing to be expert at, no secrets, nothing to talk about after. Auctions have no real value to them other than buy the next stage boots if you couldn't find them naturally in open world liner.
Run a Guild, be in a Guild ?....What's the point, games are liner, no need for co-operation in anyway. For what little guilds are left with, the Looking-for-group-tools took care of that.
World of Warcraft was a World
Vanguard was a World
EQ1 and 2 was a World
EvE is a World
FF11 is a World
LOTRO was a World
Log in and do as you feel !
World of Warcraft is just the best example that everyone can relate to, I'm talking about Vanilla WoW not the butchered thing we have now. I don't blame you if you hate it, but back then you had other choices of WORLDS TO LIVE IN.
I feel, developers have total control over how players have to play.
Give them a personal story line, they have to do it.
Give them a Dungeon finder, everyone will use it, leaving server behind.
Give them a path to follow they will follow it.
I see what your saying about a friends list. Rift was impossible to play with others. NO ONE WAS EVER ON THE SAME CHAIN QUEST. I remember this kid followed me around for hours, We couldn't sync up.
Also, you level too fast to Keep friends !
It's hard to say, it's been so long since we had any freedom.
As long as a personal story is optional, people will play it or skip it. I play GW2, some guildies have completed the personal story, others just did the tutorial and nothing else.
As for dungeon finders, many people still prefer to play with their guilds or with people they learn to know while playing.
Chain quests do suck if you want players to play together though, always have.
The thing is that as long as something is optional you still have freedom. If you need to play through something to advance to the next zone or to unlock PvP or whatever things are different.
A good MMO shouldn't force you to do anything excepot maybe complete the tutorial with your first character.
As for the leveling speed, it isn't the real problem. The real problem is the huge powergap most MMOs have that means a lvl 15 and a lvl 25 character can't do anything meaningful together. That problem will be around no matter how fast or slow people level up. There are fixes though, some games allow you to change your level (even if you often get useless loot). Others like GW2 levels you down to the right level for any given area. A better lpowergap would still be far better than either of course.
MMOs can surely be far better at offering freedom to choose what content you want to play, but the problem isn't a new one.Even in the first game you couldn't be competetive in PvP from the start and many of them forced you to play certain content to open up new zones which is pretty uncommon today.
In a good MMO is all content optional and you choose to play the parts you like. There might be few games around like that but it have always been like that.
OP ought to explain what is the point of claiming that games "could and should be for everyone", because afaik games are for everyone, all one need to do is to try something new and different, so OP's title doesn't really make any sense.
OP ought to explain what is the point of claiming that games "could and should be for everyone", because afaik games are for everyone, all one need to do is to try something new and different, so OP's title doesn't really make any sense.
You should probably educate yourself on basics like target market.
You could also argue that Braille books are "for everyone", but the reality is that they're an entertainment/education product designed for a specific niche, and not useful at all to those who can't read braille (which includes the vast majority of those of us who aren't blind.)
Games are the same way (just not as extreme.) Each appeals to a certain subset of players.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Good example, you could put pictures and words into a Braille book to try and grab the audiance with sight to get more money, but then then when the sequel is been 'developed' and the publisher has limited resource, what does he prioritise? Blind people are a limited market, improve the pictures and words to get more profit.
Now instead put in a publisher that specialises in Braille books and target blind customers specifically and therefore have revenue targets that reflect this market and the rest is obvious.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom Good example, you could put pictures and words into a Braille book to try and grab the audiance with sight to get more money, but then then when the sequel is been 'developed' and the publisher has limited resource, what does he prioritise? Blind people are a limited market, improve the pictures and words to get more profit.
Now instead put in a publisher that specialises in Braille books and target blind customers specifically and therefore have revenue targets that reflect this market and the rest is obvious.
Right, and they wouldn't try to tackle giant projects that were far above and beyond the known demand for braille books.
Just like how videogame publishers avoid tackling niche MMOs when they could do niche non-MMOs instead (ie smaller projects which are better suited to the demand for that type of game.) Sometimes, like int he case of sandbox games, the experience is better-suited to a non-MMO from a design perspective (since the experience revolves around letting you be master of the world with complete control, and that fundamentally becomes less possible the more players you involve in the experience.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You can't try to make 1 mmo to appease all types of mmo crowds.
Casuals didn't like Lineage 2 because it was too hard, and they couldn't stand being ganked. PVPers, and hardcore PVEers loved it because it was open world pvp anyone (with flag/flag-back/red-karma system), and it basically took you 2+ years to hit level cap and you had to level while working with a group.
Casuals loved WoW because they could accomplish whatever they wanted within a few minutes. PVPers disliked WoW, because of the factions and not being able to kill the player of who they choose, and the "carebear" of not loosing anything when you die. For the hardcore PVEers, you could basically hit level cap within a week by soloing and just do instance re-runs to try and gear yourself out, hence where is the hardcore?
Companies need to realize there are different crowds with different tastes, and stop trying to mainstream and overgeneralize everything. That is why there is nothing but garbage out on the market today. Companies need to select a target audience type, and stick to it without letting dumb critics dictate their game design.
You can of course but the problem is that a MMO for everyone needs equal amount of content for everyone and that content needs to be pretty massive. Well, that and you need mechanics that works for everyone as well which is pretty hard but not impossible.
Making a MMO for everyone that have 80% of it's content for casual open world players don't work even if it have been tried many time, all groups you make the game for deserves equal amount of the content.
It is far easier and cheaper to make a game for some players then everyone and then you can target the audience specifically with the mechanics, the lore and so on so I don't think you should try to make your game for everyone, not even Wow managed to get a majority of all types of players (like hardcore PvPers for example).
But saying something like that can't be done isn't right, it just not a good idea.
Right, and they wouldn't try to tackle giant projects that were far above and beyond the known demand for braille books.
Just like how videogame publishers avoid tackling niche MMOs when they could do niche non-MMOs instead (ie smaller projects which are better suited to the demand for that type of game.) Sometimes, like int he case of sandbox games, the experience is better-suited to a non-MMO from a design perspective (since the experience revolves around letting you be master of the world with complete control, and that fundamentally becomes less possible the more players you involve in the experience.)
Many players do have things they can add to the sandbox experience as well though. Building things together with other players for example is actually very fun.
The problem with most sandboxes is that they look far too much on UO instead of thinking for themselves and try out new ideas the players can build things together. Eve got this right and did something rather different from the rest small sandbox games with full loot and free for all PvP around, a model that worked in UO but never amounted anything since.
Stuff like making a large group of players building a fortified town together is very rewarding in itself and sandboxes should focus more on stuff like that and less on robbing noobs of their tiny belongings which is only fun for a rather small group of players that tend to become rather alone in an empty game after a while.
The real problem is frankly that the focus in single player sandboxes tend to be about you building stuff while the MMO sandboxes focus on you tearing things down which tend to be far less popular. I am not saying sandbox MMOs need to be about happy deers kissing fairies or some care bear stuff but the main point still should be creating stuff together instead of just being about tearing others S#¤%& down.
It is true that it is more expensive to make a MMO sandbox then a single player sandbox, but the rewards are greater as well if you get it right. Eve got it right, SWG was on the right track but botched it up during the way.
I think someone will do it far better in the future, long term is empire building generally more fun than scripted games. They just need to think outside the box (yeah, bad pun).
You can't try to make 1 mmo to appease all types of mmo crowds.
Casuals didn't like Lineage 2 because it was too hard, and they couldn't stand being ganked. PVPers, and hardcore PVEers loved it because it was open world pvp anyone (with flag/flag-back/red-karma system), and it basically took you 2+ years to hit level cap and you had to level while working with a group.
Casuals loved WoW because they could accomplish whatever they wanted within a few minutes. PVPers disliked WoW, because of the factions and not being able to kill the player of who they choose, and the "carebear" of not loosing anything when you die. For the hardcore PVEers, you could basically hit level cap within a week by soloing and just do instance re-runs to try and gear yourself out, hence where is the hardcore?
Companies need to realize there are different crowds with different tastes, and stop trying to mainstream and overgeneralize everything. That is why there is nothing but garbage out on the market today. Companies need to select a target audience type, and stick to it without letting dumb critics dictate their game design.
Let's be careful about calling L2 "too hard". Gamers didn't like L2 because it was timesink-intensive (poor fun and little content per hour spent.) PVPers didn't like L2 because it was casual PVP (PVP significantly impacted by non-skill factors lke gear and population.) In neither case was it "too hard". It was too empty (timesinks) or too casual (world PVP).
Similarly, we've already covered in the other thread (rather objectively) how while casuals can do a lot of things in WOW the upper tiers of play were some of the deepest gameplay found in MMORPGs. Surely you don't think every player in WOW is decked out in best-in-slot gear (anyone who's put significant time into WOW understands that high-end gear requires lots of skill and time to attain.)
So while your opening statement is generally accurate, your examples are a bit like Opposites Day.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You can of course but the problem is that a MMO for everyone needs equal amount of content for everyone and that content needs to be pretty massive. Well, that and you need mechanics that works for everyone as well which is pretty hard but not impossible.
Making a MMO for everyone that have 80% of it's content for casual open world players don't work even if it have been tried many time, all groups you make the game for deserves equal amount of the content.
It is far easier and cheaper to make a game for some players then everyone and then you can target the audience specifically with the mechanics, the lore and so on so I don't think you should try to make your game for everyone, not even Wow managed to get a majority of all types of players (like hardcore PvPers for example).
But saying something like that can't be done isn't right, it just not a good idea.
You can't make the one-for-all mmorpg, when what the crowd types want conflict with eachother:
instances or no instances
pvp or no pvp
grind or no grind
loss upon death or no loss upon death
Solo or not
If you try to put both options to come to a middle ground, I give you everything that is out today which most of us are unhappy with. Better to have a genre type in an mmorpg and keep the likes/dislikes separated between games to appease the crowd types. Then we can go back to "if you don't like it in this game, go play this game".
You could solve that with different server sets together with a lof of content for both soloers and groupers. But as I said before, not worth the work.
Comments
I can't really say much for TSW. Group puzzles and story telling is not my cup of tea in an mmo. I actually may play it some day, and I'll think of it as a good single player game.
BUT Elders Scrolls Online- Ha....This is how it plays out :
Up to level 3 the game plays for you with it's dialog, 4-10 you move across the screen from left to right or bottom to top as you gain levels. At level 10 your strong enough to run the entire zone and harvest.
Then the game will allow you to move on to the DESINAGATED 11-20 area to move from left to right every two more levels until your level 20, now you can again run the entire zone to harvest with out fear of dying.
A little added tip.....Do your personal story line every few levels to keep the story level at the proper character level. Because this is how developers have the game set up for you
Use the Dungeon finder to utilize the mega sever purpose of making the game an mmo so you can play along side other people. Cause don't forget, every time you turn your computer on you have a new set of strangers running around solo. The biggest kicker of all ?....You don't know who they are....NOOOOO name plates
Who is thatttttt !
One of the most on-rails mmos ever made. Developer controlled. Text book for forced content.
This is not the true Elders Scrolls way........It's not the mmo way....It's nothing, maybe some sort of hybrid something.
If you had stuck it out you would have seen the world expand out, e.g when you get to 50 your skills have expanded such that you can freely wander new zones in their entirety. Then there's WVW with its huge running battles with hundreds of players., the end game in ESO. Ironically rails are self imposed by many who have been conditioned by on rail games because that's what they have learned, Its blindingly obvious when an ex WOW/Rift player tries something different, they seek patterns that are ingrained in their skulls and in the same breath complain when they find it. Ask yourself, why did you not try to avoid going left to right or whatever it was you were doing, many others managed it. Did you wander freely? Did you experiment with builds to create defensive builds to allow you to tank higher levels etc? Ask yourself what stopped you from going straight to where you fancies going on the map instead of your zig zagging?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Maybe so, Maybe so after 50, but I made it to around 30 in this lonely game that's on rails up to 50. No bouncing around to other zones, your not allowed variety and with choices.
Damm, I'm about to catch hell for this but :
Vanilla WoW, you have the entire zone of Westfall for 10 levels, do anything you like there. If you absolutely hate Westfall, go to Loch Moden or Darkshore and do what ever you want
. Dungeons are many deep and lengthly, spend 10 whole levels in Dungeons !.......Again if your totally discussed, play a Horde !
If it just purly sucks play Vanguard or FF11 or EQ2 or even Darkfall if your a PVPer and love a strong grind to be competitive, I do have to say GW2 has some freedom, but it's just not for me. They will all give you freedom. I guess EVE is the same, play that.
But I challenge you to show me other more recent mmo's with choices.
I guess this is two questions :
1) I personally don't like puzzles in mmos, that's just me. BUT that aside, if your referring to the Secret World. That's story telling you how to play that takes away freedom and choices. Hay, maybe I'm even wrong about TSW. I haven't played it yet....So yes I may be guessing. But Youtubes tell me I'm not.
2) ESO is liner 100% ( however maybe not after 50 )
- You will move left to right when your in the so called instanced open world.
- When your DO make it all the way to the right, the left side is easy to harvest because your going back on rails and the content is easy. So now you can harvest.....Rails !
- YOU WILL DO your story line. If not you will pay a price if you very off the curse set for you.
Vanguard, Vanilla WoW, EQ2 FF11, GW2, and I think EvE. You have freedom of the entire area. And choices of several alternet zones to play, or Deep Dungeons that can be practlly lived in with many to pick from....Do what you like.
Weird.
This is where most MMO's fail today imo. WoW, when it was released, probably had in the area of 50-100 days of content. That's right, not hours, DAYS. There was so much stuff to do in WoW it was mind boggling. Today's MMO's are built like single player games, you power through the levels see the content and leave. Vanilla WoW was an adventure, you evolved your character over the course of months/years making friends, enemies, getting to know the people on your sever, tackling the fairly unforgiving world, that's right back in the day you could actually die lol. WoW was successful for me because it allowed me to play how I wanted to play. I love small group content, WoW's dungeons were perfect for me, I leveled my first character, a priest healer, almost entirely in dungeons. It took me 20 days of played time and I loved every minute of it. If you love doing quests you can do that and not touch any dungeons they'll keep you occupied for months and you'll still not even hit half the quests before you max level. If you love crafting and playing the auction house you can do that too. People love to hate on WoW and chalk it up to good advertising and such that led to it's success. They may be partially right but I believe word of mouth sold WoW, I know myself personally got at least 15-20 people to at least try it, with many continuing to play to this day. I can't say that about any other game that's released in the past 10 years.
WoW was my favorite game lots of great memories and friends but they've bastardized it to the point I can't even recognize it anymore. The over casualization and simply lack of compelling content is ruining MMO's today, everything is all about easy, fast, cheap, trying to make you into a special snowflake with achievements and world saving storylines, which quite frankly I could care less about. Leave that for single player games, give me back a world to get lost in and let me carve out a niche for myself and some close friends.
It is indeed a lot faster to run through the content today than 2004 but that honestly is something Wow started. Leveling up in games like Everquest or Meridian was something very different. In fact it was a tad slow which Wow fixed but it did go too far already at launch. Since then Wow and every other game have speeded the progress to a level where getting a max level toon is just a matter of days if you play a lot instead of months or in some cases years.
But I fail to see what this has to do with the thread, if a MMO should be made for everyone or one or a few types of specific players. Levelingspeed and amount of content have been discussed in many threads on this forum after all.
And I still say: Focus on one or a few groups of players. Make an easy open world game, a harder game focused on dungeons & raids or maybe something with mainly PvP but don't try to give us everything, it will just make the content so-so for everyone instead of awesome for the right players.
Even Wow put most of it's focus on casual open worlders nowadays, it is their largest group of players and most new content is made for them. Sure, there are some dungeons and raids, even a bit of PvP but content wise they aren't getting that much.
Man....Thank you so much. Your better than I
Variation is the key !.......WOW and a few other mmos had it
So much so, you never had to step foot in a Dungeon, ever.
- You had dungeon runners
- Raiders
- Solo's
- Auction experts.
- Stormwind hangers, talking crap
- The list can go on for ever !
I turned my much older friend on to World of Warcraft. He sucked at fighting anything. Why ? He wasn't interested. He loved the Auction, fishing and harvesting. That's all he talked about. I almost developed a nose bleed from his stories about his cash flow......Later on after years, he learned how to solo PVE and loved it
His Wife played different. She somehow found a woman's guild where they chatted all day, and at times did a few quest.
Me......Dungeons all the way, You can write a book on Maradon and The Sunken Temple and all it's little secrets !
FREEDOM !!!!
Variety worked for older MMORPG's because of the lack of competition. In today's market you have games filling one niche better than the systems in the "Everyman MMO". The players that enjoyed variety in those early games, like non-combat activities, farming, crafting, economy, or only do PvP, can now find a game that caters purely to their interests without all the stuff they don't like. MMORPG's COULD be made for everyone, but at a massive cost to develop varied systems with the depth that players looking for niche gaming enjoy. A studio could make 4 individual, focused niche games without the restrictions of making it work all in the same MMO game engine, and of course the rampant complaints from players that don't enjoy half of their game.
The foresight Blizzard had was to produce a wide variety of game styles without much overlap. People who played Diablo or StarCraft or Warcraft could also sub to WoW. It has built a core base of "Blizzard fans". It's not like you are unsubbing from one Blizzard MMO for another Blizzard MMO. Cancelling Titan was a good idea as releasing another big MMO would be seen like an improvement and only hurt WoW's profit and shift it to Titan.
In the secret world you actually get allot more choices in what side quests you do and etc, and the game opens up more as you go, there are harder areas for the better gear you have, but as far as having freedom in choices in games like eq is exactly the same certain zones had certain levels and areas you could level just like most mmorpgs, the difference is eq didnt have many quests and was mostly just based around fighting.
The only reason why you feel there where choices is because some older mmorpgs didnt have any story telling at all which gets boring for most gamers, in games like the secret world you get to make choices in the main story but the side stuff you do not get to choose but its very good regardless. Anywho the secret world has zones, and a few instances depending on your missions and group stuff.
The Secret World is on my list of games to play. But I'm playing a few non-mmo games until We get some quality back in mmos.
Played :
Witcher 3 ( Great )
Farcry 4 ( Great )
Dragon Age inquision ( Good )
Shadow of Mordor ( Best )
Playing :
Dungeon defenders 2 ( fun for now )
Soon will be :
Crysis 1
Ghost Recon Wildlands ( when it's released )
The Secret World ( maybe )
I feel, developers have total control over how players have to play.
Give them a personal story line, they have to do it.
Give them a Dungeon finder, everyone will use it, leaving server behind.
Give them a path to follow they will follow it.
I see what your saying about a friends list. Rift was impossible to play with others. NO ONE WAS EVER ON THE SAME CHAIN QUEST. I remember this kid followed me around for hours, We couldn't sync up.
Also, you level too fast to Keep friends !
It's hard to say, it's been so long since we had any freedom.
First of all NO vanilla Wow did not do it right,i lasted all but one day then scurried back to EQ2 for my linear questing and FFXI was still miles the better overall game.
Anyhow that is all opinions,this is an EASy one to reply to.
Instead of trying to cater to everyone,you give that choice in VARIOUS games instead of a various game.
Remember that old saying...jack of all trades master of none?Wel lso happens my fave mmorpg "FFXI" caters ONLY to PVE and grouping and that is how you build a better game.Then if you want a different game,so be it ,build a different game,but you CANNOT build a PVE PVP solo ,group,instance open world,zones etc etc,it ends up a mess.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
World of Warcraft was not your style, I could respect that. After the OP were discussion about that here.
However the POINT being. You can play as a :
- Open world fighter, helper of the weak
- Solo player
- Group expert
- Dungeon expert
- Raid expert
- Completely just play the auction, harvest and trade
- Hang out in Stormwind and talk trash if that's your thing
- Run a Guild
- And the list goes on.
This can be done in WoW, Vanguard ( if it were done right ), EvE, LOTRO( before it was butchered ) EQ2.
Can you do this in newer mmos ?.....Yes but, half assed. Other than the obvious first two on the list, can only do cheap attempts and at the others. Dungeons are built to be short 20 min fast runs, built for speed and with a LFG TOOL. Nothing to be expert at, no secrets, nothing to talk about after. Auctions have no real value to them other than buy the next stage boots if you couldn't find them naturally in open world liner.
Run a Guild, be in a Guild ?....What's the point, games are liner, no need for co-operation in anyway. For what little guilds are left with, the Looking-for-group-tools took care of that.
World of Warcraft was a World
Vanguard was a World
EQ1 and 2 was a World
EvE is a World
FF11 is a World
LOTRO was a World
Log in and do as you feel !
World of Warcraft is just the best example that everyone can relate to, I'm talking about Vanilla WoW not the butchered thing we have now. I don't blame you if you hate it, but back then you had other choices of WORLDS TO LIVE IN.
As long as a personal story is optional, people will play it or skip it. I play GW2, some guildies have completed the personal story, others just did the tutorial and nothing else.
As for dungeon finders, many people still prefer to play with their guilds or with people they learn to know while playing.
Chain quests do suck if you want players to play together though, always have.
The thing is that as long as something is optional you still have freedom. If you need to play through something to advance to the next zone or to unlock PvP or whatever things are different.
A good MMO shouldn't force you to do anything excepot maybe complete the tutorial with your first character.
As for the leveling speed, it isn't the real problem. The real problem is the huge powergap most MMOs have that means a lvl 15 and a lvl 25 character can't do anything meaningful together. That problem will be around no matter how fast or slow people level up. There are fixes though, some games allow you to change your level (even if you often get useless loot). Others like GW2 levels you down to the right level for any given area. A better lpowergap would still be far better than either of course.
MMOs can surely be far better at offering freedom to choose what content you want to play, but the problem isn't a new one.Even in the first game you couldn't be competetive in PvP from the start and many of them forced you to play certain content to open up new zones which is pretty uncommon today.
In a good MMO is all content optional and you choose to play the parts you like. There might be few games around like that but it have always been like that.
OP ought to explain what is the point of claiming that games "could and should be for everyone", because afaik games are for everyone, all one need to do is to try something new and different, so OP's title doesn't really make any sense.
You should probably educate yourself on basics like target market.
You could also argue that Braille books are "for everyone", but the reality is that they're an entertainment/education product designed for a specific niche, and not useful at all to those who can't read braille (which includes the vast majority of those of us who aren't blind.)
Games are the same way (just not as extreme.) Each appeals to a certain subset of players.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Now instead put in a publisher that specialises in Braille books and target blind customers specifically and therefore have revenue targets that reflect this market and the rest is obvious.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Right, and they wouldn't try to tackle giant projects that were far above and beyond the known demand for braille books.
Just like how videogame publishers avoid tackling niche MMOs when they could do niche non-MMOs instead (ie smaller projects which are better suited to the demand for that type of game.) Sometimes, like int he case of sandbox games, the experience is better-suited to a non-MMO from a design perspective (since the experience revolves around letting you be master of the world with complete control, and that fundamentally becomes less possible the more players you involve in the experience.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You can of course but the problem is that a MMO for everyone needs equal amount of content for everyone and that content needs to be pretty massive. Well, that and you need mechanics that works for everyone as well which is pretty hard but not impossible.
Making a MMO for everyone that have 80% of it's content for casual open world players don't work even if it have been tried many time, all groups you make the game for deserves equal amount of the content.
It is far easier and cheaper to make a game for some players then everyone and then you can target the audience specifically with the mechanics, the lore and so on so I don't think you should try to make your game for everyone, not even Wow managed to get a majority of all types of players (like hardcore PvPers for example).
But saying something like that can't be done isn't right, it just not a good idea.
Many players do have things they can add to the sandbox experience as well though. Building things together with other players for example is actually very fun.
The problem with most sandboxes is that they look far too much on UO instead of thinking for themselves and try out new ideas the players can build things together. Eve got this right and did something rather different from the rest small sandbox games with full loot and free for all PvP around, a model that worked in UO but never amounted anything since.
Stuff like making a large group of players building a fortified town together is very rewarding in itself and sandboxes should focus more on stuff like that and less on robbing noobs of their tiny belongings which is only fun for a rather small group of players that tend to become rather alone in an empty game after a while.
The real problem is frankly that the focus in single player sandboxes tend to be about you building stuff while the MMO sandboxes focus on you tearing things down which tend to be far less popular. I am not saying sandbox MMOs need to be about happy deers kissing fairies or some care bear stuff but the main point still should be creating stuff together instead of just being about tearing others S#¤%& down.
It is true that it is more expensive to make a MMO sandbox then a single player sandbox, but the rewards are greater as well if you get it right. Eve got it right, SWG was on the right track but botched it up during the way.
I think someone will do it far better in the future, long term is empire building generally more fun than scripted games. They just need to think outside the box (yeah, bad pun).
Let's be careful about calling L2 "too hard". Gamers didn't like L2 because it was timesink-intensive (poor fun and little content per hour spent.) PVPers didn't like L2 because it was casual PVP (PVP significantly impacted by non-skill factors lke gear and population.) In neither case was it "too hard". It was too empty (timesinks) or too casual (world PVP).
Similarly, we've already covered in the other thread (rather objectively) how while casuals can do a lot of things in WOW the upper tiers of play were some of the deepest gameplay found in MMORPGs. Surely you don't think every player in WOW is decked out in best-in-slot gear (anyone who's put significant time into WOW understands that high-end gear requires lots of skill and time to attain.)
So while your opening statement is generally accurate, your examples are a bit like Opposites Day.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You could solve that with different server sets together with a lof of content for both soloers and groupers. But as I said before, not worth the work.